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tt89player
01-31-2016, 08:07 PM
Soon Tibhar will introduce these two new Evolution rubbers. I´m really looking forward to this :D

Tibhar Evolution FX-S: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/equipment/rubbers/13576-evolution-fx-s

Tibhar Evolution EL-S: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/equipment/rubbers/13577-evolution-el-s

NextLevel
01-31-2016, 08:13 PM
Wow - this is terrible news for me after I just went back to Tenergy 05... :(

tt89player
01-31-2016, 08:29 PM
Yeah, for me too. The Evolution EL-S will be between EL-P and MX-P and would fit perfectly to my requirements... :cool:

tt89player
01-31-2016, 08:44 PM
9134

Above the rubbers with their cover

Reaper
02-01-2016, 02:07 AM
they don't appear in the List Authorised Racket Coverings yet, also the latest are called Hybrid K1 and Crazy Bull... what happened to those?

Rayeez
02-01-2016, 02:15 AM
Where did you find the information for these rubbers?
I checked Tibhar's news, Catalogue, and their Evolution website, and there is nothing on them. I also check the list of rubber covers, and neither are there.
I highly doubt Tibharwould use such low resolution images to advertise new products either. This might mean you found a fake article.
Plus we have had a recent problem with trolls posting fake things. I'm not saying you're a troll by any means, I'm just saying, when posting something like this: Just site your sources before making a thread, so as to not arouse suspicion.
(I know from experience, it was quite embarrassing)
Here it is: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?11932-I-don-t-understand-the-USATT-rating-system

On another note, Elastic Spin (EL-S), and Flexible Spin (FX-S) makes no sense to me, if it is legitimate; the naming is awful.

Kokain
02-01-2016, 03:28 AM
http://www.tt-spin.de/tibhar-evolution-el-s-und-tibhar-evolution-fx-s/

Suga D
02-01-2016, 09:12 AM
Where did you find the information for these rubbers?
I checked Tibhar's news, Catalogue, and their Evolution website, and there is nothing on them. I also check the list of rubber covers, and neither are there.
I highly doubt Tibharwould use such low resolution images to advertise new products either. This might mean you found a fake article.
Plus we have had a recent problem with trolls posting fake things. I'm not saying you're a troll by any means, I'm just saying, when posting something like this: Just site your sources before making a thread, so as to not arouse suspicion.
(I know from experience, it was quite embarrassing)
Here it is: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?11932-I-don-t-understand-the-USATT-rating-system

On another note, Elastic Spin (EL-S), and Flexible Spin (FX-S) makes no sense to me, if it is legitimate; the naming is awful.

Rayeez, thanks for looking out, but this time you're on the wrong path, my friend.
tt89player appears to be a very dedicated player to the sport who also takes care of development of young players. He even runs his own webstore and his own blog and seems to have a little better contacts to tibhar than most of us. If you do a little research you can even find his phonenumber on his website and make contact.

That being said, i don't think trolls would do that. Most trolls hide behind the internet and want to stay unidentified, to hide their poor life they live.

@tt89player:
Hey Marcel, that sounds promising to me. Do you have a chance to get them, before they appear on the market? Please don't feel offended by the posts and i hope you're not uncomfortable that i'm giving out information about you.
Please keep us up to date.
Can you let us know how the rubbers feel, as soon as you've tested them?

Thanks in advance.

AndySmith
02-01-2016, 09:31 AM
they don't appear in the List Authorised Racket Coverings yet, also the latest are called Hybrid K1 and Crazy Bull... what happened to those?

Because they aren't on the LARC yet, don't expect them to be on the market until Q2/Q3 this year at the earliest.

A few sheets of Hybrid K1 have appeared on Asian forums, but nothing else has appeared yet.

No idea on Crazy Bull at all, but the name is epic and that goes a long way, eh?

Rayeez
02-01-2016, 10:23 AM
Suga D, I still want to know where he found the information, because the information he posted was from his own blog, written by him (tt89player), I still stand by what I said, that he may have found a fake article. I'm not saying he's trolling anymore though, I just want to see some viable evidence to support his info.

AndySmith
02-01-2016, 10:30 AM
Suga D, I still want to know where he found the information, because the information he posted was from his own blog, written by him (tt89player), I still stand by what I said, that he may have found a fake article. I'm not saying he's trolling anymore though, I just want to see some viable evidence to support his info.

Being skeptical is good! It should be the default position on everything IMO. This could be an elaborate ruse - it's happened before.

Have a look at this thread:

http://forum.tt-news.de/showthread.php?t=204157

It's a series of promotional images posted by the forum's ADVERTISING user, who posts promotional images as he receives them from the manufacturer. There are a lot of images, all in the same style as the EL-S, FX-S rubbers, and some of the products are ones we know really exist (like the Drinkhall blades, for example).

So it would be a very elaborate ruse, if a ruse at all, but still possible.

That's all I've got though.

Suga D
02-01-2016, 10:40 AM
Being skeptical is good! It should be the default position on everything IMO. This could be an elaborate ruse - it's happened before.

Have a look at this thread:

http://forum.tt-news.de/showthread.php?t=204157

It's a series of promotional images posted by the forum's ADVERTISING user, who posts promotional images as he receives them from the manufacturer. There are a lot of images, all in the same style as the EL-S, FX-S rubbers, and some of the products are ones we know really exist (like the Drinkhall blades, for example).

So it would be a very elaborate ruse, if a ruse at all, but still possible.

That's all I've got though.

Thanks for sharing, Andy.
I'm also on that forum, but somehow must have missed that Advertisement.

@rayeez: no problem, buddy. As Andy already mentioned, nothing wrong bout being skeptical.

:)

tt89player
02-01-2016, 01:58 PM
Haha, yeah sorry for the low resolution pic. I didn´t work to upload the real one ;-)

I try to get one of the testing rubbers, but I doubt to get one, ever since the Evolution rubbers are the most famous Tensor rubbers.
The rubbers will be on the new LARC List beginning April 2016. And will be released latest early summer (but there is no official date yet)
An If someone doubts me, I have no problem with that :-D

Shuki
02-01-2016, 02:25 PM
can't imagine a softer version of fx-p... im assuming the -s versions have the topsheet that mx-s had and will just adjust the sponges under them.

tt89player
02-01-2016, 03:02 PM
can't imagine a softer version of fx-p... im assuming the -s versions have the topsheet that mx-s had and will just adjust the sponges under them.

The FX-S will be harder. And the topsheets of EL-S and FX-S will be different to MX-S topsheet.
Hardness (sponge): MX-S > MX-P> EL-S> EL-P> FX-S> FX-P
4 different Topsheets:
MX-P = FX-P
MX-S
EL-P
EL-S = FX-S

UpSideDownCarl
02-01-2016, 05:59 PM
The FX-S will be harder. And the topsheets of EL-S and FX-S will be different to MX-S topsheet.
Hardness (sponge): MX-S > MX-P> EL-S> EL-P> FX-S> FX-P
4 different Topsheets:
MX-P = FX-P
MX-S
EL-P
EL-S = FX-S

This is really top quality information. To me it makes perfect sense that, with the success of the Evolution MX-S rubber that Tibhar would complete the series by adding Medium-S (EL-S) and Soft-S (FX-S).

It is interesting that in the P series, MX-P and FX-P have the same topsheet but EL-P has a different topsheet. And in the S series, EL-S and FX-S have the same topsheet but MX-S has a different topsheet.

It will be nice to have the full range of the S series. I may end up trying MX-S FH and EL-S BH at some point.

Thanks for the info.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

UpSideDownCarl
02-01-2016, 06:01 PM
Wow - this is terrible news for me after I just went back to Tenergy 05... :(

NextLevel: how much more spin do you feel you get from T05 than from MX-P? Are you using T05 2.1 or a thinner sponge?


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel
02-02-2016, 12:13 AM
NextLevel: how much more spin do you feel you get from T05 than from MX-P? Are you using T05 2.1 or a thinner sponge?


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Those are great questions. 2.0 MX-P weights the same as 2.1 T05. So maybe I could get more spin using MX-P max. Must try this sometime if I can handle the weight ;).

It's a bit of a throw and backspin attack thing. While T05 shoots out the ball more, there are those times when you feel absolutely lazy and just need the rubber to work for you. T05(or Tenergy in general) does that well. Other rubbers do it okay, but T05 does it well.

UpSideDownCarl
02-02-2016, 04:26 AM
Those are great questions. 2.0 MX-P weights the same as 2.1 T05. So maybe I could get more spin using MX-P max. Must try this sometime if I can handle the weight ;).

It's a bit of a throw and backspin attack thing. While T05 shoots out the ball more, there are those times when you feel absolutely lazy and just need the rubber to work for you. T05(or Tenergy in general) does that well. Other rubbers do it okay, but T05 does it well.

Cool. Good info. Yeah. I still feel like there is nothing that compares to the Tenergy sponge. I wonder what would happen if you could get the MX-P topsheet on a Tenergy sponge. It would be fun to test that.

I don't think you can really go wrong with the Evolution or Tenergy series. If I ever have a connection where I can get Tenergy for a big discount, again, I will be happy to use it. I still have a T05/T64 setup that I got from Mike that is only lightly used that I am probably going to use it at some point.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

UpSideDownCarl
02-02-2016, 08:40 AM
BTW: When I started using MX-P I thought it weighed a lot. I noticed how much more my racket weighed with it than with the previous rubbers (Victas). Then, I decided the weight did not matter to me and that heavier was fine. And I stopped noticing it. Your arms are strong. I am pretty sure the extra weight would not be a big deal.

Shuki
02-03-2016, 08:31 PM
Those are great questions. 2.0 MX-P weights the same as 2.1 T05. So maybe I could get more spin using MX-P max. Must try this sometime if I can handle the weight ;).

It's a bit of a throw and backspin attack thing. While T05 shoots out the ball more, there are those times when you feel absolutely lazy and just need the rubber to work for you. T05(or Tenergy in general) does that well. Other rubbers do it okay, but T05 does it well.

you say you think theres a chance you could get more spin with mx-p MAX. Seamiller once told me that he doesn't believe you get more spin with thicker sponge, he says all you get out of it is speed. do you disagree with this? Some of the spinniest loops i've ever felt are from players that refuse to use max sponge, but their reasoning had nothing to do with spin or speed, it was about the added control they felt they had with thinner sponge.

im very curious about what you think about sponge thickness effect on spin, because i've heard a lot of conflicting views. And the "engineer" players do make compelling arguments that the thicker sponge should add spin.

Shuki
02-03-2016, 08:35 PM
The FX-S will be harder. And the topsheets of EL-S and FX-S will be different to MX-S topsheet.
Hardness (sponge): MX-S > MX-P> EL-S> EL-P> FX-S> FX-P
4 different Topsheets:
MX-P = FX-P
MX-S
EL-P
EL-S = FX-S

so will fx-s topsheet have the fx-p sponge?

NextLevel
02-03-2016, 08:47 PM
you say you think theres a chance you could get more spin with mx-p MAX. Seamiller once told me that he doesn't believe you get more spin with thicker sponge, he says all you get out of it is speed. do you disagree with this? Some of the spinniest loops i've ever felt are from players that refuse to use max sponge, but their reasoning had nothing to do with spin or speed, it was about the added control they felt they had with thinner sponge.

im very curious about what you think about sponge thickness effect on spin, because i've heard a lot of conflicting views. And the "engineer" players do make compelling arguments that the thicker sponge should add spin.

Thicker sponge just allows you to get more spin on harder shots. It's really about the bottoming out effect - you have more sponge before you get too deeply into the wood with thicker sponge. But on thinner brush shots, the spin is about the same and the control of the thinner sponge may help. I tend to brush the ball fairly hard so I am a bit torn on this one. I tend to prefer the thinner sponge because of (arthritis and) weight. There is also less rebound so there is more control and potentially more spin - but when you loop hard, you take more risks with thinner sponge. But I play close to the table and hit hard enough shots regardless that I have ways to go before I think it becomes a huge deal, though I would have to try max to get an idea of what I am missing if anything.

Shuki
02-03-2016, 08:51 PM
does bottoming out happen more often with thicker sponge? it happens to me quite a bit as someone who does their blocks very passively. I use grip with thinner sponge and am a heavy brusher, for my drives and more solid blocks i've felt the thinner sponge has helped more than anything thicker could ever do. Especially for when I'm not in place to make a solid stroke.

I'd love to hear your comparison of the two when they're both brand new, and will gladly send you an mx-p 2.0 for free so you have both when they're new to test the differences.

NextLevel
02-03-2016, 08:56 PM
does bottoming out happen more often with thicker sponge? it happens to me quite a bit as someone who does their blocks very passively. I use grip with thinner sponge and am a heavy brusher, for my drives and more solid blocks i've felt the thinner sponge has helped more than anything thicker could ever do. Especially for when I'm not in place to make a solid stroke.

I'd love to hear your comparison of the two when they're both brand new, and will gladly send you an mx-p 2.0 for free so you have both when they're new to test the differences.

It depends on whether you flat block and whether you spin block and whether you use the extra sponge to make your block better. For someone like Dan Seemiller, he argues that thinner sponge and slower blades make his block with T05 better. He plays very close to the table though. My guess is that better players who spin counter and block a bit further back will appreciate the max sponge. I have also heard another good player tell me (not as good as Seemiller though) that he always wants the extra sponge to be able to use for more spin and control, and that he will take more sponge and a slower blade over less sponge and a faster blade.

Shuki
02-03-2016, 09:04 PM
It depends on whether you flat block and whether you spin block and whether you use the extra sponge to make your block better. For someone like Dan Seemiller, he argues that thinner sponge and slower blades make his block with T05 better. He plays very close to the table though. My guess is that better players who spin counter and block a bit further back will appreciate the max sponge. I have also heard another good player tell me (not as good as Seemiller though) that he always wants the extra sponge to be able to use for more spin and control, and that he will take more sponge and a slower blade over less sponge and a faster blade.

very interesting, a very strong player, Clifford Copley (Irl) who has the strongest shots i've ever felt prefers an all+, off- all wood blade with thinner sponge. He has more spin then ANY player i've played and was a top 20 player in the USA during the 70s.

Then I find what you said about seemiller playing close to the table very interesting. My coach does almost all our drills close to the table and says once your can play close to the table, playing far is easy. But at a training camp seemiller was hosting he kept telling me I need to back off the table a lot farther. I later found this was because my coach and he saw my playing style a little differently. I loop underspin easily which i do close to the table and danny wanted me to back up for another loop which would be a topspin loop. My coach saw me as someone who could open up easy and then wanted me to do a close to the table drive or shot instead of a second loop.

I've never been able to decide if my coach likes this style because it's how she was taught in china when she played and in general women play closer to the table, or she genuinely saw my style like this.

I find it interesting how two high level players could teach such different things but both be correct.

Shuki
02-03-2016, 09:08 PM
It depends on whether you flat block and whether you spin block

I vary both of these. My biggest strength is my touch, as I choke up pretty high on the racket, touch is easier for me than it should be. I can play almost equally as well without wrapping my fingers around the handle and just playing with the two main fingers. This way of holding the racket started when i took something my coach said too seriously. She always talked about finger pressure on different parts of each stroke. she then said "you should still be able to play without holding the handle" which i took too seriously and started playing like that to develop my finger pressure. It's actually caused me to have a "cocked wrist" on forehand strokes which she doesnt like and i have an unorthodox way of shakehand holding the blade. I'll upload a video of how I hold it later.



anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread, ill open a new one with the video!

edit: heres the video http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?12257-My-unorthodox-Shakehand-hold

Ilia Minkin
02-03-2016, 09:31 PM
I loop underspin easily which i do close to the table and danny wanted me to back up for another loop which would be a topspin loop. My coach saw me as someone who could open up easy and then wanted me to do a close to the table drive or shot instead of a second loop.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but it is such a tempting question for me, as I'm facing this dilemma all the time. I eventually decided to back off a little so I can loop safer. Trying to drive the 5th ball close to the table caused too much timing errors, I feel like I'm not ready for it yet. Maybe I will make a comeback later, though. What is the other's opinion?

Shuki
02-03-2016, 09:38 PM
Sorry for hijacking the thread, but it is such a tempting question for me, as I'm facing this dilemma all the time. I eventually decided to back off a little so I can loop safer. Trying to drive the 5th ball close to the table caused too much timing errors, I feel like I'm not ready for it yet. Maybe I will make a comeback later, though. What is the other's opinion?
the other opinion was seemillers, which wanted me to open up with my loop and then back up for the follow up to do another loop against the topspin. I was very uncomfortable backing up as far as he'd like for me to but one thing he said about looping topspin was "the ball is going to make it to you, theres no reason for you to be close to the table, also when looping topspin you can loop it at any point, the rise or the fall, it doesnt matter"

Ilia Minkin
02-03-2016, 10:00 PM
theres no reason for you to be close to the table, also when looping topspin you can loop it at any point, the rise or the fall, it doesnt matter"


Well, the reason to stay close is to cut your opponent's time to respond. But it is a trade-off since you cut your own time as well. BTW, what is the name and location of the training camp you visited? Are there any upcoming ones?

Shuki
02-03-2016, 10:08 PM
Well, the reason to stay close is to cut your opponent's time to respond. But it is a trade-off since you cut your own time as well. BTW, what is the name and location of the training camp you visited? Are there any upcoming ones?
the training camp was at seemiller's facility in south bend, indiana. I'm not sure if you can sign up for them. We have a local player here in kansas who organized it with danny, as they played together as kids and about 8 of us went up there.

tt89player
02-04-2016, 09:42 PM
so will fx-s topsheet have the fx-p sponge?

No, both topsheet and sponge are different. The FX-S sponge will be harder.

Suga D
02-05-2016, 01:11 AM
No, both topsheet and sponge are different. The FX-S sponge will be harder.

Sounds interesting.

Mar5kid
02-09-2016, 05:59 PM
Interesting start to the year.
I'm already enjoying the FXP so looking forward to what the FXS will offer.
Maybe a good combo with FXP.

Subscribed.

scoops
03-21-2016, 05:38 PM
Haha, yeah sorry for the low resolution pic. I didn´t work to upload the real one ;-)

I try to get one of the testing rubbers, but I doubt to get one, ever since the Evolution rubbers are the most famous Tensor rubbers.
The rubbers will be on the new LARC List beginning April 2016. And will be released latest early summer (but there is no official date yet)
An If someone doubts me, I have no problem with that :-D

Let them doubt on, English national champs just been played and number 1 seed and winner Paul Drinkhall has evolution FX-S on his shirt i final. A tibhar sponsored player, is he advertising a fake hmmm, surely not lol

teddie
03-21-2016, 07:48 PM
No, both topsheet and sponge are different. The FX-S sponge will be harder.

So I guess it will be about 42.5? Because FX-P is 40

tt89player
03-22-2016, 04:14 PM
Let them doubt on, English national champs just been played and number 1 seed and winner Paul Drinkhall has evolution FX-S on his shirt i final. A tibhar sponsored player, is he advertising a fake hmmm, surely not lol

Haha, is first of April? No. So it should be true :-D

In Germany the rubbers will be available End of May

tt89player
03-22-2016, 04:20 PM
So I guess it will be about 42.5? Because FX-P is 40

As soon as I have the exact data, I will post it here. The Evolution rubbers have wider range of sponge hardness (eg. MX-S 46,3-48,3°)

Rayeez
03-23-2016, 08:50 PM
Let them doubt on, English national champs just been played and number 1 seed and winner Paul Drinkhall has evolution FX-S on his shirt i final. A tibhar sponsored player, is he advertising a fake hmmm, surely not lol

Okay, I was wrong, I admit it. I'm not doubting on, don't worry!
FX-S does sound intriguing seeing as FX-P was too soft for my liking and EL-P was uncomfortable.
Although, I wouldn't mind either of them at the moment.

ridderz65
04-07-2016, 08:22 AM
So basically are they trying to create an MX-S style super spinny rubber but with varying sponge hardness? I've been using the MX-S and I've been told I could do to go down a notch in sponge hardness. So EL-S could be my rubber. Providing they feel relatively similar to play with as the MX-S. I hope they don't play completely differently.

Tompa8888
04-08-2016, 08:25 AM
My setup,
Blade: Donic appelgren world champion 89 ST, weight is about 80g
Rubbers: Mx-p 2.1 red/black

High control, weight in total is 188g, speed is more than enough.
Highly recommended!

96909691

Airoc
04-08-2016, 03:40 PM
So basically are they trying to create an MX-S style super spinny rubber but with varying sponge hardness?

No. At least they are not using the same topsheet. FX-S and EL-S may have the same topsheet, but it will be different from MX-S.


I've been using the MX-S and I've been told I could do to go down a notch in sponge hardness. So EL-S could be my rubber. Providing they feel relatively similar to play with as the MX-S. I hope they don't play completely differently.

Expect the EL-S to be a softer MX-P rather than a softer MX-S. Still it could very much be your rubber ;-)

RajaLoopah
05-02-2016, 05:00 AM
Update guys?

Airoc
05-02-2016, 04:53 PM
Update guys?

Well, none of the two rubbers is out.

However, I´ve had a chance to play with FX-S and this rubber has a power you wouldn´t expect from a rubber with a sponge hardness around 43 degrees. It is highly controllable in short game and makes opening shots on underspin quite easy. The catapult is significantly lower than that of FX-P, as was to be expected. Spin is even better, and I´d say the final speed also.

It surely isn´t a soft rubber that will magically carry your shots over the net, but it allows for extreme precision in your shots if you hit the ball right. If you don´t, it will at least be more forgiving than the MX-S ;-)

ridderz65
05-02-2016, 11:04 PM
Well, none of the two rubbers is out.

However, I´ve had a chance to play with FX-S and this rubber has a power you wouldn´t expect from a rubber with a sponge hardness around 43 degrees. It is highly controllable in short game and makes opening shots on underspin quite easy. The catapult is significantly lower than that of FX-P, as was to be expected. Spin is even better, and I´d say the final speed also.

It surely isn´t a soft rubber that will magically carry your shots over the net, but it allows for extreme precision in your shots if you hit the ball right. If you don´t, it will at least be more forgiving than the MX-S ;-)

I've played with mx-s this season, however I'm now looking for a rubber that has a similar sponge hardness to tenergy 05/80 but with the new polyball enhanced grippy top sheet.
I love the grippy top sheet of mx-s/mx-p but I want something with a softer sponge underneath. Similar hardness to tenergy. Would EL-S or FX-S be what I'm looking for or should I look elsewhere from the Evolution series?

Airoc
05-03-2016, 08:42 AM
I've played with mx-s this season, however I'm now looking for a rubber that has a similar sponge hardness to tenergy 05/80 but with the new polyball enhanced grippy top sheet.
I love the grippy top sheet of mx-s/mx-p but I want something with a softer sponge underneath. Similar hardness to tenergy. Would EL-S or FX-S be what I'm looking for or should I look elsewhere from the Evolution series?

I am pretty sure EL-S will be exactly what you´re looking for. FX-S would be a bit too soft.

Anfi
05-15-2016, 06:45 PM
hi, im TIBHAR distributor in Chile and i have this information, its official. Evolution FX-S and EL-S are coming.

Gene Tuttle
05-15-2016, 10:07 PM
http://www.tt-spin.de/tibhar-evolution-el-s-und-tibhar-evolution-fx-s/

Luis Nasche
05-16-2016, 01:24 AM
I am pretty sure EL-S will be exactly what you´re looking for. FX-S would be a bit too soft.

I may like it too

tt89player
05-16-2016, 11:02 PM
Only two weeks left, then the rubbers will be available... At least here in Germany ;-)

NextLevel
05-16-2016, 11:11 PM
Only two weeks left, then the rubbers will be available... At least here in Germany ;-)

Can you compare these rubbers to my new old favorite, Andro Hexer?

ridderz65
05-25-2016, 01:30 PM
Well, none of the two rubbers is out.

However, I´ve had a chance to play with FX-S and this rubber has a power you wouldn´t expect from a rubber with a sponge hardness around 43 degrees. It is highly controllable in short game and makes opening shots on underspin quite easy. The catapult is significantly lower than that of FX-P, as was to be expected. Spin is even better, and I´d say the final speed also.

It surely isn´t a soft rubber that will magically carry your shots over the net, but it allows for extreme precision in your shots if you hit the ball right. If you don´t, it will at least be more forgiving than the MX-S ;-)

Do you have any idea as to when these two rubbers will be released? It's taking ages!

Airoc
05-25-2016, 03:35 PM
Do you have any idea as to when these two rubbers will be released? It's taking ages!

You will not like this but someone today asked for a release date for EL-S and got July 4 for an answer. He didn´t enquire about FX-S.

ridderz65
05-25-2016, 10:50 PM
You will not like this but someone today asked for a release date for EL-S and got July 4 for an answer. He didn´t enquire about FX-S.

In that case can you suggest any rubbers out there that are really similar to el-s that I can use to practice with until it's released? So I won't have to adjust to it too much?

Airoc
05-25-2016, 11:13 PM
In that case can you suggest any rubbers out there that are really similar to el-s that I can use to practice with until it's released? So I won't have to adjust to it too much?

I am pretty sure that EL-S will be a whole new beast ...

Even the FX-S that I got to try is different to everything else around because it is pretty soft, yet at the same time has very little catapult and so much spin.

Closest to EL-S you may find MX-S - the overall characteristics (low catapult, high spin) are similar, but of course MX-S is harder and EL-S has a different topsheet.

Luis Nasche
05-26-2016, 12:00 AM
Closest to EL-S you may find MX-S - the overall characteristics (low catapult, high spin) are similar, but of course MX-S is harder and EL-S has a different topsheet.

Have you ever tried boosting MX-S to make it softer and bouncier?

Airoc
05-26-2016, 10:20 AM
Have you ever tried boosting MX-S to make it softer and bouncier?

No, but it worked well with MX-P and Dymax Maximizer, it should work with MX-S as well.

Kokain
06-12-2016, 03:22 AM
From January till few weeks ago we couldn't shut you up guys, now that it's available in couple of stores nobody says a word or bats an eye. Looking forward from the EJ's to review this rubber, but probably a new thread is in order to skip the 3-4 pages of dead air. The price is bitter as expected as it's cost as much as tenergy. Granted in 3-4 months it should reach the usual tibhar level of 48$ and once China get their hands on it, will be on Ebay for around 25gbp. Question is do we want to wait till decent reviews start flowing or get something already for the new upcoming season....

AndySmith
06-12-2016, 07:55 AM
Available where?

Airoc
06-12-2016, 08:41 AM
Available where?

Not in Germany, where it is manufactured.

The large online retailers have it on their websites and in their catalogues to attract pre-orders, but currently the rubbers are expected early August.

The price is listed exactly the same as that of the other Evo rubbers.

Kokain
06-12-2016, 01:07 PM
Teesports had them since Tuesday (7/6/16) but the price is 46gbp and it's a promised 3 day delivery
http://www.teessport.com/rubbers-c6/tibhar-evolution-el-s-table-tennis-rubber-p9433

The Holland site had them before that but listed coming soon until 4-5 days ago, now it's possibly limited stock and price of 45eur
http://www.sporteurope.nl/nl/4/tib0200414/tibhar-evolution-el-s.aspx

tabletennis11 said they will get them on the official date of 06/06/16 and still haven't listed anything. Not that it matters, they are available when available, but interested to see when the shift will be happening and when places like tabletennisdb will finally list it. I want to know the exact sponge hardness, is it a swiss cheese pores and if the top sheet is soft unlike the EL-P. If it's anything like MX-S but in 47deg it might be a winner.

AndySmith
06-12-2016, 01:12 PM
TeesSport don't have them. Pick a thickness and colour and they'll tell you it's out of stock until August.

Very few sheets have ended up with connected people in Germany a few weeks back, but that's it. Not available on the general market yet.

Airoc
06-12-2016, 01:33 PM
Teesports had them since Tuesday (7/6/16) but the price is 46gbp and it's a promised 3 day delivery
http://www.teessport.com/rubbers-c6/tibhar-evolution-el-s-table-tennis-rubber-p9433

The Holland site had them before that but listed coming soon until 4-5 days ago, now it's possibly limited stock and price of 45eur
http://www.sporteurope.nl/nl/4/tib0200414/tibhar-evolution-el-s.aspx

tabletennis11 said they will get them on the official date of 06/06/16 and still haven't listed anything. Not that it matters, they are available when available, but interested to see when the shift will be happening and when places like tabletennisdb will finally list it. I want to know the exact sponge hardness, is it a swiss cheese pores and if the top sheet is soft unlike the EL-P. If it's anything like MX-S but in 47deg it might be a winner.

Well, the exact sponge hardness will be "from x to y" as with all the other Evolutions.

If you want an MX-S in 47 degree you might just go and get one, as its hardness is 45.7 to 47.7

The sponges will have large pores.

There are (once FX-S and EL-S are released) four, maybe even five different topsheets in this series.

FX-P and MX-P have the same topsheet.

EL-P has its own.

MX-S has its own.

And FX-S and EL-S may have the same, but different to all others, but there could also be a slight difference between the two.

Airoc
06-12-2016, 01:35 PM
TeesSport don't have them. Pick a thickness and colour and they'll tell you it's out of stock until August.

Very few sheets have ended up with connected people in Germany a few weeks back, but that's it. Not available on the general market yet.

If reviews on a German forum are anything to go by, there is exactly one sheet of FX-S in circulation ;-)
But I am pretty sure there are a few more around tested by people who generally don´t write in forums or give their feedback directly to TIBHAR.

Mar5kid
06-12-2016, 05:27 PM
If reviews on a German forum are anything to go by, there is exactly one sheet of FX-S in circulation ;-)
But I am pretty sure there are a few more around tested by people who generally don´t write in forums or give their feedback directly to TIBHAR.

can you please link / pm the German review

Airoc
06-12-2016, 05:53 PM
can you please link / pm to review

You can find the usual chit-chat before a rubber finally is released as well as a few posts about the actual FX-S rubber here

http://forum.tt-news.de/showthread.php?t=204727

tt89player
06-13-2016, 04:22 PM
Yeah, the rubbers were announced for end of may/ early June, but Tibhar or better to say ESN delayed the delivery.

As soon as I have them I will post here. I promise :)

the_M
07-09-2016, 11:35 PM
The only Shop where you can get them atm is tt-Shop.net, the owner is very Connected to tibhar. Matthias Landfried. He is also the a pro coach(used to be coach of Saarbrücken) and the owner of the German Forum tut-news.de

Airoc
07-11-2016, 07:28 AM
That is correct. The first batch sold out on Friday, but they have re-stocked on Saturday.

They have a few package offers like this

http://www.tt-shop.net/product_info.php?products_id=1345&osCsid=8711ba99fa92d54165559b72c81b71a9

where you can pick any two Evolution rubbers (including the new ones, although the site is not yet updated) plus an Illusion Killer blade and a case for an attractive price. Not sure if worthwile when shipped internationally. But the rubbers are actually in stock and I actually got one on Saturday and currently any other place claiming to have them is just luring you to pre-order but can not deliver instantly.

tt89player
07-11-2016, 02:59 PM
Tomorrow or Wednesday i will release my reviews about Tibhar Evolution EL-S and FX-S on my blog. I will also write a few lines here :cool:

tt89player
07-12-2016, 11:25 PM
http://www.tt-spin.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Tibhar-Evolution-EL-S-Belag-und-Cover.jpg
So after 3 hours of testing today, I will give you a short summary of my EL-S review.

The Tibhar Evolution EL-S is the best rubber for opening topspins. You can produce an enormous amount of spin there. The arc is very high and stable. In my opinion, EL-S is the best Tenergy 05 Alternative so far. MX-P is more powerfull and has less spin. With MX-S it is harder to create spin. The ballcontact with EL-S is amazing and very precise. Countertopspins can easily been played.

In comparison to other Evolution rubbers, EL-S has the most spin, its sponge hardness is between MX-P and EL-P and the topsheet ist medium-hard plus very grippy.

I will change to this rubber on my forehand from T05, because it has a better feel, control and still an amazing amount of spin with high arc.

NextLevel
07-12-2016, 11:29 PM
You want me to tell Tibhar to shut up and take my money... that's an evil review right there.

tt89player
07-12-2016, 11:36 PM
You want me to tell Tibhar to shut up and take my money... that's an evil review right there.

Hahaha... probably you should wait for good reviews, so that you don´t have to buy this rubber. But I don´t think there will be many :cool: This rubber is really a good one. With MX-P it didn´t work, MX-S was better but with EL-S, for me, I found what I was looking for.

Airoc
07-13-2016, 06:41 AM
http://www.tt-spin.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Tibhar-Evolution-EL-S-Belag-und-Cover.jpg
So after 3 hours of testing today, I will give you a short summary of my EL-S review.

The Tibhar Evolution EL-S is the best rubber for opening topspins. You can produce an enormous amount of spin there. The arc is very high and stable. In my opinion, EL-S is the best Tenergy 05 Alternative so far. MX-P is more powerfull and has less spin. With MX-S it is harder to create spin. The ballcontact with EL-S is amazing and very precise. Countertopspins can easily been played.

In comparison to other Evolution rubbers, EL-S has the most spin, its sponge hardness is between MX-P and EL-P and the topsheet ist medium-hard plus very grippy.

I will change to this rubber on my forehand from T05, because it has a better feel, control and still an amazing amount of spin with high arc.

I agree fully.

teddie
07-13-2016, 09:19 AM
What's the sponge hardness range written on the back of package of this EL-S and FX-S?

Airoc
07-13-2016, 09:26 AM
What's the sponge hardness range written on the back of package of this EL-S and FX-S?

This is the range:

TIBHAR Evolution EL-S Japanese 33,5 to 35 degrees approx/European 43,8 to 45,8 degrees approx

TIBHAR Evolution FX-S Japanese 31,5 to 33 degrees approx/European 41,0 to 43,0 degrees approx

AndySmith
07-13-2016, 09:29 AM
Hardness:

EL-S - JPN 33.5-35.0 EUR 43.8 - 45.8
FX-S - JPN 31.5-33.0 EUR 41.0 - 43.0

The hype is building...

Edit - bah, Airoc beat me to it. I remember Airoc being pretty slow last time I used it as well...

tt89player
07-13-2016, 10:14 AM
But from its feel, EL-S is between a medium rubber (EUR 45°, like Vega Japan...) and hard rubbers (EUR 47,5°, like Vega Pro, Donic Bluefire M1....) Without knowing what Tibhar says, I would say approximately EUR 46°

Airoc
07-13-2016, 10:31 AM
Hardness:

EL-S - JPN 33.5-35.0 EUR 43.8 - 45.8
FX-S - JPN 31.5-33.0 EUR 41.0 - 43.0

The hype is building...

Edit - bah, Airoc beat me to it. I remember Airoc being pretty slow last time I used it as well...

You mean the rubber? ;-)
It could indeed have more catapult for more people to like it, but the strange looking topsheet of the Calibra Tour series turned many people off and Airoc was largely overlooked, even more so Airoc Astro which is the better rubber. Still looking forward to testing Mantra, but I don´t expect it to deliver anything EL-S hasn´t already got.

AndySmith
07-13-2016, 10:37 AM
You mean the rubber? ;-)
It could indeed have more catapult for more people to like it, but the strange looking topsheet of the Calibra Tour series turned many people off and Airoc was largely overlooked, even more so Airoc Astro which is the better rubber. Still looking forward to testing Mantra, but I don´t expect it to deliver anything EL-S hasn´t already got.

:D

Stiga burned a lot of bridges with Calibra Tour, that's for sure.

I have to say that I'm bouncing off the walls for EL-S and FX-S. The initial reports are gushing with praise.

pleiades99
07-13-2016, 10:44 AM
But from its feel, EL-S is between a medium rubber (EUR 45°, like Vega Japan...) and hard rubbers (EUR 47,5°, like Vega Pro, Donic Bluefire M1....) Without knowing what Tibhar says, I would say approximately EUR 46°
Do you have any info on the weight of EL-S ? How is it compared to the equivalent thickness tenergy 05 or h3 neo. Just wondering which would be better for me 1.9~2.0 or full fat 2.1~2.2?

Sent from my Lenovo K50-t5 using Tapatalk

tt89player
07-13-2016, 10:59 AM
Do you have any info on the weight of EL-S ? How is it compared to the equivalent thickness tenergy 05 or h3 neo. Just wondering which would be better for me 1.9~2.0 or full fat 2.1~2.2?

Sent from my Lenovo K50-t5 using Tapatalk

Average weight of the packages (according to ML from tt-news):

Evolution EL-S http://forum.tt-news.de/images/smilies/blueright.gif 2.1/2.2 normal range 110-111g (up to max. 112, very rare 114/115)

Evolution EL-S http://forum.tt-news.de/images/smilies/blueright.gif 1.9/2.0 normal range 108-109g (up to max. 110)

Evolution EL-S http://forum.tt-news.de/images/smilies/blueright.gif 1.7/1.8 normal range 106-107g (up to max. 108)


Evolution FX-S http://forum.tt-news.de/images/smilies/blueright.gif 2.1/2.2 normal 106-107g

Evolution FX-S http://forum.tt-news.de/images/smilies/blueright.gif 1.9/2.0 normal 104-106g

Evolution FX-S http://forum.tt-news.de/images/smilies/blueright.gif 1.7/1.8 normal 102-104g

My EL-S black 1,9~2,0 had a weight of 109g with package, uncut 71g und on the blade 47g (Stiga blade).

pleiades99
07-13-2016, 12:51 PM
Thanks for the info tt89player

Sent from my Lenovo K50-t5 using Tapatalk

tt89player
07-13-2016, 01:48 PM
http://www.tt-spin.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Tibhar-Evolution-FX-S-Belag-und-Cover.jpg
I also testet yesterday the FX-S rubber.

For a medium-soft rubber (like Hexer Duro or Vega Europe DF / approx. EUR 42,5° sponge), it has the most spin, speed and dynamic that I´ve experienced so far. The greatest strength is the slow opening topspin. The amount of Spin is very high. It has more spin and speed than FX-P. Compared to the new EL-S, you can say it is a "light version" of this rubber. In comparison to FX-P I also like the higher arc, so it´s way easier to play topspins.
The topsheet is the same as with EL-S. So it´s grippy but also sensitive to your opponents spin.

Airoc
07-13-2016, 02:13 PM
http://www.tt-spin.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Tibhar-Evolution-FX-S-Belag-und-Cover.jpg
I also testet yesterday the FX-S rubber.

For a medium-soft rubber (like Hexer Duro or Vega Europe DF / approx. EUR 42,5° sponge), it has the most spin, speed and dynamic that I´ve experienced so far. The greatest strength is the slow opening topspin. The amount of Spin is very high. It has more spin and speed than FX-P. Compared to the new EL-S, you can say it is a "light version" of this rubber. In comparison to FX-P I also like the higher arc, so it´s way easier to play topspins.
The topsheet is the same as with EL-S. So it´s grippy but also sensitive to your opponents spin.

Again, I couldn´t disagree with the verdict.

NextLevel
07-13-2016, 02:19 PM
:D

Stiga burned a lot of bridges with Calibra Tour, that's for sure.

I have to say that I'm bouncing off the walls for EL-S and FX-S. The initial reports are gushing with praise.
Maybe a rubber to finally rule them all...

Ardenhouse165
07-13-2016, 02:24 PM
So, are we looking at EL-S for FH and FX-S for BH?
Good all round combo maybe?

Reaper
07-13-2016, 02:27 PM
hi tt89player great reviews,

Now that you've played with all the Evolution range, maybe you can create a chart, rating the rubbers in speed, spin and tackiness?

I'm quite interested in the tackiness deparment since i'm struggling with the disturbing lack of tack of my FX-P (I use eacheng plastic protectors and they stick slighly to my T80 FX but they slide right off the FX-P )

Since i need a little more speed, I'm between getting the EL-P, EL-S or FX-S, but i need to know... which is stickier?

AndySmith
07-13-2016, 02:44 PM
Maybe a rubber to finally rule them all...

Until the next one.

pleiades99
07-13-2016, 03:18 PM
Maybe a rubber to finally rule them all...
What about this:

tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=150163

I've seen Tom play in the top level of the British league and believe me he knows how to play so if it has his endorsement then it surely needs to be considered!

Sent from my Lenovo K50-t5 using Tapatalk

NextLevel
07-13-2016, 03:46 PM
What about this:

tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=150163

I've seen Tom play in the top level of the British league and believe me he knows how to play so if it has his endorsement then it surely needs to be considered!

Sent from my Lenovo K50-t5 using Tapatalk

He is also almost definitely Stiga-sponsored. I will be testing them but they don't excite me. I was a big time MX-S user and the main issue was the ball arc. This EL-S sounds to me like someone woke up and reworked Baracuda.

AndySmith
07-13-2016, 03:58 PM
He is also almost definitely Stiga-sponsored. I will be testing them but they don't excite me. I was a big time MX-S user and the main issue was the ball arc. This EL-S sounds to me like someone woke up and reworked Baracuda.

This is exactly it - Baracuda for the plastic masses. Paracuda.

Genesis might be great, but it's expensive for a Chinese-made rubber. I'm waiting for more reviews to come in on that one, or a gently used sheet to appear somewhere. Tom is a fantastic player operating at a far higher level than me. I need a few reviews from 65 year old retirees who play on a sunday morning on outdoor tables in the local park against hobos with bottles of cheap cider at stake. For balance.

tt89player
07-13-2016, 04:21 PM
hi tt89player great reviews,

Now that you've played with all the Evolution range, maybe you can create a chart, rating the rubbers in speed, spin and tackiness?

I'm quite interested in the tackiness deparment since i'm struggling with the disturbing lack of tack of my FX-P (I use eacheng plastic protectors and they stick slighly to my T80 FX but they slide right off the FX-P )

Since i need a little more speed, I'm between getting the EL-P, EL-S or FX-S, but i need to know... which is stickier?

Thanks!
For this weekend I planned to write an article on my blog about Tibhar Evolution rubbers and there will be a chart about Spin and speed and one with the arcs :cool: I will let you know about it when it´s done.

From what you wrote, I would highly recommend FX-S for you. FX-S has more spin and speed. The surface is also more grippy.
EL-S could be to fast when playing FX-P before.

But I don't know how firm your plastic protectors will stick to FX-S. I personally use the paper cartonage many rubbers like Butterfly have in the package to protect my rubbers.

tt89player
07-13-2016, 04:26 PM
This is exactly it - Baracuda for the plastic masses. Paracuda.

Genesis might be great, but it's expensive for a Chinese-made rubber. I'm waiting for more reviews to come in on that one, or a gently used sheet to appear somewhere. Tom is a fantastic player operating at a far higher level than me. I need a few reviews from 65 year old retirees who play on a sunday morning on outdoor tables in the local park against hobos with bottles of cheap cider at stake. For balance.


No. Plastacuda :D

NextLevel
07-14-2016, 11:26 PM
Can anyone buy and ship me a couple of sheets? I will refund the buyer.

slevin
07-15-2016, 06:10 AM
But from its feel, EL-S is between a medium rubber (EUR 45°, like Vega Japan...) and hard rubbers (EUR 47,5°, like Vega Pro, Donic Bluefire M1....) Without knowing what Tibhar says, I would say approximately EUR 46°

I find the ESN 45s to be a bit soft for me to play. 46 deg would be perfect.

TT11 said that they hope to have this in August.

AndySmith
07-15-2016, 09:33 AM
Can anyone buy and ship me a couple of sheets? I will refund the buyer.

If it helps, Tibi will have them available from next week.

NextLevel
07-15-2016, 03:39 PM
If it helps, Tibi will have them available from next week.

Has he provided pricing?

AndySmith
07-15-2016, 04:07 PM
Has he provided pricing?

Not yet. I'm sure it will be awesomely priced though. Hopefully it will slot into his current "All Tibhar" rubbers pricing scheme.

SlipSlopSlappy
07-16-2016, 09:07 AM
Can't wait for FX-S/EL-S reviews!

Meanwhile, can anyone explain why the evolution rubbers come with a sponge hardness range rather than a specific value like all other rubbers?
Does this mean that different batches are likely to harder/softer than each other?

Airoc
07-16-2016, 09:22 AM
Meanwhile, can anyone explain why the evolution rubbers come with a sponge hardness range rather than a specific value like all other rubbers?
Does this mean that different batches are likely to harder/softer than each other?

All rubber are like this. It´s a tolerance in manufacturing, corresponding with thickness. But not everybody feels the need to write it on the packaging.

AndySmith
07-16-2016, 09:34 AM
Can't wait for FX-S/EL-S reviews!

Meanwhile, can anyone explain why the evolution rubbers come with a sponge hardness range rather than a specific value like all other rubbers?
Does this mean that different batches are likely to harder/softer than each other?

I think sponge hardness varies in general across all ESN products, but Tibhar are the first (and only?) ones to make a marketing point about it and put it on the packet. There is quite a lot of chatter on the german forums from people who ask for their unopened sheets to be weighed by the store, and then to pick a lighter/heavier one in an attempt to get a softer/harder sponge.

It doesn't always work - one unfortunate EL-S buyer asked for a heavy sheet and when opening the packet found that two thick paper sheets were inside rather than one, and so they got a light sheet. Them's the breaks.

Ilia Minkin
07-16-2016, 09:19 PM
This is the range:

TIBHAR Evolution EL-S Japanese 33,5 to 35 degrees approx/European 43,8 to 45,8 degrees approx

TIBHAR Evolution FX-S Japanese 31,5 to 33 degrees approx/European 41,0 to 43,0 degrees approx

That is very interesting, EL-P's range is 32.5-34.0 in Jap scale. Any rationale beyond the harder sponge?

Airoc
07-17-2016, 12:28 AM
I think sponge hardness varies in general across all ESN products, but Tibhar are the first (and only?) ones to make a marketing point about it and put it on the packet. There is quite a lot of chatter on the german forums from people who ask for their unopened sheets to be weighed by the store, and then to pick a lighter/heavier one in an attempt to get a softer/harder sponge.

It doesn't always work - one unfortunate EL-S buyer asked for a heavy sheet and when opening the packet found that two thick paper sheets were inside rather than one, and so they got a light sheet. Them's the breaks.

True, but the shop offered help immediately and replaced/exchanged this package.

Airoc
07-17-2016, 12:30 AM
That is very interesting, EL-P's range is 32.5-34.0 in Jap scale. Any rationale beyond the harder sponge?

In terms of sponge hardness, EL-S as a newly developed rubber was meant to be placed between EL-P and MX-P. The topsheet is more elastic than that of EL-P though, because EL-P neither has the same as FX-P/MX-P nor MX-S nor EL-S/FX-S. So whether you wished for a more elastic EL-P or softer MX-P, this might just be your rubber.

laistrogian
07-17-2016, 06:10 AM
In terms of sponge hardness, EL-S as a newly developed rubber was meant to be placed between EL-P and MX-P. The topsheet is more elastic than that of EL-P though, because EL-P neither has the same as FX-P/MX-P nor MX-S nor EL-S/FX-S. So whether you wished for a more elastic EL-P or softer MX-P, this might just be your rubber.

How's the overall throw compared to tenergy?

All I need is a slightly slower and softer mxp with same or more spin.

Airoc
07-17-2016, 10:22 AM
How's the overall throw compared to tenergy?

All I need is a slightly slower and softer mxp with same or more spin.

If you can live with slightly less catapult also then roughly this is what you´ll get.

Ilia Minkin
07-17-2016, 04:38 PM
In terms of sponge hardness, EL-S as a newly developed rubber was meant to be placed between EL-P and MX-P. The topsheet is more elastic than that of EL-P though, because EL-P neither has the same as FX-P/MX-P nor MX-S nor EL-S/FX-S. So whether you wished for a more elastic EL-P or softer MX-P, this might just be your rubber.

Great, I will try EL-S as soon my EL-Ps wear out :)

Mart11
07-18-2016, 10:42 AM
Tibhar Evolution EL-S and FX-S available for 33.68 EUR at TTmode.com

They have it as a weekly special offer. Cheers

Airoc
07-21-2016, 10:27 AM
Tibhar Evolution EL-S and FX-S available for 33.68 EUR at TTmode.com

They have it as a weekly special offer. Cheers

Has anybody ordered and actually received their rubbers yet from these places?

No disrespect, but the large retailers in Germany have only been able to place their orders last week and internet shops in Lithuania have them in stock?

tt89player
07-26-2016, 06:20 PM
hi tt89player great reviews,

Now that you've played with all the Evolution range, maybe you can create a chart, rating the rubbers in speed, spin and tackiness?

I'm quite interested in the tackiness deparment since i'm struggling with the disturbing lack of tack of my FX-P (I use eacheng plastic protectors and they stick slighly to my T80 FX but they slide right off the FX-P )

Since i need a little more speed, I'm between getting the EL-P, EL-S or FX-S, but i need to know... which is stickier?

Hi Reaper,

I finally finished my Evolution review comparison. You will find Charts about the arcs and spin/speed.
I decided that I cannot rate tackiness, but in my opinion it has the following order:
EL-S=FX-S>MX-S>EL-P>=MX-P=FX-P

http://www.tt-spin.de/tibhar-evolution-belagtest/

FloKing
07-26-2016, 08:18 PM
Both are available on contra.de (I have never ordered there) with a discount for 2 pieces :o
https://www.contra.de/en/tibhar-belag-evolution-el-s.html
https://www.contra.de/en/tibhar-belag-evolution-fx-s.html (https://www.contra.de/en/tibhar-belag-evolution-el-s.html)

Tryzerlol
07-27-2016, 12:47 AM
Hi Reaper,

I finally finished my Evolution review comparison. You will find Charts about the arcs and spin/speed.
I decided that I cannot rate tackiness, but in my opinion it has the following order:
EL-S=FX-S>MX-S>EL-P>=MX-P=FX-P

http://www.tt-spin.de/tibhar-evolution-belagtest/

I'd like to thank you for the review, as someone who plays the MX-P it was exactly the kind of thing that I was looking for. I was already tempted, but now I'm definitely giving the EL-S a shot ;)
Btw, you should consider mentioning this in the german forum if you haven't done it already, I'm sure there are plenty others who would love to read your thorough impressions.

NextLevel
07-27-2016, 04:48 AM
My sheets of EL-S and FX-S have arrived. Will pick them up tomorrow and give impressions soon.

tt89player
07-27-2016, 12:28 PM
I'd like to thank you for the review, as someone who plays the MX-P it was exactly the kind of thing that I was looking for. I was already tempted, but now I'm definitely giving the EL-S a shot ;)
Btw, you should consider mentioning this in the german forum if you haven't done it already, I'm sure there are plenty others who would love to read your thorough impressions.

I mentioned it in smaller german tt forums but the biggest one is not allowing links or discussions about "competitors" like a blog

Tryzerlol
07-27-2016, 09:21 PM
I mentioned it in smaller german tt forums but the biggest one is not allowing links or discussions about "competitors" like a blog

Eh, right. Considering a private blog without sales "competition" is kinda borderline if you ask me, oh well. My point stands, it helped me out a lot and thanks for that ;)

NextLevel
07-27-2016, 09:29 PM
I mentioned it in smaller german tt forums but the biggest one is not allowing links or discussions about "competitors" like a blog


I am not sure I agree with the arc assessment of MX-S as being higher than MX-P. You have to swing so hard to get MX-S to truly arc that it is not worth the trouble. Almost like Tenergy 25.

tt89player
07-27-2016, 10:28 PM
I am not sure I agree with the arc assessment of MX-S as being higher than MX-P. You have to swing so hard to get MX-S to truly arc that it is not worth the trouble. Almost like Tenergy 25.

Hmm... I tested both, MX-P and MX-S, with many different blades and I always could create higher arcs with MX-S. But yes, the arm movement has to be faster than with MX-P.
The opinions about MX-S are sometimes totally different and I know why. Hitting the ball with strength do most of the players. This is good with rubbers that have lots of catapult like MX-P. But with MX-S the hitting power is not the key. Fast movements of your body, shoulder, arm and wrist make the MX-S work.

NextLevel
07-27-2016, 11:27 PM
Hmm... I tested both, MX-P and MX-S, with many different blades and I always could create higher arcs with MX-S. But yes, the arm movement has to be faster than with MX-P.
The opinions about MX-S are sometimes totally different and I know why. Hitting the ball with strength do most of the players. This is good with rubbers that have lots of catapult like MX-P. But with MX-S the hitting power is not the key. Fast movements of your body, shoulder, arm and wrist make the MX-S work.

Yes, I was a spin Chinese rubber player and I used Big Dipper before using MX-S. The main reason I left MX-S was that even when you spun the ball, the arc was never that high. MX-P had a higher regular arc. What MX-S did that was great was that when I looped hard, the ball still had plenty of spin, while if I did this with MX-P, I could not increase the spin. But the trajectory was always relatively low. I believe Drinkhall's review shows this as well.

Kokain
07-27-2016, 11:45 PM
I'm having doubts just as i was about to put an order for couple of sheet. I'm following closely the little that's been said about the EL-S and all the positive vibe surrounding it. I have this feel I might be better off with MX-P possibly but I can't say for sure as I only managed to play for 10min with a MX-P. How would you guys compare EL-S/MX-P it to Tenergy 64 rather than 05? tt89player any thoughts? I prefer Tenergy 64 due to the lower arc, slightly less spin, better dwell time, easy to access speed from the spring sponge, great blocking and generally the softer feel. The MX-P in my hands felt harder compared to 64 but during gameplay, counter looping with my friend it didn't seems to differ as the top sheet was very grippy. The speed to me felt same but T64 having a softer feel was easier to engage the speed (arrived at my opponent quicker), maybe even a touch spinner too, giving a nice dip near the landing arc.
My worry is EL-S will be too spinny, higher arc (backhand may suffer), sensitive to incoming spin from serves, not so springy, maybe suffering in power looping away from the table and so will smashes / flat hits etc?
What are your thoughts peeps?

p.s Is EL-S with swiss cheese sponge or does it have smaller pores like MX-P (basically are they as huge as BlueFire M2/Rasant Powergrip) And do these rubbers feel plasticky unlike Tenergy

NextLevel
07-28-2016, 07:59 AM
My worry is EL-S will be too spinny, higher arc (backhand may suffer), sensitive to incoming spin from serves, not so springy, maybe suffering in power looping away from the table and so will smashes / flat hits etc?
What are your thoughts peeps?


These were my first impression - high arc in a Tenergy 05 way, but not as fun to play if you have a Spring Sponge addiction.

iacovides
07-28-2016, 08:27 AM
These were my first impression - high arc in a Tenergy 05 way, but not as fun to play if you have a Spring Sponge addiction.

NL, what blade did you use? Do you think it's a FH or BH rubber?

AndySmith
07-28-2016, 10:01 AM
People have commented that EL-S plays very linear.

Tenergy's spring sponge is pretty goofy. If you're used to it and unwilling to adapt in the slightest then you have condemned yourself to a lifetime of bending over for Butterfly's price gouging. Lots of people are very happy to do that of course, and all power to you and your overdraft.

I'd rather have something which rivals it for spin, throw, durability. If it's almost half the price and plays more linear than that's a plus for me. So I read NextLevel's first impressions and my eyes see one thing, but my brain sees "EL-S is better than Tenergy because it's less springy". :D (tongue firmly in cheek here, obvs)

ajtatosmano2
07-28-2016, 02:38 PM
EL-S with booster will be similar to T05 maybe?

NextLevel
07-28-2016, 03:19 PM
People have commented that EL-S plays very linear.

Tenergy's spring sponge is pretty goofy. If you're used to it and unwilling to adapt in the slightest then you have condemned yourself to a lifetime of bending over for Butterfly's price gouging. Lots of people are very happy to do that of course, and all power to you and your overdraft.

I'd rather have something which rivals it for spin, throw, durability. If it's almost half the price and plays more linear than that's a plus for me. So I read NextLevel's first impressions and my eyes see one thing, but my brain sees "EL-S is better than Tenergy because it's less springy". :D (tongue firmly in cheek here, obvs)

Yes. I don't think Butterfly is price gouging but that is just me. The thing is that Tenergy 05 is clearly faster, especially in the lower gears. The spin is also easier, and it depends on whether you like or need this or not. I think if this rubber had come out a year ago, it would have been great for me. Right now, ease of strokes with this new plastic ball that rips apart shoulders is a major concern.

NextLevel
07-28-2016, 03:23 PM
EL-S with booster will be similar to T05 maybe?

Booster isn't everything but I might try it sometime. I Will do some testing and post video today. The arc is beautiful. I haven't practiced third ball with it yet.

MrSpin
07-28-2016, 03:52 PM
Thanks for the TTmode discount tip! Had to order both EL-S/fh and FX-S/bh into a Yasaka ALL blade to try them :)

Mart11
07-28-2016, 05:19 PM
This is getting fun...just got an e'mail from TTmode as I guess their other customers too that today they have to disable their special weekly offer for new Evolution and maybe all Evo rubbers. The reason was some kind of suppliers marketing policy. It made me think guys if this was not the beginning of some kind of BTY strategy, lol! :D

ajtatosmano2
07-28-2016, 08:06 PM
Booster isn't everything but I might try it sometime. I Will do some testing and post video today. The arc is beautiful. I haven't practiced third ball with it yet.
I just speculated how it would play with a SpringSponge like effect. But I'm sure that it's fast enough.

Tryzerlol
07-28-2016, 09:57 PM
This is getting fun...just got an e'mail from TTmode as I guess their other customers too that today they have to disable their special weekly offer for new Evolution and maybe all Evo rubbers. The reason was some kind of suppliers marketing policy. It made me think guys if this was not the beginning of some kind of BTY strategy, lol! :D

Can anybody else confirm this? No more -20% sales on the Evolutions? Having a Butterfly-esque marketing policy would suck donkey d*ck to be honest ...

NextLevel
07-29-2016, 05:16 AM
Tenergy users are not going to like this though it might play better with more booster. Just too slow. I can see it on my forehand though I might get injured if I go for pace. Not on my backhand as the stroke requirements are too large to justify unless I am all about consistency and placement.

laistrogian
07-29-2016, 07:42 AM
Tenergy users are not going to like this though it might play better with more booster. Just too slow. I can see it on my forehand though I might get injured if I go for pace. Not on my backhand as the stroke requirements are too large to justify unless I am all about consistency and placement.

So it's like baracuda?

Airoc
07-29-2016, 08:59 AM
So it's like baracuda?

Adventurous conclusion.

Next level has reasons to think that tenergy 05 is superior to EL-S, that is one thing.

But EL-S is way ahead of Baracuda in spin and ease of play, and I do think Baracuda is an excellent rubber. But the power of EL-S it has not.

ajtatosmano2
07-29-2016, 10:59 AM
So, it's don't have a springy catapult effect, but it's topspeed is equal or nearly equal to T05 (shot with big stroke)?

NextLevel
07-29-2016, 01:19 PM
So it's like baracuda?

Nah. The sponge is different. Also the grip of EL-S so far is massive. Vs. Tenergy 05, the control is better if the catapult of T05 throws you off. EL-S is almost like a boosted Sriver, as one guy put it. The spin is ridiculous when you loop properly - I get the same effect I get when I loop with Tenergy 05 and my spin is so much when the ball comes back that I am sometimes almost lost on what to do with the ball. But on smaller strokes or passive strokes, the behavior is very different as the Spring sponge feels and acts differently.

I think it is an excellent rubber. I just think that comparing it too much to Tenergy 05 misses the point. I will try to get some video tonight.

NextLevel
07-29-2016, 01:23 PM
So, it's don't have a springy catapult effect, but it's topspeed is equal or nearly equal to T05 (shot with big stroke)?


Speed not sure - more work to be done there. The top end slow spin is definitely comparable. In fact, controlled looping is probably the biggest strength of the rubber. IF you can sustain the top end looping speed, and I don't think it is too hard to do so with good technique, you will be extremely consistent and delivering extremely spinny balls.

NextLevel
07-29-2016, 01:24 PM
Adventurous conclusion.

Next level has reasons to think that tenergy 05 is superior to EL-S, that is one thing.

But EL-S is way ahead of Baracuda in spin and ease of play, and I do think Baracuda is an excellent rubber. But the power of EL-S it has not.

I have reasons to believe that a Tenergy 05 user will not like it because they will often need larger strokes than they are used to. IF they don't mind this, they might find something they like. But the rubber should be considered in its own right. The sponge effect is different.

Airoc
07-29-2016, 01:38 PM
I think it is an excellent rubber. I just think that comparing it too much to Tenergy 05 misses the point.

I guess that is exactly the essence.

Kokain
07-29-2016, 11:22 PM
I've ordered MX-P instead. Played more with it tonight and it feels unbelievably similar to Tenergy 64. Better pushing, chopping, slightly more control on looping shots, good grippy top sheet, i feel like I can slow down the ball unlike Tenergy where it always leaves with identical speed and this was 6 months old MX-P without boosters Once I boost it, the sponge will soften a bit 1 deg or so. Shame I had to wait all this time for the EL-S to come out when I could have been practicing with the MX-P already. Guess how i knew this rubber won't be as good as people would have wanted it to be.......
Simple, I checked the reviews on the 2016 released Samba 27/19, TSP Regalis Blue/Red Stiga Genesis-Mantra, none of these rubbers had high opinions or were considered a fresh breath of air. Plus I doubt Tibhar will want to replace their flagship MX-P after every review is comparing it to best alternative for Tenergy.
Thanks for all your feedback and especially the German forum, even if I had to read it with Google Translate, it saved me some money.

p.s I'm sure EL-S is great and it will suit certain players

jackass22
07-30-2016, 08:27 AM
Could you please compare hardness between fxp and fxs.

What is difference in throw, speed, spin, pasive block between els and fx-s and tenergy 05.*
Which is more suitable for game very near the table?( ten 05 or fxs or els)
Thanks

ajtatosmano2
07-30-2016, 10:16 AM
Could you please compare hardness between fxp and fxs.

What is difference in throw, speed, spin, pasive block between els and fx-s and tenergy 05.*
Which is more suitable for game very near the table?( ten 05 or fxs or els)
Thanks

FX-S harder than FX-P. Here you will find every information: http://www.tt-spin.de/tibhar-evolution-belagtest/
Google translate enough to understand and images and charts help a lot.
For advice you should describe your style, level and rubbers you have used. But for a really helpful advice you will have to post videos about yourself playing.

FloKing
07-30-2016, 01:59 PM
I found this review of EL-S.
http://www.tabletennisdb.com/rubber/tibhar-evolution-el-s.html

Do you agree?

Essam Zedan
07-30-2016, 03:50 PM
A very good rubber

NextLevel
07-30-2016, 05:17 PM
I found this review of EL-S.
http://www.tabletennisdb.com/rubber/tibhar-evolution-el-s.html

Do you agree?

That review is the kind of thing that makes me hate reviews without a player's style and level next to the review. Claiming that the arc of MX-S or MX-P is higher than EL-S can only be true if power looping at high speeds with deep contact.

gianlucamusco
07-31-2016, 09:17 AM
That review is the kind of thing that makes me hate reviews without a player's style and level next to the review. Claiming that the arc of MX-S or MX-P is higher than EL-S can only be true if power looping at high speeds with deep contact.

The arc of MX-P and MX-S is higher than EL-S also in slow topspin, I stuck the 3 rubbers in 3 same blades and I tried that so I can only confim. Besides if you look the backside of the packages of the rubbers also the value of catapult by factory is this:

MX-P>MX-S>EL-S

103931039410395

AndySmith
07-31-2016, 11:12 AM
Personally, I don't attach much value in what's written on the packaging. It might give a general idea, but it's too vague for any real evaluation, and I suspect much of it is pure marketing to ensure equipment fits in to a product range in ways which suit sales targets.

If you compare the catapult (which doesn't necessarily link directly to throw), you'll notice that the bar is a different size on all three packets. What does this mean, do you think?

Anyway, having tried all three rubbers myself I have to disagree in general with your evaluation on the throw on slow topspins. But this is where I must come back to NL's point - context about the player is important. The only time MX-P and MX-S has a higher throw on slow impacts for me is for extreme brushing strokes. And without that piece of information readers might be misled, so it's something I would probably mention.

I certainly find that EL-S is the easiest of the three to generate a high throw, and so I would say that it's the highest throw of them all on average, but with the caveats already mentioned.

sspark80
07-31-2016, 04:51 PM
Hi, Andy.
How would you compare the EL-S and FX-S to the Omega V Asia that you have been using?

gianlucamusco
08-01-2016, 09:33 AM
Hi Andy, you are right but I think the throw depends also which type of blade you use. I will try again all the 3 rubbers and I will ask to my friend to check the throw in my topspins slow and powerful: I will try also to make topspins with big brush and with less brush but with fast movement of my arm to see the difference. I will let you know, bye :)

AndySmith
08-01-2016, 10:09 AM
Hi, Andy.
How would you compare the EL-S and FX-S to the Omega V Asia that you have been using?

Starting with EL-S - it plays softer overall of course, and has more early catapult. It's also easier to generate spin and arc through the middle gears with EL-S - OVA requires more brush in the low/medium gears for this and is more demanding IMO. They are both quite spin sensitive, but EL-S is more jumpy due to the bigger catapult, so I'd say that EL-S is tougher to use during passive play in general (without being too much of a handful - certainly easier than T05, for example). The real headline is EL-S has an amazing quality when playing a general topspin attacking game, where it rivals T05, and looping/relooping/counterlooping/attacking backspin is super easy. OVA is more demanding in those areas, but is far more solid in the short game due to far less catapult and more linear behavior.

FX-S is obviously softer than EL-S, but seems to cross a line for me and results in too much instability for me to enjoy. Unlike many softer ESN (and Japanese) rubber, there seems to be a lot of low-speed damping going on, and then a lot of catapult, which I found hard to adapt to. I'd like a bit more time to really judge this though.

I have to admit though, as much as I can see how these rubbers have a lot of quality and performance, I don't think they're going to suit me. I've been using OVA for a full season now and I've grown to love the rock-solid stability and big brush spin it gives, so my FH wing is hard to change now. And I don't seem to like FX-S on my BH wing, so that only leaves EL-S as a BH option for me.


Hi Andy, you are right but I think the throw depends also which type of blade you use. I will try again all the 3 rubbers and I will ask to my friend to check the throw in my topspins slow and powerful: I will try also to make topspins with big brush and with less brush but with fast movement of my arm to see the difference. I will let you know, bye :)

OK, great stuff. Thanks for putting the time in, but don't bust a gut. The point is only that it's really tough to get a truly objective comparison of equipment without knowing something about the person using it.

sspark80
08-01-2016, 01:29 PM
Thanks for the detailed comparison, Andy. It's very helpful; I might try EL-S when my current rubbers wear out.

FloKing
08-01-2016, 02:17 PM
I doubt EL-S will fit my game better than MX-P but you all hightlighted so much quality that I want to give it a shot! :D
What about serves? MX-P is really great for that. Is EL-S as good? :o

crbn
08-01-2016, 04:07 PM
Could you compare hardness of EL-S with T05/T80 and FX-S with Baracuda/T05 FX, please?

Ilia Minkin
08-01-2016, 04:19 PM
Could you compare hardness of EL-S with T05/T80 and FX-S with Baracuda/T05 FX, please?

You can find the number on the packages. As posted before, EL-S is 33.5-35.0, T05/T80 is ~36, and T05FX is ~32. I don't know about Barracuda though.

BTW, my EL-S are on their way :)

AndySmith
08-01-2016, 04:32 PM
I doubt EL-S will fit my game better than MX-P but you all hightlighted so much quality that I want to give it a shot! :D
What about serves? MX-P is really great for that. Is EL-S as good? :o

EL-S lacks some of the crisp feel of MX-P, and you get a first impression of it being less powerful when you warm up with basic drives. EL-S's strength is putting big spin on the ball in comparison, and you notice it being a lot easier when looping.

I actually found EL-S to be better than MX-P for most serves - easier to keep the ball short with big spin. The only downside is with fast, flat serves where EL-S needs a bit more input from the player.

For existing MX-P users - if you want a slightly softer rubber, with easier access to spin but less direct power, EL-S is worth a go. But if you value MX-P's precision driving game more than anything else, EL-S might feel like a step backwards. I can't see Drinkhall using EL-S for example because I would imagine he would lose more than he would gain, considering his all-out approach.


Could you compare hardness of EL-S with T05/T80 and FX-S with Baracuda/T05 FX, please?

EL-S is very close to T05's overall hardness, with the topsheet being a little softer on the EL-S. Which makes it closer to T80 in some ways I suppose, but it plays closer to T05 IMO.

FX-S is a lot softer than baracuda - both sponge and topsheet. It's very close to T80-FX (same kind of arrangement as the EL-S/T80 comparison) but I find that FX-S feels different to the FX tenergy versions due to the lack of low-gear dynamics.

FloKing
08-01-2016, 05:34 PM
EL-S lacks some of the crisp feel of MX-P, and you get a first impression of it being less powerful when you warm up with basic drives. EL-S's strength is putting big spin on the ball in comparison, and you notice it being a lot easier when looping.

I actually found EL-S to be better than MX-P for most serves - easier to keep the ball short with big spin. The only downside is with fast, flat serves where EL-S needs a bit more input from the player.

For existing MX-P users - if you want a slightly softer rubber, with easier access to spin but less direct power, EL-S is worth a go. But if you value MX-P's precision driving game more than anything else, EL-S might feel like a step backwards. I can't see Drinkhall using EL-S for example because I would imagine he would lose more than he would gain, considering his all-out approach.


Thanks a lot AndySmith! :o
I have some very effective fast and spinny serves in my arsenal. It looks I'm gonna have trouble to find the length and speed with the same ease given more input is needed.
I value the direct power of MX-P. I'm not sure now whether EL-S worth a try!

crbn
08-01-2016, 05:53 PM
EL-S is very close to T05's overall hardness, with the topsheet being a little softer on the EL-S. Which makes it closer to T80 in some ways I suppose, but it plays closer to T05 IMO.

"it plays closer to T05" - What do you mean by that? EL-S is spinnier, slower, with higher throw than T80?

AndySmith
08-01-2016, 06:01 PM
"it plays closer to T05" - What do you mean by that? EL-S is spinnier, slower, with higher throw than T80?

Spinnier depends on the situation really, but yes I think it's slightly slower and higher throw than T80. However....

Good news is that I have a training session tonight and I'll be able to compare directly to T80, T05 and T64-FX (last one not so useful, but still). So I'll sit on the fence until tomorrow for a final judgement.

AndySmith
08-01-2016, 06:05 PM
Thanks a lot AndySmith! :o
I have some very effective fast and spinny serves in my arsenal. It looks I'm gonna have trouble to find the length and speed with the same ease given more input is needed.
I value the direct power of MX-P. I'm not sure now whether EL-S worth a try!

Yeah, this is the key factor for you, or any MX-P user really. I know some players at my club who specifically choose MX-P over T05 for similar reasons you describe, and I bet they wouldn't like EL-S as much. But it all depends, and there is no free lunch for anyone. You want more spin via a more flexible topsheet, you lose direct punchiness to some degree. But some would consider that a worthwhile trade-off.

ajtatosmano2
08-01-2016, 07:24 PM
I worry about the power of EL-S and nobody uses Evolution in my neighbourhood (everyone is whether Tenergy-guy or use sthing much slower). Unfortunately my next mandatory rubber change will be at winter or at late autumn, so I won't be able to test it, unless you can convince me. Someone could write a rubber with the same speed/dynamics?

MydasDiablo
08-01-2016, 07:45 PM
I am no testing expert, like Andy Smith who incidentally has it absolutely spot on in his assessment and advice, however here is my impression having played with pretty much every 45-50 degree ESN rubber over the last few years as well as a brief stint with T05:

EL-S is a fantastic rubber with grip comparable to Tenergy 05. This extra grip does also come with extra sensitivity to spin. Whilst it is the best alternative for T05 in terms of speed, spin and throw angle, I found it to be a rubber with no personality, ESN sponges under 47 degrees just feel bland and overly soft to me. Whilst EL-S may gain many fans as the highest spin and arc producing ESN rubber, I find it quite boring to play with. MX-P on the other hand never fails to put a smile on my face. I have written this review to warn MX-P and T05 users not to get EL-S if they have an addiction to that satisfying 'CRACK' and explosive power that comes from the MX-P's boosted 47 degree sponge and T05's infamous spring sponge. If you are looking for high spin, high arc and want a rubber that forgives more than T05 and MX-P then EL-S is your rubber, I myself am going straight back to MX-P as it is easier to control than T05 and still puts a big smile on my face when I engage the ball hard and get that crack reminiscent of the speed glue era. I can't see that any professionals using either T05 or MX-P would switch to EL-S. It is probably the best all round rubber I have ever played with, but it is just missing something that I can't enjoy the game without - :D

My personal opinion is that EL-S is not a T05 or MX-P replacement per-se, I think the players that stuck with Barracuda, despite all the new rubber releases, should give EL-S a try and I am certain they will love it as the sponge is a bit harder, far more consistent and more gears.

FloKing
08-01-2016, 08:39 PM
Thanks a lot for all reviews and advice about these new rubbers! It helps a lot.



My personal opinion is that EL-S is not a T05 or MX-P replacement per-se, I think the players that stuck with Barracuda, despite all the new rubber releases, should give EL-S a try and I am certain they will love it.


Then another reason I will probably not like EL-S: I really don't like Barracuda

crbn
08-03-2016, 11:45 AM
Spinnier depends on the situation really, but yes I think it's slightly slower and higher throw than T80. However....

Good news is that I have a training session tonight and I'll be able to compare directly to T80, T05 and T64-FX (last one not so useful, but still). So I'll sit on the fence until tomorrow for a final judgement.

I'm looking forward to your comparision, as it seems that EL-S is a little bit better than T80.

Airoc
08-03-2016, 01:58 PM
Thanks a lot for all reviews and advice about these new rubbers! It helps a lot.


If you are happy with your MX-P there is no reason to re-consider anyway.

Since I had been dreaming of an MX-P just a little softer, EL-S is just the thing for me - although it is more than just a "softer MX-P".

AndySmith
08-05-2016, 11:10 AM
Used EL-S and FX-S for a full training session and then a match later in the week.

First up - I mentioned earlier that I didn't like FX-S on my BH side at all. Turned out that it was a bad glue job. Not something that I struggle with usually, but it got me this time. Once I had re-glued it, the feeling of the ball just flopping off at low impact speeds was gone and it played much more predictably (as you would imagine). That said, it still isn't my cup of tea overall.

I haven't really changed my early opinion of EL-S much to be honest. It has amazing spin through the low and medium gears, good spin on harder hits. It's sensitive to incoming spin in passive play, but not that bouncy (excellent for serving). Looping against backspin is incredible - probably the best ESN rubber I've ever used in this aspect of play. Having used it back-to-back with T05 now I'd have to say that the medium-gear throw is slightly lower overall and probably resembles T80 a little more - I felt it needed a little bit more effort when counter-looping than T05 to get the safe arc required, more noticeable from half-distance. But these are very small margins - for this loop-reloop-counterloop game, EL-S is still super close to T05. On harder shots the arc tightens up somewhat and becomes a bit flat, but for me this is a good thing and I'd give EL-S a definite edge over T05 for smashes and hard punch blocks. If I had to sum it up in terms of being a tenergy competitor, the headline would be - imagine T80, but with less low-speed bounce and a little more top-end stability. I have to wonder if boosting it would bring it ever closer to tenergy feel and behavior, but that wouldn't be my aim anyway - personally I prefer EL-S as it stands out of the packet against Tenergy.

As for FX-S - the re-glue job helped a lot with how comfortable I was when using it for sure, but it's combination of spin sensitivity and non-linear catapult is still too much for me. Many players like this kind of rubber (T05-FX is like this, only more so, and some people love that), but it's too off/on for me and requires, well, too much concentration for me to use if I'm honest. It's demanding in awareness of incoming speed and spin in a way which reminds me of T05-FX, and I would prefer the extra linearity that EL-S's harder sponge brings.

I'll write up some more structured reviews for the review centre soon.

MrSpin
08-05-2016, 02:28 PM
Played my first quick practice game today with 2,1mm EL-S on fh and 2,1mm FX-S on bh, Yasaka Sweden Classic blade. I liked them a lot! I had previously MX-P and FX-P, both 1,9mm and this combo felt quite the same, but obivously little faster due to thicker rubbers. Nothing dramatically different. The game was brief so I need to play more to be able to review these better.

Airoc
08-05-2016, 02:59 PM
I'll write up some more structured reviews for the review centre soon.

While what you´ve written so far is already better structured than what is usually found on forums ;-)

AndySmith
08-05-2016, 10:36 PM
While what you´ve written so far is already better structured than what is usually found on forums ;-)

Ha, well thanks. But I don't feel like I've done a proper job without some bold and underlined words.

Ilia Minkin
08-06-2016, 02:27 AM
Today I tried EL-S (2.1mm) for the first time. The blade is Tibhar Stratus Powerwood, and the other side is 3-months old EL-P. I reboosted EL-P with one layer of Falco not a long time ago. Honestly, so far I didn't feel much difference between those two, probably EL-S is more stable in counterlooping rallies because it is harder.

On the offtopic side, I felt a big difference between Stratus Powerwood and Xiom Fuga I used before. Fuga is faster with way less dwell time, while Powerwood is a nice loopy blade with lots and lots of dwell and is not fast at all. I guess that the hard top of Fuga makes that difference. Both blades are marked as OFF-.

slevin
08-06-2016, 08:16 PM
Booster isn't everything but I might try it sometime. I Will do some testing and post video today. The arc is beautiful. I haven't practiced third ball with it yet.

I shall try to boost EL-S in about a month, but I don't think EL-S + Booster shall make it more like T05.

T05 has hard topsheet, medium-hard sponge
EL-S has soft topsheet, medium sponge

EL-S has better spin on soft strokes. T05 has better spin on harder strokes.

From my experience, a well-boosted Baracuda (hard topsheet, medium-hard sponge - both characteristics similar to that of T05) is fantastic (more like T05 than EL-S). And dirt cheap.

BTW: EL-S is a bad match for the Hurricane Long V on BH. It is a great match for MJ-SZLC on BH.

massa
08-07-2016, 11:41 AM
I've used EL-S 2,2mm (no booster) in a comparison to Baracuda MAX (with 2 layers of Falco) both on FH on the same blade (Cornilleau Aero Carbon Off+) with the BH being FX-S 2,2mm (no booster) and FX-P 1,8mm (3 layers of Falco).
EL-S is still faster and the ball sinks more in the sponge than Baracuda.
It also felt more spinny but on brushin the ball I missed more with EL-S than Baracuda, but perhaps that's because I usually play with baracuda.
Anyway, they are not "that" different. They have good dynamics, with the same stroke you'll get similar behaviour. I also felt the EL-S more forgiven and with a little bit more dwell

Airoc
08-07-2016, 12:44 PM
I've used EL-S 2,2mm (no booster) in a comparison to Baracuda MAX (with 2 layers of Falco) ...


So EL-S seems to give you a similar experience without booster. I guess you could say that makes them pretty different after all.

massa
08-07-2016, 12:50 PM
Not that different, the same kind of rubber. One can easily replace the other.
Now I have one rubber that I like with booster and the other I don't even need to boost ;)

massa
08-07-2016, 12:51 PM
You can do your own stroke without much adaptation. That makes them similar (at leat to me)

Airoc
08-07-2016, 07:32 PM
You can do your own stroke without much adaptation. That makes them similar (at leat to me)

Yes, I got that from what you said.

I just wanted to point out that if EL-S gives you the power of a boosted Baracuda (which I really like as well), then it is obviously a mighty good rubber without booster.

Personally, I don´t like the boosting procedure much. After a while, you get the amount of booster right every time but still you have rubbers lying around and if they need a re-boost from Friday´s training to Saturday`s match you have a problem.

This is why I much prefer a rubber that gives me what I want without further effort.

crbn
08-07-2016, 08:41 PM
Joining the debate above:
Baracuda is a very good rubber, not as fast as T05/T80, but it has almost the same spin and the specific very high throw angle as T05. I think that it is more grippy than T80 and comparable if not better than T05 when serving or brush-looping, but the problem is that it is too much sensitive to incoming spin, so it is really difficult to play counterloops or loops against backspin. This is why T05/T80 are better, it's just easy to do that with them. Also, Baracuda is a bit softer than T05 and comparable with T80.

------------------------------------

I think I will go back to T05 for new season, because based on the reviews here, it seems that EL-S is more similar to Baracuda than T80/T05, which is a good thing, but unfortunately it's also sensitive to incoming spin and that thing booster doesn't change.

MrSpin
08-09-2016, 07:42 AM
I played a bit more with the EL-S and FX-S combo mentioned in my previous post. They are good rubbers, but I still can't feel anything special with them. I actually prefer to play with the new Stiga Genesis rubbers, 2,2mm M on fh and 2,0mm S on bh on a Yasaka ALL+ blade. The Genesis M rubber is obviously faster than EL-S and the spin also feels stronger. Genesis 2,0mm S on bh feels sharper and has better control than the 2,1mm FX-S imo.

Airoc
08-09-2016, 08:00 AM
I actually prefer to play with the new Stiga Genesis rubbers

I like those, too, or to be more precise I like the M version, have yet to try S.

BUT they are Chinese rubbers with a totally different feel to anything European, even if they are not like those old style Chinese rubbers with concrete sponge.

If you like the specific way they feel and if it suits your game, you will find advantages over the European rubbers. But most people might find it hard to adapt.

Kokain
08-09-2016, 12:02 PM
That's because obviously M is 47deg and S is 45deg, which means a correct combo will be MX-P then EL-S on your back, rather than EL-S and FX-S. Regardless I'm glad I had the chance to try MX-P. Bought a couple of sheets and don't regret it at all. Closest thing I got to play like Tenergy 64 and didn't had to adjust a a thing in my strokes. If anything I can chop now instead of always pushing and set few drills for people to lift backspin. The power of the forum, especially when all reviews match what has been said so far. gigi

RajaLoopah
08-09-2016, 01:29 PM
I will change my backhand rubber next week and I am having a hard time in what should I choose between the MX-P and EL-S. My backhand is more on flicking, blocking, punching, countering, and looping. Help guys :D

MydasDiablo
08-09-2016, 09:51 PM
I will change my backhand rubber next week and I am having a hard time in what should I choose between the MX-P and EL-S. My backhand is more on flicking, blocking, punching, countering, and looping. Help guys :D

For me it's simple, if you play active backhand strokes with strong force then go EL-S as less balls will go long on less than perfect contact, however if you are used to the sponge doing some of the work for you and you use more of your wrist and less your arm then MX-P makes more sense. EL-S lacks the catapult that you will be used to from T05, to me the feel of the sponge when playing with MX-P is far more similar to T05 than EL-S. EL-S does however have closer spin to T05, it is also senstive to spin like T05, that's part of why I like MX-P better - it is easier for me a mere mortal to handle when playing against heavy spin on serves and in open play. The other thing I love about MX-P is that for me it is way easier to smash with compared to T05 and for that matter EL-S, it just seems so stable on hard contact and the slightly lower throw angle than T05 and EL-S helps me keep my smashes on the table, with the other two I had to do a kind of loop-smash.

RajaLoopah
08-10-2016, 02:27 AM
For me it's simple, if you play active backhand strokes with strong force then go EL-S as less balls will go long on less than perfect contact, however if you are used to the sponge doing some of the work for you and you use more of your wrist and less your arm then MX-P makes more sense. EL-S lacks the catapult that you will be used to from T05, to me the feel of the sponge when playing with MX-P is far more similar to T05 than EL-S. EL-S does however have closer spin to T05, it is also senstive to spin like T05, that's part of why I like MX-P better - it is easier for me a mere mortal to handle when playing against heavy spin on serves and in open play. The other thing I love about MX-P is that for me it is way easier to smash with compared to T05 and for that matter EL-S, it just seems so stable on hard contact and the slightly lower throw angle than T05 and EL-S helps me keep my smashes on the table, with the other two I had to do a kind of loop-smash.

BTW I am using H3-50 in my backhand right now haha. and I like it beacause it is not sensitive to spin but lacking the extra kick to finish the point.

gmiller2233
08-12-2016, 02:57 PM
Andy I saw you reviewed the 5Q sound, I was wondering if you or some one else could compare the 5qs to the FXP in short game behavior and play?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mofluk
08-13-2016, 11:47 PM
I have got a sheet of EL-S. My first impressions were extremely positive. I am not sure how 'spiny' it is. I am tempted to say that Acuda Blue generates more spin. But I am going to continue using it for a while... I am trying to sort out a good backhand rubber for the season.I used Acuda Blue P2 all of last season.

Observations:
It has the same hardness sponge as Acuda Blue P2, the pores like similar. In fact the only difference seems to be Acuda has a blue sponge and Evolution a red one.
It shrinks - I took it off the new Freitas ALC, and put it onto my main blade (Viscaria), which has the same head size and I had found it had shrunk a lot (But then again, so did Acuda P2)

MrSpin
08-18-2016, 03:49 PM
I am going to sell my EL-S & FX-S combo. The main reason is that my opponent tells me my shots are weaker in power and spin compared to Stiga Genesis. Anybody interested in this combo, both in 2,1mm and on Yasaka Classic Sweden blade? ;)

AndySmith
08-18-2016, 04:42 PM
You know, I do wonder about the blades being used. I moved my EL-S and FX-S over to a faster (bouncier) blade this week (from a Levi Basalt to a tt-manufaktur Carara Deep) and it both felt much better. The lack of immediate catapult was mitigated by the blade's bounciness and looping became much more penetrating while remaining highly easy. I'm giving a lot of thought to getting hold of something with a spruce medial (Eternity, but I wish I still had a Hypertouch).

Jabugo
08-18-2016, 06:53 PM
You know, I do wonder about the blades being used. I moved my EL-S and FX-S over to a faster (bouncier) blade this week (from a Levi Basalt to a tt-manufaktur Carara Deep) and it both felt much better. The lack of immediate catapult was mitigated by the blade's bounciness and looping became much more penetrating while remaining highly easy. I'm giving a lot of thought to getting hold of something with a spruce medial (Eternity, but I wish I still had a Hypertouch).

I'm not very good at conveying my playing experience with words, but I'll try:
My style of play is all around/attack loop born from Hurricane 3 use. My backhand is more drive/block.
I use the Hypertouch, and recently had Xiom OVA on one side with EL-S on the other. Before that,
I have used H3/T80 and loved that combo for my style.
I then transitioned to OVA/T80. My forehand had similar control/feel but better power. OVA on the backhand felt different but as good as T80,
so OVA works really well for both looping and driving. Then I replaced T80 with EL-S, and so with OVA and EL-S back to back:

OVA has higher throw than EL-S
EL-S has more power than OVA. As a result, OVA has better feel and dwell, while EL-S repels the ball more quickly. OVA feels more like it catches the ball.
I think OVA has a harder sponge, but strangely, it is easier to generate spin with the short game. Perhaps it's the longer dwell that gives me better feel and control. OVA has a softer topsheet?

Mofluk
08-18-2016, 09:08 PM
In a bit of a U-Turn. I am going to go back to MX-P, and I am going to try it on both sides.
I don't think you can beat it!
But in fairness, the entire Evolution range is very good. Rubber for everyone.

LM

Airoc
08-18-2016, 09:25 PM
I don't think you can beat it!

True in many aspects, yet it is a little too hard for some people. You can of course balance that with the blade but not many people are willing to change their blade because of a rubber. FX-P is a little too soft for others. EL-P is a different concept.

So while it is not correct to call the EL-S just a softer MX-P, if you need a rough description and an alternative, you´ll probably find it right there.



But in fairness, the entire Evolution range is very good. Rubber for everyone.

Yes, that is the point. If you don´t prefer ultra-soft (below 37.5) or ultra-hard (50 and above) or maybe Chinese rubbers/pips/sandpaper you will find an Evolution for your game.

MDP
08-19-2016, 09:20 AM
Im looking for a xiom vega pro but a bit less fast or bouncy, for my backhand. Would any of the evolution rubbers be any good?

Sent from my ONE E1003 using Tapatalk

Airoc
08-19-2016, 11:36 AM
Im looking for a xiom vega pro but a bit less fast or bouncy, for my backhand. Would any of the evolution rubbers be any good?

Less bouncy than Vega Pro, that would probably be MX-S then.

qvoliszz
08-23-2016, 08:34 AM
From my experience, a well-boosted Baracuda (hard topsheet, medium-hard sponge - both characteristics similar to that of T05) is fantastic (more like T05 than EL-S). And dirt cheap.



I would say that is true, but a boosted Baracuda and Baracuda Big Slam gets heavy. The main drawback still that even boosted those rubbers are not that aggressive and does not produce those unpleasant fast and curvy balls that T05 or modern ESN rubbers can produce.

I loved to play with Baracuda, but my opponent said, that my strokes were easy to handle, with M2 or MX-P I could hit or loop a point.

I love Baracuda and I recommend it from hobby level, but it requires a good technique and strong arm to be a versatile equipment.

Airoc
08-23-2016, 10:15 AM
I would say that is true, but a boosted Baracuda and Baracuda Big Slam gets heavy.

I would also assume a boosted Big Slam gets really mushy?

Jabugo
08-24-2016, 02:48 AM
In a bit of a U-Turn. I am going to go back to MX-P, and I am going to try it on both sides.
I don't think you can beat it!
But in fairness, the entire Evolution range is very good. Rubber for everyone.

LM

Your comment made me curious to try MX-P, and my conclusion is that Tibhar has one very special rubber with this one.
Like cooking different ingredients of different qualities and quantities, when you have everything right, it all comes together
to make a really classic dish. Tweak one or two things and suddenly, it's just not the same and not as good (perhaps the other Evolution variants).
Of course what's good for one may not be good for another, so again this is from my experience and my style.

This is just my experience of playing around with MX-P for 4 two hour sessions, so my findings do not apply to long term play quality.
It is bouncier than EL-S with the same type of quick ball release top sheet. I can tell immediately that it is from the same family from
the look and feel of the top sheet. With a light stroke, the throw is medium like EL-S, but with a semi to full looping stroke, MX-P has
a higher throw, and the speed is devastating compared to EL-S, OVA, or H3 National. Control and Spin is truly exceptional which I found
surprising with this much speed. It has really good feel and a "cupping" effect when looping much like H3 National. Tenergy 80 in
comparison feels more muffled and less crisp. However, Tenergy 80 is a bit slower, has higher throw, and playing with it back to back with MX-P,
I feel like MX-P is an exciting high wire act and T80 is a high wire act closer to the ground with a safety net. T80 inspires more confidence.

But the loops I produced with MX-P left me somewhat astonished. There's more risk in using it, but the attack level is so much higher,
and the game is that much more exciting.

qvoliszz
08-24-2016, 07:20 AM
I would also assume a boosted Big Slam gets really mushy?

For me it is on the edge, can not decide, maybe on hard hits it will bottom out.

Mofluk
08-28-2016, 02:05 PM
You're right.. It's a beast of a rubber to handle but when you do, it's immense! MX-P Ftw!

MrSpin
09-03-2016, 04:04 PM
I have changed my mind about these rubbers. The reason is that I tried these on a Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon blade compared to the all-around blade I tried the before. HUGE DIFFERENCE! Now these rubbers started to shine and work really well, because of the added speed of the blade. I still think I might prefer a harder fh rubber and maybe switch the EL-S to MX-P or Stiga Genesis M.

AndySmith
09-08-2016, 10:05 AM
I have changed my mind about these rubbers. The reason is that I tried these on a Yasaka Ma Lin Carbon blade compared to the all-around blade I tried the before. HUGE DIFFERENCE! Now these rubbers started to shine and work really well, because of the added speed of the blade. I still think I might prefer a harder fh rubber and maybe switch the EL-S to MX-P or Stiga Genesis M.

Blade selection seems more important than usual with these rubbers. I've been moving them around from blade to blade over the past few weeks and I've been surprised at how they've performed. I seem to prefer them on bouncier blades, which counteracts some of the lack of low-speed catapult. I liked them less on the Crest AR+, and my Levi Basalt.

I had them on an Adidas Challenge Speed for a bit, but the top-end speed was just too fast and blocking/countering incoming heavy stuff was very tricky. But the low-gear behavior was much better for me. This week I tried them on a Gewo Zoom Balance, and I was very impressed despite the overall speed being a bit low. I'm hoping to try a hardwood/spruce blade soon (YEO, Eternity, etc) - on paper this should work really well.

RajaLoopah
09-08-2016, 04:13 PM
Blade selection seems more important than usual with these rubbers. I've been moving them around from blade to blade over the past few weeks and I've been surprised at how they've performed. I seem to prefer them on bouncier blades, which counteracts some of the lack of low-speed catapult. I liked them less on the Crest AR+, and my Levi Basalt.

I had them on an Adidas Challenge Speed for a bit, but the top-end speed was just too fast and blocking/countering incoming heavy stuff was very tricky. But the low-gear behavior was much better for me. This week I tried them on a Gewo Zoom Balance, and I was very impressed despite the overall speed being a bit low. I'm hoping to try a hardwood/spruce blade soon (YEO, Eternity, etc) - on paper this should work really well.

Yep, blade selection cause after a week of usage I removed mine and swapped with my coach's MXP for my ELS. It worked better in my coach's Photino blade and I am happy with MXP haha

AndySmith
09-08-2016, 05:11 PM
Yep, blade selection cause after a week of usage I removed mine and swapped with my coach's MXP for my ELS. It worked better in my coach's Photino blade and I am happy with MXP haha

LOLz - blade selection in reverse in your case.

RajaLoopah
09-08-2016, 05:39 PM
LOLz - blade selection in reverse in your case.

The ELS sucks in my Ebenholz, I noticed it over time that the spin is there but the speed is meh haha

AndySmith
09-09-2016, 09:42 AM
The ELS sucks in my Ebenholz, I noticed it over time that the spin is there but the speed is meh haha

It sounds like you have some special speed needs here my friend.

One of our better club players has recently switched to MX-P Max on both sides of a Primorac Carbon. He loves it, but I'm just waiting for him to say that he wants something faster.

Airoc
09-09-2016, 11:27 AM
I'm just waiting for him to say that he wants something faster.

Even that could be done ;)

But if there´s any use?

Player87
10-26-2016, 03:10 PM
So what kind of blades are more suited for EL-S rubber?
Will Donic Waldner Offensive 2016 is good for ELS. It is 5 ply wood. This is thin and lightweight blade (5.5 mm, ~82 g) comes with limba-spruce-ayous-spruce-limba

massa
10-26-2016, 03:46 PM
Fast, light and hard. ELS works great on Cornilleau Aero Off+

UpSideDownCarl
10-26-2016, 03:49 PM
So what kind of blades are more suited for EL-S rubber?
Will Donic Waldner Offensive 2016 is good for ELS. It is 5 ply wood. This is thin and lightweight blade (5.5 mm, ~82 g) comes with limba-spruce-ayous-spruce-limba

I know people think this. But that is not really how blades and rubbers work. A good rubber will work well with any blade. A good blade will work well with any rubber.

A certain rubber may feel a little different on a different blade. But that is because the blade feels different. The rubber will not change. If the blade is harder you may have more trouble keeping the ball on the rubber longer to get more dwell time and spin. But that blade will do that with any rubber. A softer blade may make it easier to hold the ball on the rubber longer making it easier to spin the ball. And again, that is the blade, not the rubber. And with good technique, you can still hold the ball on the rubber longer even with a blade with a harder surface. It just takes more technique. Or, really, slightly different technique.

So the short answer to your question is:

EL-S will work with your blade!


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

NextLevel
10-26-2016, 04:04 PM
I know people think this. But that is not really how blades and rubbers work. A good rubber will work well with any blade. A good blade will work well with any rubber.

A certain rubber may feel a little different on a different blade. But that is because the blade feels different. The rubber will not change. If the blade is harder you may have more trouble keeping the ball on the rubber longer to get more dwell time and spin. But that blade will do that with any rubber. A softer blade may make it easier to hold the ball on the rubber longer making it easier to spin the ball. And again, that is the blade, not the rubber. And with good technique, you can still hold the ball on the rubber longer even with a blade with a harder surface. It just takes more technique. Or, really, slightly different technique.

So the short answer to your question is:

EL-S will work with your blade!


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Yes. The question is what kind of overall setup speed he is trying to achieve and without mentioning this, he is asking for what "works". I have never understood this - almost as if people think we can imagine how they want to play and what they can do without ever having seen them play.

ajtatosmano2
10-26-2016, 05:31 PM
A bad glue job can seriously reduce the speed. I noticed that my slightly boosted H3 was so slow even on kill loops. I reglued it and became much more lively. I suppose that EL-S is also factory tuned, so it might work.

UpSideDownCarl
10-26-2016, 05:45 PM
Yes. The question is what kind of overall setup speed he is trying to achieve and without mentioning this, he is asking for what "works". I have never understood this - almost as if people think we can imagine how they want to play and what they can do without ever having seen them play.

I actually think this is addressing bigger and more realistic perspective.

The question seemed to be whether a specific rubber would work with a specific blade and which blades that rubber would work with. The poster didn't even get to the issue of what would be right for him.

But that idea that certain blades only work with certain rubbers or vice versa seems like a belief that is prevalent, frequently proposed and seems to have no basis.

Player87
10-26-2016, 07:19 PM
I know people think this. But that is not really how blades and rubbers work. A good rubber will work well with any blade. A good blade will work well with any rubber.

A certain rubber may feel a little different on a different blade. But that is because the blade feels different. The rubber will not change. If the blade is harder you may have more trouble keeping the ball on the rubber longer to get more dwell time and spin. But that blade will do that with any rubber. A softer blade may make it easier to hold the ball on the rubber longer making it easier to spin the ball. And again, that is the blade, not the rubber. And with good technique, you can still hold the ball on the rubber longer even with a blade with a harder surface. It just takes more technique. Or, really, slightly different technique.

So the short answer to your question is:

EL-S will work with your blade!


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

There is what is called physics. Like gravity you can't go from it. The same here. There are factors like hardness of Blade, top ply of the blade, sponge, elasticity and so on. For instance you can't match Hurricane 3 with soft hinoki blade (there some exceptions but in general rule is like that). Or put super soft rubber on Hard blade TB ALC.

There were some comments. People were disapponted with EL-S on one blade and changed their opinion once tried on another blade? The question why?

If answer is not coming to your mind then please nevermind... :D

UpSideDownCarl
10-26-2016, 07:41 PM
There is what is called physics. Like gravity you can't go from it. The same here. There are factors like hardness of Blade, top ply of the blade, sponge, elasticity and so on. For instance you can't match Hurricane 3 with soft hinoki blade (there some exceptions but in general rule is like that). Or put super soft rubber on Hard blade TB ALC.

There were some comments. People were disapponted with EL-S on one blade and changed their opinion once tried on another blade? The question why?

If answer is not coming to your mind then please nevermind... :D

Well, if you want to think how you want to think, I am not going to bother changing your mind. But it does not really work how you think. What you feel and your preferences are based on what you are used to. If someone else is used to something different, they will feel something totally different from the same setup.

And BTW, I've used H3 on a Hinoki blade and it seemed to work just fine.

My current blade is a pretty soft blade and I've used some very hard rubbers on it and they all worked fine. And I've used soft rubbers on a few hard blades and that worked as well.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

d3ss3n
10-26-2016, 08:35 PM
I will be using an EL-S on a Yasaka Extra 3D and i mm just waiting for my tennis elbow to heal

Suga D
10-26-2016, 08:42 PM
...For instance you can't match Hurricane 3 with soft hinoki blade (there some exceptions but in general rule is like that).


Sorry, but i can't agree on this.




And BTW, I've used H3 on a Hinoki blade and it seemed to work just fine.

Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Thanks, Carl.
[Emoji2]


Dear TTD community. I actually didn't want to be a show off, but this I must share with you.
Today a dream came true.

Finally I found this lovely Nittaku Killton
(i've heard it's pronounced: Shellton) 3ply hinoki all wood blade and it just plays like a dream. So much dwell time, almost like the ball gets magnetized by the blade... it almost feels like catching the ball and throwing it back after a while.
:D
I used to have the same blade 30 years ago.

Unfortunately today I just could play 2 hours with it. Just can't wait to continue playing.
[Emoji12]

I'm pretty tempted to make this my main instrument.

10979
10980
10981

It's got a couple of small Dings but they don't bother me.
Those are just a few battle scars.
[Emoji3]

10982
10983
10984
10985

I've never thought anything could come close to my NSO or my americanhinoki but now they have a new rival.
[Emoji2]
It's a looper's paradise. A spinner's heaven.

10986

I hope I'll be able to catch some sleep 2nite...
[Emoji2]
:cool:

UpSideDownCarl
10-26-2016, 10:11 PM
Photos

I love those photos of that beautiful old blade.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

NextLevel
10-27-2016, 03:24 AM
There is what is called physics. Like gravity you can't go from it. The same here. There are factors like hardness of Blade, top ply of the blade, sponge, elasticity and so on. For instance you can't match Hurricane 3 with soft hinoki blade (there some exceptions but in general rule is like that). Or put super soft rubber on Hard blade TB ALC.

There were some comments. People were disapponted with EL-S on one blade and changed their opinion once tried on another blade? The question why?

If answer is not coming to your mind then please nevermind... :D

Whenever I give my blade to my clubmates who are using Timo Boll Spirit or Timo Boll ZLC etc., they say my blade has too much feeling and is too slow. We are all using Tenergy (I switched from 05 to 80 recently), so who is right? I find their blades too fast. If they had my blade and changed to their blades and I had their blades and changed to mine, does Tenergy now go with TBS and not with Yasaka Extra?

Player87
10-27-2016, 09:07 AM
This is endless discussion. Useless to continue further. You may use whatever you want even pips on viscaria like the someone said "they all worked fine".

Every rubber plays on every blade - yes but HOW? Don't you think about it? Will it play like full potential? As per your comments obvious answer is YES just need proper technique. Good luck then in making weird techniques with weird setups. - that actually sound like that.

NextLevel
10-27-2016, 09:25 AM
This is endless discussion. Useless to continue further. You may use whatever you want even pips on viscaria like the someone said "they all worked fine".

Every rubber plays on every blade - yes but HOW? Don't you think about it? Will it play like full potential? As per your comments obvious answer is YES just need proper technique. Good luck then in making weird techniques with weird setups. - that actually sound like that.

OK, now, maybe you don't understand what we are trying to say. The first question is what are you trying to do. IF we know what you are trying to do, then you can answer whether how a rubber plays on a blade might be what you like or not. But if you don't know or share what you are trying to do, the correct answer is that any good rubber will play with any good blade. Only you can tell whether it will suit you based on what your preferences are.


If I say, I want setup with high catapult from rubber from mid distance, then I may say that unless I have fast blade or big swings, EL-S is too slow. But if I like heavy spin and more focus on control and linear response, I might like EL-S a lot because I find for how I think, Tenergy is too bouncy. But in the end, these are all small things and have more to do with feeling and there are other things that are important like short game and block and push. They won't add more than 100 pts at most to my rating because both EL-S and Tenergy 80 are offensive rubbers with high spin - they are more similar than they are different. But in the end, I have to know how I want to play. IF you know how you want to play, forum is the last place one will ask serious questions about rubber for playing like "full potential".

darnner123
10-27-2016, 01:48 PM
uh quick question. i dont really get it when people say catapult or dwell time or stiffness. sometimes people say ohh the top ply is stiff but it has tons of dwell time which djkskabska confuses me so much. it would be great if somone could explain this to me please.
oh and gears too

Player87
10-27-2016, 05:41 PM
OK, now, maybe you don't understand what we are trying to say. The first question is what are you trying to do. IF we know what you are trying to do, then you can answer whether how a rubber plays on a blade might be what you like or not. But if you don't know or share what you are trying to do, the correct answer is that any good rubber will play with any good blade. Only you can tell whether it will suit you based on what your preferences are.


If I say, I want setup with high catapult from rubber from mid distance, then I may say that unless I have fast blade or big swings, EL-S is too slow. But if I like heavy spin and more focus on control and linear response, I might like EL-S a lot because I find for how I think, Tenergy is too bouncy. But in the end, these are all small things and have more to do with feeling and there are other things that are important like short game and block and push. They won't add more than 100 pts at most to my rating because both EL-S and Tenergy 80 are offensive rubbers with high spin - they are more similar than they are different. But in the end, I have to know how I want to play. IF you know how you want to play, forum is the last place one will ask serious questions about rubber for playing like "full potential".

Actually my question was not that deep. It was more general question. So we just misunderstood each other. Since there were several posts before saying that EL-S performance was bad on certain blades therefore I was curious what kind of blades should suit this rubber better. That is it.

Re you clarification. I am playing more offensive style with both wings loop but mostly using FH. BH is more for flicks, slow top spins while receiving serves. I used to play with Maze Off + Baracuda FH 2.0 + Maxxx P BH 2.0. I didn't like head heaviness of this setup as well as it is requires quite good technique for every stroke and it is not forgiving at all. So I decided to downgrade to all wood blade with better balance and take coach to train my FH and BH loops as well as footwork.

My biggest concern was weight balance. Can't handle head heavy setups with my wrist. I made my search and decided to give a try to Donic Waldner Offensive 2016. 5 ply blade with limba top ply. I got my blade with around 83 gr weight I glued the same rubbers. Overall setup feels a bit less head heavy (I would want a bit more lighter in terms of weight balance). In terms of playing it felt more controlable with good feel after carbon blade. I still can generate deadly FH loops with good amount of spin however from BH I feel like I need more grip and bounciness than Maxxx P. On FH just a bit more bounciness as well and notch softer and lighter. Baracuda's grip is good enough.

I still consider Nexy Lissom, Tibhar (which is also Nexy) Kim Jung Hoon and Stiga Emerald VPS. Never tried but as per reviews all have good weight balance and suits for looping more than for smashing. Emerald probably fastest and heaviest in general than 2 others. Still reading some comments to understand which one to try next and stick in the future.

That pretty much it.

NextLevel
10-27-2016, 06:02 PM
Actually my question was not that deep. It was more general question. So we just misunderstood each other. Since there were several posts before saying that EL-S performance was bad on certain blades therefore I was curious what kind of blades should suit this rubber better. That is it.

Re you clarification. I am playing more offensive style with both wings loop but mostly using FH. BH is more for flicks, slow top spins while receiving serves. I used to play with Maze Off + Baracuda FH 2.0 + Maxxx P BH 2.0. I didn't like head heaviness of this setup as well as it is requires quite good technique for every stroke and it is not forgiving at all. So I decided to downgrade to all wood blade with better balance and take coach to train my FH and BH loops as well as footwork.

My biggest concern was weight balance. Can't handle head heavy setups with my wrist. I made my search and decided to give a try to Donic Waldner Offensive 2016. 5 ply blade with limba top ply. I got my blade with around 83 gr weight I glued the same rubbers. Overall setup feels a bit less head heavy (I would want a bit more lighter in terms of weight balance). In terms of playing it felt more controlable with good feel after carbon blade. I still can generate deadly FH loops with good amount of spin however from BH I feel like I need more grip and bounciness than Maxxx P. On FH just a bit more bounciness as well and notch softer and lighter. Baracuda's grip is good enough.

I still consider Nexy Lissom, Tibhar (which is also Nexy) Kim Jung Hoon and Stiga Emerald VPS. Never tried but as per reviews all have good weight balance and suits for looping more than for smashing. Emerald probably fastest and heaviest in general than 2 others. Still reading some comments to understand which one to try next and stick in the future.

That pretty much it.

Understood. The main difference between me and you is that because of my internet experience, I don't trust the reviews of people I have never met or seen play. I have seen people who cannot loop properly write serious blade reviews. If you usually take recommendations from people who play two levels lower than you or whose technique you cannot trust, then sure, feel free to ask whether EL-S matches a blade. I know some of the people who make these statements and sometimes, you will laugh if you see them play. Other times, you have to know what they like or do not like and how they play in order to understand whether what they are saying applies to you or not.

EL-S is a bit like Baracuda. That is where I would place it.

UpSideDownCarl
10-27-2016, 06:40 PM
EL-S is a bit like Baracuda. That is where I would place it.

Okay. Good info that is now in the ballpark and helpful.

Question. I know MX-P is crazy heavy. I think MX-S was kind of heavy too. Since Player87 is looking for something lighter than Baracuda, anyone know how heavy EL-S is? Is it heavy like MX-P and MX-S or is it not so heavy?


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Player87
10-27-2016, 06:49 PM
also I am concerned about grip of the rubber. Don't think it will be heavier than baracuda. I will use 1.9-2.0 thickness to train and develop my strokes. More on stability than to kill the ball.

NextLevel
10-27-2016, 06:59 PM
I think Evolution series is generally heavy. I can't remember where to place this one but I felt it was heavier than Tenergy 05. In my experience, the grip is outstanding. Someone on another website felt it wasn't vs MX-P and I was confused by that to be honest.

Player87
10-27-2016, 07:31 PM
I think Evolution series is generally heavy. I can't remember where to place this one but I felt it was heavier than Tenergy 05. In my experience, the grip is outstanding. Someone on another website felt it wasn't vs MX-P and I was confused by that to be honest.

You may use this site for the uncut mass of rubbers
http://tabletennis-reviews.com/reference/rubber-sheet-mass-size-database/

Indeed MXP is heavy like T05.

UpSideDownCarl
10-27-2016, 07:54 PM
You may use this site for the uncut mass of rubbers
http://tabletennis-reviews.com/reference/rubber-sheet-mass-size-database/

Indeed MXP is heavy like T05.

MX-P was very noticeably heavier, when cut and on my blade, than Tenergy. The only thing I can remember feeling close to as heavy was H3.

I don't mind the weight. So, in a few days when I switch back to MX-P, I am not anticipating it being a problem. But the sheets of MX-P I had were not just heavy but VERY heavy. Could have been the particular sheets I received. But....if anyone is sensitive to the weight of rubbers, it worth knowing.


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UpSideDownCarl
10-27-2016, 07:58 PM
Just checked your link. MX-P uncut is 9 grams heavier than T05. So, yeah, I can say a lot.

EL-S is just short of 9 grams heavier than T05.

And EL-S is definitely noticeably heavier than Baracuda even though it was hard to compare because they had a 2.0 listed for Baracuda and a 2.1 for EL-S.

Looks like H8 weighs similar to MX-P and MX-S.

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massa
10-27-2016, 10:07 PM
Evolution series are all heavy, even FX-P and FX-S. I have them both

Ilia Minkin
10-28-2016, 12:56 AM
Yeah, EL-S is heavy to the point I regret going MAX thickness on both sides. Once my current rubbers wear out, I will go for 1.9 or even 1.7 for BH.

UpSideDownCarl
10-28-2016, 03:39 AM
Yeah, EL-S is heavy to the point I regret going MAX thickness on both sides. Once my current rubbers wear out, I will go for 1.9 or even 1.7 for BH.

I had that feeling with MX-P for a quick minute and then I just got used to the weight. Hopefully you get used to it too. But those Evolution sponges are really really heavy.


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Der_Echte
10-28-2016, 04:07 AM
Rambo doesn't think they are so heavy. Rambo isn't the biggest dude in the tt hall.

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NextLevel
10-28-2016, 04:23 AM
Rambo doesn't use them on both sides. When he does he will come home from Nam.

Player87
10-28-2016, 05:34 AM
I had that feeling with MX-P for a quick minute and then I just got used to the weight. Hopefully you get used to it too. But those Evolution sponges are really really heavy.


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Considering the fact that your blade in signature is very balanced itself. Can imagine how head heavy they are on some Donic Senso blades...

NextLevel
10-28-2016, 12:21 PM
Yeah, EL-S is heavy to the point I regret going MAX thickness on both sides. Once my current rubbers wear out, I will go for 1.9 or even 1.7 for BH.

Part of it is the blade - the SPW is too large in head size. That's why I don't use it today as Hexer is the only rubber that was light enough for me to even try it.

Ilia Minkin
10-28-2016, 03:21 PM
Part of it is the blade - the SPW is too large in head size.

That is also true. But I have almost adjusted: not a long time ago a series of 15-20 backhand loops used to wear out my arm pretty fast, now it doesn't happen. But I still feel that a slightly lighter racket will make my wristy backhand easier.

NextLevel
10-28-2016, 05:09 PM
That is also true. But I have almost adjusted: not a long time ago a series of 15-20 backhand loops used to wear out my arm pretty fast, now it doesn't happen. But I still feel that a slightly lighter racket will make my wristy backhand easier.

I think you are right. Like I said, this is why I gave up on the SPW. I am doing okay with the YE now, or I would have tried the GEWO Allround that AndySmith is using. I suspect it is really more like OFF-/OFF in the SPW tradition since it is as thick as the SPW but with a more standard head, which is pretty important for things like this.

UpSideDownCarl
10-28-2016, 05:12 PM
What are the actual dimensions of the SPW's head?

NextLevel
10-28-2016, 05:26 PM
What are the actual dimensions of the SPW's head?

I think 158mm by 152mm was one measurement I saw somewhere.

UpSideDownCarl
10-30-2016, 04:53 PM
I think 158mm by 152mm was one measurement I saw somewhere.

That head size is definitely going to give the blade more speed and more feeling. Head heaviness is a sacrifice for the extra speed and feeling. For some it is worth it. For some it is not.


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Der_Echte
10-30-2016, 08:23 PM
Rambo doesn't use them on both sides. When he does he will come home from Nam.

Feather light, what's so heavy ???!!! :D

Rambo can handle it.

Word has it ten years ago he was somewhere outside Nam in SE Asia stomping snakes for a living.

UpSideDownCarl
10-30-2016, 09:41 PM
Feather light, what's so heavy ???!!! :D

Rambo can handle it.

Word has it ten years ago he was somewhere outside Nam in SE Asia stomping snakes for a living.

So....does this mean you are going to put MX-P on both sides? Hahaha.

Even with MX-P his handle heavy beast mod blade will still be very handle heavy.

BTW: right now I'm debating if my next rubbers will be Tenergy or EL-S.


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Der_Echte
10-31-2016, 04:50 AM
I should have my order in from Nexy Korea soon. Will have a replacement Kim Jung Hoon. Will start using Google Karis soon after Teams. Might just take off my BH rubber and put on a fresh sheet of MX-P to make a 2x MX-P bat :)

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Tompa8888
11-01-2016, 11:13 AM
So....does this mean you are going to put MX-P on both sides? Hahaha.

Even with MX-P his handle heavy beast mod blade will still be very handle heavy.

BTW: right now I'm debating if my next rubbers will be Tenergy or EL-S.


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Would be Great to get a really really good comparison between 05 and EL-S. So i can decide myself what to go for. I'm debating if i should go back to MP-P. I play with 05 today, should continue with 05 or should i try the new El-s?? hmm

Tryzerlol
11-01-2016, 01:00 PM
My current setup comes in at like 200 grams if my scale doesn't lie to me. The blade weighs a "measly" 86g, I unfortunately didnt check the H3 before cutting or after (a. forgot and b. cba pulling off the rubber again), the EL-S came in at 113g packaged (which is average to mid-heavy, I've seen them range from 109-114, one sheet even at 115). I can only agree with the others, if weight plays an important role, you should stay away from playing the Evolution Series on both sides (or together with some other heavy rubber).

As for 05 vs EL-S, personally I'd say just go for it. To give you a tl;dr pro and con list, I prefer the EL-S for the opening loop on the forehand, and it didn't matter to me on my backhand. I preferred the EL-S in short-short over ANY T05, because honestly I was just utter shit at short-short when i had my Tenergies on the blade and I couldn't control a single ball, they either went long or too high. If you have a really good short-short game with T05, you should probably stick to it, as that is the rubber's biggest weakness imo.
Some people have reported after playing with the rubber for several weeks/months to notice a weird catapult effect kick in during later gears, meaning they can't get a single thing on the table when playing with full force as opposed to a T05, where stuff just "lands" because of the arc.

If you're coming from T05, just give it a try. In terms of pricing you're making plus and while the feeling is slightly different between the two rubbers, I would still consider the EL-S the closest thing to an alternative to the T05 (or MX-P, based on preference. MX-P is an EL-S in hardmode, quite literally.)

Ilia Minkin
11-02-2016, 04:55 PM
I think 158mm by 152mm was one measurement I saw somewhere.

Yes, but it is also pretty thick for a 5-ply, ~6.2mm.

MOG
11-03-2016, 05:30 PM
I have just switched from 05fx to FX-S on my forehand. I have been using 05fx for about 2 years.
FX-S has a slightly lower throw.
FX-S is spinnier
FX-S feels easier to smash with
Feels better on serve
I am a little concerned I might find the net too much because of lower throw but hopefully I can adjust to this.
My blade has high throw so I think it will be fine.
It feels good in practice, but matchplay is always the proper test

UpSideDownCarl
11-03-2016, 05:43 PM
I have just switched from 05fx to FX-S on my forehand. I have been using 05fx for about 2 years.
FX-S has a slightly lower throw.
FX-S is spinnier
FX-S feels easier to smash with
Feels better on serve
I am a little concerned I might find the net too much because of lower throw but hopefully I can adjust to this.
My blade has high throw so I think it will be fine.
It feels good in practice, but matchplay is always the proper test

Your stroke will adjust over a few sessions to the new throw angle. How long it will take depends. Each person is different. Cool that you feel it has more spin than 05fx. How is the speed comparison?


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MOG
11-03-2016, 06:19 PM
I think it feels quicker, although it is less springy and catapulty. So it feels like i can hit the ball harder, more linear, somehow. The blade is decently quick off and quite hard and stiff so it feels easier to drive with.

I'm not too sure about it being really sensitive to spin.

IMO - surely if something is grippy and spinny it will always be more sensitive to spin incoming anyway.

Ilia Minkin
11-04-2016, 04:53 PM
Reverted backhand to EL-P 2.0 (thanks to tabletennis11 special price): feels so much better now. The weight of the racket is acceptable again, switching between FH and BH is as fast as before. Gonna try EL-S on BH in a few months after.

MOG
11-04-2016, 05:49 PM
I had a TSPW. I thought it was a little head heavy. I sanded off approx. 2 mm on top half of blade. Mainly so rubbers from a JRE would fit. it seems to have made the blade a little lighter and more balanced IMO.
Needs a steady hand though. and a good template from a smaller blade.

Ilia Minkin
11-04-2016, 06:51 PM
Needs a steady hand though.

That is the main issue -- as we say it in Russian, my hands do not grow out of the right place :D

FloKing
11-06-2016, 05:57 AM
That's a gentle translation from Russian ;)