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  1. songdavid98 is offline
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    #1

    Difference between a 2100 and a professional?

    I'm referring the USATT ratings. If you want to extend this to other countries, I'm asking for the difference between people who have solid fundamentals and professionals.

    The obvious 400 point difference means better everything obviously.
    So better footwork, attacks, and services are kind of obvious.

    What I'm looking for in this thread is what you've seen to be the most important factor that allows 2500+ players to easily overpower and defeat 2100-2200 players.

    From what I've seen, when these pros play against the 2100 players, the 2100 players are usually overwhelmed by serves and attacks. But today, I've seen a 2600 player beat a 2100 player by just serving short underspin and blocking and lobbing.

    What I'm guessing the difference to be is the ability to handle/attack service and the ability to handle attacks well, whether they block, counter, or chop. But I believe it is mostly the ability to handle attacks.

    What do you guys think?

    P.S. I happen to be really bad at handling attacks in a match(well, at least a lot worse than I'd like to be). It's the main reason why I've worked so hard on my serve and attack game. I'm beginning to think that is why I'm stuck at my level.

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    Last edited by songdavid98; 05-01-2016 at 03:32 AM.

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    #2
    Quote Originally Posted by songdavid98
    What I'm guessing the difference to be is the ability to handle/attack service and the ability to handle attacks well, whether they block, counter, or chop. But I believe it is mostly the ability to handle attacks.
    Rephrasing above, a 2600 player "reads the game" better.

    I happen to be really bad at handling attacks. I'm beginning to think that is why I'm stuck at my level.
    It comes with time if you practice it.

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    #3
    In my point of view the differences are notables in serves but mainly the return of a serve. Also, the amount of good quality shots that a player can hold. For example a 2100 might be able to look real fast twice a ball that the 2600 does every time.
    Leaving aside experience that is.
    With strategy it seems that a 2100 shot is not able to be aggressive enough for a 2600 player to gain control over the point so most of the game is controlled and handled by the better player.


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  4. Der_Echte is offline
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    #4
    Pros are 2800+ some are 2900+. At levels above 2500, each 50 points is almost a level. We are talking at ten levels of bad-azz difference between a pro and a good 2100 level player.

    The forum has one way or another accepted that Dan's likely playing level is 2400ish.

    Look no further than any of the vids Dan has posted messing around with pros who are messing around. The vids speak for themselves.

    If there is such a huge difference between a 2400ish guy getting murdered with easy by a pro appearing to not try very hard, imagine what the same pro would to a 2100 level player... Heck, a 2400ish guy can easily defeat a 2100 in a number of ways.

    This ought to make it a bit clearer to those on the forum not knowing USATT levels.

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  5. Der_Echte is offline
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    #5
    In Korean Amature TT, a 2100 is Div 1 City material, most of the time such a player is the best player in the entire club. not always, but often. Some top Div 1 City players are 2200-2300. That is about the best you see within 10 clubs. There are some rare 2400 level players, who would win Div national tourneys and be rated Div ZERO or MINUS ONE City.

    There area some even rarer 2450-2500 level players who play Champions League (those who win Div 1 natl level tourneys.

    The professionally trained athletes who have been trained by ex-pros hired by the schools and have been training since grade school and who are now adults, can only play in the Seon-Soo Boo, or ATHLETE Division. These players are a step below a semi-pro and are strictly kept out of Amature TT in this exclusive division.

    Those top TT athletes who were pro-style trained and didn't quite make it to pro level play for a city team and are around 2650ish in level.

    The lower echelon of the Korean Pro league is 2700-2750 and the top end are ITTF WR Top Ten.

    EDIT: A Div 1 City player (think 2000-2100 USATT level) would get a 4 point handicap from a Champions League player and a SEVEN point handicap (The absolute MAX allowed) vs a pro within WR 30 or better.

    So, another way to look at it is a 2100 level player would be expected to score only 3 points or so on average vs a pro. That is a serious gulf in class.

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    Last edited by Der_Echte; 05-01-2016 at 06:05 AM.
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  6. jedimasterplk is offline
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Pros are 2800+ some are 2900+. At levels above 2500, each 50 points is almost a level. We are talking at ten levels of bad-azz difference between a pro and a good 2100 level player.

    The forum has one way or another accepted that Dan's likely playing level is 2400ish.

    Look no further than any of the vids Dan has posted messing around with pros who are messing around. The vids speak for themselves.

    If there is such a huge difference between a 2400ish guy getting murdered with easy by a pro appearing to not try very hard, imagine what the same pro would to a 2100 level player... Heck, a 2400ish guy can easily defeat a 2100 in a number of ways.

    This ought to make it a bit clearer to those on the forum not knowing USATT levels.

    Not sure about the 'acceptance' that Dan is 2400ish. Not that it really matters of course, but Dan is not 2400, if my understanding of USATT ratings are correct. You have watched Dan play in equipment testing scenarios with a friend of his, and I know lots of players ranked 2100/2200 USATT who would look better than Dan in those conditions. True ratings are judged by match play scenarios - and I watched Dan play the 12 year old Chinese 'kid' - and he certainly did not play like 2400 in a more unfamiliar, match type scenario.

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    #7




    fang bo is top 10 in the world.
    the americans are probably 2500 or 2400

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    Last edited by kukamonga; 05-01-2016 at 04:05 PM.

  8. Baal is offline
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    #8
    This is going to sound obvious but I have to say it anyway.

    Everything is different. USATT ratings are not linear scales really, so the difference between 2600 and 2100 is greater than the difference between 2100 and 1600. There is no one single aspect in which a 2600 player is better than 2100, generally EVERYTHING is better. Not just a little bit better. Vastly better. From personal experiences, many times, I can give the perfect answer to this, being around 2100 myself these days, and having had an ususual number of opportunities to play with people in the 2600 range -- most recently yesterday.

    Some of the more obvious things are serves and returns of serves like you noticed, but the 2600 player moves better, sees the trajectory of the ball far earlier, can read all sorts of spin earlier and far more accurately. One thing I notice when I play guys like that (which I am fortunate to get to do reasonably often) is that my best shots seem telegraphed to 2600 players, and even if they are not, those guys just see so early where the ball is going that it seems like they are rarely pressured by what I do. They sort of seem to move in slow motion and they are still waiting for the ball to get there. Even when you hit a really good shot, they just sort of relax and just bring it back more or less optimally. Occasionally the 2100 player can string enough of those really good shots to win the point and typically the 2600 player finds that quite hilarious, has a good laugh, and then ups their level just a bit and runs of 4-6 points in a row with now effort before the 2100 player is able to string together enough good shots to amuse the 2600 player again.

    When I play 2600 players even simple stuff gets hard. That simple forehand counter that looks so innocent on video? The warmup at the beginning of a match? The part where they step back and hit some loops and you are just going to block it back like you are some sort of pro yourself? Well that simple loop they hit seems to have unusual force. Lots of spin, it is hard to describe but just warming up with these guys for the first minute or so you can't keep the ball on the table. It is almost embarrassing and you sort of wonder what is wrong. You really have to concentrate on keeping to the top of the ball. In minute or two you adjust, but there is a "holy crap!" sensation you get. And then when you actually get to playing live, they are varying the speed, and spin, and timing in subtle ways that just make you look stupid -- even when they are not trying to do it!

    2600 players rarely make simple mistiming errors, and they rarely overplay a ball. Of course they can rip with freakish power, but it is surprising how often they are not playing with a vast amount of power. (Remember, guys like Ma Long are another ten levels greater still). And, yes I once saw Eric Owens, about 2600 at the time, beat a 2250 guy at my club without ever hitting an aggressive shot. He was just messing with the guy. All he did was push and block. He used to do it to me too, just to try to teach me to not overplay balls (I was around 2100 at the time). Not long after that he went to play at the WTTC, he was on the US team around this time, and he was utterly annihilated in a preliminary round, because at an international level 2600 is nothing. (I think Eric was somewhere around 400 in the world around then BUT he was above 2650, nearly 2700, at that time).

    Because they see the ball early in the trajectory, they have lots of time to see what YOU are doing in their peripheral vision and they can play a ball in a place that causes maximum discomfort even if it is a low velocity push. If you are off balance even a little bit, you will feel much more off balance after the shot they play? They make you feel like you are standing on ice.

    I could go on and on about this. They are better at everything.

    I can give another example. I have serves that are very far above the level of the rest of my game. Though I say it myself, my serves are quite deceptive, good placement, and I understand how to use them effectively. I practice them A LOT. Until recently, I used to hit with Jim Butler about once a month. I could often trick him into poor returns or misses on one or rarely two of my serves. The thing is, I could mostly only do it once. Next time I tried the same trick, well it wasn't a trick anymore. More typically though, my very best serves were not even tricky to him even once. His serves though against me? Mind boggling. (By the way, I owe a lot of my serve effectiveness to coaching from guys like this). And they seem to have good memories of what just happened so they are not tricked again.

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    #9
    One thing 2100 players will notice when they play 2600 is that at the end, the 2600 guy is barely sweating. Lots of people have commented on this, it is almost a cliche? Why? Because they never have to move fast. Because they see everything much earlier, like I said they seem to move in slow motion and are still kind of waiting for the ball to get there. Even when the 2100 player hits a very strong ball. On rare occasions when the points end up fast, well now you are just sort of approaching the normal ball pace for those guys. The 2600 players easily sustains it, the 2100 player cannot.

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  10. Der_Echte is offline
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    #10
    Edit to insert quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke Sky Walker
    Not sure about the 'acceptance' that Dan is 2400ish. Not that it really matters of course, but Dan is not 2400, if my understanding of USATT ratings are correct. You have watched Dan play in equipment testing scenarios with a friend of his, and I know lots of players ranked 2100/2200 USATT who would look better than Dan in those conditions. True ratings are judged by match play scenarios - and I watched Dan play the 12 year old Chinese 'kid' - and he certainly did not play like 2400 in a more unfamiliar, match type scenario.
    In the recent thread attempting to estimate Dan's USATT level, I pretty much stated as so. There are indeed many 2100 USATT level players with practice strokes looking every bit as impressive. I had said it was likely somewhere between 2200 and 2500 and that when he was fit 2600ish, That is a wide range, i simply have not watched him play matches vs the 2300, 2400, and 2500s crowds, so I wont know.

    MaTT, who is is a good position as a pro coach, made his evaluation and stated that this has already been vetted before.

    Still, like you said, the important points are not that Dan is such and such, but rather that this level and that level are such and such related to each other.

    I used Dan as an example to show the stark contrast of what is so different in class at each level.

    As for 12 yr old kids, there are some who are already 2500 in USA, which would stand very favorable odds of defeating Dan, then think how many pro trained Chinese kids are at or above that level? Entirely possible for a well trained 12 yr old to kick Dan's tail. This is Table Tennis. This is SPARTA !!!

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by kukamonga




    fang bo is top 10 in the world.
    the americans are probably 2500 or 2400
    another one



    wally grin is I think around 2500.
    liang is chinese national team.

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    #12
    Wally played well though - and certainly did not embarrass himself.

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    #13
    Not that it matters but Fang Bo wasn't in top 100 at the time and Liang Jingkun was out of top 200.

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    #14
    and there's more!!!!
    2500 vs 21 ittf ranking


  15. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #15
    Amazing how much skill it takes to get to top 20 level.


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  16. pgpg is offline
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Amazing how much skill it takes to get to top 20 level.


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    True in every profession... 7+ billion people, you know.

    I remember similar thread on another forum, where one of the users (heavyspin) related his experience playing Hidetoshi Oya (sp?) at US Open. The way he described it, IIRC: "most of my game was taken away from me".

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    #17
    Quadri Aruna, who is in the world top 30, played Chuan Chi Yuan, who has been perennially in the world top 10 (well over a decade). After the match, Aruna said that CCY didn't let him play, that CCY brought his own ball it seemed (Aruna was speaking metaphorically).

    The LA Open final between CCY and Eugene Wang was a joke. Eugene can make most players look like idiots. There are gaps in levels everywhere.

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  18. Tinykin is offline
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    #18
    The main difference is that a 2600 player is a dedicated TT player. An established 2100 player is probably someone who plays TT as a pastime in priority as, job>family>hobbies/sports>TT.
    At least that's the priority list of most players, I think.

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by kukamonga
    and there's more!!!!
    2500 vs 21 ittf ranking

    Funny that you should mention Crisan. He's the most unlikely looking top WR30 player you'll ever come across. Stories about his practice habits, especially as a youth player, are legendary. Basically he hardly did any. His footwork is not one to copy. His stroke appears amateurish. Yet outside the top WR10 he is one of the hardest players to beat. Ask Timo Boll.
    Also CCY stayed in the WR10 for a long time, having only Crisan (as a high quality practice partner) to practice with. While the CNT players had the...CNT. Shows how naturally talented CCY was.

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykin
    Funny that you should mention Crisan. He's the most unlikely looking top WR30 player you'll ever come across. Stories about his practice habits, especially as a youth player, are legendary. Basically he hardly did any. His footwork is not one to copy. His stroke appears amateurish. Yet outside the top WR10 he is one of the hardest players to beat. Ask Timo Boll.
    Also CCY stayed in the WR10 for a long time, having only Crisan (as a high quality practice partner) to practice with. While the CNT players had the...CNT. Shows how naturally talented CCY was.
    I saw the comments in the video and they mention something similar....
    like "that's the way he plays" "that's the way he beats timo boll" and so on.

    That's the way he plays against brian pace.
    You think he would just push and lob against timo boll?
    You think he would not flex his legs against timo boll?

    Watch the videos of fang bo before.
    He does the same thing.
    Doesn't flex his legs, barely attacks.
    That's the way they play people who are many levels below them that's all.

    Here's a recent video of crisan getting beat up pretty badly.
    Still, you can see he tries pretty hard and tries to loop/counterloop whenever he can.

    Last edited by kukamonga; 05-02-2016 at 12:06 PM.

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