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Bryce
07-04-2011, 01:54 PM
Hey guys. I have had this problem for quite some time. Usually when i do 3rd ball attack or an offensive forehand stroke, i usually hit the second one long as my opponent blocks it. When i trained with my coach who was playing chopping against me, he said that my second attack was too rushed and asked me to wait for 2 seconds after the ball touches the table. I tried it and it didn't really work for me so please give me your insight on this.
Thanks.

WiWa
07-04-2011, 02:56 PM
Always the highest point. That comes a little slower when ur opponent is chopping, but still the highest point is the moment ur racket should hit the ball. U should try to adapt ur attack stroke accordingly ;) xD

Bollforte94
07-04-2011, 06:47 PM
Maybe you can film yourself? then it is easier to help ;)

Rhydian
07-04-2011, 09:05 PM
Yeah, make a movie while you're playing forehand topspin. Do it from some angles so that we can see it. The movement of arm and body and of course the footwork!
It would be easier!

Advices I can give to you is that you should touch the ball at the same place (if your coach is just blocking), try to have enough space between body and ball, adjust your placement with your footwork, while doing the movement, the arm goes with the body! (important!) and everything comes back again (it would be difficult if not ^^). You should also be a bit patient and not run to the ball immediately after the rebound, but keep you in position and then go for it.
Don't be afraid if the first shots go to the net or too long. You have to adjust yourself. And finally, play first with control with the right movement and then, if control is good, you can upgrade speed without ignoring the control!!

If have questions, just ask ;)

P.S.: Even with my advices, a video would help us a lot! ;)

poltery
07-05-2011, 09:05 AM
Always the highest point. That comes a little slower when ur opponent is chopping, but still the highest point is the moment ur racket should hit the ball. U should try to adapt ur attack stroke accordingly ;) xDso sir wiwa what happens when you hit the ball on the falling point does it affect the angle of ur loop or not?

YosuaYosan
07-05-2011, 09:16 AM
Firstly, you should learn to loop off a push because usually the first attacking stroke is a loop off a push.
After the first attack, most probably your opponent will block the ball, in the other meaning, you are given a portion of the topspin you imparted.
This could be returned with a rather flat loop angle and more closed bat angle because now you are facing a topspin not a medium-heavy backspin.
Don't forget to hit the ball on the top of its bounce.

Hope this helps :)
Good luck & God bless your training.

Rhydian
07-05-2011, 12:24 PM
I found some videos which can help you.
Here's the first one: Forehand Counterhit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0KOLRMipOM

Here's the second one: Forehand Topspin against Block

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kqzzLM4jAc&feature=relmfu

Here's the last one: Forehand Topspin on a Backspin Ball

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fS6Z0I-A3dw


Hope it helps you out :D
Keep us in touch!!

azlan
07-05-2011, 06:45 PM
Hi Bryce, actually your problem is not uncommon at all. It's your timing.The 3rd ball comes to you a little quicker than you anticipated. I also believe that you have an open bat loop forehand that will definitely carry the ball beyond the table (it's okay if you are looping, taking the ball when it's lower than the table). Hitting the ball at highest point could be one of the solution (when you get really good, you can hit it on the rise). However having your bat close at approx <30degrees will help a lot. I hit the balls with my bat almost horizontal. As a result, my bat travels faster (less air friction) and the ball doesn't bounce high making my opponents having to dig the ball up, hence setting me up for the next attack.

Another reason is maybe you are standing too close to the table, inevitably reducing your reaction time. Try standing a foot or two after you serve. It's always easier to step forward to attack a ball than overcompensating by opening up your bat and moving backwards when the ball goes deep.
Try it, you'll be surprise. But always remember the golden rule of offensive FH attack, always always hit it hard..100%, no hesitations. Enjoy..

UpSideDownCarl
07-06-2011, 01:06 AM
Firstly, you should learn to loop off a push because usually the first attacking stroke is a loop off a push.
After the first attack, most probably your opponent will block the ball, in the other meaning, you are given a portion of the topspin you imparted.
This could be returned with a rather flat loop angle and more closed bat angle because now you are facing a topspin not a medium-heavy backspin.
Don't forget to hit the ball on the top of its bounce.

Hope this helps :)
Good luck & God bless your training.

My guess is that YosuaYosan has a great point here. If the initial attack is against underspin and then the second attack is against topspin you need a different angle on your bat and a different angle on your stroke. If you keep practicing third ball attack and then continuing the rally, you should start getting used to having to adjust to different spins and different kinds of shots. Hopefully, adjusting to different spins eventually becomes second nature.

That being said, those who made the comment that a video would help are right because if we can see a video of you doing this drill, then the comments can be about what you are currently doing and what you need to adjust to make the shots after the 3rd ball.

azlan
07-06-2011, 04:33 AM
Hi guys, I think Bryce have no problem looping the 3rd ball, whether it's topspin or backspin push. He has a problem when he wants to execute an attacking FH topspin, or a quick attack. It's quite an advance technique, but we must admit, there are times that we do execute 3rd ball attacks and finish a point. That's the problem that Bryce have, every time he tries to finish a point with an aggressive FH, the ball goes long.

azlan
07-06-2011, 04:41 AM
Sorry, it's me again guys. Having said the above, I'm not saying that looping is bad, just that sometimes it's nice to know that we have varieties in our arsenal. Looping will instigate a block from an intermediate opponent, but against better players, it's a queue for an attack..especially if the loop doesn't have penetration. What Bryce wants is an outright winner from his FH, which we very rarely get from looping, even from an aggressive loop.

Bryce
07-07-2011, 01:34 PM
Thks for ur advice guys. About the delievering a powerful topspin against a block, do u have a more forward brushing motion or simply hitting it? How to have more power in your shots?

WiWa
07-07-2011, 01:51 PM
I think u should go with the brushing motion which (after enough practise) involves less risk.

To gain power u could try to improve the speed u turn ur body with during the loop. If u get the timing right on pushing off ur foot, turning ur upper body, closing ur elbow and flicking ur wrist u get the maximum amount of spin and power. I'm not sure if I say this all right since I'm not English :P But this all helps to get maximum movement speed on the bat. U want this moment to be the moment ur bat touches the ball.

But against some players it is wiser to play a spinny slow topsin after they block than a powerful spin. It really depends on the opponent. If u are facing a very good blocker ur power spins will only come back faster as u hit harder. So that is something u have to keep in mind: use spin and speed wisely ;)

Bryce
07-08-2011, 07:25 AM
I'm imparting more bodily movement into my loop now. Btw, i found this video showing Ma Long's powerful loops. Anyone mine explaning it to me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owScGOAQqK0

harrybelafonte
07-08-2011, 08:06 AM
ma long beautiful forehand..

azlan
09-08-2011, 04:35 PM
Nice video Bryce, I know exactly what you mean. What ma long was doing was offensive spin, and this is where you have a problem. I am not going to over complicate the matter coz it's not.
1. Early preparations. Get into shape early before unleashing the shot, and timing is crucial.
2. Keep your body low, strong knees.
3. Brush the top of the ball, not at the back.
4. Control hit as hard as you can. You have to use your entire body.
5. Ball placements, vary it.

moriguchi2
09-08-2011, 10:59 PM
everything above this is true. what is say might be repeated but when looping back spin you want to hit the ball at the highest point or the peak of the bounce and use the backspin allready on the ball to your advantage. Its like looping topspin but u dont quite skim the top of the ball but a little lower. hope this helps

ttmonster
09-09-2011, 03:33 AM
Bryce .. from what I have heard my seniors in my club say this is a problem everybody has ..so don't worry about it ... just keep this in mind when hitting it ( offensive loop or control loop )
... I am going to go little bit forward than usual .... tell me if this helps .. it sure did help me .. but most important .. don't get disheartened easily and keep on trying :)

Shree
09-11-2011, 02:22 PM
Hey guys. I have had this problem for quite some time. Usually when i do 3rd ball attack or an offensive forehand stroke, i usually hit the second one long as my opponent blocks it. When i trained with my coach who was playing chopping against me, he said that my second attack was too rushed and asked me to wait for 2 seconds after the ball touches the table. I tried it and it didn't really work for me so please give me your insight on this.
Thanks.

With your problem every body has problem while hitting Topspin on cut ball .
I would like to suggest that if your back swing and shoulder rotation should be at speed of ball coming to you and open the bat angle almost 80 to 90 degree to the face of the ball and put your left leg forward and rotate your shoulder forward. the ball will land low .

Regards
Shreeshaila

moriguchi2
09-11-2011, 11:51 PM
regular sheet of bryce can be made alot faster and spinnier if u glue the sheets 6-7 times making the sponge thickness larger than normal. once u apply a thin layer of glue, wait for it to dry and apply another. do the same with the bat itself

Mr. RicharD
09-12-2011, 07:12 AM
Hi Bryce, I've read a few answers here and there and a lot of it's pretty counter productive. Your first question was about how to adjust your forehand loop to a block mostly a 3rd ball attack from what I read.

So in order to practice this you would need to serve topspin or deadspin with some speed on the ball so that your opponent can block it back and then you can produce a 3rd ball attack looping or driving the ball back for an attack shot.

Some key points in this scenario are:

1. Feet - make sure you are on the balls of your feet to allow yourself to be able to move into the proper position.
2. Racket Angle - make sure your angle is compensating for the spin on the ball. If there is topspin you can afford a 30-45 degree angle if there is no spin you should hit with a mostly neutral or flat angle.
3. Ball contact - you should ALWAYS hit the back of the ball. Except in cases where the ball is above your head from a bounce or lob you should never hit the top of the ball this will most likely force the ball into the net from the top spin generated. If you can imagine that the ball is a clock the top of the ball would be 12 and the back would be 3 o'clock. I recommend for top spin shots to hit between 1:30 and 2:30 for dead balls between 2:30 and 3:30 and for underspin between 3:00 and 3:30. All of these positions however would be for looping not for chopping or pushing which would go into the 4 to 6 o'clock range. Or even service which would go from 5 to 7 o'clock.
4. Power - you should never produce a shot at 100% of your power unless you have your opponent out of position or on the defensive. The best shots are made typically with about 75 - 80% of your power because they allow for great spin, speed, but most importantly accuracy.
5. Timing - when your opponent is hitting the ball you should be starting your back swing when the ball bounces on your side of the table you should be starting your forward swing and by the time the ball reaches the highest point in its bounce you should make contact with the ball.

If you wanted to practice against a block you have to pay attention to spin. Blocks can have top spin, no spin, or even a little back spin depending on the style of the block the latter of course being a chop block. But if you are hitting between 1:30 and 3:30 on the ball with your sweet spot on the paddle you should be getting some shots in on your 3rd ball attacks. Practice accuracy first by hitting at half power then slowly raise the power until you gain full control of your shots.

On to Ma Long. Some key points to his shots are:

1. Footwork - He stays on the balls of his feet to allow himself to move the quickest while getting into position.
2. Transfer of Power (Arm) - For looping the pushes he will stay low keeping his elbow at the level of the ball during his back swing. He will then make contact with the ball keeping his arm stretched out to about 150-160 degrees and at the point of contact he'll bend his arm to 90 degrees for his follow through producing more spin. He will also keep his stroke in an upward 30-45 degree angle. During his back swing he will also bend his wrist back and upon contact with the ball he'll snap it back into the normal position. For topspin loops he will keep his stroke angle in a forward and slightly upward angle around 160-170 degrees. He'll also keep his wrist in the normal position for a topspin shot.
3. Transfer of Power (Legs) - He will keep his weight towards his back leg until he starts his forward swing when the ball bounces on his side of the table. At the point of contact with an underspin shot he will shift his weight upwards and forwards to provide energy to the ball over the net. For the topspin loops he will shift his weight backwards and then forwards rather than upwards.

Wow I seem to write novels here lol. Hope this helps.

YosuaYosan
09-12-2011, 09:36 AM
Your explanation is gold sir Richard :)
Thank you good sire for the quality post.

Gotta take some note :D

Der_Echte
09-12-2011, 03:17 PM
Hey guys. I have had this problem for quite some time. Usually when i do 3rd ball attack or an offensive forehand stroke, i usually hit the second one long as my opponent blocks it. When i trained with my coach who was playing chopping against me, he said that my second attack was too rushed and asked me to wait for 2 seconds after the ball touches the table. I tried it and it didn't really work for me so please give me your insight on this.
Thanks.

Looping the second attack long is very likely caused by dropping your blade too low for the next attack, which causes the swing to be way too vertical. This comes from dropping the hitting shoulder too low. The most common reason we do this is this is how we hit the first ball, usually vs underspin. On your Fh topspin, the block will likely come back with some level of light topspin. Using a lifting stroke vs this ball carrying topspin (using the lifting attack stroke you just did vs underspin) is one sure way to loop the ball long and out and lose confidence in your attacking, which is even more of a killer in a match. Who among us wins consistantly without confidence?

The cure is to keep the second attack weight transfer forward, swing plane more forward and keep racket higher after the first attack. Two things to remember to fix this are to keep the racket above the table, like at net height after the stroke and to rotate the shoulders + waist, without dropping the hitting shoulder. (Of course you are already crouched) This will ensure that you have a better chance to use a more forward stroke at an acceptable height. This also helps you better time hitting the ball at the top of bounce, which gives opponet less time, plus gives you good chance of landing your attack. also helps your weight transfer and balance, later you can learn a more compact stroke on this and be even faster to get to and finish the ball when your opponet adapts by blocking or countering faster. All this adds up to higher effectiveness, more won points and increased confidence. That contributes a lot towards winning a match.You will quickly adapt your balde angles for the different levels of incoming topspins, but your strong forward stroke generating will get you to land a lot of them anyway. You will close a little more vs heavier topspin, too easy.

At first, these two totally different strokes make no sense to your and your mind as you try to implement the fixes. However, if you practice it enough, you will find yourself making even stronger attacks off the block of your first opener. Remember, it takes some time to adapt. The transistion will not become natural on the first day and you will miss more in matches at first, but at the end of the day (more like month or two or three) you will be WAY better off for this period of (figurative) pain.

TTOski
09-13-2011, 02:02 PM
You guys has very good answers on his problem,one thingwould like to add is ALWAYS keep your elbow in front of your body. That has helped me a lot!

Der_Echte
09-13-2011, 04:12 PM
Hey Bryce, looked at your original post again and you mentioned a coach chopping for you. Is he chopping your loops back, if so then the dynamics are different. Maybe he was just giving you underspin to initiate an attack and maintain pressure to finish. If it was a chop return, then you have different stuff to face. When you get a chop return back, you have some options and decision making. You have to figure out if you want to hit a slow speed shot with a lot of spin, or if you want to make a fast attack. You use more lifting (like a very vertical stroke) for the slower speed attack. The big two adjustments being swing direction and the degree you open the blade. At impact, you are trying to overpower (or better said, overspeed or overcome) the spin on the ball. You need some serious racket acelleration and explosion for that. You can open the blade some more for heavier incoming spin to keep it on the table. That stroke is a relative safe stroke, but not exactly a point winner, unless you get lucky. The fast attcking stroke involves a LOT more forward swing and a more open racket, plus some followthrough upwards. Assuming your position, acelleration, body mechanics (like NOT contacting the ball too far in front) and such were correct, AND that you read the spin/speed/break/depth correctly, you troubleshoot you missed shots by closing the blade more or using less lifting if shots are going long and closing blade or lifting more on the stroke. You also can get away with more forward swing vs a ball with less incoming underspin.

A lot of times, it is not as simple to say "Lift more", "Close blade more", "Open blade more" to fix all the misses, because there is often another reason that greatly contributed to the missed shot. It could be a wide range of stuff, but is usually mis-reading the spin and often messing up something in position or stroke. (Like hitting too far in front or improper balance/weight transfer/hitting too erect, lifting the elbow and shoulder joint, bad wrist snap timing, just to name a few examples) You have to learn exactly what went wrong to fix it. That is where having good skilled friends, a coach, or video can help identify the root cause(s).

As you get more aware of what does what in the strokes and how you do it yourself, it will fall together better and better.

I think your coach is saying to wait longer is to get you to relax a bit more and be in position and ready to execute the safer, slow loop shot to continue to build the pressure on the opponent. When you get a cut (Korean term for an underspin ball) you usually have enough time to not rush things, unless you have to move 2 meters to get into position. your coach is right there with you and we at the forums are not, unless we see video, so try out what coach says and ask him to tell you what things you are doing wrong that is causing your misses.

I pay for a coach here in Korea (they are very inexpensive compared to USA! AND they are usually very very high level) and I am like a bug or insect to the coach. Why? Because whatever money I pay, I want value and I want to learn. I am always in their ear asking WHY/HOW etc. I am a bother to them, just like a mosquito is to us in the summer.

A lot of people give out advice to WAIT for the incoming underspin ball to DROP a bit before hitting it. That is OK if you have good lift on your slow loop and it gives you more time to be in position. That is good for that stroke, but it is much more difficult to land the power shot against an underspin ball if it drops too much. You give yourself a lot more margin for error if you hit it higher, like near net height vs hitting it 5 cm below the table.