high and low throw rubbers

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I'm no expert at this, but thinking about it logically, it's not so hard to understand the basic stuff. There are of course other aspects to take into consideration, but thinking solely about the throw.
I would believe high throws might be slightly easier for aim further away from the table, meanwhile lower throw can be more deadly close to the table.
Though although some rubbers have high throws and some low throws, the arc can vary a lot (this is ofcourse also affected by the blade) but some can be a easier up and quick drop, type. While some tend tohave a long arc without much of a quick drop at the end. Diferent types of strokes can adjust this to a long extent, but, some come more naturally in their arc than others, while the same stroke is used.
I think tbh these are things that have to be felt, and not explained. Though in the international level, looking at the most used rubbers (like, Tenergy 05, 64 and Hurricane 3 Neo) They have throw angles at around 6-8 / 10. (well, on ttdb, no rubber has a throw angle above 8, so maybe /8?)
It's a matter of getting used to, but I guess I would go with something similar? I guess higher is slightly more preferable because it gives a more smooth and controllable arc. With a lower throw angle you'd have to give more effort getting the ball to loop nicely over the net.

Not the best at explaining, but I hope it helped some. xD
 
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Kaizoku, I think your explanation is excellent.

High throw is easier to get over the net especially against backspin or far back. Low throw is harder to get over the net, but the lower attacks seem to be more lethal.

I believe Wang Liqin, in his heyday, was using low throw rubbers to go with his killer attacking style.
 
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Throw is another TT term with not much meaning.
I see the term throw, throw angle, throw distance etc.
What force causes throw? I never have heard of a throw force. This kind of rates right up there with the disturbing or disruptive force, the unicorn, tooth fairy ...
What are the units?
Throw angle makes some sense. Then it can be determined by ThrowAngle = atan(VerticalSpeed/HorizontalSpeed)
but wait. I don't care what the angle is going back as long as the ball doesn't clear the net by more than 4 inches. I don't want a high throw angle so the ball clears the net by more than 4 inches. No matter what rubber I use I will adjust my paddle and stroke so the ball just clears the net. Obviously I must close my paddle more with higher throw rubbers to keep the ball lower over the net.

What force can a low throw rubber generate that a high throw rubber can't? What about the other way around? I see all sort of ridiculous claims that it is easier to loop back chopped balls with higher throw rubbers like T05 but looping back chopped balls with T25 is hard, nonsense. If that were true I wouldn't have a chance with a hard bat.

I have rarely seen the term throw make sense on a TT forum.
I have seen reviews where rubber A is rated to have a higher throw than rubber B yet rubber B is generates more spin. This doesn't make sense at all unless rubber B is very fast.

The truth is that the paddle exerts a force on the ball during impact. The force times the dwell time is the impulse. That force/impulse can be broken down into a normal force and tangential force. What you guys call high throw rubbers tend to have a higher tangential force/impulse relative to normal force for the same incoming ball and swing conditions than a low throw rubber.

A better term than throw would be spin/speed ratio or tangential COR/normal COR ratio. This factors out the swing of the human and makes it easier to rate the rubbers alone and not the rubber+players.

Since it is the tangential force/impulse that causes spin, loopers would like higher throw rubbers especially if they are going to loop quickly off the bounce. Hitters would like lower throw rubbers. What I like about SP, low throw, is that they make it easy to place the ball and not affected as much by incoming spin. In the end it is really a matter of preference and ability to adapt.
 
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Who really cares about the science behind throw angle?

One of the most interesting things Pnachtwey has said is this:

A better term than throw would be spin/speed ratio or tangential COR/normal COR ratio. This factors out the swing of the human and makes it easier to rate the rubbers alone and not the rubber+players.

Why is this interesting? He has actually admitted that there is such a thing as throw angle. Even though it is clear he is avoiding using the term. So a term he has said doesn't exist, he has just defined. In my book that is interesting.

With a blade throw angle might be dwell time/speed ratio.

I personally like high throw angle blades and rubbers. And unlike Pnatchtwey, I often aim way higher than 4 inches above the net. High spinny loops that land right on the base line off a heavy chop are good stuff. But often my power loops have enough spin so that, if they are a foot from the end of the table and two feet above the table, they will still get pulled down by the spin and land.
 
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UpSideDownCarl said:
Why is this interesting? He has actually admitted that there is such a thing as throw angle.
I would be stupid to say that what you guys call throw angle doesn't exist but the rest of the forum has doesn't have a definition for throw angle and often people use the term long throw, high throw or just throw.
I have defined throw angle as atan2(vertical_speed_after_impact/horizontal_speed_after_impact).

Mahomedy13, used the term 'linear throw' what does that mean?

Even though it is clear he is avoiding using the term. So a term he has said doesn't exist, he has just defined. In my book that is interesting.
Yes, I will avoid the term because throw angle is dependent on the stroke too and therefore not a good way to judge a rubber or blade. Spin/speed ratio is much better. Better yet tangential COR/normal COR.

With a blade throw angle might be dwell time/speed ratio.
No, dwell time has little to do with throw angle. Dwell time is more a function of impact speed and distance to stop the ball relative to the blade. Brushing strokes will have a little more dwell time but not much more. You guys have to remember I have the high speed videos.

I personally like high throw angle blades and rubbers. And unlike Pnatchtwey, I often aim way higher than 4 inches above the net. High spinny loops that land right on the base line off a heavy chop are good stuff.
High loops bounce high. They are too easy to counter hit.

But often my power loops have enough spin so that, if they are a foot from the end of the table and two feet above the table, they will still get pulled down by the spin and land.
They will still bounce high. If they have lots of spin the magnus effect may keep the bounce a little lower but that requires a lot of spin.

I like high throw rubbers on my FH and have played my best with 802 1.5mm on my BH ( low throw, but blocks and hits well as Sali suggests).
 
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I used to play with Bryce at speed glue era, it was a low throw and super fast rubber, but it was still possible to generate tons of spin.
Issue with modern rubbers is to find a low throw + high spin rubber.....rubbers are either high throw + high spin (MX-P, Bluefire M1/M2, T05/80.....) et moderate throw + lower spin (Calibra LT, Calibra Tour, T64, Sinus, Express One...etc...).

Only from Xiom I was able to find rubbers with very high spin (and speed) with moderate throw or like the awesome Sigma II pro. But I'm not used to this kind of rubber anymore and testing it on my brand new Nexy Zealot the throw is to low for my FH (but spin is amazing). I still wonder if I should practice again with a low throw rubber on my FH this summer before competition makes its come back, and adjust my technique to my former technique from speed glue era. If only Sigma II pro was released right after the speed glue ban.....it is the low throw and high speed from Calibra LT with the spin of MX-P.
 
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Yes, I will avoid the term because throw angle is dependent on the stroke too and therefore not a good way to judge a rubber or blade. Spin/speed ratio is much better. Better yet tangential COR/normal COR.

Well, I think that because the term "throw angle" is dependent on the stroke too, that is why it is a good way to judge a rubber or blade. If I'm interested to know the characteristics of a piece of equipment, it's because I want to know how I would play with it and if it fits my style. I don't want to fill a table with statistics.

I believe people are smart enough to understand that throw angle depends on their stroke, and judge the term relatively. If they hit a topspin with a high throw rubber, they expect the ball to go higher than if they'd hit the same stroke with a low throw rubber. Noone expects the rubber to just sit there and start throwing balls, high or low. Hell, if they do, I highly doubt they will make more sense of the "tangential COR/normal COR" term either! (or table tennis in general now that I think of it! :p )

So for me "high-low throw" is a term that communicates well the concept. If you want to attack a table tennis term, I think blade "feeling" is the one you're looking for! Seriously, this must be the most confusing thing ever, I might start a new thread for it!
 
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Here is a good example how the speed/spin can be visualized ,... from time 07:00
Actually, the spin can't be seen. There are no marks on the ball and the camera frames aren't fast enough to show the spin. The frame rate would have to be at more than twice spin rate to capture spin. Also, notice that the shutter speed is too long. Long shutter speeds make it easy to take videos in normal light but the ball looks like a blur.

This video shows why I don't like sloppy terminology. The video talks of throw height not throw angle. Since there are no people involved it is easy to compare the angles at which the balls bounce off the rubber. If you look at the video closely you will see that the 2.2mm rubber ALWAYS make the ball bounce up at steeper angle to the table. The 2.2mm tangential force is higher than the 2.0mm's tangential force. The tangential force also causes spin so the spin would be higher than for the 2mm even if we can't see the difference in spin. This shouldn't surprise anybody. However, the extra spin comes at a cost of reduced speed because the rotational and translational energy must be approximately the same. It is easy to see the 2.2mm balls don't travel as high as the 2mm because more of the energy they have is in spin not speed.

My point is that there is a difference between throw height and throw angle. The term throw ????? is used inconsistently. Different people have different strokes so there can be no true comparison while people are involved. People aren't calibrated instruments.

I wonder what those that say "thicker rubber is faster than thinner rubber" have to say about this but that is off topic.
 
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As Far as I understood Throw Angle is the path the ball takes from a specific stroke from start to end.
Throw Angle would also be the same as Flight Trajectory as far as I'm concerned.
Throw height is merely a term within the Throw angle/fight trajectory to imply how high it goes.
in the video the robot makes the same ball throws, therefore we can see the differences in the trajectory.
I don't really care if it's sloppy terminology as long as I understand the purpose, and differences it makes.
When same sheets are used, and there is a 0,2 mm thicker sponge, ofc it'l get a larger "flight trajectory" simply because the ball burries slightly further in and therefore the sponge has a larger catapult effect (if that's the correct term to use,) a +0,2mm sponge has simply more to go on. Though depending on types of rubber/sponges this might slightly vary, and not all sponges has the same catapult effect, and different sponge technologies makes it different from rubber to rubber. The rebound time will obv not be faster, but the speed of the ball in air, will USUALLY, be so.
With that said, I personally find minor scientific definitional differences irrelevant, but that might just be me. inconsistently is fine with me as long as I get it's definitional purpose, I'm not a perfectionist. :L

Greg Letts gives it a pretty simple explenation.
http://tabletennis.about.com/od/glossary/g/throw_angle.htm
 
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What are the advantages and disadvantages of high and low throw rubbers?

I bet Topspinner never thought he would get such a foolish discussion from people who obviously just like to argue. I wonder if this discussion is helping him with his question.

The way I judge throw angle is sort of simple. If I put a new rubber on my racket and it is different than the last rubber I was using and I perform the same stroke and the ball goes higher, using the same stroke on the same racket then it probably has a higher throw angle. Just a thought.

I personally don't need the tests even if the tests are fun. And if the quibbling about language causes people to have long discussions about who is right about the use of terms, then how would this help the person who originally asked the question when he wanted help understanding what kind of rubbers might be better for his game,


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I would be stupid to say that what you guys call throw angle doesn't exist but the rest of the forum has doesn't have a definition for throw angle and often people use the term long throw, high throw or just throw.
I have defined throw angle as atan2(vertical_speed_after_impact/horizontal_speed_after_impact).


Okay. Throw, without one of the other words is just someone leaving out a word. Long throw, I have to be honest, I don't know what that means either. I would say that is more like faster which in theory should make the ball go farther. But if one person takes his/her racket and tries three different rubbers on it, and with the same basic stroke, the ball goes higher with one, barely clears the net with the next and then with the third rubber the ball hits the net until the player adjusts the stroke to make the ball go higher, I think that is what most people mean by "throw angle".

I do think you may have a point that this might be about speed/spin ratio and your formula:

atan2(vertical_speed_after_impact/horizontal_speed_after_impact

But I am not sure how much this would help the average person who just wants help with what might be better for his/her game.

In a different thread, you stated that you would like to dispel some of the myths and clean up terminology because of how TT manufacturers use misleading information to sell new products when the new stuff isn't and can't be that different than the old stuff.

I agree with you on the basic premise of that concept. But here we have someone asking for information and a lot of the responses seem like obfuscation making it harder for the person to know what will be good for them.

The truth of the matter is, if you have an offensive minded player and you select 20 blades from all different brands that range from Off- to Off ("speed" rating) and from wood to composite, and 40 different mid-high end smooth rubbers from different companies with different hardnesses, and you made a dart board with the names of all the blades and threw till one was hit, and did the same for the rubbers till 2 were hit, and put the softer rubber on the backhand, that setup would be an okay setup. And if the person stuck with and played with that for a few months, then everything else they tried would be judged and compared based on them being used to that setup.

The setup might not be a perfect match for them. But it would work well enough.

But when someone is trying to find out about equipment and asks a question like: "what are the relative benefits of high and low throw angle rubbers", I am not so sure that arguing about the merits of the term will help the person understand what he/she is trying to figure out.

Yes, I will avoid the term because throw angle is dependent on the stroke too and therefore not a good way to judge a rubber or blade. Spin/speed ratio is much better. Better yet tangential COR/normal COR.

I think it is perfectly fine for you to avoid the term. In fact, I bet you could give the OP a pretty good answer to his question without saying the term even once because you are a pretty smart guy. But you didn't even think about writing anything helpful to him. Instead you started right off by arguing about the term.


No, dwell time has little to do with throw angle. Dwell time is more a function of impact speed and distance to stop the ball relative to the blade. Brushing strokes will have a little more dwell time but not much more. You guys have to remember I have the high speed videos.

What do you think would make one blade have a higher trajectory with the same stroke and rubbers as a different blade? Like why would my Virtuoso + with T05 and the same stroke cause the ball to come off my racket a little higher than my Clipper with T05 when they are the same weight and speed?

High loops bounce high. They are too easy to counter hit.

That depends on how spinny they are and how good the person on the other side of the net is. Often high extra spinny loops are very effective especially after a fast drive loop. Changing spin and speed often makes an opponent give you an easier ball to handle.

[They will still bounce high. If they have lots of spin the magnus effect may keep the bounce a little lower but that requires a lot of spin.

A high spinny loop is not a high not so spinny loop. But Wally Green has a shot he calls heavy no spin. It looks like a loop but it doesn't have a lot of spin. It is in fact almost no spin. It is amazing how effective that shot is against people under 2250 who he uses it on. In terms of shots that are effective, often changing spin, speed, depth and angle are effective.

Back to the actual subject, I also like rubbers with a "high throw angle". But that is, at least in part, because they are what I am used to. It is also because my game is based on trying to generate as much spin as possible with my loops. And I feel that the rubbers with a higher "throw angle" do that better than the ones with a lower throw angle.


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Der-Echte can FRISBY BH throw a rubber pretty darned low and far.

Does that count for anything?

Not to mention the Chiquita brand banana that you have.

Remember the time you banana flicked the peel right under the feet of the whole goon squad so we could escape. Talk about low and far throw!!!


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