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View Full Version : Does all Pro Player's use boosted rubbers?



michiy
05-06-2015, 01:39 PM
I've watched most of games from the WTTC 2015, and you can really see which players have boosted rubbers and those who do not. For example Mizutani's rubber seem to have very little to no booster at all, and Gao Nin's rubbers have a lot (IMO). Gao's rubbers sound very different and louder, and the speed on which the ball travels from his strokes doesn't match, which is really odd.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIGV2dUSe9M

I am not here to discuss the legal aspect of it, and most players do boost their rubbers (some boost a lot, and others just a little), but here is my question:

In order to stay fairly competitive, boosting your rubbers is the way to go?

Tinykin
05-06-2015, 06:09 PM
The pros do not boost their rubbers as it is illegal to do so.
Similarly, no one on here has ever driven their car over the speed limit as that too is illegal.
Let's move on.

cakezxc280
05-06-2015, 07:01 PM
Post edited. Pressed the wrong button :P

cakezxc280
05-06-2015, 07:05 PM
The pros do not boost their rubbers as it is illegal to do so.
Similarly, no one on here has ever driven their car over the speed limit as that too is illegal.
Let's move on.
Thats like saying none of the pros dope because it's illegal. And we all know thats not true ahaha. Moreover the boosters are much harder to actually detect than performance enhancement drugs....
A lot of them boost, as we can hear from their rubbers and I for one know that a certain donic dealer (not european) even supplies their contract players with boosters.
I have discussed the advantage of boosting in a previous thread and got flamed so hard I could almost feel the heat coming over the internet, so im not going to do it again to waste my time explaining again.

vanir
05-06-2015, 07:55 PM
Thats like saying none of the pros dope because it's illegal. And we all know thats not true ahaha. Moreover the boosters are much harder to actually detect than performance enhancement drugs....
A lot of them boost, as we can hear from their rubbers and I for one know that a certain donic dealer (not european) even supplies their contract players with boosters.
I have discussed the advantage of boosting in a previous thread and got flamed so hard I could almost feel the heat coming over the internet, so im not going to do it again to waste my time explaining again.
He was being sarcastic.

michiy
05-06-2015, 07:56 PM
Well, it just a fact that boosting is a traditional way to enhance a rubber performance and is only illegal because ITTF wanted to. Speedglueing was a very common practice 20 years ago, along with ball diameter increase and ban of speed glue all players had to adapt.

I guess it is unquestionable that some (not to say most of them) do boost their rubbers. Factory tuned (or boosted) rubbers are not illegal according to ITTF regulations, so many professionals get their rubbers straight from the factory (and this does not classify as illegal).

The fact is that they use boosted rubbers, and I am not interested in the legal aspect of it, is there a way to stay competitive without boosted rubbers?


Similarly, no one on here has ever driven their car over the speed limit as that too is illegal.

Just a quick observation, people really often break the rules and go over speed limits. This sure is illegal, but doesn't mean no one does it.

vanir
05-06-2015, 08:04 PM
The fact is that they use boosted rubbers, and I am not interested in the legal aspect of it, is there a way to stay competitive without boosted rubbers?


I don't think so unless you count factory boosted rubber.

I mean Chinese national team gets their own rubber tuned and boost to their liking with their name on it.

For example, the last picture: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?10424-Fang-Bo-s-Equipment-2015

That blue sponge says Zhang Jike in Chinese on it.

By the way, Chinese and Korean tend to add more hit in their loop for speed, unlike the more spin oriented European style loops (edit: European style may not be spin oriented, that maybe a misconception on my part.). The Korean coaches even go as far as teaching generate enough spin to land the ball on the table and put the rest of power in speed. You can see this in play as Chinese and Korean player loop tend to land deeper. You can see this in the match you posted as well. Gao Ning have a higher hit to brush ratio than Jun.

Boosting really doesn't give anywhere near as much sound as speedgluing, it is mostly difference in how they play.

michiy
05-06-2015, 08:13 PM
That's very interesting, so the key is only have enough spin on the ball?

So to achieve this stroke I have to concentrated to do a more forward motion and flatter stroke? Or do I have to really have brush the ball forward?

vanir
05-06-2015, 08:24 PM
That's very interesting, so the key is only have enough spin on the ball?

So to achieve this stroke I have to concentrated to do a more forward motion and flatter stroke? Or do I have to really have brush the ball forward?

Do a more forward motion and flatter stroke. I am not sure how Korean coaches see and categorize looping. But in Chinese view, there is two main type of loops. The spin loop and the forward rushing loop. I think the name is pretty clear in of itself. The spin loop mostly for turning a heavy bottomspin into a topspin loop, this is a more upward brushing stroke. Forward rushing loop is for ball with less bottomspin or topspin, this is more a forward hitting stroke with brushing. Forward rushing loop is the preferred loop, only use the spinny loop if you can't do a forward rushing loop. Of course it is more difficult to pull it off, in China many non-formally trained player often complain about how they can't do a forward rushing loop on the internet.

Here is some video of Hong Kong player demo:

Listen to the difference in the sound.

Forward Rushing Loop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCRHeoIYEmI&list=PLUBayojWuZdZUebIQ7DQk7SFMF04QIBLa&index=2&hd=1

Spinning Loop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-KLXdeLEBw&list=PLUBayojWuZdZUebIQ7DQk7SFMF04QIBLa&index=8&hd=1

The more hitting you hit the louder the sound is, the faster the ball goes, and deeper the ball lands. The spin actually slightly stronger in forward rushing loops. Spinny loop are a more safe move, and have a larger window of timing since you can do it when the ball is falling. To reiterate, use forward rushing loop unless the bottomspin is too strong, the ball is past the highest point, or you want to be more safe.

On the topic of spin, there is a study of the spin of each stroke in small ball era. No speed gluing was used since the experiment was in 1987 and China's first speed glue user, Kong LingHui, started speedgluing in 1992.

In the study, spinny loop are called high loop and forward rushing loop are called forward driving loop. You can see forward driving loop is spinny on average and maximum.

http://www.ittf.com/ittf_science/SSCenter/docs/199208013-%20Wu%20-%20Table%20Tennis%20Spin.pdf

Edit: Technically, high loop (高吊弧圈球) is different than spinny loop(加轉弧圈球). High loop is even more spin oriented with a higher trajectory. Spinny loop is in between high loop and forward rushing loop. High loop is not used in game at all, high trajectory makes it a non-viable shot.

Tinykin
05-06-2015, 08:48 PM
Interesting videos. I've seen them before but good revival.

michiy
05-07-2015, 01:12 AM
Do a more forward motion and flatter stroke. I am not sure how Korean coaches see and categorize looping. But in Chinese view, there is two main type of loops. The spin loop and the forward rushing loop. I think the name is pretty clear in of itself. The spin loop mostly for turning a heavy bottomspin into a topspin loop, this is a more upward brushing stroke. Forward rushing loop is for ball with less bottomspin or topspin, this is more a forward hitting stroke with brushing. Forward rushing loop is the preferred loop, only use the spinny loop if you can't do a forward rushing loop. Of course it is more difficult to pull it off, in China many non-formally trained player often complain about how they can't do a forward rushing loop on the internet.

Here is some video of Hong Kong player demo:

Listen to the difference in the sound.

Forward Rushing Loop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCRHeoIYEmI&list=PLUBayojWuZdZUebIQ7DQk7SFMF04QIBLa&index=2&hd=1

Spinning Loop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-KLXdeLEBw&list=PLUBayojWuZdZUebIQ7DQk7SFMF04QIBLa&index=8&hd=1

The more hitting you hit the louder the sound is, the faster the ball goes, and deeper the ball lands. The spin actually slightly stronger in forward rushing loops. Spinny loop are a more safe move, and have a larger window of timing since you can do it when the ball is falling. To reiterate, use forward rushing loop unless the bottomspin is too strong, the ball is past the highest point, or you want to be more safe.

There is a study of the spin of each stroke in small ball era. No speed gluing was used since the experiment was in 1987 and China's first speed glue user, Kong LingHui, started speedgluing in 1992.

In the study, spinny loop are called high loop and forward rushing loop are called forward driving loop. You can see forward driving loop is spinny on average and maximum.

http://www.ittf.com/ittf_science/SSCenter/docs/199208013-%20Wu%20-%20Table%20Tennis%20Spin.pdf

Edit: Technically, high loop (高吊弧圈球) is different than spinny loop(加轉弧圈球). High loop is even more spin oriented with a higher trajectory. Spinny loop is in between high loop and forward rushing loop. High loop is not used in game at all, high trajectory makes it a non-viable shot.

These are awesome videos! Thank you vanir!

I will work on this technique and see if I have any further improvement.

cakezxc280
05-07-2015, 02:05 AM
He was being sarcastic.
I had in fact suspected he was being sarcastic. The again the final "Move On" was what made it confusing.

Yes, the sound difference between a boosted and a normal rubber is small but it is there, and quite distinctive if you know know how it sounds like.

I don't know what made you say Chinese/Asian players play with more hitting action while European players do so with more spin, but from my first hand experiences of playing with higher leveled players in either region over extended periods, I can firmly say it's the direct opposite. The basic European loop action is in fact a lot more of a forward driving action, with more emphasis on the forearm while not really moving the arm totally. You can see it from
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j19XOYZsli8"

The chinese action is a lot bigger with a tad more of an upward action when compared to european ones. When I was taught to play when I was younger by the ex-singaporean women's team coach, I was taught to "draw a nice arc" (exact quote:"這樣劃出來的弧線就很漂亮拉"), and I've seen other chinese coaches teaching students to draw a full circle in front of their chest while standing adjacent to the table (劃圓). Also they always seem to put a heavy emphasis on "rubbing the ball"(摩擦) when they are coaching on the sidelines.

So from a theoretical stance, the chinese styled loop SHOULD be generating more spin the european one, and from my experiences, that is correct. I've played several GB nationals and the most difficult thing to deal with while playing with them is their quickness of reacting to the ball and the speed they put on most of their shots. Most of the points I lost were from me being out of position as my recovery simply isnt fast enough to catch up. And playing with chinese provincial team players (I have yet to find a national one :P), the most difficult thing for me were the serve variations and the spin they put on the loops. It's very hard to find the correct angle to place my bat while blocking without getting it too high/go below the net.

Then again, these are my personal experiences and I don't think I have a good enough understanding of TT to say that what I say is definitely correct, so dont take my comment as me trying to correct you.

P.S. Yes Gao Ning hits more than mizutani, but then again, that's what lost him a lot of points. You can see him dropping quite a bit of shots that would have went through if he added that bit more of lifting action.

vanir
05-07-2015, 07:01 AM
Edit:
Now I thought about it. It might be European loops do emphasis speed. It is just because I never met one in real life so I don't know about that. Most serious player in North America are Asian immigrates and their descendent who are all trained by Chinese coaches. Since Timo Boll is known for high spinny loops, and Jun who was trained in Europe also do more spinny loop. Couple this with my experience with high throw rubber. I had this idea of European style player do spinny loop.

Here is a good article on Timo Boll high spinny loop:
https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/handling-high-spinny-topspin-balls/

Also, the next time you miss a high. slow and spinny loop, remember that this is one of Timo Bolls strongest weapons against the Chinese.

This article also touch on what I believe to be the same thing as the feel of acceleration. It is called the kick effect in the article.

Original:
I think the reason for the stroke angle is the throw angle of the rubber. Chinese rubber tend to have a lower throw angle, as oppose to Tenergy which is the common rubber in forehand for European players.

In my personal experience which might not be correct, the high throw angle makes a more hitting stroke harder to pull off. Due to how close you racket must be, therefore, a decrease in surface area.

All the coaches I had trained with before are from China or Hong Kong. Canada Vancouver have lot of immigrates coaches. They generally ask us to land the ball as deep as you are conformable with to drive the opponent back and therefore reduce his angle of play, decrease his power in shot, etc. I personally interpret that as adding more speed in the shot, as adding more speed would make the shot deeper. Not sure if I just misunderstood them.


the most difficult thing for me were the serve variations and the spin they put on the loops. It's very hard to find the correct angle to place my bat while blocking without getting it too high/go below the net.

I completely agree with this. In addition, this variations in spin and speed in the loops. They emphasis something called the "second speed" (二速), there refers to the speed after the bounce on the table. "First speed" would be like what Korean coaches tell player to do (according the Chinese forum, never met one in real life). Only enough spin to land ball on table and rest in speed, this will produce ball that are fast before bounce.
"Second speed" refer to the speed after the bounce. This is because topspin balls will feel like they accelerate in speed after the bounce, or jump out at you. This will require a good balance of spin and speed.

My person theory of that the ball is not accelerating (obviously). this feel is due to the topspin causing the angle of the bounce in lower and make it seems to it becoming faster.

dici
05-07-2015, 12:47 PM
There was a significant sound if you hit it right. But you had to get yourself into the right position for it. We have one chinese player who used to play in his university team show me how to do it (for looping backspin ball), and I did able to generate the click sound if the motion is right using Nittaku fastarc G-1. It is not easy to do it if you too get used to your looping motion.

But boosting the rubber sure will make the sound click more louder, but the real difference still is the ball speed and spin after the bounce.

Der_Echte
05-07-2015, 01:42 PM
The pros do not boost their rubbers as it is illegal to do so.
Similarly, no one on here has ever driven their car over the speed limit as that too is illegal.
Let's move on.

Tinykin just moved up a notch in respect for employing my brand of wit.

igorponger
08-14-2015, 06:15 AM
Most pros will do it secretly, but the Nipponese. Nipponese would obey the nation Code of Honour.

JHB
08-14-2015, 09:41 AM
Timo Boll claims that he uses Tenergy straight off the shelf. Believe or disbelieve this as you choose.

gman4911
08-14-2015, 09:47 AM
Interestingly, Gao Ning was cited for using an illegal racket at the 2015 WTTC. The match in the video was on May 1 so he could have been cited before or after his match with Chen Weixing on Apr 30.
http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/players_RC_infractions_31_07_15.pdf

raazzz
08-14-2015, 11:33 AM
Timo Boll claims that he uses Tenergy straight off the shelf. Believe or disbelieve this as you choose.

Sorry but I have to disbelieve in that. :)

UpSideDownCarl
08-14-2015, 02:15 PM
And I have heard that the Tenergy that the Japanese team gets is different than what all the other pros get. But, if the factory boosts the rubber before they give it to the pro, then, by ITTF standards, that is okay.

So Tinykin is right! The pros don't boost and nobody every goes faster than the speed limit.

I always like to see how certain pros seem to keep needing to press their rubbers back onto their blades between points as though their rubbers must be curling off their blade. But I don't think that is because of the boost on the rubber. They must just be fastidious about their equipment!

UpSideDownCarl
08-14-2015, 04:16 PM
Tinykin just moved up a notch in respect for employing my brand of wit.

I think he might have passed either of us. I wish I had that brand of wit.

Der_Echte
08-14-2015, 04:30 PM
Yup, and they don't have someone shave the center of the blade to let the tuner swell up the middle part of the sponge and still pass the 4mm inspection and make it look all level even haha.

If the President or Governor or Mayor lies, it is called POLITICS and no criminal charges are filed. If we lie, it is called PURGERY or whatever and we is persecuted something fierce. :D

UpSideDownCarl
08-14-2015, 05:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0uPYv3rq0c

Might as well post this here too. :)

Der_Echte
08-14-2015, 06:16 PM
Post it on the 3" LCD screen of Ur refrigerator to hehe. Might as well pipe that vid to the basement septic tank so the Goon Squads got more than catching sewer rats for LULZ.

Baal
08-14-2015, 08:34 PM
I think it is possible that at least some pros would not like what boosting does to Tenergy and they don't boost mainly because they play worse that way.