Returning backspin

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I'm having problems returning halflong relatively high bouncing (say 2 inch above net height) backspin balls, that don't or barely clear the table end.
These balls are typically the result of weak pushing rallies, where both players are hesitant to start an offensive return.

My personal habitis is to make a kind of mini-loop above the table, but many times I find out I can't execute enough vertical back- and forward swing to generate the required racket head speed thus ball in net.
I wonder whether I could execute a more shallow forward swing by taking the ball earlier, or should execute a flick above the table or a countedrive at 3 hr .

What would be my best option(s) in terms of benefit and risks?

PS: I placed a copy of this question at the "Neighbours" as well, sinnce this aspect of my game is quite critical and I want to gather as many opinions as possible.
 
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Well, i hope i got you right, and i'm neither a pro player nor a coach, but what helped me facing 60+ old players after restarting after a 20 year long break was this here:

if you don't feel confident to launch a spinattack, you could also try out spin variations on your pushes. Meaning e.g. one heavy backspin push and the next one an 'empty' push (dead ball). If your opponent doesn't attack that ball, he at least has to watch the spin, otherwise his ball's gonna go way up, makin' it easier for you to launch your attack.

You could also try just to lift the ball without a lot of spin instead of ending up in a pushing duell...

See, i found out it's better to avoid these long push rallies, against old guys with a 40+year experience in pushing. They where just waiting for these kinda rallies.

Hope this is helpful.
 
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Thanks Suga D.

For sure this is helpfull. First of all, to me it confirms that my main problem is a lack of confidence in my spinattack. Andreimst was referring to learning the correct technique but this is actually my question; what is the correct technique if the ball is half long, relatively slow, table is in the way and the ball bounces high up. For me this results in a shallow swing and a ball contact that occurs relatively high above the table. Both contribute to a lower racket head speed. Someone on forum adviced me to open up my racket more, so I'll give that a try and do some experimenting.

Your suggestions are good altenatives and recently there was a video on the forum, showing how you could execute a flip from middistance and even from end of the table. During last week's match I had to switch over to push rallies, but this isn't my preference.
 
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The advice with the open racket is absolutely correct. What is also important, is where you contact the ball. If you loop against a drive or a topspin, most people i know will tell you to contact it way above the ball's equator zone - rather close to the north pole.
Against backspin it's better to contact at the equator or even a little below. (I know this doesn't sound easy)
'Pulling' balls above the table recquires also a short but fast stroke with some wrist action...

So best thing would be to find someone at your club to feed you backspinning multiballs or if you could find a TT Robot it could help you to practice this...

After a little while and a few adjustments in your strokes you should be good to go... ;)

The practice should give you the confidence to 'implement' that stroke into your matchplay.

I guess that is also pretty much what andreimst meant to say... ;)
 
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Thanks again Suga D.

Turns out my main enemy is Pavlov....:)
NL mentioned "at the neighbours" the use of "over the table spin", which made me realize I wrongly tried to execute a full BH loop,as if the table wasn't in the way (which it was). This resulted in a half back-/forward swing with a ball contact too high above the table.
I should of course have executed more of a Banana BH loop (racket horizontally close to table, more wrist (as you mention in your post above), enabling the ball to come down just a bit more), optionally with sidespin, as rightfully added by NL above.

Dreaming out loud, I guess my current trainingprofile with full loops on long backspin and flicks/Banana loops on short (behind the net) services only, make me indecisive on intermediate push rallies. I've linked banana loops to services only. Something to add to my training scheme !

Funny how some tips from you guys can brighten the sky.
 
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I've linked banana loops to services only. Something to add to my training scheme !

Funny how some tips from you guys can brighten the sky.

You are very welcome.

I also received a couple of eye-opening advices over here, so it's nice that this time i could be helpful.

If i would have known that NL already got you, i probably wouldn't have wrote. His advices are usually pretty solid.
Hope we didn't confuse you by giving different tips.
;)
 
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No problem.... as a table tennis player I continuously live in a state of utter confusion :D

But seriously, I've experienced diverse answers from different angles being vary valuable.
I also experience it's sometimes difficult to bring over the question in a transparent way, but with a litle patience, understanding and debate, I've always found value in these forum topics....(well...almost all of them :D)
 
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says Spin and more spin.
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Good info so far. One of the reasons different answers can all be good is that there is a variety of ways to handle those balls.

Tomahawk kills (that is a sidespin push done like a chop smash) is another way to try and handle those. At least that will move your opponent away from the table. That is executed just like a tomahawk serve. But on those weird pushes. Pretty safe but not as effective against a higher level player who will just loop the heck out of that. But you wouldn't get into a push war with that player.

Then learning two loop variations and training them would be very valuable. One is learning the loop vs handbreaker pushes. You have someone roll the ball towards the edge of the table and loop it as it is passing the edge. Warning, use a backup racket for this until you have mastered it or you will wreck your racket.

Over the table loop. This one is worth learning. This one is the thing Ma Long does better than everyone else. To do this, you have to have the edge of the table measured and you have to start with your racket 1) the height of the table, 2) a tiny bit higher than the table or 3) (most risky) a tiny bit below the table; and then you loop mostly forward and need to take the ball at the top of the bounce.

If you do an over the table loop well you can loop anything that is more than 3 inches high and any where from halfway between the net and end-line and closer to the end-line. However, over the table looping is not easy and takes practice. I am usually not comfortable doing it in a match. But every so often I get a ball that I can do it to and don't think about it and just do it.

It is easier with BH than FH but that big over the table loop with FH makes your opponent scared to push high.


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hopper,

Matches reveal gaps in your training that are helpful to close if you see the gaps as repeated opportunities.. IMO, one of the biggest mistakes in TT is to harass oneself for missing shots that one has never drilled. Shots not trained against in matches regularly are never fully easy, and it is important to play all classes of opponents in practice for this reason, as one must remember how to kill easy balls as well as hard balls. That said, as I get better, I appreciate more that better players cover this gap in serve and serve receive usually. The ones that expose themselves to losses do not control the receive especially and sometimes the serve as well as others.
 
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Thanks USDCarl for the additional views on this topic. Would love to see a video on this over the table loop, as described by you, since I was absolutely unable to do it like this.

NL; nice how you exactly describe how I look at these things as well; Fantastic opportunities to learn something more about my game and close the gaps that still exist. Funny enough I have more gaps on the "easy" balls then on the "diffcult" ones, so I alwas focus a bit more on the "easy" stuff. I've learned that most "easy" stuff requires "ball feeling"and touch, which make them difficult as well. So "easy" actually doesn't exist.

Enough wisdom to call it a day and get some sleep after a great table tennis evening session.
 
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To see the best example of an over the table loop watch Ma Long's third ball attacks or second ball attacks. So many of them, he is taking a ball that is not very high and actually over the table instead of off the end.

I will try and see if I can find any good footage of it.

To do it you have to be pretty darn low, your weight has to be way forward like you are trying to lean over a fence that is in front of you and in your way, and you have to have your racket pretty close to table height so you can backswing and loop forward without the table in the way.

I have never seen an instructional video on this. But there may be some out there. Instead I have had a few different players show me how it is done.

To practice it you have someone feed you messed up multiball backspin with the balls half long so you have to take them over the table. If you figure out how to keep your racket high and not hit the table, after a certain number of misses, you will feel how to loop those balls. Then the rest is practice. But it is definitely not easy and a higher level skill to work on. A flip on a ball that is long is much easier to do but also much easier for your opponent to counter.


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Thanks USDCarl for the additional views on this topic. Would love to see a video on this over the table loop, as described by you, since I was absolutely unable to do it like this.

NL; nice how you exactly describe how I look at these things as well; Fantastic opportunities to learn something more about my game and close the gaps that still exist. Funny enough I have more gaps on the "easy" balls then on the "diffcult" ones, so I alwas focus a bit more on the "easy" stuff. I've learned that most "easy" stuff requires "ball feeling"and touch, which make them difficult as well. So "easy" actually doesn't exist.

Enough wisdom to call it a day and get some sleep after a great table tennis evening session.

Don't focus on the easy stuff per se. Just play weaker players. They will give you lots of practice.
 
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Don't focus on the easy stuff per se. Just play weaker players. They will give you lots of practice.

That guy, Paul, SmashFan, he plays me and gives me high level garbage balls and, as a result, I have gotten so much better at playing vs those weird balls that lower level players give you by accident and putting them away. So it can help. But it is true, if you just play against people who give that stuff by accident, you start to read and handle it.


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Well, i hope i got you right, and i'm neither a pro player nor a coach, but what helped me facing 60+ old players after restarting after a 20 year long break was this here:

if you don't feel confident to launch a spinattack, you could also try out spin variations on your pushes. Meaning e.g. one heavy backspin push and the next one an 'empty' push (dead ball). If your opponent doesn't attack that ball, he at least has to watch the spin, otherwise his ball's gonna go way up, makin' it easier for you to launch your attack.

You could also try just to lift the ball without a lot of spin instead of ending up in a pushing duell...

See, i found out it's better to avoid these long push rallies, against old guys with a 40+year experience in pushing. They where just waiting for these kinda rallies.

Hope this is helpful.

Suga-Deez ideas are fresh and some of them I use to try to break rhythm.

Since I block well and can also open up vs a predictable long underspin well, I like to make an underspin shot either almost dead or heavy right at the player's armpit area... either the player will give back a long underspin east to topspin... or he will try to attack it. The attack could result in a missed shot, but even if it lands, usually, the player finishes the shot off balance falling away, so all I got to do is block it cross court safely. If opponent somehow recovers and gets to that ball, it is likely coming back cross court and I am ready to block it to BH corner where he isn't.

You could also suddenly open your wrist and send the underspin ball impact off the bounce the other way to his wide FH and watch him scramble to try to attack it, then go about the same blocking sequence backwards.

Well, enough of that noise for now...

Say, is that Ryu Seung Min back in Bavaria drinking beerz with hiz TT buddies again???!!! Is he trying to go back to Oktoberfest?

Gotta go !!
 
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To see the best example of an over the table loop watch Ma Long's third ball attacks or second ball attacks. So many of them, he is taking a ball that is not very high and actually over the table instead of off the end.

I will try and see if I can find any good footage of it.

Would be great to see some of these examples !
 
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