Rubber thickness advice

Hi Guys

My friend currently uses a Donic Waldner All+ blade with DHS Neo H2 FH and Skyline Neo 2 BH.

However now she wants to make the change from chinese rubbers to European after practicing with my Joola Rhyzm however at some points it was abit fast so I have been looking at some other rubbers for her and came to Tibhar 1Q Sound now due to European rubbers being a lot more springy than chinese I've decided between 1.7 and 1.9mm thickness.

My questions are:
1) Is the difference of speed to control ratio a lot between 1.7 and 1.9?
2) Does anyone have experience with Tibhar 1Q sound especially in either 1.7 or 1.9 thickness?

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I've had various coaches tell me that thicker sponge does not add spin. All it does is sacrifice control but give you more speed. 1.9 also isn't very thick so you should be fine with that.

Thicker sponge may not add spin, but makes it easier to generate spin, especially when the rubber is hard.

With a soft rubber however, 1.9 is fairly nice to play with and sufficient.

Nevertheless I would not settle for 1Q Sound as all versions of 1Q are going off the market.
 
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I'm the process of testing the same, I'm currently giving a Tenergy 1.7mm a spin on OFF and ALL blades, as early as it is in the testing stage, I'm agreeing on most that has been said in different forums and that PathFinder video. You get good control, good feel for the ball (you feel it through the blade), it excels in flat hitting and smashing as it seems more direct (doesn't randomly arc if you open blade slightly) and predictable (land where you smashed it), pushing is easier and accurate (doesn't pop the ball up if you go in lazy, can control landing near or far of the net). It surprises me how a rubber retains it's properties of what makes it unique even in the 1.7mm thickness, still plays like a Tenergy.
Where it didn't work for me is spin, and unfortunately this is where a majority of the the rallies are at in table tennis, looping, counter looping. The extra less bounce didn't make up for the loss of spin in my opinion. Even non boosted it still bounced pretty tensor like. I was surprise to see it didn't bottom out though, I found this extremely weird considering I have bottomed out a BlueFire M2 MAX without much effort (forehand drills).
I'm currently going through the phase of OFF + thin, ALL + thick and ALL + thin to see the results im getting. I think I'm slowly starting to understand why nobody in pro leagues uses thin sponges, yet at the same time there is always those 2-3 old guys at your local div1 excelling with thinner sponges, ALL blades, which confuses you even more.
Worth a read http://www.tabletennisdb.com/blog/slow-down-son/ but whats even more worth is checking the comment section in the article.
 
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I've had various coaches tell me that thicker sponge does not add spin. All it does is sacrifice control but give you more speed. 1.9 also isn't very thick so you should be fine with that.
I hate statements like that whether I agree with them or not.
Why doesn't the thicker sponge add spin? Is this an opinion or a tested fact and if so where is the documentation?

I agree with the coaches in general but there is a lot more to this issue than just the thickness of the rubber. The COR is what matters. It is possible to have thick rubbers with low COR like a lot of Chinese rubbers. Thick soft rubbers can also have a low COR. The point is that generalizations are not good.

Spin is generated by the top sheet stretching and snapping back. The sponge allows the top sheet to stretch some but the pips probably allow the top sheet to stretch the most on the sponge. Push a ball against the rubber at the edge of your blade and watch the pips and sponge deform. I have T25 and the pips are so large they don't allow the top sheet to stretch much at all.

What I do know is that thicker rubbers don't bottom out as easily. Thicker rubbers can absorb more energy than thinner rubbers. The question is what percentage of that absorbed energy gets returned to the ball.

I prefer thinner rubbers but I like the DHS Neo rubbers. It is too bad they don't come in thinner sheets. :(
 
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Okay, first, a disclaimer: I am just joking around.

Why doesn't the thicker sponge add spin?

Oooo, wait, I think I know this one: I bet he's gonna say the player generates the spin.

Spin is generated by the top sheet stretching and snapping back.

Darn it: I'm wrong again.

The question is what percentage of that absorbed energy gets returned to the ball.

Oh, wait...I must know the answer to this one....ummm, man....I give up. What's the answer? Does the answer have anything to do with the technique of the player?

Nah, joking aside, good post Pnachtwey. If anyone is paying attention Pnachtwey just explained how the different Tenergy rubbers can have the same sponge and rubber formula in the topsheet and play so differently when the only actual difference is the pip structure in the topsheet.


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Nah, joking aside, good post Pnachtwey. If anyone is paying attention Pnachtwey just explained how the different Tenergy rubbers can have the same sponge and rubber formula in the topsheet and play so differently when the only actual difference is the pip structure in the topsheet.
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But if the thick pips of the T25 keep it from being as spinny as the thinner pips of T05 then why aren't the even thinner pips of T64 more spinny yet? Won't the thinner pips of T64 let the T64 topsheet stretch even more? I don't think it is that simple in most cases.
hmmmm.
I don't think we know all the facts yet but you don't find the right answers until you ask the right questions.
 
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Well, speed and spin "rating" is generally a misleading term.

Should have been called speed an spin "aptitude" instead.

Faster combi doesnt mean faster smash.
Spinnier combi doesnt means more rpm.

You can never spin the ball faster than your hand speed, from a no spin ball feed, no matter what combi You use. Same goes to speed. :)

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But if the thick pips of the T25 keep it from being as spinny as the thinner pips of T05 then why aren't the even thinner pips of T64 more spinny yet? Won't the thinner pips of T64 let the T64 topsheet stretch even more? I don't think it is that simple in most cases.
hmmmm.
I don't think we know all the facts yet but you don't find the right answers until you ask the right questions.

There is thin and long vs. thin and short vs. thick and long vs. thick and short (I am sure some of these might be illegal in long/short pips). The pips of T25 and thick and short (extremely hard to deform). The pips of T05 are thin and short. The pips of T64 are thin and long. My guess is that length of the pips promotes linearity of the ball when blocked/hit flat hard and that thickness is about ease of deformation for producing spin (thinner and shorter pips are easier to deform to produce spin). But it's probably not correct and it's likely more complicated than that and needs more experiments.
 
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I've had various coaches tell me that thicker sponge does not add spin. All it does is sacrifice control but give you more speed. 1.9 also isn't very thick so you should be fine with that.

Bottoming out is a form of spin loss. So you have to place the statement in its proper context. All things being equal, thicker sponge allows you to swing harder and still get spin. So some people consider that "more spin". When you are at the top level and using spin to manipulate extremely fast and spinny balls, it's very different from doing that when you are at the club level and opening against some weak floaty push that doesn't challenge your ball control. Lots of higher level players use spin on almost every shot so they consider the avoidance of bottoming out much more important than the lower risk of missing the ball because they lack the control to deal with the touch demands of thicker sponge.
 
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Bottoming out is a form of spin loss. So you have to place the statement in its proper context. All things being equal, thicker sponge allows you to swing harder and still get spin. So some people consider that "more spin".
Yes, but that it not more spin for the same stroke. Although I still think it all comes down to preferences, thicker sponges are probably better if one plays away from the table where they can swing harder. I usually play close to the table. I find that even 1.8mm on the FH is good enough. I don't worry about bottoming out because the only time it happens is when I make a flat hit and not worried about spin. When I want to spin the ball is hit with a tangential stroke and the ball doesn't penetrate that deep because of the angle. 1.8mm Rakza 7 is fine on the FH if playing close to the table.

Lots of higher level players use spin on almost every shot so they consider the avoidance of bottoming out much more important than the lower risk of missing the ball because they lack the control to deal with the touch demands of thicker sponge.
Again, if you are applying spin your paddle is angled so there is a tangential motion relative to the ball. This effectively makes the rubber seem thicker just like sloped armor on a tank is effectively thicker. If a ball is stroked with the paddle being closed 45 degrees the effective impact speed normal to the paddle is reduced by almost 30%. If one can manage a very fine brush stroke the sponge will not be compressed much at all but the top sheet will stretch and snap back. It is during this time the rubber is under tension by the force being applied by the ball.

Oh, during this stretching and snapping back time the tension fairy may appear but since the stretching, applying tension, and restoration happens so quickly she is not visible without the aid of a very high speed camera and only then if you are the only one hitting and stretching the top sheet at that time. She can't be in two places at the same time. The rubbers you buy are NOT tensioned. There is no force holding them in a tensioned state. Also, the tension fairy couldn't possibly be in all those unopened packages of rubber at the same time.
 
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Again, if you are applying spin your paddle is angled so there is a tangential motion relative to the ball. This effectively makes the rubber seem thicker just like sloped armor on a tank is effectively thicker. If a ball is stroked with the paddle being closed 45 degrees the effective impact speed normal to the paddle is reduced by almost 30%. If one can manage a very fine brush stroke the sponge will not be compressed much at all but the top sheet will stretch and snap back. It is during this time the rubber is under tension by the force being applied by the ball.
Yes, but at higher levels, even the blocks they make against power loops come close to being at the same level of demands on the rubber as powerlooping an incoming loop. At this point, the fairy just waves the magic wand and the block works. While when you block, the fairy just smiles and say that you don't need her help. At higher levels, every little detail counts.
 
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Oh boy, are we gonna have another pissing contest? I predict Der_Echte will win any and all pissing contests.

For those of you who didn't know, here is some background information that just might be useful:

This is the Tension Fairy:

10cb741c71e17cdc745dad8f1ae0e66c.jpg


This is the Elasticity Fairy:

0ef92405f5eea8d1bac974d92443993f.jpg


And this is the Loop Fairy:

d454aec650df20ded15b31eb4509049c.jpg


Beautiful ladies all. But I prefer to hang out with the first two. They have told me that bigger impact and bottoming out are sometimes related even when you are brushing. But the first two tell me that the Loop Fairy is a jealous sort and likes it when people bottom out and that this nullifies the particular spheres of influence where the Tension and Elasticity Fairies hold sway.


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BeGo said:
You can never spin the ball faster than your hand speed, from a no spin ball feed, no matter what combi You use. Same goes to speed. :)

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Well, all the players who think that way always have a surprised look on their face when they hit the ball into the bottom of the net on my short underspin serve where my bat appears to barely move to more than a tiny speed.

Impact dynamics are complicated. There are MANY factors that come into play. Serving, you are catching and sending out the ball in a very tiny time frame. Timing, acceleration at the right time, and "TOUCH" which is a combo of grip pressure and control right at impact, understanding and effectively using these things are way more important than administering a 2 hour technical command conference call on the things that look high speed but are not as important as some underlooked fundamentals.

I say this in general to no one specifically. BeGo's statement got my attention and on the face it looks right, but a loose arm/wrist whipped into action with a sudden firm up on grip right at impact can make a ball get up and go (AND Spin up) WAY more than it looks from the swing (arm speed).

Everyone I play in the club at 1900-2300 level looks at my arm speed and sees pretty much the same arm speed, if not some less than other good amature players, but my opening shot has CONSIDERABLE more spin than everyone else's and no one has figured it out. They look at my body and arm and think the ball will have an 80 factor of spin, but it is carrying MAX 100+ and they keep blocking it out long or high and I attack again to win the point. Let them keep thinking what they see.

Hand pressure and acceleration, control and feel at impact are not so easily seen in a stroke when you are an opponent on teh other side looking at my average looking swing. Efficient and easy transfer of power IS noticeable by an experienced person, but that can be hard to tell sometimes. You really gotta know what to look for and pick up the small clues.
 
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I didn't see this earlier. There are too many fairies. USDC forgot to mention the throw fairy.
You can never spin the ball faster than your hand speed, from a no spin ball feed, no matter what combi You use. Same goes to speed. :)
This is SO WRONG!!! There would be no point in buying expensive rubbers if this was true.
Above I mentioned that the ball deforms the rubber. It is the rubber snapping back that adds to the paddle speed that creates extra spin or speed.

Der_Echte, it is paddle speed that matters. Acceleration is necessary to achieve the paddle speed but if the acceleration is high but the paddle speed is low then optimal results will not be achieved. It is best if the ball is hit at maximum speed where the acceleration is zero.
 
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Agree to both Der Echte and PNachtwey explanation. :)

Even then, the maximum spin I can get, in loops, chops, or services, is roughly the same, whatever non anti inverted, H3, Tack Chop, Tack Chop 2, Pro Xp, Sriver, Geo Tack, etc, except Donic Anti.

So I do agree, no need to pay for premium rubber either. $ 20, H3 price range, is enough "ceiling" for decent spin rubber ;-)

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There are too many fairies. USDC forgot to mention the throw fairy.

Sorry. Too many fairies to mention. The three I talked about are the ones that had to do with the subject at hand at that time. Now there are more in the mix of this pissing contest:

fairy_swarm_by_dragon_kiss-d2na79e.jpg

You guys will have to sort out whose who on your own. But, don't forget, if you are kind to the fairies they will be kind in return.
 
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