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  1. Der_Echte is offline
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    #1

    Re-Building the BEAST

    Hey everyone, since my last chat with Carl on a thread we drifted off and ended up hijacking, we discussed that thread's OP's Stiga Allround Evolution.

    I thought about how to make it more offensive minded. Outside of making MYSELF more offensive minded, I decided to go in the only direction remaining...

    Make it HEAVY !!!

    and make it heavy I did.

    I took a few steps, took my time, and it all took ONE HOUR to do.

    1- I removed both rubbers and applied a thin coat of polyurethane wood sealer since I forgot last time.


    2- I SLOWLY used an artist's putty knife to go down the top handle and remove it

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    3- I examined the result and YOU, Carl waz right, 100x moar hollow than a President's moral gas tank. Blade weighed 85 ish grams.

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    4 - I filled in all the hollow space with a thick bolt, a nut, and a ton of .2 gram nails in BOTH the hollowed blade and handle - no pics sorry

    5 - Weighed each rubber 48 and 50 grams

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    6- I weighed the bat without grip tape - 117 grams - THAT is BETTER

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    7 - I put on grip tape and bumped up the weight of the blade to around 120 grams

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    8 - Put on rubbers and overall weight 218+ grams! Hard to see with the light but it topped out at 218+ Gs

    EDIT, Pic on next post

    I took a couple of swings and MAN this blade is suddenly SOLID! Gunna try it out today with the rec crowd.

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  2. Der_Echte is offline
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    #2
    The pic I failed to correctly post...

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    Last edited by Der_Echte; 11-03-2014 at 07:53 PM.
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  3. Der_Echte is offline
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    #3
    There were zero players at rec center today, but practice loops using a backspin ball rolling back to you on your side and the bounce ball on ground a meter behind table yield a really satisfying solid feel at impact. too bad I couldn't try it out vs a drive to my FH...
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    #4
    Great work! I would love to try that blade haha!

  5. Der_Echte is offline
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    #5
    It'l cost you a whopping 30 Euros and 1 Euro worth of supplies...

    Allround Evolution is one of those great inexpensive blades.

    All in All, I improved the weight and low balanace by a NNNNIIIIIICCCCCEEEE NICE 35 grams !!!

    Let's see... that would be a 7/17th increase, so lets say around a 40% bump-up in weight and OUTSTANDING improvement in weight balance and impact feel.

    Even against very weak balls ( I had to make a backspin and return the ball to me on my side and let it cross endline) the feel of the impact is where I like it - SOLID !!
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  6. KM1976 is offline
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    #6
    May I please ask you a question? As I see it, weight of the setup is of course, personal preference, but as I see it, lighter setup might favor quicker recovery. With a heavier setup, it is difficult to hit repetitive topspins without getting worn out quickly. Please let me know what you think.

    Thank you, KM1976
    Most of the times practice, patience and an observant mind answers all your questions

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    #7
    KM1976, you bring up a very good question that needs to addressed honestly by each player individually.

    Some people have a really weak wrist and cannot cope with even 170 grams. If they like that, more power to them. For me, there are very few setups weighing in the 180s range I like. 200 grams plus is my sweet spot.

    I make a short answer: No, it will not materially affect me in the situation I need recovery the most: a loopdrive 80% power shot.

    Look at it this way. You are doing a FH drive or a FH loopdrive. You are parked at the table and need to recover fast, so you can hit the next ball.

    Let's look at a few things.

    1) If the swing is too big, it doesn't matter, a fast block away from you will end the point no matter what. I specifically entice opponents to attack like that at the table to do this to them and make them wary attacking all out. Even if you know he is blocking down your FH line and you are at the BH corner stepping around to make a loopkill, a block is going to get you. If you take off some pace and shorten the stroke, you can get back to that ball. However, you were stepping around to finish the point, NOT make a pressure shot. you could have used a BH loop for that and maintained position a lot better. I use my BH, so it's OK.

    2) If you do a good hard impact with a compact stroke, are you really recovering with the wrist only and the extra 30 grams gunna be a big factor here? Yes, if all you use is your wrist, then maybe. OK, maybe if all you do is use your arm to recover, then maybe. If I am over the table and use mostly my lower arm to make a strong shot, I am likely going to make a winner or at least be going for a winner and a good block is going to get by me even if I am holding a GOOSE FEATHER.

    3) When you do a compact stroke and are on balance when you impact the ball and do not overpower the ball with upper body, what parts of the body are making you recover??? Answer is your whole body. Legs, waist, ABS play a big role in decelerating your body right after impact, the muscles controlling your shoulder twist, your upper and lower arm all work together.

    Look folks, the bat is only 30 grams heavier. You got a 210 pound dude doing this shot and using all his body to recover. 30 grams isn't gunna make much a difference in this situation. heck, the 2 beers or the extra enchilada you ate will add more weight to you and make you slower to recover than the weight I added to that bat!!

    OK, the weight is being held away from your body and it takes some more torque to recoil back into position. I get that. Maybe bat distance from center of rotation is 2 feet and the extra weight is .125 lbs. This doesn't add up to a whole lot of foot pounds and I know I got some serious torque working for me already.

    The other thing I got with this setup is feel at impact. Try it out for yourself. get an 896 or other inexpensive blade with a hollow handle ad make the same mod I did, even with only 10-12 grams and see how it works for YOU. I already did this and had Carl try a lot of them out. 2-3 of the 896, one of the W6, and one of the Genote O. EVERY one of these blades had a nice, solid feel at impact and a clear improvement in feel and playability over the stock versions of the blade. Carl knows with the 896 since he has TWO of those blades unmodified in stock version.

    One thing about weight that is important is BALANCE. This makes the balance go LOWER, which is where I WANT it. I cannot play with a head heavy blade, to me it feels wrong and "weird".

    Another seemingly secret thing in TT is that many pro players take special pains to find the absolute heaviest blade of the model they can get their paws on. They get a lighter version and after a hit or two, they know the difference, because the ball will not go out so well as the true heavy ones. I was in Nexy HQ test room when president Moon handed Kim Jung Hoon a few different test versions of the same Peter Pan blade. Right away he could tell which bat was heavier and better. Didn't even take him one minute to know.

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  8. Der_Echte is offline
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    #8
    KM, about getting worn out quickly, I think anyone hitting a LOT of balls over the table (or parked next to it) using mostly lower arm (that is all there is time to use that close in a fast rally) hinging on elbow... That uses only a small group of muscles that are stabilized by the stance. Doing rapid fire bang bang using those small muscle with even just the weight of your arm alone will wear you out pretty quick.

    That is a good point about getting tired. I would say yes, playing close to the table without special training will wear out even the HULK himself.

    You really got to practice doing that a lot to develop the fitness to cope with that. Why? There are not a lot of large muscles to help you recover. Yes, you got your small step to initiate the kinetic energy / weight transfer, but then you got to get everything in revers pronto and there simply are not a lot of large muscles to reset you. That limits how much "hot sauce" and length of arm swing and pace you can apply and still keep up the fight realistically.

    It really isn't the weight of the bat, so much, it is the specific fitness. Yes, a heavier bat will wear anyone out quicker in this situation, but anyone who does not have a tom of specially trained fitness for this will tire pretty quickly doing that.

    Myself, I do NOT prefer parking at the table and going BANG-BANG Fh to Fh fast hit back and forth requiring a high speed slo-motion camera to catch it all till you drop king of rally that women (and Koreans) seem to prefer. I do not do that. Maybe, if I am over the table for a FH flick with some pace, sure. Maybe if I am at the table and a ball comes a bit high, but not enough time for a more open body, sure, I use the lower arm and put on the hot sauce for ONE shot.

    I simply do not do the Fh flat shot close to table enough for that to be a factor with me.

    Now BH to BH, I can bang it all day and not tire. Why? the stroke is a very short one supported by a little body move to start it (with support of stance) Such a short stroke for 10-20 hits isn't gunna slow me down even if I am hold the weight of 2 beers and a large enchilada with such a short stroke for 10-20 reps at fast speed.

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  9. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #9
    I am going to say something about weight in the handle.

    First I am going to give a test. Standing upright fold forward as close to half way down so that your legs are still vertical and your torso is as close to parallel to the ground as you can get. Now reach your arms back towards your butt so the arms are parallel to your torso, next reach your arms out to the sides (perpendicular to your body) so your arms form a T shape and your arms are still parallel to the ground, one more, now reach your arms away from butt with your arms still parallel to the ground. Notice which one makes your arms feel heaviest. But your arms weigh the same regardless of which position.



    That photo is the last version I was describing. Why do your arms feel so much heavier when you do this than when you reach out or back instead????

    Because you have to work to hold the weight that is farther away from your center of gravity, you need more force to hold the weight because it is farther from the center of gravity, whereas, you do not need a 10th as much force to hold the weight when the weight is distributed around the center of gravity (arms reaching back) or a 3rd the force when your arms are significantly closer to your center of gravity (arms reaching out instead of forward).

    So, if you have two blade that are both 85 grams and one is handle heavy and one is very light in the handle (so, head heavy) the one that is head heavy will feel significantly heavier. The head heavy blade will actually affect your bat speed and reset more than the handle heavy heavy blade of the same weight. One more thing: if you take an 85 gram blade and add 15 grams of weight to the handle, it actually won't feel any heavier or a barely noticeable amount heavier in terms of stroke, bat speed and reset, because the weight has been added to the part of the racket that is in your hand. The head has remained the same weight. So from the standpoint of swinging the bat, it will feel almost the same, it might feel like you can get more whipping action from the blade in your stroke. In fact, the 15 grams, the part that is in your hand, may make the bat feel a little lighter because, now, the head is lighter in relationship to the handle.

    So, I have 2 896 blades that have not been messed with. I tried 3 of Der_Ecthe's modified 896 blades. They all had weight added to the handle. They all felt like a noticeably better quality blade than either of my 896s. None of them felt heavier than my 896s but I could feel much more whipping action, inertia behind the stroke and the blades felt more solid. When I was looping, they all felt LIGHTER than my 896 blades, ALL OF the modified blades felt lighter than the unmodified ones.

    I hope the info I put in helps people understand why adding to the handle weight might not affect the reset. The weight in the blade face that you are moving is still the same weight. The weight in the handle basically makes the blade feel and respond more solidly. But it does not make it feel heavier because the blade face is the same weight.

    So, why do blade companies like making hollow handled, head heavy blades? Why do they tell us that they are better for offensive output? I don't really know. But I do know that they can tell you the blade is 85 grams--because the handle is hollow--even though they have not changed the weight of the blade face. So you think you have an 85 gram blade and then you play with it and think, "why does this feel so heavy if it is only 85 grams. And then you add a little weight to the handle and it is heavier but it does not really feel heavier. Just more solid and like the balance is better.

    So, again, a blade that is 85 grams with the weight balanced in the handle will feel significantly lighter when taking a loop stroke than an 85 gram blade that is head heavy and handle hollow. It is just physics.
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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 11-04-2014 at 01:32 PM.
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    #10
    Carl is better with logical argument words than me haha ! Good job Carl.

    ... and great question(s) maybe we make another thread about it.

    Also, it is good to think deeply about why/exactly HOW we recover. Anything that makes us re-look at fundamentals and re0inforce them or make them better is good for me. That is why I like talking about how stuff works or why I like breaking down a vid a pro made... it all makes me think about how and why principles are important and how they are effectively used. Looking nice is one thing and that is great, but being able to function in battle as an individual (and also as a team) is way more important.

    WHY do companies make head heavy blades? WHY do players like them? WHY do players crave LIGHT or LIGHTER blades?

    My short answer is cynical. it is a way to make a whole new generation of blades to be sold and make moar money. Still, some peole want that feeling and I say great to them, but NOT for me. Where there is a market, a company will step in and make money. That is the way of the weasle. Even more so, a company (or entire industry) will seek ways to MAKE a market. So they make desires for products where no desire existed before.

    Someone said the art of business is to get people to buy things they WANT (yet absolutely do NOT need), and to create and support that WANT.

    I am all for companies inovating and making our lives useful, fun or easier. That is great stuff. Let's just keep a sane head about it.
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  11. Der_Echte is offline
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    #11
    When I saw the reesult on the scale of a WHOPPING nearly 220 grams... I thought "Oh crap, maybe I added a little TOO MUCH weight to this thing." When I first picked it up and held it, I could immediately tell it was heavier. heck, no shyt Sherlock, the thing is 40% heavier, an idiot could know the difference, and rightly so. When I took a SLOW swing, it did feel heavy.

    Once I got to the rec center and did some serves and a few practice loops bouncing ball on floor one meter behind table, this thing felt SWEET, not over heavy at all and it was over 30 friggin' grams heavier.

    I will have to do many matches to really know the effectiveness. Personally, I think I can function well with this, but I think anywhere from 15-20 gram increase in weight to the handle area would be sufficient (Assuming I filled in hte empty space form teh nails with glue to stabilize everything and keep it from moving/shaking)

    Someone in an earlier thread asked how to help out with a head heavy blade and I recommended this same modification. He ended up adding less weight (5-8 grams) with thick grip tape and it worked BETTER for him. Was he KM1976 or another member? I say everyone should be able to know and understand what works for them and do it.

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    #12
    For the record (like the thread you all saw about the 896 bat I did the same mod on, but with less weight) the 896 bats I had Carl try out I think I added around 10 grams weight with nails/glue and another 5 with grip tape. The bats I had him tryout were around high upper 190s or low 200 grams in total weight. Normally, the total weight with thise rubbers and NO grip tape would be low 180s, no more than 185 grams.

    Like Carl mentioned, in live action, it was hard to tell these were 200+ gram battle ax weapons. I have the same observations Carl has, this mod greatly improves the feel, balance, solid impact, and overall speed of the bat (on hard struck shots)

    The best feeling blade I have EVER operated was a Nexy Calix II that I did this mod to make it from low 180s to low 200s grams. Unfortunately, that blade crashed and burned vs a table and is no more. Besides, that was a very expensive blade many will be very reluctant to modify. Taht is why i say get a great inexpensive bat and mess around with things yourselves. The financial risk is low and there is a lot to learn about yourself.
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  13. KM1976 is offline
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    #13
    Hi Der_Echte, yes it was me who asked your kind help for head heaviness of my blade. As I mentioned before, I started using Donic Bluefire M2 both sides and it indeed is a very heavy rubber.
    Most of the times practice, patience and an observant mind answers all your questions

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    #14
    i like those pics which sir der_echte rebuilt his beast...maybe i can do that on my clipper too.. the friendship blade that i was using before my clipper was quite heavier...
    ...i feel comfortable with heavier blade or maybe i'm just used to it...i have no issues about reflexes or pressures as long as i am in the right position, a little footwork would do fine...sir der_echte has answered all what i wanted to know more...thanks...

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    #15
    I've read in some threads that even the non-WRB Classic Clipper/Clipper Wood has hollow handle. Is this true? How do you know if your handle is hollow?

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    #16
    Danny, that is a great question. We really won't know until we take it apart, no? I would bet one week of lunch that if you bought that Clipper new within the last several years, it has a hollow handle. If not totally hollow in BOTH the handle pieces AND the lower neck of the blade (like my Allround Evolution was) than at LEAST the handle pieces are hollow. I bet ONE WEEK of lunch on it.

    I also bet Carl would know right away two, since he seems to know Stiga stuff pretty darm well

    If I am wrong, then there is the problem of you collecting your lunch as we live pretty far apart. You could always park yourself at Tokyo Narita Airport when i get my connecting flight to Korea and I would be out MAJOR money as airport cafes are 3x more expensive
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    #17
    Danny, you could also try tapping it too, but besides taking off one handle, you'll never know for 100% sure.
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Danny, that is a great question. We really won't know until we take it apart, no? I would bet one week of lunch that if you bought that Clipper new within the last several years, it has a hollow handle. If not totally hollow in BOTH the handle pieces AND the lower neck of the blade (like my Allround Evolution was) than at LEAST the handle pieces are hollow. I bet ONE WEEK of lunch on it.

    I also bet Carl would know right away two, since he seems to know Stiga stuff pretty darm well

    If I am wrong, then there is the problem of you collecting your lunch as we live pretty far apart. You could always park yourself at Tokyo Narita Airport when i get my connecting flight to Korea and I would be out MAJOR money as airport cafes are 3x more expensive
    Hahaha, looks like I lost this bet, which i didn't agreed to. ) Yes, i've bought my clipper wood 6 months ago. It's interesting that Stiga still hollows out the handle and still markets it as a non-wrb version. haha

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    #19
    I really don't know what WRB is different from just hollowing out the handles like the entire industry seems to be doing.

    Myself, I cannot understand how removing nearly 2/3 of the width of the neck several CM down the neck for at least 1/2 the length of the neck will retain any acceptable stability. You take out too much of the "Meat" and there isn't a lot left to chew on.

    With concrete, when you pour straight concrete say for a porch at your home, it isn't very strong and will fall apart with the years. It isn't re-inforced. The industry does that with rubarb, which are thin poles or rods of iron, usually a cm or two thick. You lay down some concrete, then you add the rods in criss cross and it greatly strengthens the concrete. At home if you do it yourself and cannot / do not want to buy the rods, you simply fill in the space with whatever scrap metal you have laying around on hand. That saves money and saves concrete, but the result is much stronger and durable than straight concrete.

    I put in nails, which are like the rods and I completely fill in the empty space with wood glue. When it all sets and cures to a finish, the endstate is a much more strong and solid result. I can feel this difference on my impact. So does Carl. The blade gives a different feedback than when it was hollow. You are also impacting the ball a bit different too as the balance is different. I do not have nice expensive equipment to test the blades for pitch frequency on impact (like Korea TT forum chief HedgeHog does - he has his own equipment test company) but I would say the pitch is different for sure. I certainly feel a difference and I really reall y really LIKE it.

    Did I mention that I really like it?

    The Following User Likes Der_Echte's Post:

    UpSideDownCarl

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  20. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
    Super Moderator 16,224 14,731
    UpSideDownCarl's Avatar
    UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
    Super Moderator 14,731 16,224
    #20
    I hit with this blade yesterday when Der_Echte was in NYC and it feels really good. It does not feel heavy because the weight is in the handle.
    Setup 1: Blade by Nate: Vortex Spin Machine, FH Evolution MX-K, BH Evolution FX-P
    Setup 2: OSP Virtuoso Plus, FH Rasanter R 48, BH Rasanter R 48
    Spin is Everything

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