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View Full Version : Ma long backspin sidespin variation serve demo (Ma long's second serve motion)



Siva Schopenhauer
12-01-2015, 02:58 PM
Hi guys and girls,

I shot some footage in the weekend for Ma's backspin and sidespin variation serves. I tried my best to imitate the serve motion. I hope you find these serves interesting and please suggest me some feedback. The last thread of mine related to the main serve of Ma long gave me a lot of productive and honest feedbacks on which I am working on.:o

I am really grateful to the community for any further improvements with that serve practice.:D

P.S, the videos has a good music and some graphics added with the help of VSDC editor:cool:. Spent a ton of time learning that editor through the last few days, It was both challenging and interesting experience.

Hope you like the video and share your view on it!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lBwp668XB0

Suga D
12-02-2015, 11:01 PM
Hi guys and girls,

I shot some footage in the weekend for Ma's backspin and sidespin variation serves. I tried my best to imitate the serve motion. I hope you find these serves interesting and please suggest me some feedback. The last thread of mine related to the main serve of Ma long gave me a lot of productive and honest feedbacks on which I am working on.:o

I am really grateful to the community for any further improvements with that serve practice.:D

P.S, the videos has a good music and some graphics added with the help of VSDC editor:cool:. Spent a ton of time learning that editor through the last few days, It was both challenging and interesting experience.

Hope you like the video and share your view on it!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lBwp668XB0

That was pretty good. Your serves are carrying quite an amount of spin. Especially the heavy backspin one.
Well done.
You definitely don't look like a beginner.
To raise the difficulty level you should definitely should replace the net asap, cause the height of the bounce is important. Such a nice serve getting flip killed wouldn't feel nice.
What you also could do is try to hit targets and place things like a broken ball or a "Bierdeckel" or anything like that on the table and try to hit 'em.
I haven't seen you play a full match yet, but you really seem to have a talent for serves.

Good job.

CroneOne
12-03-2015, 12:18 AM
Good spin. The only thing is that you will probably get called on hiding your serve
with your left arm. On some serves, it's blocking the contact.
They don't call these things at higher levels it seems but I've been
called on it before at fun club level.

Shuki
12-03-2015, 03:31 AM
i'm so impressed by your serves... well done

Ilia Minkin
12-03-2015, 04:14 AM
The only thing is that you will probably get called on hiding your serve


The way he hides his serve is not even borderline.

Ilia Minkin
12-03-2015, 04:34 AM
Honestly, please don't hide the serve in competition. It is cheating.

UpSideDownCarl
12-03-2015, 04:59 AM
Your serves are nice. Good spin. You are doing good work.

I wondered this in the first video and thread. But I didn't say anything.

However, since this is the second thread with the name Ma Long and the word serve in the title, I will ask:

Why exactly are you saying that is a Ma Long serve?

Don't get me wrong. The serves are pretty nice. But you may as well call them Vladimir Samsonov serves. They don't look any more similar to his than Ma Long's. But the uprightness of your torso is much more like Samsonov than it is like a Ma Long serve.

When Ma Long serves, his whole spine is rounded and his abdomen is hollowed out to make space for the racket moving towards it. His upper back is almost parallel to the ground and his body movement is from a weight transfer towards the table from the hips and legs.

Whereas, your upper body is completely vertical and the movement of the torso is rotational rather than from the weight transfer. The backswing and the arm and wrist movement are totally different as well. Also Ma Long's deceptive followthrough doesn't seem to be there.

Personally I don't know that you should change any of that. Your serves are pretty decent how they are. But they are nothing like Ma Long's serves in any real way. Even if you were trying to imitate Ma Long's serve what came out of that endeavor is uniquely your own.

The only thing that could be sited as similar is you are performing a pendulum serve. And even though it is true that half the time Ma Long does variations on the pendulum serve THE OTHER HALF OF THE TIME he does variations on the reverse pendulum serve.

So I suggest you call these the S. Schopenhauer serve demo.

Here, have a look at Ma Long serving and see how hunched over he usually is.


http://youtu.be/7sRIAnLf818


http://youtu.be/0DSy2hmtPKU


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

Siva Schopenhauer
12-03-2015, 05:37 AM
That was pretty good. Your serves are carrying quite an amount of spin. Especially the heavy backspin one.
Well done.
You definitely don't look like a beginner.
To raise the difficulty level you should definitely should replace the net asap, cause the height of the bounce is important. Such a nice serve getting flip killed wouldn't feel nice.
What you also could do is try to hit targets and place things like a broken ball or a "Bierdeckel" or anything like that on the table and try to hit 'em.
I haven't seen you play a full match yet, but you really seem to have a talent for serves.

Good job.

Hi Suga D,

Thanks for the feedback.

In my own opinion, I think I should be a kinda of advanced beginner. My strengths are different variations of both pendulum and reverse pendulum serves combined with third ball attack. But, I make a lot of unforced errors in receiving service.

Also, I think my forehand attack is powerful owing to my heavy built. But, my loops on either sides is so primitive. I'll do a short video in a while demonstrating how handicapped my play is.

Thanks again for the tip. Never thought about placing some Bierdeckel on the table to improve the serve accuracies. It would be an interesting experiment.

I do think I have a strong desire to work on serves. I keep practising the pendulum serves of most of the top players. I think my pendulum serve with Zhang Jike's motion is quite effective than this style. However, my fetish to serve like Ma long has been uncontrollable. Thanks again for being so generous in your appreciations.

My serve practice goes like this. I see the youtube videos, especially the chinese ones where the coaches explain the serves of the player(Jagged translates has quiet a few in youtube). Then, I go back to the garage with a vision of the serve and kept practising, say one or two hours with the flow till I felt atleast a minor improvement with the feel or technique if the serve. That has been my secret.

Siva Schopenhauer
12-03-2015, 05:40 AM
Good spin. The only thing is that you will probably get called on hiding your serve
with your left arm. On some serves, it's blocking the contact.
They don't call these things at higher levels it seems but I've been
called on it before at fun club level.

Hi Croneone,

Thanks for commenting. I was thinking about the hand motions of top players and came to the conclusion that most of the serves were illegal Eg. Hiding with one side of torso, low toss, inclined toss.

Honestly speaking I didn't expect that I am hiding too much till I caught it in camera. Point noted, need to work again to remove the left hand as early as possible.

Siva Schopenhauer
12-03-2015, 05:41 AM
Honestly, please don't hide the serve in competition. It is cheating.

Hi Illa,

True story. Didn't realise the extent to which I hid the ball. Need to work on it a little bit. But, not to difficult to solve this isse. Thanks for commenting

Siva Schopenhauer
12-03-2015, 05:54 AM
Hi upsidedowncarl,

Thanks for pointing out the flaw in the serve. It is a valuable feedback which I was missing for a long time. The point was that I didn't hunch. That changed a lot of the dynamics of serving for the first video..

Actually, this serve is the second serve which Ma long uses especially when he wants to serve a backspin.For this serve, he assumes a vertical position and a high toss. Since my garage is not that huge in size, I had to limit the toss height and threw ball similar to Samsonov. I do agree that the serve got mixed up with a litlle bit of both Samsonov's and Ma long's.
But, i assume the contact and weight transfer is similar to Ma' s backspin serve. I have added the link where he assumes a similar stance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM-CIJO2D4o

But, I think a lot is to be done with weight transfer and follow up motion.

I would like to know what do you think about the similarites of contact between this serve of him and mine. Thanks a lot for commenting.

UpSideDownCarl
12-03-2015, 04:59 PM
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in the serve.

It seems you couldn't have understood me if you are saying this. I did not point out flaws in your serve. I pointed out that your serve is nothing like Ma Long's serve except for the fact that sometimes Ma Long does a pendulum serve and you are doing a pendulum serve. After that detail, there is nothing else alike between them.

Your serve has a completely different body motion, a completely different arm and wrist movement, different back swing, different stroke entirely. But the serve is darn good and you should stick with it. But call it your serve. Because it is not Ma Long's serve. Okay, I don't really think it matters what you call it. But if you say it is Ma Long's serve, you are missing something.


The point was that I didn't hunch. That changed a lot of the dynamics of serving for the first video..

Not really. The point was that it is your serve and that your serve is a good serve but it is not like Ma Long's serve. And it is a pretty nice Siva Schopenhauer serve.


I do agree that the serve got mixed up with a litlle bit of both Samsonov's and Ma long's.

It is not like Samsonov's serve or Ma Long's serve. But it is still a good serve.


But, i assume the contact and weight transfer is similar to Ma' s backspin serve.

It is not.


I have added the link where he assumes a similar stance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM-CIJO2D4o
After his toss he is upright. Before the toss he is more upright than he would be in a match because he is sort of playing around. As he swings his upper back rounds forward still even though, not as much as it would in a serve in a match. His arm moves back and around his back as the elbow partially unbends on his backswing. Your arm doesn't really unbend when you backswing. Your arm moves almost straight away from and straight towards the table when you swing where Ma Long's arm starts behind his back, moves out to the side and at the end of the motion his arm is moving towards his hollowed out abdomen. Your racket moves a tiny bit towards your body because of your wrist. But your arm is moving forward. Not towards your body.

But the biggest difference would be what Ma Long is doing with his legs. His weight starts in his back leg, and in your video it is easy to see how much he moves his weight from the back leg towards the front leg and the table so his whole body weight is moving forward. Instead of that, you twist. That may work as well but the two movements are nothing alike. And in your video, Ma Long is serving with a stance he would not use in a match. His legs are completely different from how he would have them in a match. But in a match he still uses his legs to get a lot of forward momentum with his torso. You are getting rotational movement with your torso. But your body is not moving forward: it is twisting.

Again, this is not to point out things that are correct or incorrect. Your serves are very good. But they are just not like Ma Long's serves.


I would like to know what do you think about the similarites of contact between this serve of him and mine. Thanks a lot for commenting.

If your arm and his arm are moving in completely different planes of movement, is there a point here? You both brush. Your contact is good. Ma Long's contact is exceptional. But your rackets are moving in different directions as is every other part of your body.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

Siva Schopenhauer
12-04-2015, 12:03 AM
Thanks for pointing out the flaw in the serve.

I didn't meant to be sarcastic or negative. I just thought that serve was similar to Ma long's and it needed some updates.But, didn't expect it to be in opposite poles.

But, after the last post of yours, I now understand that I should start again from scratch to serve like him. I was thinking of creating a video serve demonstration of top players and it would be incompatible with me serving like me and naming it on others.


After his toss he is upright. Before the toss he is more upright than he would be in a match because he is sort of playing around. As he swings his upper back rounds forward still even though, not as much as it would in a serve in a match. His arm moves back and around his back as the elbow partially unbends on his backswing. Your arm doesn't really unbend when you backswing. Your arm moves almost straight away from and straight towards the table when you swing where Ma Long's arm starts behind his back, moves out to the side and at the end of the motion his arm is moving towards his hollowed out abdomen. Your racket moves a tiny bit towards your body because of your wrist. But your arm is moving forward. Not towards your body.

That was a quite a deep technical explanation, which I do agree on. You have got a very strong technical understanding which I still lack. Thanks for enlightening me with the mechanics of motion, contact and follow-through. I would keep going back and practicing it again from the scratch.


His weight starts in his back leg, and in your video it is easy to see how much he moves his weight from the back leg towards the front leg and the table so his whole body weight is moving forward.

From the video, i think he is shifting the weight from the left leg to the right leg (when making contact) and that is why he moves forward. Do we agree here?

As you rightly pointed out, I was twisting my upper torso for the thrust. Bu, once in a while I do shift it from one leg to another. I think the next time, I will be more conscious about it.

UpSideDownCarl
12-04-2015, 12:31 AM
From my perspective your serves are good and you should let them develop naturally. You get nice spin. It is a pretty solid serve.

Starting from scratch? I don't know. I guess it is your choice. But the question would be, what would be the point of you trying to really develop a serve that looked just like Ma Long's?

When I was a drummer I knew a few drummers who were so darn good that they could play like a whole host of different drummers. "Here, look, this is John Bonham, here is Keith Moon, this is how Billy Cobham plays, here is Lenny White, here is Elvin Jones." They were just so good they could play like other people. Really, just like other people. BUT THEY HAD THEIR OWN STYLE OF PLAY.

Develop your serves. When you have total mastery over them, then you will be able to imitate other people's serves and not mess your own up.

By the way, in the video you posted of Ma Long, you should notice that part of what Ma Long is doing is--with the high toss--he is hitting between the obstacles they have put on the table for him and aiming for one of the obstacles. That is why they put that stuff on the table. And it looks like he is hitting the target over and over.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

Siva Schopenhauer
12-04-2015, 01:36 AM
Since we both of us are from yogic background, I would say the need of producing serves of top players is from karma yogic idea, acting on the benefits of greater good than the individual.

If I keep developing my own serves naturally, I may become better. And when I display it in youtube, I don't think that creates enough interest and attention.

On the other hand, if I try to serve like the other top players and when it is reasonably convincing, then it could make many beginners like me in internet to believe that it is quiet possible for anyone to do it. This in turn could make many people to post their own videos of them serving in internet. I think generally, this approach could create much better goodwill than the first one. In doing so, I may be not improving so much on personal level, but it will be more about impacting the community with What I can best do.

Thanks

SquareBall
12-04-2015, 08:31 AM
I don't understand one thing though, as Carl stressed as you practice your service evolves naturally, and I guess Ma Long's service came to be how it is today after a lot of practicing. So, is it possible for someone who hasn't practiced his services that much to get the same result by copying ? From my experience from practicing my guess is no...

darnner123
12-04-2015, 10:56 AM
It seems you couldn't have understood me if you are saying this. I did not point out flaws in your serve. I pointed out that your serve is nothing like Ma Long's serve except for the fact that sometimes Ma Long does a pendulum serve and you are doing a pendulum serve. After that detail, there is nothing else alike between them.

Your serve has a completely different body motion, a completely different arm and wrist movement, different back swing, different stroke entirely. But the serve is darn good and you should stick with it. But call it your serve. Because it is not Ma Long's serve. Okay, I don't really think it matters what you call it. But if you say it is Ma Long's serve, you are missing something.



Not really. The point was that it is your serve and that your serve is a good serve but it is not like Ma Long's serve. And it is a pretty nice Siva Schopenhauer serve.



It is not like Samsonov's serve or Ma Long's serve. But it is still a good serve.



It is not.


After his toss he is upright. Before the toss he is more upright than he would be in a match because he is sort of playing around. As he swings his upper back rounds forward still even though, not as much as it would in a serve in a match. His arm moves back and around his back as the elbow partially unbends on his backswing. Your arm doesn't really unbend when you backswing. Your arm moves almost straight away from and straight towards the table when you swing where Ma Long's arm starts behind his back, moves out to the side and at the end of the motion his arm is moving towards his hollowed out abdomen. Your racket moves a tiny bit towards your body because of your wrist. But your arm is moving forward. Not towards your body.

But the biggest difference would be what Ma Long is doing with his legs. His weight starts in his back leg, and in your video it is easy to see how much he moves his weight from the back leg towards the front leg and the table so his whole body weight is moving forward. Instead of that, you twist. That may work as well but the two movements are nothing alike. And in your video, Ma Long is serving with a stance he would not use in a match. His legs are completely different from how he would have them in a match. But in a match he still uses his legs to get a lot of forward momentum with his torso. You are getting rotational movement with your torso. But your body is not moving forward: it is twisting.

Again, this is not to point out things that are correct or incorrect. Your serves are very good. But they are just not like Ma Long's serves.



If your arm and his arm are moving in completely different planes of movement, is there a point here? You both brush. Your contact is good. Ma Long's contact is exceptional. But your rackets are moving in different directions as is every other part of your body.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia
He is upright because its a high toss serve. Don't confuse people with wrong information.
talking about malong video*

darnner123
12-04-2015, 11:26 AM
I don't understand one thing though, as Carl stressed as you practice your service evolves naturally, and I guess Ma Long's service came to be how it is today after a lot of practicing. So, is it possible for someone who hasn't practiced his services that much to get the same result by copying ? From my experience from practicing my guess is no...
Im pretty sure u just have to understand how the serve works like brushing underneath or sideways, you know all those basic stuffs. It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as you get the job done ... I think ... to a certain degree :D.

SquareBall
12-04-2015, 12:23 PM
I agree with the above with one edit, "as long as you get the job done consistently "

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UpSideDownCarl
12-04-2015, 12:49 PM
Since we both of us are from yogic background, I would say the need of producing serves of top players is from karma yogic idea, acting on the benefits of greater good than the individual.

Personally, I would give a different interpretation of the Karma issue if I wanted to explain it that way. But instead I will talk about what in Yoga gets called SvaDharma. Your Dharma. The actual, correct path for you. Not the one you choose. But the one that has been given to you by your being. And in the philosophy of yoga it is better to live out your own dharma fully and completely than to try and imitate another person's path.

So go practice your own serves and, if I was you, I would leave off calling them someone else's serves. That can be seen to be a false dharma.

Siva Schopenhauer
12-04-2015, 08:59 PM
I am in complete disgreement on the way we see it.


The actual, correct path for you. Not the one you choose

To say I chose to do it would be false because I said early that is the best thing I could do. So, it is inherently natural to me.

Further, SvaDharma is a subjective issue and I will leave it everyone's own interpretation

Siva Schopenhauer
12-04-2015, 09:01 PM
True story, I didn't mean to offend him. so, I didn't comment on it. :)

Siva Schopenhauer
12-04-2015, 09:07 PM
I don't understand one thing though, as Carl stressed as you practice your service evolves naturally, and I guess Ma Long's service came to be how it is today after a lot of practicing. So, is it possible for someone who hasn't practiced his services that much to get the same result by copying ? From my experience from practicing my guess is no...

I would say pareto logic is applicable here. To get 80% done, you need 20% effort. My aim is not achieve perfection,. But getting the most fundamental things right. As carl had pointed out many things ought to be changed. But, it doesn't years or months to improve this serve. Just keep focus, right attitude, the ability to fail and comeback to ground zero. So, In my experience I would say it is possible

SquareBall
12-04-2015, 09:33 PM
Then I say, Prove it ;)
Well I am kidding but I practice services consistently some time now, so let me tell you this, yes you could get 80% done with 20% effort, but, you can easily put a lot of effort and get nothing and that's because some little details make it impossible to execute the serve, and the problem is that you will need extra effort to get rid of that mistake that has become a habit.
But I see your point. Also I saw your facebook account and you are really good at chess, congrats !

Siva Schopenhauer
12-04-2015, 09:46 PM
Then I say, Prove it ;)
Well I am kidding but I practice services consistently some time now, so let me tell you this, yes you could get 80% done with 20% effort, but, you can easily put a lot of effort and get nothing and that's because some little details make it impossible to execute the serve, and the problem is that you will need extra effort to get rid of that mistake that has become a habit.
But I see your point. Also I saw your facebook account and you are really good at chess, congrats !

You are quite when saying


you can easily put a lot of effort and get nothing and that's because some little details make it impossible to execute the serve, and the problem is that you will need extra effort to get rid of that mistake that has become a habit.

In my own experience, to serve the heavy backspin consumed many days in immersion. Because, I was missing the minute details of brushing through the ball. I would say it is a mixture of chance, perseverance and talent.

Other thing is till you capture your motions in the camera, you don't really know what you actually serve and what you think you serve. Then, when reality strikes, you come to ground zero and have to start again. It is a hell lot of time gone wasted compared to the results one reaps. But, that is lfe.

Yeah, chess taught me a lot about learning new things. The path was rough but it paid out well

UpSideDownCarl
12-04-2015, 11:05 PM
Well, regardless of what you choose to do, have fun and keep practicing.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

Siva Schopenhauer
12-06-2015, 03:07 AM
Well, regardless of what you choose to do, have fun and keep practicing.
Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

Sure, upsidedownCarl

Suga D
12-07-2015, 01:36 PM
Although i agree that it is way better to originate than to duplicate, but on the other hand i wouldn´t be 'pms'-ing too much about this either. As long as you don´t run around and sign autographs as Ma Long there´s not much to worry about... ;)

Look where these serves got you. I´ve seen other people not copying someone else´s serve but also not even getting CLOSE to serving as good as you do. You really seem to have a talent for that. Keep it up, no matter what others might say or write...

Siva Schopenhauer
12-07-2015, 01:54 PM
Although i agree that it is way better to originate than to duplicate, but i wouldn´t be 'pms'-ing to much about this either.

Look where these serves got you. I´ve seen other people not copying someone else´s serve but also not even getting CLOSE to serving as good as you do. You really seem to have a talent for that. Keep it up, no matter what others might say or write...

Thanks Suga, Yeah it was too much bitching around from my side. Never mind!

When I was serving like myself, I didn't know anything about spin, deception, racket angles and feel. I owe everything to the ****ing internet, youtube and to the community. I hope of coming back with videos with explanation to share what I have learned. Thanks a ton for giving a hand:D:o

Suga D
12-08-2015, 05:33 PM
You're very welcome. I think everybody can learn from everyone.
Like Marley said: each one teach one. ;)
Plus
We only can show you where the fruits are growing. You have to pick them for yourself, if you know what i'm sayin' ;)

Keep it up, buddy.

Siva Schopenhauer
12-09-2015, 04:59 PM
You're very welcome. I think everybody can learn from everyone.
Like Marley said: each one teach one. ;)
Plus
We only can show you where the fruits are growing. You have to pick them for yourself, if you know what i'm sayin' ;)

Keep it up, buddy.

Marley is a great guy, I start crying whenever he sings. I knew very little of him but still there is something so profound :)