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amekun
07-08-2015, 02:58 PM
Good day Everyone
I was wondering if anyone had TT related injuries
and did acupuncture sessions

Can you share your experience?

Best Regards

Amekun

Dan
07-08-2015, 03:03 PM
Hi Amekun,

When I injured my back in 2008/2009 I had acupuncture once a week. The relief was incredible. When I had around 4-6 acupuncture needles go into my back I had 95% relief which allowed me to continue training full time. After a week or two the pain would come back and then I would have another session of acupuncture to relief the injury. However after 1 year of doing this I started to become immune of the acupuncture work and I stopped getting the relief so I started doing alternative methods such as yoga, stretches and strengthen exercises.

I still have not got fully over my injury however I am able to maintain a healthy life style with minimal pain. I think if I was not training 4 hours per day when I was playing full time the acupuncture may still work very well and would have probably cured me fully. So in my case, acupuncture was completely amazing, as soon as the needle went into my back I felt the relief.

Do you currently have a injury and looking to give it a go?

amekun
07-08-2015, 03:08 PM
Hi Amekun,

When I injured my back in 2008/2009 I had acupuncture once a week. The relief was incredible. When I had around 4-6 acupuncture needles go into my back I had 95% relief which allowed me to continue training full time. After a week or two the pain would come back and then I would have another session of acupuncture to relief the injury. However after 1 year of doing this I started to become immune of the acupuncture work and I stopped getting the relief so I started doing alternative methods such as yoga, stretches and strengthen exercises.

I still have not got fully over my injury however I am able to maintain a healthy life style with minimal pain. I think if I was not training 4 hours per day when I was playing full time the acupuncture may still work very well and would have probably cured me fully. So in my case, acupuncture was completely amazing, as soon as the needle went into my back I felt the relief.

Do you currently have a injury and looking to give it a go?

Wow Quick response :) . hmmmmm yes, i have a lot of mates referring me try acupuncture. i have a persistent pain on my right shoulder. some also refer me to physio. just checking out more information about the hype on acupuncture.

Dan
07-08-2015, 03:19 PM
Wow Quick response :) . hmmmmm yes, i have a lot of mates referring me try acupuncture. i have a persistent pain on my right shoulder. some also refer me to physio. just checking out more information about the hype on acupuncture.

Haha no worries. I would say to definitely give it a try. Some of my friends have not found much benefit from it and some have found similar experiences to myself. I think it all depends on the injury etc.

Good luck!

mcaibyz2
07-08-2015, 05:16 PM
It is hard to prove wheter acupunctre works or not on injuries. Some injury recovers itself, using or not using acupuncture makes no difference. Some injury can never be cured by acupuncture alone. Most of the time, acupuncture gives "mental comfort" which helps the recovery. From my personal expereience, here is how my 2 years long injury get cured in 2 week:

1. Massage the injured area by a medical expert. I was massaged daily for 15 days in a Hospital in Beijing.
2. Electrifying the injured area. A doctor conncted a machine to my wrist after the massaging.
3. Spray made from Chinese herbs. I spray the area 3 times a day.

And magic happened after 2 weeks. The injury stayed the same for 2 years before the treatment.
BTW, the western doctors are nearly useless treating this type of injury.
Hope it helps.

amekun
07-09-2015, 03:49 AM
It is hard to prove wheter acupunctre works or not on injuries. Some injury recovers itself, using or not using acupuncture makes no difference. Some injury can never be cured by acupuncture alone. Most of the time, acupuncture gives "mental comfort" which helps the recovery. From my personal expereience, here is how my 2 years long injury get cured in 2 week:

1. Massage the injured area by a medical expert. I was massaged daily for 15 days in a Hospital in Beijing.
2. Electrifying the injured area. A doctor conncted a machine to my wrist after the massaging.
3. Spray made from Chinese herbs. I spray the area 3 times a day.

And magic happened after 2 weeks. The injury stayed the same for 2 years before the treatment.
BTW, the western doctors are nearly useless treating this type of injury.
Hope it helps.

The machines that was used, was it perhaps a TENS machine?

RIPPER
07-09-2015, 06:46 AM
Hi amekun,

I have had quite a lot of acupuncture and dry needling...there is slight difference as acupuncture targets more pressure points, from chinese origin, and dry needling targets tight points in the muscles that have knots...i have had a lot of both treatments and highly recommend them. It is best to relax as much as possible and the physio can twist them which can tighten them and if you are comfortable enough with it you can have the needles flicked. With your shoulder injury i would definately try it and it is also likely that some in the neck and other areas will relieve the pain in your shoulder as each muscle is connected and can pull on one another

Dan
07-09-2015, 12:56 PM
It is hard to prove wheter acupunctre works or not on injuries. Some injury recovers itself, using or not using acupuncture makes no difference. Some injury can never be cured by acupuncture alone. Most of the time, acupuncture gives "mental comfort" which helps the recovery. From my personal expereience, here is how my 2 years long injury get cured in 2 week:

1. Massage the injured area by a medical expert. I was massaged daily for 15 days in a Hospital in Beijing.
2. Electrifying the injured area. A doctor conncted a machine to my wrist after the massaging.
3. Spray made from Chinese herbs. I spray the area 3 times a day.

And magic happened after 2 weeks. The injury stayed the same for 2 years before the treatment.
BTW, the western doctors are nearly useless treating this type of injury.
Hope it helps.

What type of injury did you have? I have had various massage to my back but i need an expert as i do find relief from massage on my back injury but pain comes back a few days later.

amekun
07-09-2015, 02:59 PM
Hi amekun,

I have had quite a lot of acupuncture and dry needling...there is slight difference as acupuncture targets more pressure points, from chinese origin, and dry needling targets tight points in the muscles that have knots...i have had a lot of both treatments and highly recommend them. It is best to relax as much as possible and the physio can twist them which can tighten them and if you are comfortable enough with it you can have the needles flicked. With your shoulder injury i would definately try it and it is also likely that some in the neck and other areas will relieve the pain in your shoulder as each muscle is connected and can pull on one another

im starting to get convinced.
it doesnt work on one session only, does it? if no, how many sessions will it probably(an estimate would be ok) take?

UpSideDownCarl
07-09-2015, 06:17 PM
One thing you should know with stuff like acupuncture, you may also have to figure out what action is causing the injury and lay off it for a couple of weeks or even a couple of months while you are doing the treatment. Like, what Dan is describing, how things felt better and then got worse, the acupuncture removed the symptoms for him, but he kept doing what was causing the problem so the symptoms came back and as he continued doing a treatment that allowed him to continue doing the actions that were causing the problem, the condition moved from the initial stage (acute) to a long term stage (chronic) and slowly, the body's pain response got more prevalent and probably the injury also progressed.

If Dan had taken a few months off training, did the acupuncture till he was pain free and then did physical therapy for about 6-8 weeks without doing TT, he might have been able to go back with a complete recovery and the injury may have not bothered him again.

But he may have also re-injured the area 6 months to 4 years down the line.

In any case, part of the point is, you have to stop doing what is causing the injury and do the things that will help the body heal the injured area.

A comedy example/analogy: if you keep taking painkiller for a head pain, but keep banging your head against a wall, causing the head pain, the head pain will continue and progress.

With back or shoulder pain, the first issue is reducing the pain. The second issue is stretching things that are tight and contributing to the pain, strengthening things that are weak and causing you to do a movement in a way where damage is occurring. The third thing is your body needs TIME to heal.

Some injuries will get better with just these three. But there are two more stages for real, full recovery.

Usually in a sports related injury that is in a joint from repetitive use, the progression goes like this. The way the action is being done (the mechanics) are causing one side of the joint to work more and get tighter. Two results are that the other side of the joint, works less and gets weaker. This causes weight to transfer through the joint, in a non-centered way. For instance, it is common for certain actions to cause the outer thigh near the knee joint to be stronger and tighter and the inner thigh to get weaker and then stretch and be too long as the stronger-tighter outer part of the knee pulls outward. Then when you are walking you will end up bearing weight on the lateral condyle of the knee, which causes a spiraling feedback loop that causes the outer quad (lateral aspect of the knee) to tighten more, the inner quad (medial aspect of the knee) to get pulled and stretched, and eventually that pulls your kneecap laterally and stops it from tracking properly.

In any case, you generally want a joint to bear weight through the center of the joint so the force is dispersed more evenly through the joint during the movement. That stuff I was describing will also cause the tighter side of the joint to wear faster.

So what is all this info about???? The last two parts of healing a sports injury should be:

1) strengthening the longer weaker side and stretching the shorter tighter side (most often the realm of physical therapy).

2) improving the mechanics so that you don't get into that bad feedback loop after the injury FEELS like it is better (neuromuscular re-patterning)

Again to list the priorities:

1) removal of pain.

2) removal of the actions that are causing the problem.

3) time to heal

4) exercises and treatment that will strengthen the weak side of the joint and lengthen the stronger, tighter side. (This is often what physical therapy will confine itself to. Not always. A good physical therapist will get a person to and do all 5 stages of recovery).

5) neuromuscular re-patterning: in English, improving the biomechanics of movement so that weight transfers through the center of the joint in the specific movement that is causing the trauma to the joint so you don't re-injure the affected area.

The fifth part is the most difficult one and is most commonly left out (unfortunately). Common ways of doing the forth stage would include identifying movements causing the problem (ideally ALL OF THEM) duplicating simulations of the movement until the improved biomechanics are patterned into muscle memory. And then, slowly re-establishing the movement in the actual situation, slowly, ensuring that the dysfunctional movement pattern does not slip back in, and then building up so the person can do the action at full speed (for the particular sport) without reverting back to the previous dysfunctional movement patter. Once the correct biomechanics are established into muscle memory, that injury usually should not recur.

This would be more important for a more serious injury like Dan's than for a less serious injury, but ideally, those five steps will allow your body to do the healing and not re aggravate the injury.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

UpSideDownCarl
07-09-2015, 07:17 PM
By the way, in my post, time to heal, does not mean you should not exercise and move. But you should not do the actions that cause the problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

aznalanx32
07-09-2015, 08:58 PM
My father is an acupuncturist and Chinese herbalist. Acupuncture does work for people in the club I play.

amekun
07-10-2015, 12:13 AM
One thing you should know with stuff like acupuncture, you may also have to figure out what action is causing the injury and lay off it for a couple of weeks or even a couple of months while you are doing the treatment. Like, what Dan is describing, how things felt better and then got worse, the acupuncture removed the symptoms for him, but he kept doing what was causing the problem so the symptoms came back and as he continued doing a treatment that allowed him to continue doing the actions that were causing the problem, the condition moved from the initial stage (acute) to a long term stage (chronic) and slowly, the body's pain response got more prevalent and probably the injury also progressed.

If Dan had taken a few months off training, did the acupuncture till he was pain free and then did physical therapy for about 6-8 weeks without doing TT, he might have been able to go back with a complete recovery and the injury may have not bothered him again.

But he may have also re-injured the area 6 months to 4 years down the line.

In any case, part of the point is, you have to stop doing what is causing the injury and do the things that will help the body heal the injured area.

A comedy example/analogy: if you keep taking painkiller for a head pain, but keep banging your head against a wall, causing the head pain, the head pain will continue and progress.

With back or shoulder pain, the first issue is reducing the pain. The second issue is stretching things that are tight and contributing to the pain, strengthening things that are weak and causing you to do a movement in a way where damage is occurring. The third thing is your body needs TIME to heal.

Some injuries will get better with just these three. But there are two more stages for real, full recovery.

Usually in a sports related injury that is in a joint from repetitive use, the progression goes like this. The way the action is being done (the mechanics) are causing one side of the joint to work more and get tighter. Two results are that the other side of the joint, works less and gets weaker. This causes weight to transfer through the joint, in a non-centered way. For instance, it is common for certain actions to cause the outer thigh near the knee joint to be stronger and tighter and the inner thigh to get weaker and then stretch and be too long as the stronger-tighter outer part of the knee pulls outward. Then when you are walking you will end up bearing weight on the lateral condyle of the knee, which causes a spiraling feedback loop that causes the outer quad (lateral aspect of the knee) to tighten more, the inner quad (medial aspect of the knee) to get pulled and stretched, and eventually that pulls your kneecap laterally and stops it from tracking properly.

In any case, you generally want a joint to bear weight through the center of the joint so the force is dispersed more evenly through the joint during the movement. That stuff I was describing will also cause the tighter side of the joint to wear faster.

So what is all this info about???? The last two parts of healing a sports injury should be:

1) strengthening the longer weaker side and stretching the shorter tighter side (most often the realm of physical therapy).

2) improving the mechanics so that you don't get into that bad feedback loop after the injury FEELS like it is better (neuromuscular re-patterning)

Again to list the priorities:

1) removal of pain.

2) removal of the actions that are causing the problem.

3) time to heal

4) exercises and treatment that will strengthen the weak side of the joint and lengthen the stronger, tighter side. (This is often what physical therapy will confine itself to. Not always. A good physical therapist will get a person to and do all 5 stages of recovery).

5) neuromuscular re-patterning: in English, improving the biomechanics of movement so that weight transfers through the center of the joint in the specific movement that is causing the trauma to the joint so you don't re-injure the affected area.

The fifth part is the most difficult one and is most commonly left out (unfortunately). Common ways of doing the forth stage would include identifying movements causing the problem (ideally ALL OF THEM) duplicating simulations of the movement until the improved biomechanics are patterned into muscle memory. And then, slowly re-establishing the movement in the actual situation, slowly, ensuring that the dysfunctional movement pattern does not slip back in, and then building up so the person can do the action at full speed (for the particular sport) without reverting back to the previous dysfunctional movement patter. Once the correct biomechanics are established into muscle memory, that injury usually should not recur.

This would be more important for a more serious injury like Dan's than for a less serious injury, but ideally, those five steps will allow your body to do the healing and not re aggravate the injury.




That was quite insightful. ill keep that in mind. thanks :D

UpSideDownCarl
07-10-2015, 04:34 AM
Oh, I guess, one more detail: for sports related injuries acupuncture has to do with reduction of pain as it works directly on the nervous system. But it can also get a habitually tight muscle--a muscle in spasm--to really relax and lengthen. And the mechanics of the joint could actually improve as a result. So it acts on the nervous system but could get some of the 5th stage to happen on its own.

shaolinTT
07-10-2015, 06:34 AM
Yes, it has worked well for me. When I "twisted some muscles" on a few occasions, acupuncture and suction cups helped a lot.

Der_Echte
07-10-2015, 11:25 AM
It is hard to prove wheter acupunctre works or not on injuries. Some injury recovers itself, using or not using acupuncture makes no difference. Some injury can never be cured by acupuncture alone. Most of the time, acupuncture gives "mental comfort" which helps the recovery. From my personal expereience, here is how my 2 years long injury get cured in 2 week:

1. Massage the injured area by a medical expert. I was massaged daily for 15 days in a Hospital in Beijing.
2. Electrifying the injured area. A doctor conncted a machine to my wrist after the massaging.
3. Spray made from Chinese herbs. I spray the area 3 times a day.

And magic happened after 2 weeks. The injury stayed the same for 2 years before the treatment.
BTW, the western doctors are nearly useless treating this type of injury.
Hope it helps.

M-Cai... What???!!! DON'T trust western doctors? They don't know what they are doing?

Are you trying to be a bigger trouble maker than me???!!!

Aren't we supposed to believe everything a doctor says, because he study 8 yrs and intern for at least half of that and wears a white coat? Shouldn't we blindly take the medicines he prescribes (to get him and drug company rich) (then richer by continued use and switch to new drug) then believe him/her when they say it isn't working because we gotta try a new experimental expensive drug?

Are you making Urself a huge target for the New World Order Police?

Haha dude, you just slammed the industry righteously and deserve a small award for your attitude of independent thinking and desire to sort out and toss out the bullcrap. Your way of thinking that the body can heal itself if allowed and supported is new thinking (really proper ancient thinking) and the medical industry cannot allow it if the majority think that and refuse to pay for needless drugs.

Great majority of issues one can doctor themselves if they have any understanding of what is going on. In this case, I do not know all the circumstances, but I feel the same way as you about Dan's injury that it either required more laying off the heavy training to allow it to recover enough to resume the load or there was other things needed to be done to complete the recovery. Only Dan knows his body better than any of us and Dan looks to be one with good judgement and open/independent mind.

Our medical industry as it is currently structured exists to generate money more than it exists to serve us and heal us. A drug often only cures the condition of our fat wallet and treats a symptom. Very few in the industry have a deep understanding of how things work together on the big picture and are not very well trained in nutrition at all.

The working relationship many docs have with their hospitals or medical group prevent them from utilizing methods that really work (and often cost very little). The ones who want to do right are kept in check. Such a doc would get called a crazy loon for telling a client to eat sprouted beans/seeds for months to stop, reverse, and cure a slow onsetting blindness... or would be outcast for giving IVs of 20,000 mg sodium ascorbate (salty Vitamin C) for a severe flu or pneumonia of other pathological condition. (Vita C stops virus from reproducing and immune system takes care of getting rid of the rest)

A convential doc told my wife she had to take a PPI drug (Protein Pump Inhibitor - a very commonly prescribed drug for heartburn) to treat her heartburn and told her that the heartburn is coming from too much stomach acid. The drugs for this are very addictive and keep the person taking them to keep the condition down, but they are nasty side effect and get you hooked on other drugs later to treat side effects. That caused me to learn about the root cause and voilla, wife had problem with TOO LITTLE stomach acid and TOO MUCH pathological bacteria. Her "Good" bacteria and the bad got wiped out when she had to take several days intestine flush solution for a scope to examine her inners for bad cancer growth and tumors. In the following months, she couldn't rebuild her gut flora back and the pathological bacteria grew more, since it feeds on sugar, processed/refines grains, and the additives in just about ALL our food. We started to make our own Kefir, yogurt and fermented veggies that contain a boatload of probiotics (good bactera). A month later, next to no issues with heartburn. If she continued down the road of the meds, she prolly woulda been a zombie forking over hundreds of dollars a month to medical industry to get "treated" my modern medicine. This happens to at least 20 million in USA alone. My estimate is very conservative.

This is one common example of how it works. (for them, not for us)

I applaud Dan (and OP) for looking into root cause and how to heal away from conventional system.

At the end of the day, it is up to us to know ourselves and the bigger picture and do right for ourselves, relying on conventional medical system is a sure way to get drugged and robbed repeatedly.

UpSideDownCarl
07-10-2015, 12:13 PM
I guess this information may be worthwhile. A lot of the time people don't know the difference between the words HEAL and CURE.

I will explain the two. You have a particular infection and it is bad and you go to a doctor and the doctor prescribes some fancy antibiotic. The antibiotic Kills the infection and you no longer have the infection so you are cured. End of story (sort of). Der_Echte can add a bunch of info about how you could have used a certain amount of vitamin C to..... well I don't want to give away the next part until I define healing.

So, you have a broken arm. You go to the doctor. They set the bone, put things in place. And then they put a cast on and tell you to come back in a few weeks to see how things are going. In this case the Doctor does not cure the condition. He/she can't. What they do is set things up so you can't make the condition worse, you can't move the bone out of place (hopefully, or at least if you are intelligent) because it has something to hold it in place. Then your body does the reparation of the bone. Bone grows, it bonds back together. The bone at the break, when it is fully HEALED, will be stronger than it was before the break even if it is not exactly the same shape. So healing is something your body does over time if you create the circumstances to NOT CONTINUE to re-aggrivate the condition.

Der_Echte's example of the flora in his wife's stomach is a great example of them figuring things out and doing just that. They turned the situation in the right direction to get enough probiotic bacteria in her stomach to reduce the bad flora. At a certain point her body took over and healed the rest of the condition.

Where certain kinds of conditions get out of control is when we don't listen to the needs of our bodies and in modern culture this is not usually encouraged so it is rare that someone knows how to do that internal listening that is old school wisdom, I mean really old school wisdom. :)

Here is a somewhat extreme and very silly example of the not listening thing and what can happen. Back when I was a professional ramp skater, wait, did I just say that????, I had a friend from New Zealand who was a pro who broke his arm. Of course the doctors gave him a cast and all that I described above. But he didn't want to stop skating. And of course when you are skating a 12 foot vert ramp, sometimes you fall. Every few months the doctors kept giving him a new cast and telling him to stop skating. By the end of 3 or 4 days, the cast didn't look much like a cast. And after 9 months he had this weird, shriveled arm with this ridiculous thing that looked like a really dirty sock on his arm. The last time I saw him before I went to the circus in 1995, he still had that cast on. Hopefully he wised up and stopped skating for long enough for the bones to heal. But he probably did permanent damage that will never be repaired by creating the circumstance where the cast didn't stop him from re-damaging the injury and preventing the body from healing the bone.

Many injuries, the body can just heal if you create the right circumstances. Clearly, this is my field. I help people get out of their own way and help them get their body to heal. But Der_Echte taught me a few things when I got pneumonia a few months ago. :)

UpSideDownCarl
07-10-2015, 12:21 PM
And for those interested: what I meant by ramp skater:

7636

That is me, circa 1995 just before I went to the circus.

Der_Echte
07-10-2015, 01:15 PM
Oh, we also put a little sea salt on food to ensure enough acid to digest food. Sometimes Organic Apple Cider Vinegar too.

Concept is that the person affected is often in the best position to know what feedback the body is giving the person. Modern medicine is all about blindly prescribing drugs that MIGHT treat a symptom or condition, but never really figure out what is causing the condition and address it on that end. Often, the drugs are either useless ineffective, or help a symptom, but cause a LOT of harm and later require other drugs to offset that, then one is in a cycle of drug-induced mania. This is happening in USA for both physical and mental treatment in HUGE numbers an it doesn't take much common sense to see who/what benefits in terms of money and power.

Getting back to the principle that the body can heal itself given the chance once removed from what caused the condition (and immediate stabilization) is a concept long lost in modern medical practice. It USED to be the guiding principle before the TV era. No, TV didn't get our current system, but it sure helped brain wash the populace with all the high speed shows involving docs doing amazing stuff with surgery and drugs, which are often not needed.

This winter was real brutal for me and a lot of the forum already knows I couldn't really go outside and do much for 4-5 months. (Hard to do if there is a meter of snow falling and temps are -30.) I got a real bad upper arm / shoulder tendon tear (likely a bad grade 2 rotator cuff tear) from shoveling snow, starting engine pull cranks, pushing cars, or whatever, I got injured real bad, nearly tore the whole tendon smooth off. A really good chunk of people with this injury are persuaded to get surgery, often arthroscopic, where there is a tiny cut and a metal tool with a camera is inserted to help rearrange and sew up the injury site.

Often, these "Scope" devices are very difficult to keep free of pathological bacteria, and the stuff they use to sanitize them doesn't kill ALL the bad stuff, it just toughens it up to be resistant to every way to kill it, including just about every anti-biotic out there. MANY pro athletes get a routine procedure done and get a very long lasting and difficult to cure strep infection. Hospitals breed these kind of bacteria and the use of antibiotics in our livestock and food supply worsens this for us.

Short of it was I flat out refused to go for surgery, even if it would be free of financial cost to me as a member of the military. The REAL costs to my body and life were not worth it. The rehab and recover time for that procedure was similar to what it would be if I treated it on my own.

I did exactly what Carl said and refused to stop doing things to aggravate the injury. OK, just putting on pants or tucking in a shirt re-injured it, but i also tried to do a couple TT tourneys, which was absolutely the wrong answer.

Once I stopped doing the tourneys and quick using right arm to put on pants and waited a few weeks, I started to use Far Infared Heat device to stimulate more blood flow and after a few weeks, I had a LOT of progress. I began strengthening exercises at that point and with continued treatment of FIH it got toe the point where it didn't trouble me to put on pants and I recovered a good deal of range of motion.

I am now at the stage where I can play if i do not extend my arm and rotate it violently on shoulder joint and keep my bio mechanics in order. I think if i continue what I am doing, I will be 90% healed by Christmas. Tendons do not receive a lot of blood normally. These things take forever to get 100%, especially if we over-do it along the way, we sometimes cannot help ourselves wanting to go out there and compete or just enjoy. Sometimes just every day activities interfere.

Der_Echte
07-10-2015, 01:25 PM
As for pneumonia, right now I got a virus that is trying to get me serious upper respiratory viral infection, it starts out as a virus affecting body, and it moves to the throat area, then conquers upper respiratory area, that is when it really takes over.

Your signs are the body pain/weakness and how the throat feels. Vitamin C has really stopped it from taking over and my body is getting rid of the fallout on its own. Normally, this thing would have had me bedridden for days (like in past) but I feel body working to get rid of it all and NOT taking too strong a hold in my lungs.

If I let it go and saw a conventional doc, he woulda surely given me anti-biotics that work or not work until he got one that the secondary infection would finally go away... but at what cost? Those antibiotics would REALLY wreck any "Good" bacteria in my body so that after I recover, given standard "Western" diet of over-processed foods with refined grams/sugars & added nasty chems that my entire gut flora would be a total wreck and any pathological bacteria would move on in to take over. End result would be my health WAY worse off and then doc would get me on more meds to address it.

This happens EVERYWHERE and EVERY day MILLIONS of times a day in my country.

Der_Echte
07-10-2015, 01:33 PM
If I treated my child successfully like this and returned him/her to school, I would be accused of criminal wrong-doing in my country by the school district attorney. :D Even if my approach to healing and curing the problem was effective and safe.

This is the degree to which over 99% percent (my own estimation and I believe it to be conservative number) has been wrongly educated and influenced by media and professionals over time in my country.

That is why I applaud Dan and the OP (and esteemed new trouble maker M-Cai !!) for thinking the way they do and why I went into long explanations to support that way of thinking.

Der_Echte
07-10-2015, 01:53 PM
And for those interested: what I meant by ramp skater:

7636

That is me, circa 1995 just before I went to the circus.

That is why Carl is Upside Down so much...

UpSideDownCarl
07-10-2015, 02:20 PM
That is why Carl is Upside Down so much...

Well, UpSideDownCarl might be because of this as well:

7637

7638

7639

7640

But really, it is that way of thinking that sees things from the other side. Like, what I explained in the idea of the stages you need to do to HEAL an injury. Most people don't think from the perspective of how to get the body to do the healing, how you set the circumstances up to let the body do its thing. Too often people think there has to be a pill and a cure without wanting to think of what they can do to stop causing the problem. So, really, I think I am RightSideUpCarl. But it is UpSideDown from how everyone else seems to think.

In my field, I am often a lone voice of sanity in sea of fools who seem to tell you you have to keep doing what caused your injury to get better. One time I told a friend who was a Yoga Teacher (that is sort of what I do but I am a renegade), I told her she had to stop doing ______(blank) to let her body heal. She had a sacrum injury--a hyper-mobility of her sacrum--from--go figure, with yoga--stretching too much and going too far. So I told her she had to consciously go significantly less far in forward-bending, back-bending, side-leans, twists and anything that stretched her hips. Now she was already flexible. And her goal in her practice was to have no joints and no bony restrictions so her body could move like a rubber replica. The problem was, she had bones and joints and she was damaging them by going to far and pushing too hard to go even farther.

Several years later she admitted to me that what I told her made her mad and upset for a few years but then things go so bad that she had to listen to me. She had no choice. I was the only one who had turned things UpSideDown and given her the real information. All the rest of her yoga teacher friends who thought they knew what they were doing kept telling her to stretch it out more. That she would break down the restrictions that were holding her back.

So, from this perspective of why I am UpSideDownCarl, and from how Der_Echte sees things from his own unique perspective and can find alternative avenues for helping uncover his body's own healing potential, PERHAPS, Der_Echte is really UpSideDownDer_Echte!!!!!

hahahahaha

By the way, I say I teach yoga because it is easier than explaining what I really do. And people wouldn't understand it or find me if I said I did what I really do. What I do is a creative approach to human alignment and helping people with whatever is going on with them whether that is physical conditions or mental baggage.

One of my clients has a back problem. Whenever I work with him, if his back is bothering him at the beginning, it is not at the end. But one day, a few weeks after I started working with him, I asked him if he had any idea what he does in his life that might cause it. He said: "Nope! Sometimes it is fine and then one day I just wake up and it is bad again." So I asked him a bunch of questions about how he sleeps and gave him a homework assignment of trying to sleep on one side, the other side, stomach and back and to see how each felt to HIS BACK. He of course ignored me until a few months later he was on a trip and his back got bad enough that he couldn't ignore that his favorite sleeping position was hurting his back. Now he doesn't sleep that way anymore and has not had any back problems since he switched how he was sleeping. That is really what I do. But I just present the information and hope that the people can put the pieces together because it means more that way.

UpSideDownCarl
07-10-2015, 05:21 PM
So, acupuncture could be part of regimen to help a TT shoulder injury depending on what the injury is. But you may have to lay off from TT for a while while doing it, if it is helping.

It is worth noting that western medicine is good at some things. One of them is diagnosing a problem. For problems that are harder to figure out they have tests that can sometimes help figure out the actual issue. But, not always.

And where western medicine falls short, as Der_Echte has eloquently addressed, is their recommendations for treatment are not always in the best interest of the patient, but are always in the best interest of the hospitals, the doctors and more importantly, the pharmaceutical companies. It is unfortunately about a merry-go-round of money for them and of bankruptcy for any but the wealthy.

Der_Echte
07-10-2015, 05:31 PM
I am proud to be considered Upside Down and Backwards.

UpSideDownCarl
07-10-2015, 05:44 PM
I am proud to be considered Upside Down and Backwards.

Especially when UpSideDown and BackWards from everyone else is really RightSideUp and ForWards for real. :)

amekun
07-11-2015, 11:35 AM
wow thanks guys for the input :) I learned a lot today ^.^

amekun
07-15-2015, 02:09 PM
Just want to let everyone know
i just had my 1st acupuncture session 3 days ago
it was nerve wrecking T.T

my shoulder and knees are doing quite well
light exercises for it as well

UpSideDownCarl
07-15-2015, 03:45 PM
it was nerve wrecking T.T

Can you explain what that means? I am not quite sure.

Hope the acupuncture sessions help.


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Der_Echte
07-15-2015, 03:59 PM
I think the ( T.T ) is kind like a text version of smiling and he is being slightly sarcastic and wry. Nerve Wrecking and sticking needles next to nerves... think it is a play on the words and subtle funny.

aznalanx32
07-15-2015, 04:30 PM
Drugs are basically Herbs! Feel this is a Thread for the older folks. :cool:

Der_Echte
07-15-2015, 05:16 PM
Herbs and modern drugs are SO DIFFERENT in composition and concept. I will post one article to illustrate.

Herbs (if you know them and whee to find them) are natural, effective for the right things, and are almost free.

Modern medicine is centered around a diagnosis that costs a lot of money and involves the prescription of of moderately or insanely expensive drugs that one is supposed to take for LIFE, then take moar drugs to counter the side effects and we could argue the effectiveness of drugs healing and curing.

Look at treatment for Hepatitis in modern medicine, the push over the last 15yrs plus is for drugs that cost upwards of $1000 USD for ONE pill. All the while, it has been known that taking Vitamin C to saturation levels for a spell can reverse and cure the thing... and Vitamin C costs very little.

Look at the articles for..

Modern recommendations for Hep C... http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/11/19/hepatitis-c-part-one.aspx http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/12/30/256885858/-1-000-pill-for-hepatitis-c-spurs-debate-over-drug-prices http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/12/30/256885858/-1-000-pill-for-hepatitis-c-spurs-debate-over-drug-prices

And for vita C treatment... http://www.doctoryourself.com/hepatitis.html http://www.doctoryourself.com/hepatitis.html

amekun
07-16-2015, 01:14 PM
[QUOTE=UpSideDownCarl;116650]Can you explain what that means? I am not quite sure.

Hope the acupuncture sessions help.




(T.T) is an emoticon kinda like a :)

but if thats not what your looking for here is what happened to me:

Went inside to the acupuncture place. Filled out a form, what type of acupuncture that i wanted(Pain and sports rehab, General health etc..) i went for the pain&sports rehab. It went to a Q&A portion, he touched my shoulder and knee checking my different muscles, he puts pressure and i said "Ouch". he asked me if i play table tennis and said yes. i asked him how did he know, he mentioned that certain muscles are developed and such, my side muscles forgot the muscle terms were good. and then he asked me to take off my top and pants, laid over the massage area. Took an alcohol pad and wiped the target areas. he took out the needles, packed and sterile, opened it in front of me. there was a lot of needles,12 on my shoulder, 2 near the backside of my elbow, and 8 on my knee(If memory serves me correctly). He then mentions muscles names that are connected to the problem area and he took those needle and hammers them in with his finger. For every muscle name, one needle. It went like, (Muscle name, insert needle, pak pak pak pak, then twists them, if i cringe in pain he stops). His quickness in doing acupuncture is what made me nervous since its my first time. it didnt even take him long to put all the needles in. The needles are like a hair strand. very thin. No blood in insertion. If i were to describe the needles after insertion, it would be like, after the skin layer there is a spike inside for the muscle, if you move you would feel your muscles getting poked.(Idk if that made any sense but that is how i felt). The needles are in place, then he brings a heater and aims it at the problem areas to improve circulation. after every 5-10 minutes, he would go back and twists all the needles again. after 40 minutes has passed, he took an alcohol pad and started removing the needles. Wiped the area again with the alcohol pad. and after that he massaged the areas connected to the muscle that causes me pain. I believe its like B muscle hurts, A and C are connected and a part of B, he would massage A and C to loosen up B making it less tense and relaxed. and the last 10 minutes, he gave me exercises that would help improve my shoulders and knees. my problem with my shoulder is a minor front ligament(idk the name).

Then Before i left i saw 2 degrees, BS in Chinese Acupuncture, and Masters(If memory serves me correctly but i do remember seeing 2 degrees) in Physiology.



well thats how it went for me.

amekun
07-16-2015, 02:27 PM
I think the ( T.T ) is kind like a text version of smiling and he is being slightly sarcastic and wry. Nerve Wrecking and sticking needles next to nerves... think it is a play on the words and subtle funny.

you saw right through me ;)

just added a pun in there

The (T.T) means its a Crying emoticon

UpSideDownCarl
07-16-2015, 03:57 PM
(T.T) is an emoticon kinda like a :)

Okay. When Der_Echte said that it made me understand. But having you confirm that he was correct helps. Thanks.


well thats how it went for me.

It actually sounds like you had a good acupuncturist. Do you feel it helped at all yet?


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amekun
07-17-2015, 07:25 AM
Okay. When Der_Echte said that it made me understand. But having you confirm that he was correct helps. Thanks.



It actually sounds like you had a good acupuncturist. Do you feel it helped at all yet?




Imo, yes it did. i felt my shoulder is all loose and does not tense up as much anymore. My knee feels great, i can finally get down low and bend(With knee support brace). I used to feel pain when i bend even with taping or Knee support.i did the exercises before and after TT. :)

UpSideDownCarl
07-17-2015, 08:54 AM
Imo, yes it did. i felt my shoulder is all loose and does not tense up as much anymore. My knee feels great, i can finally get down low and bend(With knee support brace). I used to feel pain when i bend even with taping or Knee support.i did the exercises before and after TT. :)

Well that is a pretty good result for one session. That is great. Glad to hear it.

dominus7
10-13-2018, 11:26 AM
One thing you should know with stuff like acupuncture, you may also have to figure out what action is causing the injury and lay off it for a couple of weeks or even a couple of months while you are doing the treatment. Like, what Dan is describing, how things felt better and then got worse, the acupuncture removed the symptoms for him, but he kept doing what was causing the problem so the symptoms came back and as he continued doing a treatment that allowed him to continue doing the actions that were causing the problem, the condition moved from the initial stage (acute) to a long term stage (chronic) and slowly, the body's pain response got more prevalent and probably the injury also progressed.

If Dan had taken a few months off training, did the acupuncture till he was pain free and then did physical therapy for about 6-8 weeks without doing TT, he might have been able to go back with a complete recovery and the injury may have not bothered him again.

But he may have also re-injured the area 6 months to 4 years down the line.

In any case, part of the point is, you have to stop doing what is causing the injury and do the things that will help the body heal the injured area.

A comedy example/analogy: if you keep taking painkiller for a head pain, but keep banging your head against a wall, causing the head pain, the head pain will continue and progress.

With back or shoulder pain, the first issue is reducing the pain. The second issue is stretching things that are tight and contributing to the pain, strengthening things that are weak and causing you to do a movement in a way where damage is occurring. The third thing is your body needs TIME to heal.

Some injuries will get better with just these three. But there are two more stages for real, full recovery.

Usually in a sports related injury that is in a joint from repetitive use, the progression goes like this. The way the action is being done (the mechanics) are causing one side of the joint to work more and get tighter. Two results are that the other side of the joint, works less and gets weaker. This causes weight to transfer through the joint, in a non-centered way. For instance, it is common for certain actions to cause the outer thigh near the knee joint to be stronger and tighter and the inner thigh to get weaker and then stretch and be too long as the stronger-tighter outer part of the knee pulls outward. Then when you are walking you will end up bearing weight on the lateral condyle of the knee, which causes a spiraling feedback loop that causes the outer quad (lateral aspect of the knee) to tighten more, the inner quad (medial aspect of the knee) to get pulled and stretched, and eventually that pulls your kneecap laterally and stops it from tracking properly.

In any case, you generally want a joint to bear weight through the center of the joint so the force is dispersed more evenly through the joint during the movement. That stuff I was describing will also cause the tighter side of the joint to wear faster.

So what is all this info about???? The last two parts of healing a sports injury should be:

1) strengthening the longer weaker side and stretching the shorter tighter side (most often the realm of physical therapy).

2) improving the mechanics so that you don't get into that bad feedback loop after the injury FEELS like it is better (neuromuscular re-patterning)

Again to list the priorities:

1) removal of pain.

2) removal of the actions that are causing the problem.

3) time to heal

4) exercises and treatment that will strengthen the weak side of the joint and lengthen the stronger, tighter side. (This is often what physical therapy will confine itself to. Not always. A good physical therapist will get a person to and do all 5 stages of recovery).

5) neuromuscular re-patterning: in English, improving the biomechanics of movement so that weight transfers through the center of the joint in the specific movement that is causing the trauma to the joint so you don't re-injure the affected area.

The fifth part is the most difficult one and is most commonly left out (unfortunately). Common ways of doing the forth stage would include identifying movements causing the problem (ideally ALL OF THEM) duplicating simulations of the movement until the improved biomechanics are patterned into muscle memory. And then, slowly re-establishing the movement in the actual situation, slowly, ensuring that the dysfunctional movement pattern does not slip back in, and then building up so the person can do the action at full speed (for the particular sport) without reverting back to the previous dysfunctional movement patter. Once the correct biomechanics are established into muscle memory, that injury usually should not recur.

This would be more important for a more serious injury like Dan's than for a less serious injury, but ideally, those five steps will allow your body to do the healing and not re aggravate the injury.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's very interesting, I have some doubts, can kinesiologist do the re patterning ? Physio therapist here is difficult to find, and is it an alternative to recover go to the gym? To strengthen the muscles and joints I mean.
I had an injury when I was working student in my shoulder because over training without warm, the coach ever told us let's warm :(,
So I spent 3 weeks with an intense pain in my arm, shoulder, back and chest, I didn't like to take any kind of pills or analgesic, so was hard, but nowadays my joints sound, when I'm stretching.

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