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Spitfire
07-03-2011, 08:36 PM
Hi Guys,

I help coach at my local club and we have a few upcoming Juniors that have struggled with Long Pimples in competisions.

None of the players in the Club have/play with Long Pimples.

I'm going to buy a sheet of Long Pimples and a Blade , bearing in mind i don't want to spend a lot - whitch Long Pimples/Blade could you reccommend?

Rhydian
07-03-2011, 08:54 PM
Interesting post! I'd like to do that to and hopefully train players against long pimple users :)
I'm waiting for answers to :)
Come on guys, share your knowledge with us :D

Anders
07-03-2011, 10:48 PM
by some pips that are very common, the ones that your players are most likely to face sometime in the future...

Feint Long 2 & 3 or Tibhar Grass

Maybe Dr.Neubauer Boomerang Classic

YosuaYosan
07-04-2011, 12:45 AM
Tibhar Grass DTecs is one hard LP to control for starters..
TPS Curl P1r is the same..

Use FL 2 instead..
For a smooth transition use FL 3 because its one of the grippiest LP in the market I believe..

Reiin
07-04-2011, 07:32 AM
Why do you want spinny pips? For a smooth transition? It both cost money and time just aswell go with the advanced pips from the start. I play short pimples and i started out with spectol. Not the easiest rubber to start with. Go with what u want, TSP CurlP1r is a great rubber but relies on your opponents spin, Feint Long is good for spin and you can create it yourself.

Are you going to chop far away from the table? Then you need alot of sponge or OX for close to the table blocking with control and dominance.

Here a video of our local supplier in Denmark testing the Spinlord Zeitgeist OX (no sponge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZGNR0mqRrs

Rhydian
07-04-2011, 07:57 AM
So, the Feint Long 3 for BH would be good?
And which blade? An allround blade so that you can be aggressive on your FH but also defensive? Or a complete defense blade?

Reiin
07-04-2011, 08:26 AM
You can use it on both DEF and OFF, it is up to you and your preference. If you want a really slow blade or a fast blade so that you can attack with the forehand also. There are blades made especially for this. The inner veneer is different from the forehand to backhand. So you can have an OFF forehand and a DEF backhand.

Michal_Z
07-04-2011, 04:43 PM
Good video, but I understand just two words:
Spinlord Zeitgeist ..
All around that I didnt understand :D

WiWa
07-04-2011, 04:49 PM
Isnt the Dr. Neubauer rubber forbidden now? Or is that some of their blades?

Reiin
07-04-2011, 08:32 PM
Good video, but I understand just two words:
Spinlord Zeitgeist ..
All around that I didnt understand :D

It was not meant for you to understand :) Just wanted to show you how you can play pips with no sponge.

Reiin
07-04-2011, 08:34 PM
Isnt the Dr. Neubauer rubber forbidden now? Or is that some of their blades?

No, all Dr. Neubauer products for sale now are legal. Some of their old rubbers were banned after the rule of pips with no friction was banned. Also other brands with no friction rubbers were banned.

major
07-04-2011, 10:16 PM
Go to the topspin Website www.topspintt.com
Try out Donic Akkadi L2 or Donic Piranja Formula TEC. The price is reasonable, and i don't see why you shouldn't try it with the Donic DefplayClassic Senso.

YosuaYosan
07-05-2011, 09:38 AM
Why do you want spinny pips? For a smooth transition? It both cost money and time just aswell go with the advanced pips from the start. I play short pimples and i started out with spectol. Not the easiest rubber to start with. Go with what u want, TSP CurlP1r is a great rubber but relies on your opponents spin, Feint Long is good for spin and you can create it yourself.

Are you going to chop far away from the table? Then you need alot of sponge or OX for close to the table blocking with control and dominance.

Here a video of our local supplier in Denmark testing the Spinlord Zeitgeist OX (no sponge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZGNR0mqRrs

I myself started right away with DTecs.
The reason to start with grippy pips is not just only the smooth transition. Some people are better with grippy pips and defenders need it to vary the spin easier (allrounders to). FL3 for example is used by Ruwen Filus. Why don't he use Curl P1R instead ? Answer it yourself..
However, starting right away with hard-to-control pips will reward good technique.
The bad idea to start away with advance LP is that you could get frustrated and buy another pips, which make you buy another LP.
Im not saying advanced pips or un-advancade pips here. All pips work differently and not everyone use the same pips when they are good at using pips. Ding Song the great chopper of China use one of the easiest-to-control LP because it suits him naturally.

Both way works. Just find the pips most suitable and comfortable for you.

WiWa
07-05-2011, 09:51 AM
No, all Dr. Neubauer products for sale now are legal. Some of their old rubbers were banned after the rule of pips with no friction was banned. Also other brands with no friction rubbers were banned.

Oh I see, thanks :)

Spitfire
07-05-2011, 09:26 PM
Think im going to order a sheet of

http://shop.bribartt.co.uk/rubbers/long-pimples/tibhar-grass-d-tecs.html

tried someone elses on there bat and i could play with it ( Bearing in Mind im not a Pimple player)

or does anyone have any other rubbers in mind?

azlan
07-16-2011, 11:20 AM
Long pips...it's either you love playing against them, or loathing it. Intermediate and novice players have torrid times facing them.
Here in Malaysia we have a serious problem in our hands. Pimple players who modified their rubbers, such as dunking them in gasoline and etc. Some even to great length in combining 2 different rubbers on 1 side. More often than not, they get away with it. I am utterly against these cheats. But, as long as the association does not act upon this, the cheats will continue to participate in the local tourneys. It's embarrassing to admit, but that's the truth.

Matt Hetherington
07-16-2011, 12:53 PM
Not a fan of long pips myself but I have tried Butterfly Feint II and they are not too bad. Tibhar Grass Dtecs are pretty whacky and the Grass Dtecs OX are even more messed up. A guy in our club started using Grass Dtecs OX and started beating a lot more people they are incredibly awkward as they have no sponge so pretty muchly drop the ball over the net. Depends what kind of style you are playing really.

YosuaYosan
07-17-2011, 11:53 AM
@Azlan
We also got some 'cheating' players here sir.
The modified pips (gasoline stuff) makes the ball fly weird, and the pips is somewhat bigger.. We call it 'bintik proses'.

Some don't glue long pips in the middle area of the bat, making the flight path distorted somehow..

@ModMatt
Ah, yes.. Considering you are a short pips chopper (If I'm not mistaken).
True bro, Grass DTecs needs skill to be played well :)

azlan
07-17-2011, 05:27 PM
It really is a shame Yosua. This actually dampers the development of table tennis in our region. Young players taking short cuts to progress in table tennis, not knowing that they're actually killing the art. These players usually progress to, say quarter final of a tournament, when they will be beaten by a proper TT player. They find it satisfying in a way to make life a misery to lesser players, but once they come face to face with a good player, they usually will be on the wrong side of a hiding.

Rhydian
07-17-2011, 06:00 PM
It really is a shame Yosua. This actually dampers the development of table tennis in our region. Young players taking short cuts to progress in table tennis, not knowing that they're actually killing the art. These players usually progress to, say quarter final of a tournament, when they will be beaten by a proper TT player. They find it satisfying in a way to make life a misery to lesser players, but once they come face to face with a good player, they usually will be on the wrong side of a hiding.

Well it's not only in your country where this happens... why? :(

But let's get back to topic ^^
Could someone explain me what effect the sponge has to long pimples?

YosuaYosan
07-17-2011, 06:15 PM
@Rhydian
Less passive reversal, more active reversal, more potential to wobble a ball, more attacking potential, more speed, more/less control depending how you see it..

Thats sponged lp in a nutshell :D

azlan
07-18-2011, 05:42 AM
I don't use LP or any pips rubber for that matter. By the way you described sponged LP, I would think it's all very +tive. So why some resort to doing something which is illegal? Go figure....coz I can't.

YosuaYosan
07-18-2011, 09:51 AM
They just want to have a shortcut to win against average players..
Or maybe they are too frustated to learn and understand what spin is on the ball..

Or maybe they are rebellious by nature, or maybe 'innovative'..

I dunno, but I will stick to fair play..

vietcongOX
09-03-2011, 02:11 PM
by some pips that are very common, the ones that your players are most likely to face sometime in the future...

Feint Long 2 & 3 or Tibhar Grass

Maybe Dr.Neubauer Boomerang Classic
y not try long pips vietcong ox..:)

YosuaYosan
09-03-2011, 02:12 PM
y not try long pips vietcong ox..:)

I wanna buy it :D

vietcongOX
09-03-2011, 02:29 PM
shy if sell it to u who that great as pip player...worried if pimple never be as in video.:p

YosuaYosan
09-03-2011, 02:32 PM
Oh come on sir :(
I am a natural pimple player. I use Grass D.Tecs on my backhand now :)

moriguchi2
09-04-2011, 02:50 AM
eww long pips...designed and for old men and old women

vietcongOX
09-04-2011, 05:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epjOE0zmSXI&feature=bf_next&list=ULUyKHxS4Dnyg&lf=mfu_in_order

moriguchi2
09-05-2011, 12:47 AM
where did ur friend get his national team shirt??? :)

vietcongOX
09-05-2011, 04:54 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UUuICVnw7w

UpSideDownCarl
09-05-2011, 05:28 PM
eww long pips...designed and for old men and old women

I sort of agree with this. There are places for it. There are purposes for it. I love hitting against long pips and antispin. Nothing helps my game improve more than hitting with a good trick rubber player. But what I see from people who use these rubbers, a lot of the time, it is because they just want an easy shortcut to winning. And the end result is that the people who use rubbers like that who are not higher rated players, often do not develop good strokes, good form, good habits, because the trick rubber does so much of the work for them. The trick rubber can actually slow down your development of the more important fundamental skills of Table Tennis. I read somewhere that it is a good idea for a player who wants to learn to use these kinds of rubbers for their game, not to do it until they have reached a certain level and have developed good strokes for all the basic shots of Table Tennis: pushes, chops, blocks, counter-hits, drive shots, loops and serves. And any good player should be able to do all these shots proficiently even if he specializes: an offensive player uses more offensive strokes; a defensive player uses the defensive strokes more. But you should be able to do all of them.

The higher level players who use these rubbers could use smooth rubber, because their technique is solid. However, it is also worth looking at the fact that, in the top 100 in the world there are very few pips players.

All this does not change the fact that using long pips and antispin as a training tool to help develop the skills of a player and to help them be able to deal with facing these kinds of rubbers is an excellent idea.

WiWa
09-05-2011, 08:17 PM
I sort of agree with this. There are places for it. There are purposes for it. I love hitting against long pips and antispin. Nothing helps my game improve more than hitting with a good trick rubber player. But what I see from people who use these rubbers, a lot of the time, it is because they just want an easy shortcut to winning. And the end result is that the people who use rubbers like that who are not higher rated players, often do not develop good strokes, good form, good habits, because the trick rubber does so much of the work for them. The trick rubber can actually slow down your development of the more important fundamental skills of Table Tennis. I read somewhere that it is a good idea for a player who wants to learn to use these kinds of rubbers for their game, not to do it until they have reached a certain level and have developed good strokes for all the basic shots of Table Tennis: pushes, chops, blocks, counter-hits, drive shots, loops and serves. And any good player should be able to do all these shots proficiently even if he specializes: an offensive player uses more offensive strokes; a defensive player uses the defensive strokes more. But you should be able to do all of them.

The higher level players who use these rubbers could use smooth rubber, because their technique is solid. However, it is also worth looking at the fact that, in the top 100 in the world there are very few pips players.

All this does not change the fact that using long pips and antispin as a training tool to help develop the skills of a player and to help them be able to deal with facing these kinds of rubbers is an excellent idea.

I think up to a certain level you can really lift your game using pips. It is true that in order to reach the world top you need a good allround game. But for example in national divisions (top competitions not counted) it can make a 2-3 classes difference to camouflage a weak side with pips and learn to use them well. For some people it means that their max level they can achieve can be raised using different material rubbers.

So I think pips can really improve someones level to where he/she wouldn't get with 2 smooth rubbers, but usually not up to world class level.

UpSideDownCarl
09-06-2011, 05:36 AM
I think up to a certain level you can really lift your game using pips. It is true that in order to reach the world top you need a good allround game. But for example in national divisions (top competitions not counted) it can make a 2-3 classes difference to camouflage a weak side with pips and learn to use them well. For some people it means that their max level they can achieve can be raised using different material rubbers.

So I think pips can really improve someones level to where he/she wouldn't get with 2 smooth rubbers, but usually not up to world class level.

Yes, your "level" goes up but your skill in playing has not really changed. That is sort of what I am talking about. For some people that is fine. For me, I would rather my skill and abilities go up and I don't care about ranking. :)

I have seen some players who use pips develop some bad habits from the fact that the pips do a certain amount that does not have to do with them. Things like developing bad stroke habits or footwork habits, or receiving serve habits. And the area of receiving serves, their level goes up instantly and dramatically. They do not even really need to know much about what spin is coming at them to return serves. But their level goes up.

I do also know, it does take some skill to use those rubbers. It is not just a natural transition. So I don't want to downplay that. I am just saying that there is a potential for someone who uses pips or anti-spin, to not develop certain skills because all of a sudden they are seemingly playing at a higher level because of what the rubber does to the other person rather than it being so much about them playing at a "higher level" because of what they can now do.

In some of the videos that vietcongOX has posted in a few of the threads and above, you can see that the person who is using the pips is often awkward and clumsy and is winning points because they simply blocked the ball back without having good footwork or good positioning, or bent knees or their weight balanced.

All this being said, a good player is a good player.

WiWa
09-06-2011, 07:59 AM
Yes, your "level" goes up but your skill in playing has not really changed. That is sort of what I am talking about. For some people that is fine. For me, I would rather my skill and abilities go up and I don't care about ranking. :)

I have seen some players who use pips develop some bad habits from the fact that the pips do a certain amount that does not have to do with them. Things like developing bad stroke habits or footwork habits, or receiving serve habits. And the area of receiving serves, their level goes up instantly and dramatically. They do not even really need to know much about what spin is coming at them to return serves. But their level goes up.

I do also know, it does take some skill to use those rubbers. It is not just a natural transition. So I don't want to downplay that. I am just saying that there is a potential for someone who uses pips or anti-spin, to not develop certain skills because all of a sudden they are seemingly playing at a higher level because of what the rubber does to the other person rather than it being so much about them playing at a "higher level" because of what they can now do.

In some of the videos that vietcongOX has posted in a few of the threads and above, you can see that the person who is using the pips is often awkward and clumsy and is winning points because they simply blocked the ball back without having good footwork or good positioning, or bent knees or their weight balanced.

All this being said, a good player is a good player.

I know what you mean, BUT :P

I agree that pips are used to compensate for example a weaker FH or BH. On higher levels it is not done to distract opponents or give crappy balls to them during the rally, but more like a help. If you are no good at FH looping, you can use short pips for 'slapping' if you are good at that. I think especially female players would benefit from it considering their playing style. This can actually reach a pretty high level and is very difficult to master.

I know that a lot of players 'abuse' the fact that their opponent isn't used to play against their materials and therefore lose, but there are certainly players who up their game because their skills with pips are better than with smooth rubbers. And with skills I mean for example long push or 'slapping'. It doesn't necessarily develop bad strokes, since u need proper technique to work with pips on a high level. But like I said, on lower levels it is 'abused' every now and then and on the highest level the skill of other players is almost impossible to match when u play with pips. But in between those levels is a very fair and good use of pips I think.

UpSideDownCarl
09-07-2011, 04:51 AM
I know what you mean, BUT :P

I agree that pips are used to compensate for example a weaker FH or BH. On higher levels it is not done to distract opponents or give crappy balls to them during the rally, but more like a help. If you are no good at FH looping, you can use short pips for 'slapping' if you are good at that. I think especially female players would benefit from it considering their playing style. This can actually reach a pretty high level and is very difficult to master.

I know that a lot of players 'abuse' the fact that their opponent isn't used to play against their materials and therefore lose, but there are certainly players who up their game because their skills with pips are better than with smooth rubbers. And with skills I mean for example long push or 'slapping'. It doesn't necessarily develop bad strokes, since u need proper technique to work with pips on a high level. But like I said, on lower levels it is 'abused' every now and then and on the highest level the skill of other players is almost impossible to match when u play with pips. But in between those levels is a very fair and good use of pips I think.

I agree with you.


I do also know, it does take some skill to use those rubbers. It is not just a natural transition. So I don't want to downplay that.

And what I was talking to was the people who change to pips and in a very short time their "level" has gone up without them having to do the work.

I know enough people who can play with pips or without pips, and they can play multiple styles. They have one way they most like to play and that is their game, that is what they do when they are being serious or in tournaments but they can do everything. And a player who is good, who has good technique has good technique regardless of what kinds of rubbers he/she uses. And of course the technique for playing with long pips is different than with smooth rubber.

Learning to loop with a penhold grip has definitely improved my shakehand forehand. I am sure that learning to play with pips and learning good technique with pips would be valuable from a few perspectives for a modern offensive player. Learning to do some of the things that a pips player can do with their rubber might help an offensive player see certain things including technique and tactics.

And, I have said this in many places, I love practicing against long pips and anti-spin. This helps my game improve more than anything else I do. And I am comfortable admitting that I have a hard time against people with short pips. So if I got a chance to practice against short pips more often I would take it.

azlan
09-07-2011, 05:40 AM
How true. I find that the lower ranking players who use these long pips rubbers have a problem whenever they proceed further in tournaments, coz they will be facing technically better players. These better players don't make silly mistakes, and since long pips players have restricted offensive options, they will find that it is difficult for them to earn points.

I believe that they may block looping topspins, but against fast speedy attack, with good placements, I don't think any human would be able to react that fast to block close to the table. It's humanly impossible.

fongchengloy
04-15-2012, 03:12 AM
Long pips...it's either you love playing against them, or loathing it. Intermediate and novice players have torrid times facing them.
Here in Malaysia we have a serious problem in our hands. Pimple players who modified their rubbers, such as dunking them in gasoline and etc. Some even to great length in combining 2 different rubbers on 1 side. More often than not, they get away with it. I am utterly against these cheats. But, as long as the association does not act upon this, the cheats will continue to participate in the local tourneys. It's embarrassing to admit, but that's the truth.

Agreed with you (Azlan)/ I was also told that someone even place a piece of brand new Chinese short pimple in a rice cooker and steam it before applying glue and it works; the shots are weird and not uniform. Totally cheating.

ttmonster
04-15-2012, 03:53 AM
I agree with you Carl , there are players who reach an USATT rating of 1900-2000 with pips and then get stuck there. My rating is currently a little bit over 1500 , probably I can play around 1750-1800 ...given how good I am on that day ... but I have beaten such players 3-0 just because I had a colleague with long pips and I have practised a considerable amount or time with him. With such practice the initial awkwardness with long pips goes and you kind of start to know the limitations of long pips. However, there are players at the USATT 2300 level who are very good with their long pips and have developed a lot of pips specific skills , like chop block off the bounce on loops etc which are pretty difficult to do and deal with ... so yes I guess its a mentality or approach to the game....but like the saying goes ... like you sow so you reap ;)

azlan
04-15-2012, 06:47 AM
Agreed with you (Azlan)/ I was also told that someone even place a piece of brand new Chinese short pimple in a rice cooker and steam it before applying glue and it works; the shots are weird and not uniform. Totally cheating.

That is new to me Fong:). But it seems now, they're doing a clamp down on these illegal rubbers. Though, we are still a long way to create a system to abolish these illegal set ups once in for all.

UpSideDownCarl
04-15-2012, 11:49 AM
Just to counter many things I said in this thread:

I have seen many players who use smooth on both sides and do not develop good technique. I have seen many players who use a pips setup who really work hard and go from lower levels and keep climbing and improving their technique. It really does depend on the person. There will always be those who play in what ever style with what ever setup who are just trying to win points by tricking their opponents and not trying to do the work of winning the points and improving their games. And there will always be people who don't care about winning the points so much as improving their skills.

The rubber setup you use does not really have so much to do with that. Long pips can be a great thing for people who use them. And to see a good long pips player can be amazing especially at the higher levels. :)

Der_Echte
04-15-2012, 01:45 PM
Well it's not only in your country where this happens... why? :(

But let's get back to topic ^^
Could someone explain me what effect the sponge has to long pimples?

Yeah, jokers on both sides of the fence do their dirty work, just about anything goes here in Korea at amature tourneys for bats as well.

The ones who use LP in OX without sponge generally like a fast/stiff blade and use some kind of medium soft control rubber on FH. You can assemble a bat like this very cheap. Any of the galaxy T series carbon is right up this alley. A lot of those blades are under $40 USD a blade or cheaper if you trade for one. The OX rubber doesn't matter so much as you will have to learn how to use the right angles, hit at right hight or off the bounce, and use the right blade angle/stroke direction and not so much backswing. You pretty much punch underspin off the bouce, you use soft wrist to block and receive knuckle serves, and sometimes you can sideswipe for effect. You can get by with National Pogo, a rubber under $10 USD or pretty much any Chinese LP in OX.

There are thousands of LP OX players here, many of them are O40 and O50 female players, some are very good, many are average club players. ALL of them destroy those not used to LP in OX and those who like to make the mistake of continually giving them an underspin to teh OX BH LP side. Big mistake as they simply punch with an open blade to generate a medium fast paced light to medium topspin drive well placed that goes right by you.

If you wish to make a bat to practice with your club, that is a good idea, although it will take some time for yourself to get used to the strokes, in the end, it is a good profit for you and ur club.

I have made a couple similar bats on hte cheap and sometimes at lunch use one of these OX LP bats to help get one of my KFTTC mates accustomed to playing vs an LP in OX.

WHAT DOES SPONGE DO???
Sponge gives the LP rubber some more options in manipulating spin. You can either kill spin or continue it. If you are real good, you can "Loop" with LP in max sponge, which is really pretty much a very weak loop at best, but still a topspin shot that is difficult to return if not accustomed to it. Sponged LPs are preferred by the choppers, although with the right bat angle/timing/swing, you can still chop with OX, it is just that you can manipulate the spin better and get more errors with sponged LP if you know how to use it. These players seem to like a flexy DEF+ or ALL Minus blade slightly oversized.

Good luck in your journey.

Here is a short clip of a visiting chopper doing some chops vs a good junior tiger. The woman is using Feint III in 1.0mm and Sriver on Fh on a Joo SeHyuk blade. That is the first time I have EVER seen anyone in Korea use Sriver, EVER and I have seen a thousand bats here.


http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p69/Der_Echte/?action=view&current=MVI_3675.mp4