Short pips for FH due to shoulder injury, suggestions

Inkognito · Dec 2, 2015

Hi!

I am an upper end class 2 player in Sweden who need suggestions for short pips in FH. Play for fun but have managed to win some competitions in class 2, go to semi/quarter in vets national championship and qualify to the ordinary national championship (doubles). Have had surgery on my shoulder and it went well but now it's back to square one again

Instead of stopping with table tennis, I'm going to try experiment with short pips in FH. Going to test Rakza PO and would appreciate some other suggestions of short pips rubbers that might suit me (using a Butterfly Photino blade). Going for a FH rubber that kan end/kill the ball. Have a ok heavy spinned serve and plays a very BH oriented gamestyle with a great weakness in FH due not being able to loop. Never been a FH type of player but now it's just ridiculous

Any special things I should have in mind while doing the transition from inverted rubber to short pips in FH?

Thanks
Inkognito

brabhamista · Dec 2, 2015

Hey Inkognito!

Sorry to hear about your shoulder. I hope you'll recover soon.

OK, so you're looking for a fast, crisp SP by the sounds of it. I also gather you do not care very much about the spin values and prioritise speed.

I've played SP forehand for about 6-7 years now. I've tried a few different rubbers over the years and I'd recommend Haifu Dolphin or Tuttle Summer 3C. They are both modern SPs, but with different characteristics.

Rubbers
In short, Summer 3C has fantastic control and good speed. It's not very bouncy which helps a lot with SP serves so it is spinny enough to produce good serves. It's also fast enough to put balls away, but it's main pro is it's control. It's not pre-boosted (and doesn't need to be.) The sponge is soft and the topsheet on the hard side.

Haifu Dolphin is very spinny and very fast. The control is still good. Not as good as Summer 3C, but good enough to place the ball pretty much where ever you like. It is however pre-boosted and quite bouncy. Serves are OK, but your touch needs to be spot on to generate very spinny serves. The sponge is soft and the topsheet is medium soft.

Both of these rubbers are very good. Choosing one over the other is just about your personal preference, really. Either way, you can't go wrong with any of them. They will serve you well, each in their own way. Unfortunately there is no magic bullet with SPs (just like with inverted) so you're dealing with trade-offs here as well. What suits your game the best is your best pick.

Blade
Ideally an good blade for SP should be stiff. It doesn't need to be hard, soft is fine too (especially if you play a more defensive SP style like Gao Jun. Hard is better for pure hitters though). But most importantly, flex is not great as it'll make the blade/rubber combo feel "mushy" and imprecise when you are looking for a crisp and clear feeling.
I'm not familiar with the Photino so I say keep it and see how it feels. If it does feel mushy, you should go for a stiffer blade, IMHO.

You can get the Haifu from sydsport.com in Sweden.
The Summer 3C is available from ttdd.de in Germany.

brabhamista · Dec 2, 2015

A few tips about transitioning to SP

SPs are about speed and control, not spin. (All mentions of spin are relative. Even a very spinny SP is less spinny than the least spinny inverted.)

Don't go for full power. The harder you try, the less control and speed you'll get. SPs are really about controlling the power. Remember that when you use 90-100% of your full power, the swing will be slower. This is because the more power you try to use, the less relaxed your arm will be. Tensioned muscle fibres will not be quick and will not produce maximum speed.

Use 40-50% for most of your shots. Your arm will be more relaxed, your swing will be quicker and the ball speed higher. This is hard to do, but once you get the hang of it it makes your whole game smoother and more relaxed. Don't worry, you will produce enough speed to kill the ball.

If you want to topspin with SP, try not to increase the spin by closing the bat angle. You should try to hit the ball almost squarely at the back with SP so change the angle of the stroke instead. It will give you much more control and maintain speed. If you change the bat angle, the ball will eventually drop off the bat due to the lower friction values an SP has compared to inverted.

Never try to loop with SP. Although it is possible, it's futile and you'll lose every rally against inverted. You'll never produce enough spin to overcome the incoming spin and you'll never produce enough spin to command and win a looping rally. Try to hit crisply and through the spin instead.

Take the ball early, before or at the top of the bounce. This gives you one of your main advantages: you rob the opponent of reaction time. If possible, never hit after the top of the bounce. You can't lift efficiently with SP due to lack of topsheet grip.

Stay close to the table. SP aren't at it's best away from the table. 2 meters behind is too far away and you're giving up your advantage.

Shorten your stroke. It should be about half that of an inverted swing.

Use a stroke closer to your body. Kind of like a chicken wing stroke. Don't swing with a fully extended arm. You'll lose control and speed.

Try to hit the ball crisply at all times. By crisply I mean quickly (but don't rush!) and decisively. The crisper the hit, the more control and speed. (If you half hit or if you're half committed, the ball will go into the net.)

Try to push backspin a lot less than with inverted. SPs are great at continuing spin so roll it or flick it instead. It's one of the most effective SP shots and a great opening. Don't go for speed. Placement is key here.

There. That's way too long, but I hope it helps a bit.

Good luck and happy SP-ing! ;-)

Baal · Dec 2, 2015

Start with Butterfly Raystorm. Closest SP to inverted in existence. An easier transition.

Suga D · Dec 2, 2015

A friend of mine is over 60 and also had some serious problems with his shoulder. He plays SP on FH and LP on BH and now uses a very light blade weighing less than 70grams and says his shoulder is now much better.
But he plays a rather defensive chopping style though.

Inkognito · Dec 3, 2015

Tested Rakza PO for 2h this evening. It went surprisingly pretty well! Was a good boost regarding the speed when paired with the Photino. Maybe I just had a very good session but atleast my shoulder ddin't hurt afterwards. I followed the most of brabhamistas tips, a BIG THANKS to you

I found a site saying that Rakza PO, Haifu Dolphin and Palio Flying Dragon hade the same qualities, anyone know if this is correct? Regarding my shoulder, have had rehab for 3,5 almost 4 years and did a shoulder surgery in may, went ok but after this weekends matches I'm back to square 1, so a "recovery" won't happen and that's why I'll give SP a fair chance. Almost changed to SP 2 years ago but the cortisone injections kinda helped (at the moment). Played some matches too and heavy spinned serve (with the Airoc Astro I have in BH) with my BH play went well and I was surprisingly safe in FH. The hardest strokes was the ones on low half long in FH and the simple smash (!), it was much easier with the more relaxed strokes. The Rakza PO I tested was 2.0 and ordered one in max. I played with my arm pretty close to my body, so no chinese FH technique

Seems like that "chicken wing" style relieved my shoulder

Paccheco · Dec 3, 2015

Ive been using Rakza PO for about 2months i think. Got it on a Tenor and paired with a Rakza 7.
It is really a good SP. Some of my colleagues who were using Blze Speed, Extend PO, Hammond Speed and 802-40, as instantly as they tried my bat, they were seduced by Rakza PO

All of em use it now, but we all use it as shakehand backhand.
It sure got plenty of speed to use it as FH. I think there is a PRO top100 who uses it as FH with rakza 9 at the backhand.
Im glad to see more ppl using Rakza PO. I hope you get as much fun as i have with it, after all it is all that matters.

Thoughtful,
Raul Pacheco.

brabhamista · Dec 3, 2015

Baal said:
Start with Butterfly Raystorm. Closest SP to inverted in existence. An easier transition.

Yup, that's right. It's an easier transition along with 802-40, IMHO.

The way I see it, you have a choice when going to SP. You can choose an SP closer to inverted or you can choose an more traditional SP.

The advantage of SPs like Raystorm is - like Baal pointed out - an easier and faster transition. It's also easier to keep motivated if you see instant progress.
The downside is that you can use slightly bastardised versions of inverted strokes to play with it. You don't really feel any need to adopt to proper SP strokes.

The advantage of a more traditional SP is that it forces you to adapt your strokes and learn how to hit the ball properly with SP. It simply won't let you get away with using inverted strokes. Basically, you have no choice but to adapt. It sounds like a negative, but it's a positive as later on true SP strokes enables you to tap into the full potential of SP. With bastardised inverted strokes you will only ever get halfway, IMHO.

The downside is of course that it will take a lot longer and much more effort to transition. There is A LOT to learn about SP when coming from inverted.

Personally I feel that if you are serious about and committed to trying SP, you should jump in at the deep end and go for a more traditional SP. I believe it's the better choice in the long run.

Naturally, this is just my personal opinion. The choice is of course not mine, but belongs to whoever dares take the leap.

Baal · Dec 3, 2015

Yep. At the end of the day, since I never really learned a proper SP stroke, because I was using Raystorm as a "transitional crutch) I went back to inverted (I used SP on my BH). Oddly enough, once I got used to inverted again, my BH was improved! I have no idea why.

I never used SP on FH. I think on that side it makes even more sense to start with something like Raystorm, because I think you don't want to completely rework your stroke on that side. That would be asking a lot I think. I am not entirely sure what a proper SP FH would actually look like, it is pretty rare.

What does your countryman use, the guy who plays at an elite level with a SP forehand? Do you know?

brabhamista · Dec 3, 2015

I agree with what you say, it does require quite a lot to adapt your stroke when using a more traditional SP. There is no absolute truth to be found here. It's about individual ambitions and motivations, IMHO.

Baal said:
What does your countryman use, the guy who plays at an elite level with a SP forehand? Do you know?

I think both you and Paccheco are referring to Mattias Karlsson. He's using Rakza PO on forehand.
On a side note he just reached a career high ranking of 47 in the world. (Quite a bit higher than I would have guessed actually)

brabhamista · Dec 3, 2015

Suga D said:
A friend of mine is over 60 and also had some serious problems with his shoulder. He plays SP on FH and LP on BH and now uses a very light blade weighing less than 70grams and says his shoulder is now much better.
But he plays a rather defensive chopping style though.

I think that's a good suggestion for Inkognito. If a lighter blade can relieve the tension and decrease the stress on the shoulder, it's well worth trying.

Balsa blades are a possible solution. They are very light, excellent for pips play and can be found quite cheap. Thinner balsa blades are suitable for a defensive style and thicker ones for pips out hitting. They play a bit differently to other wood blades. Some love them, others never get used to them. Here's a good article if you're interested to know more about balsa characteristics.

The downside with balsa would be that it has less dwell time so you'll need to pair the blade with a softer rubber to regain some of it. It's still possible to create great amounts of topspin.

brabhamista · Dec 3, 2015

Inkognito said:
I found a site saying that Rakza PO, Haifu Dolphin and Palio Flying Dragon hade the same qualities, anyone know if this is correct?

Don't know about Rakza, but Dolphin and Flying Dragon are quite similar. The topsheet of Flying Dragon is a tad harder than that of Dolphin, IMHO, but the difference in playing characteristics is not particularly noticeable.

brabhamista · Dec 3, 2015

Baal said:
Oddly enough, once I got used to inverted again, my BH was improved! I have no idea why.

Forgot this one!

My guess is it's because the SP forced you into hitting the balls with more commitment and perhaps also to time the strokes better. Both those qualities are crucial for good SP play. With inverted they aren't essential, but they will improve the quality of the inverted shot. Possibly, maybe, perhaps or something like that!

Inkognito · Dec 6, 2015

Still using Rakza PO, kinda like it and still no shoulder pain. Any thoughts about differences between 2.0 and max in SP. As you already know I use Butterfly Photino but I usually play max in inverted and have always played kinda slow and spinny. Kinda new for me with the killers

NextLevel · Dec 7, 2015

brabhamista said:
Forgot this one!

My guess is it's because the SP forced you into hitting the balls with more commitment and perhaps also to time the strokes better. Both those qualities are crucial for good SP play. With inverted they aren't essential, but they will improve the quality of the inverted shot. Possibly, maybe, perhaps or something like that!

They are essential for high level inverted play as well with modern rubbers as modern technique requires solid contact before the spin motion.

brabhamista · Dec 7, 2015

NextLevel said:
They are essential for high level inverted play as well with modern rubbers as modern technique requires solid contact before the spin motion.

Yep, you're right, of course. I wasn't clear enough and what I wanted to say was that that the margin of error with SP is smaller than with inverted so if you don't commit properly you will be punished more severely with SP than with inverted. If you play a halfhearted shot with inverted, chances are it will land on the table whereas with SP it just won't come off. Baal probably learnt how to play within the SP margin of error - consciously or subconsciously - and this may be the reason why he experienced an increase in quality when reverting to inverted.

Good catch

brabhamista · Dec 7, 2015

Inkognito said:
Still using Rakza PO, kinda like it and still no shoulder pain. Any thoughts about differences between 2.0 and max in SP. As you already know I use Butterfly Photino but I usually play max in inverted and have always played kinda slow and spinny. Kinda new for me with the killers

If you like it and you feel fine, stick with it. No need to look for something else right now, if that's the case.

I'm not familiar with Rakza PO so I can't really comment on it, but personally I prefer 1.7-2.0 thickness to Max. The thinner sponges give me better feel for the ball, higher quality blocks and crisper hits. Max is a bit mushy for me. Thinner is also lighter which is a good perk when you stay close to the table and have much less reaction time than if you're at and beyond mid distance. A lighter bat is quicker to move into position.

This is my personal opinion based on my personal experience. I know others disagree and say "Go for Max". I can't speak for them so I'm afraid can't say how Max would benefit you (except possibly a slightly increased spin possibility)

You have both thicknesses now so try them both out a see what you feel and experience. In the end you can't rely on other people's advice. You just have to try it yourself and make your won decision. Only you know how it feels to you

TRoc · Oct 21, 2016

I play shakehand SP on FH and my setup is Waldner ULtra Senso Carbon with 802 40 Mystery 3 1.7mm on FH and Coppa 2.0 BH. Ive tried a bunch of blades with a bunch of rubbers and this seams to suit me best.

There arent many reviews on 802 40 Mystery 3.....actually none and let me tell you this is the best SP for any player who uses shakehand pips on FH......Ive tried 802 40 2..0 and 1.8.......ive tried Spectol 1.3 and DHs DRagon 2.0 and the Mystery 3 was the best by far.

WHY......its a bit spinnier than regular 802 40 and a bit slower. Im a close to table FH blocker and BH attacker....I use my short pips for great serve return.....great short blocks but unlike other short pips it has enough spin to get the ball to come down. And my FH attacks are just fast enough to be fast where the other pips simply cant get the ball down fast enough as they go too long.

If your a regular club player give this a try.........play a cat and mouse game.....use pips with coppa for serve deception and variance.....use pips to return serves. People always talk about attacking with short pips......which im sure at the pro level is what there talking about......but for a shakehander you should use a pip with some spin or you will struggle to get the ball on the table.

Lula · Oct 21, 2016

Helloo! how should SP on forehand affect your shoulder less? With SP you need to take the ball early, at the highest point otherwise you can not play hard. If you drop the ball below the highest point the SP is bad because you can not generate the same amount of spin. Close to the table and with short pimple you play a short stroke where you need to tense your muscles a bit to stop the stroke. More than with a regular rubber? I believe that it is easier to generate power from the body with a regular rubber and when you do that you to relax the arm. But try SP on forehand! it's fun! I play with a hard blade and haifu and i feel that becaue this together is pretty stiff and hard i need to move my arm very fast. I believe that the old chinese penhold players had something like this. Very good close to the table when someones loop at you. If the shortpimple i softer like the rakza PO it is more lika a regular rubber and you dont need to move the arm as fast. Compare he zhi wen, wang zeng yi with mattias karlsson. I think Karlsson plays with softer rubbers so it is more lika a regular rubber. I think a softer short pimle is the better option for you, because you will get more help from the rubber but it also depens on how you want to play. If you really have problem with the shoulder maybe you should consider a thinner sponge and a short rubber without grip so the ball gets more strange. Maybe you can go full crazy and play like carl prean but with forehand. He played offensive with long pimple. Good luck.

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Short pips for FH due to shoulder injury, suggestions

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