Rubber thickness

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On 'regular' rubbers you're right. But not in general. On Anti rubbers and LP rubbers the sponge is often used to dampen the speed. So OX LPs can actually be faster than ones with sponges (also not in general, 'cause some LPs use a 'regular' sponge and not a damping sponge.)
 
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And this topic confused me a lot, someone said the thicker the sponge is, the faster the ball are coming of the rubber, another one say the opposite, so i really can't understand it, but if i can talk by physics then there is 2 phases, and hope someone can correct me if i am wrong:

Phase 1:
If the sponge is absorbing the ball speed, then the thicker or softer the sponge is, the slower the ball speed will be generate out of it.
But if just look at only soft or only hard type of sponge, then the thickness alone will have the affect, and again, the thicker it is, the slower the ball speed will be.

Phase 2:
If the sponge is look like spring, then the thicker the sponge is, the faster the ball speed will be, because the sponge will be like a launching pad or material, it will give that catapult effect, but then we should know what kind of sponge is been used.

above is about sponge only, so not sure where is the top sheet of the rubber is placed in the equation or the effect of it.
 
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If the two thickness of rubber are made of the same material the where dos the extra energy (speed) come from when using thicker rubbers? Rubbers don't generate energy. Rubbers absorb energy.
 
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And this topic confused me a lot, someone said the thicker the sponge is, the faster the ball are coming of the rubber, another one say the opposite, so i really can't understand it, but if i can talk by physics then there is 2 phases, and hope someone can correct me if i am wrong:

Phase 1:
If the sponge is absorbing the ball speed, then the thicker or softer the sponge is, the slower the ball speed will be generate out of it.
But if just look at only soft or only hard type of sponge, then the thickness alone will have the affect, and again, the thicker it is, the slower the ball speed will be.

Phase 2:
If the sponge is look like spring, then the thicker the sponge is, the faster the ball speed will be, because the sponge will be like a launching pad or material, it will give that catapult effect, but then we should know what kind of sponge is been used.

above is about sponge only, so not sure where is the top sheet of the rubber is placed in the equation or the effect of it.


Wow tareq,

i find it quite surprising that you're askin' this kinda question, since i just read about how you were givin' recommendations on rubbers to a team member of the national cadets and national juniors team of England, and since you been askin' for recommendations for yourself just a week ago and hardly seemed to know which rubber you should pick...

Don't you think that is a bit contradictive?

Actually this leads me to two conclusions: either you're really a pro and are makin' some big time fun of us, or you don't really know what you're talkin' about and are just tryin' to be nice and polite.

Well, maybe it's just me and i'm getting you totally wrong.
In this case i'd say sorry in advance.

Well, either way, back to the topic:

Basically there is two types of sponges.

A) A 'dampening' type of sponge like it is used in Anti rubbers and some LPs

B) a sort of 'trampoline' like sponge like it is used e.g. in tenergy, mx-p and plenty other rubbers.
And:
On classic rubbers (sriver, Mark V, etc) the 'trampoline' effect is much lower than on modern type rubbers like tenergy

The dampening type of sponge is very helpful in the short game to slow down the ball's pace.

The 'trampoline' type of sponge is helpful @ uptempo game to increase the ball's pace.

On the trampoline type you could therefore say, the more thickness, the more 'trampoline' effect
On the dampening type sponge it's the opposite: the more thickness, the more damping.

But you're right on one point: the topsheet plays a role in this at well.

This is basically what's happening described in simple words, i'm no physicist to explain detailed what is happening exactly on a physically level. I guess others probably can explain that better.
 
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So in summary:

- Anti and lp's can be faster in thinner then in thicker sponges.
- Thinner regular rubbers are faster then thicker till 1.5/1.7mm.
- In general, how thicker the sponge how more spin it can create.
- Regular rubbers above 1.7mm have less controle cause they are faster and more spin sensitive.

True?
 
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Wow tareq,

i find it quite surprising that you're askin' this kinda question, since i just read about how you were givin' recommendations on rubbers to a team member of the national cadets and national juniors team of England, and since you been askin' for recommendations for yourself just a week ago and hardly seemed to know which rubber you should pick...

Don't you think that is a bit contradictive?

Actually this leads me to two conclusions: either you're really a pro and are makin' some big time fun of us, or you don't really know what you're talkin' about and are just tryin' to be nice and polite.

Well, maybe it's just me and i'm getting you totally wrong.
In this case i'd say sorry in advance.

Well, either way, back to the topic:

Basically there is two types of sponges.

A) A 'dampening' type of sponge like it is used in Anti rubbers and some LPs

B) a sort of 'trampoline' like sponge like it is used e.g. in tenergy, mx-p and plenty other rubbers.
And:
On classic rubbers (sriver, Mark V, etc) the 'trampoline' effect is much lower than on modern type rubbers like tenergy

The dampening type of sponge is very helpful in the short game to slow down the ball's pace.

The 'trampoline' type of sponge is helpful @ uptempo game to increase the ball's pace.

On the trampoline type you could therefore say, the more thickness, the more 'trampoline' effect
On the dampening type sponge it's the opposite: the more thickness, the more damping.

But you're right on one point: the topsheet plays a role in this at well.

This is basically what's happening described in simple words, i'm no physicist to explain detailed what is happening exactly on a physically level. I guess others probably can explain that better.

Thank you very much for your post.

Well, i am not a pro and i don't make fun to others even if i am right and they are wrong, but there are members who try to make fun even if they are wrong and others are right, but sometimes misunderstanding is a big problem anywhere.

I am this kind of person who can try to help even if it wasn't right help, i read a lot from everywhere, and sometimes i got information or details from somewhere then i transfer it to another, if those sources/resources are wrong then i can't do something to that, and sometimes i do something or help even wrong better than many who knows the right thing or the truth and they don't reply or away busy, but again, if i am wrong then simply correct me and help others by fixing my wrong help, but i really don't like the attitude others trying to make fun of me because i am wrong or new or whatever, and you know what? in the club there are players who are playing long time ago, and they don't have clue about rubbers or blades, so am i bad because i start to recommend or talk about rubbers and blades while i am new or still have not enough knowledge while others who are at it since a while don't bother to learn and know and understand? and when i give wrong information there is always one good thing happen, many members coming to correct, by this i can learn and know the truth or the right/correct answers, and experience is a great teacher as we say, and also we say that there are students beat their teachers/masters, how come this true if any students must shut up because they are new or still not knowledgeable?!!!

About the rubbers, it is like you just said as what i said, the :trampoline" type is actually what i called "spring" or i should say springy, and the other one is just "dampening", which i referring to "Absorbing" or "make less impact" effect, it is just something simple to understand without needing to be physicist or mathematician, even kids know those things with toys and some experiments.

My English is not that perfect or much good enough, i try to help by using another language, but honestly speaking, in many sites of different fields it sounds that people are smart enough so they don't need help from non English or our region mostly online with knowledge or details, and i really don't know if i just come here to watch and listen and do nothing, maybe even shouldn't ask, or if i ask then i shouldn't help because i am not allowed or not ready to help, if that is the case then i apologize and sorry if i recommend anything too early while i am not eligible for it, not a problem, it is nothing easier than stop helping and recommending and let others who are pro and well educated to do and i just keep reading.
 
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So in summary:

- Anti and lp's can be faster in thinner then in thicker sponges.
- Thinner regular rubbers are faster then thicker till 1.5/1.7mm.
- In general, how thicker the sponge how more spin it can create.
- Regular rubbers above 1.7mm have less controle cause they are faster and more spin sensitive.

True?

Could someone who knows what he's talkin' bout please confirm or deny this?

I guess, the unknown poster could be also right on the less-than-1.7mm thickness point.

I can't confirm that cause i stopped playing with 'thin' rubbers since i was a teenager after having heavy discussions with my coach.

(He was an old defender and played with rather thin rubbers on the fh, but on the bh an anti in 2.0mm, and most kids @training were playing rubbers in 1.0mm or 1.3mm, but when i reached a higher level i've got told from another coach who was coaching higher level players and was a both winged spin player himself, that to feel a sponge's true power & the sponge to help create more spin, it takes at least a sponge of 1.8mm or thicker.)

But i wouldn't want to have a rule change for maximum 1.7mm rubber thickness, for the same reason my former coach told me.
I just love to create a lot of spin and that thick rubber helps me.
 
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So in summary:

- Anti and lp's can be faster in thinner then in thicker sponges.

Yes, provided that the rubber sponge less bouncy than the wood, and the rubber sponge hardness not able to keep the ball from bottoming out on impact.

- Thinner regular rubbers are faster then thicker till 1.5/1.7mm.

Plausible, and again makes me wonder, why thin sponge generally considered as more controllable.

The threshold may lower on harder rubber sponge, and higher on softer rubber sponge

- In general, how thicker the sponge how more spin it can create.

Yes, as long as thicker rubber equal higher dwell time. :)

- Regular rubbers above 1.7mm have less control cause they are faster and more spin sensitive.

Both yes and no. I rather say everyone got ideal sponge thickness dependent on their “arsenal”. Too far from that value makes the combi less controllable.

Troll Ma Long ang Chtchetinine by swapping blade before exhibition. ;P

True?

Warning, I am no Pro! Just a table tennis lover. :)

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Speed and Control can be deceptive and also subjective/objective paradox kinda things.

A Schlager Carbon with an early generation Tensor rubber in MAX sponge would totally FREEK OUT both pundits and progressive viewed players & coaches and elicit responses of "Coach is gotta be simply MAD to give that bat to a new player, let alone a seasoned veteran !!!" and the like. YET, Korean coaches "advise" (cough TELL cough) newer players to get this setup. WHY? We all know most Korean coaches are ex-pro or ex-elite amature players, so what gives?

At first glance, yes sure. The rebound on that sucka is something fierce and the top end on well struck ball gives the ball enough giddie up 'n go to leave a vapor trail. Sure, I get that.

HOWEVER, there is something else to consider...

On directly struck balls with a forward stroke, this setup is very linear and you know exactly what you are getting. Feeling is crisp and direct, very good (but very short dwell) rebound and feedback on such a stroke is excellent. So, basically, this setup is outstanding for players who want to use a 30% power stroke to make very fast drives close to the table and to finish loose balls. There is almost no other combination to accomplish this task in TT. Korean coaches will spaz out if a player tries to learn topspin in hiz/her early days. It is forever making 1000 drives close to the table at high speed bang bang using good stance and 1/3 power over and over again. Coaches are seriously deep into keeping newer players stuck in this mode until they show they can make 10,000 such drives in a row without a miss.

That is Korean amature TT player growth in a nutshell.

The Korean coaches are doing it with a purpose. These coaches are not clueless chumps. Before Shakehand Insanity took over the peninsula, it was THICK 1-Ply OFF+++ J-Pen bats with an even bigger emphasis on FH drive close to the table.

What they do flies in the face of convention, but the system works. What would LOOK like total uncontroled chaos is actualy exactly the right thing to learn from.
 
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Now about thin sponged inverted rubbers. The blade plays a huge part as well. You cannot get a ALL class flexy blade and expect to rip it with a thin sponged rubber, but with a more solid stiffer blade that is ALL+ or higher ave speed... different story.

Without a speed meter, I wouldn't know the speed difference from adam. However, in my short time being an internet fraud, (Carl and PP Holic know the joke behind this) I have played vs players using different sponges and on SMASHES, the speed difference is pretty darned difficult to discern. I would say it is a tick slower, but what the heck, a close to teh table smash that is 3-5 kph slower is still pretty darned fast and by-ya anywayz.

What thin sponge does is improve the feel and feedback of directly struck balls (both soft returns and well struck drives), and lower spin topspin shots impacted just off center with less than max force. (say a decent topspin that is short of the spin on a loopdrive or a connecting shot) On these types of shots, the control and feel/feedback of a thinner sponged rubber (say 1.7 to 1.9) is superior. This supports the feeling of control and I believe there is something to it.

What thin sponge really sucks at is the kind of loop where you are using the topsheet to wrap around the ball and the sponge to shoot it out. There isn't much sponge to work with and you get less spin making your impact like this. So, there is much less spin on that impact and it is the spin that allows a stronger impact and therefore allows a player to control that medium fast to fast topspin heavy spin shot. So I believe a thin sponged rubber of 1.9 or less is significantly less controllable for that shot, which just happens to be the main rally and attacking shot for the great majority of attacking topspin inverted rubber players.

That sets up the argument for control of max sponged rubbers. The absolute best for that shot. On drives and smashes and some in between shots, less feel/feedback and less than optimal performance, but still controllable enough. A MAX sponged rubber allows the player to impart maximum pace to the shot while the spin offers the control to do this. Thinner sponged rubbers do not off this. Thinner sponged rubbers are superior on flatter shots by a huge margin.

You see zero top pros who are topspin attackers use thin sponged rubbers and there is a good reason behind it.
 
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Thank you very much for your post.

Well, i am not a pro and i don't make fun to others even if i am right and they are wrong, but there are members who try to make fun even if they are wrong and others are right, but sometimes misunderstanding is a big problem anywhere.

I am this kind of person who can try to help even if it wasn't right help, i read a lot from everywhere, and sometimes i got information or details from somewhere then i transfer it to another, if those sources/resources are wrong then i can't do something to that, and sometimes i do something or help even wrong better than many who knows the right thing or the truth and they don't reply or away busy, but again, if i am wrong then simply correct me and help others by fixing my wrong help, but i really don't like the attitude others trying to make fun of me because i am wrong or new or whatever, and you know what? in the club there are players who are playing long time ago, and they don't have clue about rubbers or blades, so am i bad because i start to recommend or talk about rubbers and blades while i am new or still have not enough knowledge while others who are at it since a while don't bother to learn and know and understand? and when i give wrong information there is always one good thing happen, many members coming to correct, by this i can learn and know the truth or the right/correct answers, and experience is a great teacher as we say, and also we say that there are students beat their teachers/masters, how come this true if any students must shut up because they are new or still not knowledgeable?!!!

About the rubbers, it is like you just said as what i said, the :trampoline" type is actually what i called "spring" or i should say springy, and the other one is just "dampening", which i referring to "Absorbing" or "make less impact" effect, it is just something simple to understand without needing to be physicist or mathematician, even kids know those things with toys and some experiments.

My English is not that perfect or much good enough, i try to help by using another language, but honestly speaking, in many sites of different fields it sounds that people are smart enough so they don't need help from non English or our region mostly online with knowledge or details, and i really don't know if i just come here to watch and listen and do nothing, maybe even shouldn't ask, or if i ask then i shouldn't help because i am not allowed or not ready to help, if that is the case then i apologize and sorry if i recommend anything too early while i am not eligible for it, not a problem, it is nothing easier than stop helping and recommending and let others who are pro and well educated to do and i just keep reading.

Well first of all it's good to know you're not a pro in disguise pulling my leg constantly... :) It wasn't my intention to be offensive to you. I just got taught to speak openly, which has already brought me into stressful Situation 'cause some people couldn't handle that.

Myself i don't really like talking about things i hardly know anything about.
I'd rather talk about things that i've experienced myself, cause that gives me a more solid foundation in a discussion.
That's why you would hardly find any comments of me on threads about LP, SP and so. I hardly know anything about that, i'm more into spin.

But this behaviour is actually a 'rule' i've made up for myself and i shouldn't be expecting that from others. And besides, the world would be so boring if everyone was the same.
So you're quite right:
A little help is way better than no help at all. So there sure isn't anything wrong being polite. Actually the world needs more of that instead of arguing over and over...
So don't feel held back by my remarks. Just post whatever comes to your mind. Who am i to judge? Someone else might find my postings wrong as well.
I especially liked your comment when you've been asking what defines a good backhand on that other thread. That was a real good post, buddy.
 
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Now about thin sponged inverted rubbers. The blade plays a huge part as well. You cannot get a ALL class flexy blade and expect to rip it with a thin sponged rubber, but with a more solid stiffer blade that is ALL+ or higher ave speed... different story.

Without a speed meter, I wouldn't know the speed difference from adam. However, in my short time being an internet fraud, (Carl and PP Holic know the joke behind this) I have played vs players using different sponges and on SMASHES, the speed difference is pretty darned difficult to discern. I would say it is a tick slower, but what the heck, a close to teh table smash that is 3-5 kph slower is still pretty darned fast and by-ya anywayz.

What thin sponge does is improve the feel and feedback of directly struck balls (both soft returns and well struck drives), and lower spin topspin shots impacted just off center with less than max force. (say a decent topspin that is short of the spin on a loopdrive or a connecting shot) On these types of shots, the control and feel/feedback of a thinner sponged rubber (say 1.7 to 1.9) is superior. This supports the feeling of control and I believe there is something to it.

What thin sponge really sucks at is the kind of loop where you are using the topsheet to wrap around the ball and the sponge to shoot it out. There isn't much sponge to work with and you get less spin making your impact like this. So, there is much less spin on that impact and it is the spin that allows a stronger impact and therefore allows a player to control that medium fast to fast topspin heavy spin shot. So I believe a thin sponged rubber of 1.9 or less is significantly less controllable for that shot, which just happens to be the main rally and attacking shot for the great majority of attacking topspin inverted rubber players.

That sets up the argument for control of max sponged rubbers. The absolute best for that shot. On drives and smashes and some in between shots, less feel/feedback and less than optimal performance, but still controllable enough. A MAX sponged rubber allows the player to impart maximum pace to the shot while the spin offers the control to do this. Thinner sponged rubbers do not off this. Thinner sponged rubbers are superior on flatter shots by a huge margin.

You see zero top pros who are topspin attackers use thin sponged rubbers and there is a good reason behind it.

Big thanks to 'the real' on sharing his thoughtful insights.
 
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You see zero top pros who are topspin attackers use thin sponged rubbers and there is a good reason behind it.

Great post. Even though I only left the last paragraph, I am referencing the whole post. Just figured I would save space. But this post is worth reading, rereading, and then hitting the like button on it.


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What thickness has the most controle for pushing with backspin?
Back spin push can be both a block and a chop, so,

For Tackiness Chop class rubber such as Giant Dragon Submarine and Donic Slice,

1.3 mm to 1.8 mm. :)

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Somehow i feel that those pips out rubbers are designed for slowing the ball speed or change its movement or whatever, and if we add the sponge thickness then it will be like mixed effects due to of sponge types and sponge thickness, but in general pips out rubbers are depending on the top sheet [the pimples], and that is why you see some pips out without sponge as well.

Sure the blade has an effect on the whole image, but we have to fix one factor, if we use different blades with different rubbers for different strokes then we can't find out accurately about the blade characteristics or the rubbers, this is how we learnt mostly in science to fix one factor or more with 1-2 variables at most to find out its physical or whatever characteristics.

For me, if i will go with pips out let's say LP, then i will prefer to use XO or thin sponge up to 1.7mm, so the rubber or top sheet can be closer to the blade surface and it will generate more speed for the rubber specially if it is a hard blade, the pips out slower the ball if i understand it correcting, so better to have something harder in beneath to give some or little speed to the ball.

Again, i am talking about just the speed of the ball moving in a path or line or whatever you call it, not talking about spin.
 
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Somehow i feel that those pips out rubbers are designed for slowing the ball speed or change its movement or whatever, and if we add the sponge thickness then it will be like mixed effects due to of sponge types and sponge thickness, but in general pips out rubbers are depending on the top sheet [the pimples], and that is why you see some pips out without sponge as well.

Even though there are MANY different versions of SP, MP, and LP they can for the sake of simplicity share traits and concepts.

Short pips (with sponge. Heck, OX SP is illegal) are used for offense to hit through medium topspin easier and hit through underspin. It is easier to receive serves and blocking has more variations with more forgiveness. It is easier to chop and kill spin with the right hand pressure. It is easier to absorb the incoming spin and speed with the right touch, so that makes blocking off the bounce at angles more effective. It is possible to generate heavy spin with max sponge, some players can generate considerable spin, but not as much as inverted. A player can play offensive, passive, or defensive using SP w/sponge. More sponge gives more pace on drives/hits and more spin on chops, but thinner sponge gives better feel (and the sense of control) on more direct non-grazing shots like a block, a hit and also gives a slower feel to a chop that has a direct impact with a downward swing at impact.

Medium pips are the middle ground, they can do all of the middle stuff SP does with better feel and control, but the extreme stuff less controlable. Easier to hit through spin except extreme heavy spin. Easier to receive serves short.

LP with sponge is for manipulating the spin on chops, that is the best thing it does. It can receive short serves safely too. OX (no sponge) LP is for punching close to the table, although a classical defense chop is still possible, also possible to kill spin. Hits with OX are not very fast. Good ability to direct impact punch underspin to turn it into a light topspin drive. Retrieving also possible, but not as good as sponge inverted.
 
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Even though there are MANY different versions of SP, MP, and LP they can for the sake of simplicity share traits and concepts.

Short pips (with sponge. Heck, OX SP is illegal) are used for offense to hit through medium topspin easier and hit through underspin. It is easier to receive serves and blocking has more variations with more forgiveness. It is easier to chop and kill spin with the right hand pressure. It is easier to absorb the incoming spin and speed with the right touch, so that makes blocking off the bounce at angles more effective. It is possible to generate heavy spin with max sponge, some players can generate considerable spin, but not as much as inverted. A player can play offensive, passive, or defensive using SP w/sponge. More sponge gives more pace on drives/hits and more spin on chops, but thinner sponge gives better feel (and the sense of control) on more direct non-grazing shots like a block, a hit and also gives a slower feel to a chop that has a direct impact with a downward swing at impact.

Medium pips are the middle ground, they can do all of the middle stuff SP does with better feel and control, but the extreme stuff less controlable. Easier to hit through spin except extreme heavy spin. Easier to receive serves short.

LP with sponge is for manipulating the spin on chops, that is the best thing it does. It can receive short serves safely too. OX (no sponge) LP is for punching close to the table, although a classical defense chop is still possible, also possible to kill spin. Hits with OX are not very fast. Good ability to direct impact punch underspin to turn it into a light topspin drive. Retrieving also possible, but not as good as sponge inverted.

Great details, thank you very much!!!
 
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Even though there are MANY different versions of SP, MP, and LP they can for the sake of simplicity share traits and concepts.

Short pips (with sponge. Heck, OX SP is illegal) are used for offense to hit through medium topspin easier and hit through underspin. It is easier to receive serves and blocking has more variations with more forgiveness. It is easier to chop and kill spin with the right hand pressure. It is easier to absorb the incoming spin and speed with the right touch, so that makes blocking off the bounce at angles more effective. It is possible to generate heavy spin with max sponge, some players can generate considerable spin, but not as much as inverted. A player can play offensive, passive, or defensive using SP w/sponge. More sponge gives more pace on drives/hits and more spin on chops, but thinner sponge gives better feel (and the sense of control) on more direct non-grazing shots like a block, a hit and also gives a slower feel to a chop that has a direct impact with a downward swing at impact.

Medium pips are the middle ground, they can do all of the middle stuff SP does with better feel and control, but the extreme stuff less controlable. Easier to hit through spin except extreme heavy spin. Easier to receive serves short.

LP with sponge is for manipulating the spin on chops, that is the best thing it does. It can receive short serves safely too. OX (no sponge) LP is for punching close to the table, although a classical defense chop is still possible, also possible to kill spin. Hits with OX are not very fast. Good ability to direct impact punch underspin to turn it into a light topspin drive. Retrieving also possible, but not as good as sponge inverted.
Err, i think you are forgotten that sp ox is not illegal.

Dr Evil is an ox sp. :)

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