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Dan
10-09-2015, 05:26 PM
Hey all,

Below is my latest review with Tom looking at the highly anticipated Butterfly G40+ Plastic Ball. This is the 3 star version to the Easy Ball and made in Germany and not China like many other plastic balls. I think the ball plays nice and clean and feels hard. Find out more in the video review below:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix6z-NsTIPI

We hope you enjoyed this review, let us know what you think by posting below guys.

Check out more reviews of the Butterfly G40+ Plastic Ball in the Equipment Review Centre here: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/equipment/balls/11310-g40

Hamasaki_Fanz
10-09-2015, 06:31 PM
this wont be used by ITTF because they're trying to slow the game and butterfly keeps coming up with technology to fasten the game D:

ttmonster
10-09-2015, 07:55 PM
Thanks Dan!
Very nice review and I liked the way you showed the comparison in slow motion in a split screen. I had a question, how was the spin on the ball compared to existing Nittaku 3 star or the older celluloid balls. Is it spinning more , compared to other plastic balls ?

Baal
10-09-2015, 07:57 PM
I just ordered some. In US we won't be able to get them before December.

NextLevel
10-09-2015, 09:12 PM
I just ordered some. In US we won't be able to get them before December.

It says Oct 15 on the site tho (for 12 I dumbly ordered). Likely a mistake as everything else says Dec.

AndySmith
10-09-2015, 10:04 PM
It says Oct 15 on the site tho (for 12 I dumbly ordered). Likely a mistake as everything else says Dec.

Where are you ordering from?

NextLevel
10-09-2015, 10:39 PM
http://shop.butterflyonline.com/table-tennis-balls

Ilia Minkin
10-10-2015, 12:25 AM
Why does ITTF approve balls with different characteristics?

Baal
10-10-2015, 01:51 AM
NL, that's where I ordered too. Hadn't noticed it says October for the 12 box which is what I ordered. Maybe we will get lucky.

AndySmith
10-10-2015, 10:02 AM
Why does ITTF approve balls with different characteristics?

Because their testing procedures use such broad parameters that the door is left open for the manufacturers to vary things.

Anders
10-10-2015, 11:19 AM
Anyone knows if this tech will be used by the other manufacturers? In Norway we have to use Stiga balls for matches and they really suck atm, so hope Stiga will get their hands on this tech hehe :p

Ilia Minkin
10-10-2015, 07:19 PM
Because their testing procedures use such broad parameters that the door is left open for the manufacturers to vary things.

This is very, very sad.

Baal
10-10-2015, 09:16 PM
The reason ITTF gave is this: They wanted balls to fit into a certain range of weights, diameters bounce heights, roundness etc. More recently they are adding some durability measures. Back around 2012 they thought it would be fairly easy to get balls like that. Later they were forced to delay the time the most strict parameters would be enforced until Jan 1, 2016 when it became clear it would not be so easy to make these balls and most of the balls they were getting to test would fail. They also claim they wanted to spur innovation since they were not sure what technologies would win out. Originally, DHS was part of a consortium with XSF and Palio to make the seamless balls. DHS dropped out (not sure why, maybe intellectual property dispute). Seamless balls meet all of the 2016 specs already and have for about 18 months, whereas DHS balls do not (unless they have gotten better recently). However, DHS has a great deal influence with ITTF (deep pockets for bribes would be my speculation) and XSF do not. Now DHS are whining to ITTF asking for more time, since the technology they are using -- basically trying to make plastic balls exactly the way they used to make cellulloid -- is producing a bad result (low bounce, fragile, not round, expensive). Now some of the European companies (Joola for example) are hedging their bets and selling seamless balls (which I think is great news). Stiga should probably consider that.

SO the answer to Ilia's question is that the ITTF did not intend to allow such a wide range of ball performance, but faced with reality, they decided that they would allow balls that are not very good provisionally until the manufacturers started to figure out how to make decent plastic balls. Now that time is almost up, just a little over two months left. And we will see what happens.

By the way Dan's description of the G40+ balls is a lot like how I feel that Nittaku Premium 40+ Japan balls feel.

AndySmith
10-10-2015, 10:09 PM
By the way Dan's description of the G40+ balls is a lot like how I feel that Nittaku Premium 40+ Japan balls feel.

Yes, I'm expecting something similar as well. The Easy Ball is a bit rough in terms of quality, but the bounce and (crucially) hardness is quite close to NP40+. So the 3* version could be very close indeed (apart from the sound, which will be a bit of a hurdle for some).

The ITTF ended up presiding over quite the mess. On one hand, they seem to want the marketplace to sort the problem out for itself (which, you could argue, is happening now with Tibhar and Joola offering seamless balls and Butterfly introducing German-made).

But on the other hand we didn't start out with a level playing field. There were contracts in place, sponsorship deals, undue influence from DHS (who unfortunately managed to produce the worst ball). The pain of this has been felt at ground level where plastic use has been pushed through. The first 12 months have been a mess. Hardly an open marketplace in which to operate.

I have to say that there is a lot more positivity around these days though. Things are less than ideal - the worst ball generally available is being used at the top level, and the differences between ball types are too large. But progress is being made. It was great to see the NP40+ being used at the Euros, for example, and the German ball is promising.

ZB12345
10-13-2015, 10:57 AM
What rubber was used in this review, please?

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

Suga D
10-14-2015, 09:23 AM
Please don't hate on me. Those aren't just for me. They are for our whole club... :D :D :D8307

Suga D
10-14-2015, 02:34 PM
It says Oct 15 on the site tho (for 12 I dumbly ordered). Likely a mistake as everything else says Dec.

I don't think it's a mistake.

Dan
10-15-2015, 05:44 PM
Thanks Dan!
Very nice review and I liked the way you showed the comparison in slow motion in a split screen. I had a question, how was the spin on the ball compared to existing Nittaku 3 star or the older celluloid balls. Is it spinning more , compared to other plastic balls ?

Thanks ttmonster, yeah I thought I would use some slow motion to see if there was a difference in speed. Nice to add something a bit different in now and then to :)

Good question, I was really trying to work this out when I tested the ball. I think the ball in terms of spin is actually quite similar with any plastic ball really... it has similar spin to a Stag or XuShaoFa ball. The difference I felt was the speed and how much lighter on contact the G40+ felt. There is a slight sound different to. I am looking forward to finding out how you guys find it to.


Anyone knows if this tech will be used by the other manufacturers?

Good question Anders. I have a feeling Butterfly have a patent on this material... anyone else know about this? I think Butterfly are making this ball themselves and in Germany so I doubt other Manufacs can use it. But lets see.


What rubber was used in this review, please?

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk

Hey there, a STIGA Airoc and a Butterfly Tenergy 05 on a Infinity blade was used when testing the ball.


Please don't hate on me. Those aren't just for me. They are for our whole club... :D :D :D8307

Haha nice going Suga! How are you and your team mates finding the ball so far?

UpSideDownCarl
10-15-2015, 06:36 PM
Good question Anders. I have a feeling Butterfly have a patent on this material... anyone else know about this? I think Butterfly are making this ball themselves and in Germany so I doubt other Manufacs can use it. But lets see.

Not sure how accurate this is. The Butterfly G40+ ball was made in the Weiner factory in Germany. Weren't Butterfly just getting the Weiner factory to make the ball for them? I am not sure if this is a similar situation to the ones in China where, at the DHS factory they can make DHS balls or let other companies put their own brand name on the same ball.

Wouldn't it be a similar process from the Weiner factory? Or would other companies wanting to use balls from the Weiner factory need to get the factory to reinvent the wheel (or in this case, the ball!).

Butterfly is the first company to brand a ball from the Weiner factory though.


Sent from Godric'sHollow using the ResurrectionStone

NextLevel
10-15-2015, 07:18 PM
Not sure how accurate this is. The Butterfly G40+ ball was made in the Weiner factory in Germany. Weren't Butterfly just getting the Weiner factory to make the ball for them? I am not sure if this is a similar situation to the ones in China where, at the DHS factory they can make DHS balls or let other companies put their own brand name on the same ball.

Wouldn't it be a similar process from the Weiner factory? Or would other companies wanting to use balls from the Weiner factory need to get the factory to reinvent the wheel (or in this case, the ball!).

Butterfly is the first company to brand a ball from the Weiner factory though.


Sent from Godric'sHollow using the ResurrectionStone

Butterfly in their first press release made it sound like they had an exclusivity agreement.

UpSideDownCarl
10-15-2015, 08:23 PM
Butterfly in their first press release made it sound like they had an exclusivity agreement.

Do you think that mean they are the only company who will sell a plastic ball made in the Weiner factory? Or will the Weiner factory just produce a different Poly 40+ ball for other companies?


Sent from Godric'sHollow using the ResurrectionStone

NextLevel
10-15-2015, 08:54 PM
Do you think that mean they are the only company who will sell a plastic ball made in the Weiner factory? Or will the Weiner factory just produce a different Poly 40+ ball for other companies?


Sent from Godric'sHollow using the ResurrectionStone

When looking into the future or understanding the legal implications of a deal in a press release, your ResurrectionStone is as good as mine.

NextLevel
11-07-2015, 12:56 PM
It says Oct 15 on the site tho (for 12 I dumbly ordered). Likely a mistake as everything else says Dec.

I got my balls and posted my brief review with video here using both XSF and G40+.

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/equipment/balls/11310-g40/

JHB
11-07-2015, 01:13 PM
I got my balls and posted my brief review with video here using both XSF and G40+.

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/equipment/balls/11310-g40/

Ah right, so they are not complete vapourware like Butterfly's other new products then !

TTHopeful
11-07-2015, 05:47 PM
I got my balls and posted my brief review with video here using both XSF and G40+.

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/equipment/balls/11310-g40/

Good review NextLevel, just watched

Baal
11-08-2015, 08:19 PM
OK, here are my impressions of the G40+, specifically in reference to Nittaku Premium 40+ Japan (NP40+) and also XSF. I played with it for two hours today on Tibhar Smash 28 tables.

G40+ bounces about the same height as an XSF ball, which is a little higher than NP40+ (and a lot higher than Chinese seamed balls). Personally I like this, but if you are used to NP40+, you will need to keep this in mind.

It is hard to see the seam in a G40+ unless you shine light through it, which is also true of NP40+ (and very different from Chinese seamed balls). However, the seam in a G40+ is quite a bit bigger than a NP40+ (the amount the two halves overlap). Butterfly says that even though they have a seam, the inner diameter does not increase where the seam is. Nittaku Premium has a very very small seam.

Another really obvious difference I can see right away with two new unused balls right out of the box is that the surface of the G40+ ball is a lot smoother than either NP40+ or XSF. It is instantly discernible when you take two balls and rub them together. The sound of two NP40+ (or XSF) is greater than G40+ and you can feel more vibration.

As everyone mentions, G40+ has weird sound (like old seamless prototypes or Ipong practice balls), but after about 5 minutes you stop noticing or caring. Once you realize the ball bounces normally and not like a broken ball, the sound stops mattering.

The good news is that this is a perfectly decent ball and my partner and I had fun playing with it today. Also, new balls right out of the box will not put any dust residue on your rubber!! (Very different from NP40+).

Some people may consider the next thing bad news; it does not really play all that much like an NP40+, it is not really like a XSF either, and it is definitely not like a Chinese seamed ball (thank goodness). The G40+ is unique, which means that there is even more variability in the playing properties of plastic balls, and this is really a fourth class of ball. All in all it is closest to XSF I think but still has unique properties. That is the bad part. We are living in an era now with a lot more difference in ball properties than we ever had in the celluloid era. (I have seen ITTF officials try to downplay this, but it is obvious).

Dan's review mentioned that the ball flies very straight in the air. I agree, in fact it is one of the things that seems to me to be different from either NP40+ or XSF. Perhaps this has something to do with the unusually smooth surface of the G40+? I also had the impression it flies fast through the air. Is this really the case or an illusion of some type? Hard to say but that's how it seemed. If you are wondering why surface texture affects ball flight, bear in mind that (as with golf balls) a rougher texture could creates a thin turbulent boundary layer of air that clings to the ball's surface. This allows the smoothly flowing air to follow the ball's surface a little farther around the back side of the ball, thereby decreasing the size of the wake. Table tennis balls are a lot lighter, so it may be that smaller changes in surface texture are sufficient to affect blight through the air -- see http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-dimples-in-golf-ba/).

I felt like the ball had more spin after the bounce on the table, and that it jumped less off the table as a result of spin. This could also be due to smooth surface. My guess is that it is heavier than NP40+ (I will weigh precisely next week) but also a lot harder than a XSF, so it will seem lighter when you play with it. At times it felt somewhat intermediate between XSF and NP40+ but when you flat hit the ball or blocked with authority, the ball seemed to move super fast.

My suspicion is that the very smooth surface of the ball is part of the reason it plays differently. But it is not everything. The G40+ also played a bit differently from a very well worn NP40+.

A couple of really good players on the next table (Jimmy Butler and Niraj Oak) hit with one briefly, the first impression they had was not altogether positive, but they didn't give it more than about 5 minutes. I very much value the opinion of very good players, they just see and feel things more accurately.

I am not sure if people will like G40+ better or worse than NP40+ or XSF. To be honest, I am not entirely sure myself how I feel about it.

The one thing I am sure of is that it is certainly as legitimate an effort to make a decent plastic ball as either XSF or NP40+. There were no grossly bad bounces (I am very accustomed to 40+ balls, have used them exclusively for 18 months). Didn't break one in two hours.

I will write more after I have played with it some more, and also after other people in my club at various levels have had a change to try it out. But if you held a gun to my head and say rank order the balls, I would say NP40+ > XSF = G40+ >>>>>>>> any Chinese seamed ball.

Dan
11-09-2015, 08:59 AM
OK, here are my impressions of the G40+, specifically in reference to Nittaku Premium 40+ Japan (NP40+) and also XSF. I played with it for two hours today on Tibhar Smash 28 tables.

G40+ bounces about the same height as an XSF ball, which is a little higher than NP40+ (and a lot higher than Chinese seamed balls). Personally I like this, but if you are used to NP40+, you will need to keep this in mind.

It is hard to see the seam in a G40+ unless you shine light through it, which is also true of NP40+ (and very different from Chinese seamed balls). However, the seam in a G40+ is quite a bit bigger than a NP40+ (the amount the two halves overlap). Butterfly says that even though they have a seam, the inner diameter does not increase where the seam is. Nittaku Premium has a very very small seam.

Another really obvious difference I can see right away with two new unused balls right out of the box is that the surface of the G40+ ball is a lot smoother than either NP40+ or XSF. It is instantly discernible when you take two balls and rub them together. The sound of two NP40+ (or XSF) is greater than G40+ and you can feel more vibration.

As everyone mentions, G40+ has weird sound (like old seamless prototypes or Ipong practice balls), but after about 5 minutes you stop noticing or caring. Once you realize the ball bounces normally and not like a broken ball, the sound stops mattering.

The good news is that this is a perfectly decent ball and my partner and I had fun playing with it today. Also, new balls right out of the box will not put any dust residue on your rubber!! (Very different from NP40+).

Some people may consider the next thing bad news; it does not really play all that much like an NP40+, it is not really like a XSF either, and it is definitely not like a Chinese seamed ball (thank goodness). The G40+ is unique, which means that there is even more variability in the playing properties of plastic balls, and this is really a fourth class of ball. All in all it is closest to XSF I think but still has unique properties. That is the bad part. We are living in an era now with a lot more difference in ball properties than we ever had in the celluloid era. (I have seen ITTF officials try to downplay this, but it is obvious).

Dan's review mentioned that the ball flies very straight in the air. I agree, in fact it is one of the things that seems to me to be different from either NP40+ or XSF. Perhaps this has something to do with the unusually smooth surface of the G40+? I also had the impression it flies fast through the air. Is this really the case or an illusion of some type? Hard to say but that's how it seemed. If you are wondering why surface texture affects ball flight, bear in mind that (as with golf balls) a rougher texture could creates a thin turbulent boundary layer of air that clings to the ball's surface. This allows the smoothly flowing air to follow the ball's surface a little farther around the back side of the ball, thereby decreasing the size of the wake. Table tennis balls are a lot lighter, so it may be that smaller changes in surface texture are sufficient to affect blight through the air -- see http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-dimples-in-golf-ba/).

I felt like the ball had more spin after the bounce on the table, and that it jumped less off the table as a result of spin. This could also be due to smooth surface. My guess is that it is heavier than NP40+ (I will weigh precisely next week) but also a lot harder than a XSF, so it will seem lighter when you play with it. At times it felt somewhat intermediate between XSF and NP40+ but when you flat hit the ball or blocked with authority, the ball seemed to move super fast.

My suspicion is that the very smooth surface of the ball is part of the reason it plays differently. But it is not everything. The G40+ also played a bit differently from a very well worn NP40+.

A couple of really good players on the next table (Jimmy Butler and Niraj Oak) hit with one briefly, the first impression they had was not altogether positive, but they didn't give it more than about 5 minutes. I very much value the opinion of very good players, they just see and feel things more accurately.

I am not sure if people will like G40+ better or worse than NP40+ or XSF. To be honest, I am not entirely sure myself how I feel about it.

The one thing I am sure of is that it is certainly as legitimate an effort to make a decent plastic ball as either XSF or NP40+. There were no grossly bad bounces (I am very accustomed to 40+ balls, have used them exclusively for 18 months). Didn't break one in two hours.

I will write more after I have played with it some more, and also after other people in my club at various levels have had a change to try it out. But if you held a gun to my head and say rank order the balls, I would say NP40+ > XSF = G40+ >>>>>>>> any Chinese seamed ball.

This is one fantastic review Baal, I like your thinking. It sure is hard to pin point this ball, I had difficulties thinking about the ball when reviewing it and coming to a conclusion myself. I went to a junior tournament in the UK last weekend and the balls used were the G40+. Most of the kids didn't even care or notice what ball they were using, but a few did say they really liked it and it felt fast. I am looking forward to more reviews to see how time will tell.

Baal
11-09-2015, 04:44 PM
Here are the data on G40+ weight (measured with a Denver Instruments laboratory balance).

G40+ average weight was 2.76 grams +/- 0.03 grams (standard deviation) calculated from 6 balls.

NP40+ average with a sample of 6 was 2.70 grams +/- 0.02 grams (standard deviation).

Main conclusions from this:

1. The NP40+ is the lightest plastic ball. In fact the heaviest NP40+ ball you will ever find is most likely going to be lighter than the lightest ball you will find in a reasonably sized sample of almost any other brand. In fact, some will be lighter than some of the celluloid balls.

2. The average weight of a G40+ is almost exactly the same as XSF (based on my earlier measurements with the same very well calibrated laboratory balance). By comparison, Chinese seamed balls from last year were pretty much always at 2.80 grams or greater. Unless they have managed to fix that, they will not be approved for long after January 1.

I have misplaced my calipers so can't measure diameter! http://mytabletennis.net/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif

I think that when people say a ball feels lighter or heavier when they play, that feeling may or may not have something to do with the weight. More often it has something to do with the hardness of the ball. (Kicking a deflated football, it may feel heavier). I think, though that the way a Nittkau Premium plays has a lot to do with the fact that it is simply a slightly smaller ball than the others (based on my precise measurements of weight, and wturber's measurements of diameter).

Next Level mentions that the G40+ has a lot in common with XSF (and on a lot of shots that seems right to me) and I think that may be due to the fact that they have the same weight. However, the differences I notice between G40+ and XSF may have to do with the fact they are made of a different plastic with different hardness and external texture. I think the G40+ flies straighter and maybe faster.

NextLevel
11-09-2015, 04:59 PM
Same weight and bounce height. I think that I will ultimately prefer the G40+ because coming through the table helps my blocking game - I hate the way the XSF ball sometimes holds up vs celluloid. It shows up when all of a sudden, my muscle memory kicks in when I am using a Nittaku Premium and the ball shows up where years of celluloid training predict. The G40+ is like that for me and I was surprised that Jim and Niraj disliked it. Maybe it was the sound and being used to Nittaku Premium.

Actually, now I think about it, it was probably that they liked the ball to react with the table a little more but I didn't find that radically different for a used XSF ball either.

AndySmith
11-18-2015, 03:46 PM
Available in the UK now from Table Tennis Direct. £20 for a dozen, which is pretty close to the US price I suppose.

http://www.tabletennisdirect.com/shop/butterfly-g40-poly-ball/

Baal
11-18-2015, 06:48 PM
I have some updated information on this.

I have had about five long sessions with the G40+, and I have had lots of my clubmates try them. Until this week I had mainly been using them since I received them because I wanted to get as familiar with them as possible. With time now (about 10 hours of play in total) I will revise my order of preference for plastic balls to Nittaku Premium > XSF > G40+ (from best to worst). This is something of a matter of taste, but for me at least, I am sure of it.

The main reason for this is that with a bit of wear the G40+ gets even more smooth and shiny on the surface than they are when new. Once that happens, with maybe 90-120 minutes of use, the playing properties decline a great deal. You start getting very low sliding bounces, unpredictably, since the normal bounce of this ball is very high. Also the ball becomes harder to control. This sliding does not happen when they are new, at least not as much. No ball maintains its playability for as long as XSF, but Nittaku Premium starts very good and stays good longer. In my view, this is a major downside of the G40+ especially considering price.

In tournaments it will matter less since you will mostly use new balls. Expect a lot of tournaments, especially in the US to use G40+ balls.

Everybody who has tried them at my club has said they feel very fast, more so as they get shinier on the outside. With the speed and high bounce, the game becomes distinctly less spin oriented.

Some people will probably like the high speed/usually high bounce combination but I definitely don't, because that is also when the bounces start to get strange. I haven't managed to break one yet (except for one I stomped on in anger), but it hardly matters if their wear makes them not useful for other reasons.

I am going back to the Nittaku Premiums as my ball of choice.

SpinWins
12-10-2015, 04:48 PM
I bought 12 pack of this ball. I used Nittaku premium plastic for 4 month before.

What I notice is low residue on new ball. Ball feel is a little more like celluloid than Nittaku. Both ball are the best poly ball I have used (also use XSN ball for months). the butterfly seem more white and easy to see, but it is new.

One thing that I notice and its probably in my head, but the G40+ seem to have a sharper up/down on loops. Like the spin is sharper and trajectory is higher. It is probably just in my mind, or due to the logo being large and showing spin better, but that has been my experience so far.