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  1. TableTennisDaily is offline
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    #1

    Fault serves at WTTTC 2012

    Okay, so here is a big game here, last 16 at the World Team Table Tennis Championships. However during this match as seen below between Robert Gardos and Bartosz Such the umpire pulled up many serves to the point where everyone was angry! Video below of the match

    Even the commentators were sceptical on the decisions made by the umpire. What are your thoughts, are all these rules that the umpires are taught killing the game?



    Video below

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    #2
    Very dumb to do that. In this match, Gardos was winning anyway, but imagine it happening in a close exciting match. Those players work long time for a tournament like this, and then they get their serve faulted by an umpire who doesn't really know what's going on. On the other side though, it might not have been too hard for Barthosz to slightly change his service to the satisfaction of the umpire. I don't think it would harm the quality much. But it is sad that this happens.

    On another note: many service errors are played as well this WTTTC. Prause suggested that maybe it had to do with the air conditioning or something like that. Fact is that many players make more service errors than usual.

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    #3
    It looked very odd did the decision as I couldn't see what the problem was, the only thing it sounded like was the problem from the umpire was that the ball was being thrown back onto the bat to help with spin. However, due to the camera angles we couldn't see this. Also, it looked like the referee told him to rethink as the match looked completely different in the 3rd game. However, credit to Bartosz Such for shaking the umpires hand after it, that deserves respect.
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    #4
    Completely destroyed any spectator value in watching the match in my opinion. It was frustrating. Yes uphold the rules, but I think far too particular in this match
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    #5
    What did Gardos say about Wang Liqin?

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    #6
    The same ump just warned Ma Lin and faulted Robert Gardos in their match
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    #7
    I think we need something like this, "Introduction to Toss Ping Pong Ball During a Serve Handbook"

    Then in the content we got different way to get over the call >.>

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    #8
    Ridiculous, the rules (2.06.02) 'near vertically upward,' no spin, at least 16cm... that ball moved maybe 4 or 5 cm into the body, and maybe 35-45 cm up... I'd certainly call that nearly up.

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    #9
    typicall... load of tosh.... nothing wrong at all...happend in 77 in the final to guo when no one had faulted him over 10 days.
    happened in 89 dortmund in team final, jiang faulted v waldner, jiang told the umpires to sod off and would not carry on until they were changed.. brilliant... on the replays, there was nothing wrong with jiangs serve..They should do this in the final and get some cracking publicity,,,maybe fault boll v ma long,, crowd would go mental,, imagine the press... do it for the first few points then ,, get on with it,,,,..

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    #10
    That is just pathetic. Hidden serves, okay. But as Gardos said it is almost impossible to hit the ball with much spin when you throw it straight upwards. I didn't find Such's services illegal and for me it's destruction of our beloved sport.

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    #11
    First of all, all talk of it being "almost impossible" to hit the ball with a lot of spin when it's thrown straight up is... in my opinion... mere bull****. Would you please elaborate on that? Do you have any evidence?

    Secondly, yes, this service was more legal than a lot of other serves people are using. However, why the hell didn't he change the serve when he saw that he was being called? The service rule is in fact very subjective. Did the player only have one service in his repertoire?

    With that said, I think the umpires should call a LOT more faults and warnings on doubtful serves than they do. People get away with almost everything. The sport would be a lot better and more entertaining if we didn't have all these illegal serves. Almost all players try to push the limits of the rules. And almost all umpires don't give a damn, even though they should. Many serves are being allowed, even though the throw is nowhere "near vertical" and the ball is hidden by the body at some point of its trayectory, or, and this may be the worst one, the player doesn't remove his arm right after throwing the ball up in the air. All the while, there are a lot of players who serve perfectly legal and still are able to fool opponents etc with their serve, look at Timo Boll for instance.

    And yes, it's the responsibility of the umpire. It's sad that legit players have to put up with this. And they don't complain, because "everyone does it" and they don't want bad blood between them and their opponent.

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    #12
    If a soccer referee penalized for every little infraction, there would be rioting!
    This is absurd! He was lucky to get a handshake, instead of a punch in the face from the players.

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bollforte94
    What did Gardos say about Wang Liqin?
    He was probably pointing out the valid point that Wang Liqin's arm often covers the serve, and he never gets faulted.
    This umpire better not be doing the final.

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by harrybelafonte
    typicall... load of tosh.... nothing wrong at all...happend in 77 in the final to guo when no one had faulted him over 10 days.
    happened in 89 dortmund in team final, jiang faulted v waldner, jiang told the umpires to sod off and would not carry on until they were changed.. brilliant... on the replays, there was nothing wrong with jiangs serve..
    Hey, do you have the video of that '89 match, or know where it can be found?

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by WiWa
    Very dumb to do that. In this match, Gardos was winning anyway, but imagine it happening in a close exciting match. Those players work long time for a tournament like this, and then they get their serve faulted by an umpire who doesn't really know what's going on. On the other side though, it might not have been too hard for Barthosz to slightly change his service to the satisfaction of the umpire. I don't think it would harm the quality much. But it is sad that this happens.

    On another note: many service errors are played as well this WTTTC. Prause suggested that maybe it had to do with the air conditioning or something like that. Fact is that many players make more service errors than usual.


    The service of Gardos are not illegal compared to other services made... Many players are worse, some are better But I think all this service stuff is annoying.. As long as I can se the ball go up and down, I don't complain. And I do play a lot of competitions.. One cannot judge away so many serves when all of them are the same! This ref just doesn't get it!! : ((
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  16. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by rooklynbounce
    All the while, there are a lot of players who serve perfectly legal and still are able to fool opponents etc with their serve, look at Timo Boll for instance.
    At some point someone put a video on of that showed Timo Boll starting his serve with the ball over the table and not behind the end line. Since then I have been looking and I have seen a lot of times, with different camera angles where Timo is starting his serve with the ball over the table, not behind it. I don't think he is getting any advantage from it, but even Timo's serves are a little bit against the rules.

    On the other hand, I think the post you made:

    Quote Originally Posted by rooklynbounce
    First of all, all talk of it being "almost impossible" to hit the ball with a lot of spin when it's thrown straight up is... in my opinion... mere bull****. Would you please elaborate on that? Do you have any evidence?

    Secondly, yes, this service was more legal than a lot of other serves people are using. However, why the hell didn't he change the serve when he saw that he was being called? The service rule is in fact very subjective. Did the player only have one service in his repertoire?

    With that said, I think the umpires should call a LOT more faults and warnings on doubtful serves than they do. People get away with almost everything. The sport would be a lot better and more entertaining if we didn't have all these illegal serves. Almost all players try to push the limits of the rules. And almost all umpires don't give a damn, even though they should. Many serves are being allowed, even though the throw is nowhere "near vertical" and the ball is hidden by the body at some point of its trayectory, or, and this may be the worst one, the player doesn't remove his arm right after throwing the ball up in the air. All the while, there are a lot of players who serve perfectly legal and still are able to fool opponents etc with their serve, look at Timo Boll for instance.

    And yes, it's the responsibility of the umpire. It's sad that legit players have to put up with this. And they don't complain, because "everyone does it" and they don't want bad blood between them and their opponent.
    is a great post and I agree with all of what you are saying.
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  17. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #17
    The balance is between getting people to serve legally or closer to it, and letting the guys play the game if the serves are not affecting play.

    This umpire clearly disrupted a match that could have been more fun to watch without him there. The whole issue is that, he could have made his point and then let them play, but he did not really let them play. So the match is tainted and nobody had fun watching it.
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    #18
    The serve might have swayed inwards by a few centimetres, but it looked much worse coz Bartosz was leaning forward so much. Leaning forward is not a fault, but the umpire failed to see the difference between those two.

    I think somebody need to do a slomo from the side showing and marking the starting point of the throw and the point of the contact made.

    For me personally, the rule stated vertical and 16cm upwards, I would just stick to it. Even if a thousand TT player threw the ball the ball inwards or less than 16cm, and got away with it, it will not make it right for me. The rule stated so and so, I would just make sure I stick to it. I will not complain to the umpire if my opponents do them, but I will certainly not do it. I still get very decent serve by following the rules
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    #19
    I agree that more services that are clearly not following regulations should be called, but this service was completely legal. A clear definition of "nearly vertical" would mean that the vertical height of the ball must be more than the horizontal drift from the toss. Both players achieved this and were removing their arms from the opponents view thus making their service legal. This umpire just simply had a poor understanding of the definition. While subjective yes, a referee should have been called and then a swapping of umpires if this was such a problem. After the first 5 faults I would have called the ref and then asked for the head umpire to be replaced.

    At earlier comments the announcers had said that an assistant umpire (not from the match) came to speak with the umpire possibly passing on a remark from the referee or another umpire. Such had some class though at the end shaking the hand of the umpire and also playing for the crowd.

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    #20
    worst umpiring display ive ever seen....some of those calls on the serves were appalling...made it practically pointless for such to even attempt to win!

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