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karan705
02-03-2016, 02:59 PM
When a chopper chops a ball with topspin the chopper goes with the spin. When the ball comes back to the looper the looper has to go against the spin. From what I know it's harder to go against the spin. But when two loopers are in a counter looping rally (topspin to topspin) both players are playing against each other's spin. Why is this not hard? Sorry if this question doesn't make any sense.

Pricey 11
02-03-2016, 03:11 PM
Simple explanation is that when your opponent chops the ball to you and you are looking to loop the ball back what you have to take into consideration is that because the chopper has put backspin on the ball the spin is naturally taking the ball away from you and back towards the net (depending on the amount of backspin) so therefore because of this you have less dwell time to create your own spin resulting in a fair amount of balls not clearing the net.

With Counter looping the ball is always coming towards you which causes the ball to engage with the rubber and blade allowing (with the correct technique) for you to add pace and spin onto the ball.

Hope this makes sense :-)


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NextLevel
02-03-2016, 03:33 PM
When a chopper chops a ball with topspin the chopper goes with the spin. When the ball comes back to the looper the looper has to go against the spin. From what I know it's harder to go against the spin. But when two loopers are in a counter looping rally (topspin to topspin) both players are playing against each other's spin. Why is this not hard? Sorry if this question doesn't make any sense.

This is incorrect - when looping backspin, the looper has to go with the spin as well. This is why spinning up balls with backspin creates balls with extremely heavy topspin (they add to the incoming backspin to get heavier topspin). It is if the looper chooses to loop backspin by going against the spin that the looper struggles and this is pretty hard unless you are dealing with very light backspin that you can overpower.


In general, it is easier to go against the spin with inverted - inverted is designed to stop and impart spin.

In general, it is easier to continue the spin with long pips - long pips are designed to let spin pass through and to add to it with the pimples breaking.

Short pips are closer to inverted, medium pips are closer to long pips, but they both stop spin worse than inverted and let spin pass through worse than long pips.

UpSideDownCarl
02-03-2016, 04:39 PM
Yep, as NextLevel already said, when you loop backspin, your racket is going with the spin.

Hence Pnatchtwey's famous quote that all one needs to do to loop backspin is have the "tangential" (he loves that word tangential) speed of his racket going at the same speed as the speed of the incoming spin and you will loop the ball.

If you loop and the opponent chops and you keep going you can add more and more spin to the ball. This is because both players are going with the spin and adding more spin to each successive shot.

Neither looping backspin or chopping topspin are easy. But what they are is a matter of technique. When you get comfortable looping heavy chop, it becomes more fluid. I am guessing the same is the case for chopping heavy loop although I totally suck at chopping. But, I think, as NextLevel intimated, the Long Pips, make it easier to chop heavy topspin because they don't grab the ball to the same way so you can let the ball actually spin on the surface of the rubber. Yes, if the LP player makes deeper contact the pips bend and the side of the pips can grab the ball. That will make the chop heavier. So there is an art to using LP.

What a good LP chopper does that makes things even harder for a looper is they can adjust their contact to make every ball have completely different spin so that the looper really has to read the spin well and see the balls that are heavy, medium, light or dead.

If you try to loop a dead ball as though it was heavy, the ball goes long. If you try to loop a heavy ball as though it was light, the ball won't even get to the net.

But you should see what happens to a chopper if you give him what Wally Green calls "Heavy No Spin"!

Wally has this shot that looks just like a slow heavy loop. But it is a no spin ball. It is pretty fun to see a good chopper misread the spin on that shot! [emoji2]


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karan705
02-03-2016, 06:12 PM
Ok i get why the spin adds up. But when there is under spin on the ball isn't is easier to just touch the ball at the bottom then looping it. Then why do you say it easier to go against spin.

ttmonster
02-03-2016, 06:26 PM
In my experience , I have found this to be the definitive guide to understand pips and spin

http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners (http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners)

In any sport its always more difficult to play a ball predictably when its going away , thats why outswingers or legspin are more difficult to hit in cricket and that why an inside out serve with underspin on your forehand is more difficult to loop compared to a side top coming your way , unless its going to your pocket.

Now there is another aspect , which is the concept of margins, when you are pushing or chopping the ball is floating and the margins on it landing on the table is comparatively less than looping . Hence people prefer to loop chops than pushing unless the spin is so heavy that its difficult to loop. Also , if you don't estimate the spin correctly your push might pop up and the chopper will come in and smash.


Ok i get why the spin adds up. But when there is under spin on the ball isn't is easier to just touch the ball at the bottom then looping it. Then why do you say it easier to go against spin.

Tinykin
02-03-2016, 07:04 PM
I don't know who is more right, but I prefer Pricey11's simpler explanation.

karan705
02-03-2016, 07:06 PM
one last thing. Both playing against spin and play with spin have their ups and downs so there is really no such thing as which one is harder. It may depend on preference. And when you play with spin, spin adds up and when you play against you stop the spin and then storke to add your own. Am I right?

NextLevel
02-03-2016, 07:38 PM
Ok i get why the spin adds up. But when there is under spin on the ball isn't is easier to just touch the ball at the bottom then looping it. Then why do you say it easier to go against spin.

When you push the backspin ball with inverted, you are going against the spin. So yes, it is easier to go against the spin with inverted, which is why so many low level players always push backspin until they develop the ability to loop it.

To clarify:

When you push/chop the backspin ball with inverted to get backspin, you are going against the spin.
When you loop/counter the backspin ball with inverted to get topspin, you are going with the spin.

When you loop/counter the topspin ball with inverted to get topspin, you are going against the spin.
When you push/chop the topspin ball with inverted to get backspin, you are going with the spin.

Remember, the key strength of inverted is the ability to stop and impart spin. So it is easier to push backspin with backspin and loop topspin with topspin with inverted.

NextLevel
02-03-2016, 07:39 PM
In my experience , I have found this to be the definitive guide to understand pips and spin

http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners (http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners)

In any sport its always more difficult to play a ball predictably when its going away , thats why outswingers or legspin are more difficult to hit in cricket and that why an inside out serve with underspin on your forehand is more difficult to loop compared to a side top coming your way , unless its going to your pocket.

Now there is another aspect , which is the concept of margins, when you are pushing or chopping the ball is floating and the margins on it landing on the table is comparatively less than looping . Hence people prefer to loop chops than pushing unless the spin is so heavy that its difficult to loop. Also , if you don't estimate the spin correctly your push might pop up and the chopper will come in and smash.

That's a classic article and should be required reading for all players. I read it a few times and it helped me a lot when I finally understood it. It influenced how I think of spin in general in table tennis.

NextLevel
02-03-2016, 07:42 PM
one last thing. Both playing against spin and play with spin have their ups and downs so there is really no such thing as which one is harder. It may depend on preference. And when you play with spin, spin adds up and when you play against you stop the spin and then storke to add your own. Am I right?Yes and no. There is a preference element, yes, but the ease element is true for most levels of players dealing with most levels of spin.

UpSideDownCarl
02-03-2016, 09:24 PM
Yep, yep, NextLevel said it.

Chop v chop = against spin
Loop v loop = against spin
Loop v chop = with spin
Chop v loop = with spin

Now, I don't know about you guys....but I am getting really nervous that the nutty professors from the planters plant is going to come on here and call everyone idiots and want to come up with a better formula to bore us all to death.

Hey, is that Kazumi Ishikawa over there? Gotta Go!!!


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

ttmonster
02-03-2016, 10:24 PM
Thanks for reminding , I totally forgot about our resident Stephen Hawking :P


Yep, yep, NextLevel said it.

Chop v chop = against spin
Loop v loop = against spin
Loop v chop = with spin
Chop v loop = with spin

Now, I don't know about you guys....but I am getting really nervous that the nutty professors from the planters plant is going to come on here and call everyone idiots and want to come up with a better formula to bore us all to death.

Hey, is that Kazumi Ishikawa over there? Gotta Go!!!


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

TTFrenzy
02-03-2016, 10:36 PM
Its a matter of shot and situation/position of the ball & position of two players. Sometimes going against the spin is harder. There is no general rule on which is harder. If a topspin ball with really high arc, is coming fast and into your face and you have no time to pivot and play FH then you are most likely to get out of balance because of the arc. A high arc ball with the highest bounce being right in your chest or face is very difficult to handle

Ma long uses this tactic against FZD many time on BH to BH exchanges. U cant block the ball low cause its already too high and u have to stand up "unbend'
your knees and hope that your block/counterBH spin is going to land and even if it does you are out of balance.

Same thing goes for underspin, if u are far away from the table after a hard loop and the chopper chops very soft the ball will land near the net and u have no time to execute a loop again, u are forced to step in and execute a soft push and if the ball bounces high, u get a smash/topspin in your face. Like most of joo sae huyk's points when he attacks

So basically, its not only the spin to take into consideration, but the position ofthe ball and your position against the opponent

karan705
02-04-2016, 01:03 AM
So if you play with spin, spin adds on (playing against a chopper). Playing against spin, spin is stopped and then added on by stroking it (topspin to topspin rally). Hope I am finally right. ????

NextLevel
02-04-2016, 06:03 PM
Its a matter of shot and situation/position of the ball & position of two players. Sometimes going against the spin is harder. There is no general rule on which is harder. If a topspin ball with really high arc, is coming fast and into your face and you have no time to pivot and play FH then you are most likely to get out of balance because of the arc. A high arc ball with the highest bounce being right in your chest or face is very difficult to handle

Ma long uses this tactic against FZD many time on BH to BH exchanges. U cant block the ball low cause its already too high and u have to stand up "unbend'
your knees and hope that your block/counterBH spin is going to land and even if it does you are out of balance.

Same thing goes for underspin, if u are far away from the table after a hard loop and the chopper chops very soft the ball will land near the net and u have no time to execute a loop again, u are forced to step in and execute a soft push and if the ball bounces high, u get a smash/topspin in your face. Like most of joo sae huyk's points when he attacks

So basically, its not only the spin to take into consideration, but the position ofthe ball and your position against the opponent

There is a general rule on which is harder. Going against the spin is generally easier, continuing the spin is generally harder. Easier or harder doesn't mean desirable or perfect or undesirable or imperfect. Easier means requires less effort, harder means requires more effort. This assumes inverted.

NextLevel
02-04-2016, 06:06 PM
So if you play with spin, spin adds on (playing against a chopper). Playing against spin, spin is stopped and then added on by stroking it (topspin to topspin rally). Hope I am finally right. ????

This is correct. Also, if the rubber or surface is grippy and elastic (like most inverted rubbers are), going against the spin when it stops the spin retains some of the power/spin from the incoming shot so it is another avenue for building up spin, though the amount built up, all other things being equal, is less than that from going with the spin. It can be very significant though in counterlooping or topspin/kick blocking rallies and sometimes in chop/push rallies.

Der_Echte
02-04-2016, 10:10 PM
Yep, yep, NextLevel said it.

Chop v chop = against spin
Loop v loop = against spin
Loop v chop = with spin
Chop v loop = with spin

Now, I don't know about you guys....but I am getting really nervous that the nutty professors from the planters plant is going to come on here and call everyone idiots and want to come up with a better formula to bore us all to death.

Hey, is that Kazumi Ishikawa over there? Gotta Go!!!


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Eat MOAR Cashews so the cows.

TTFrenzy
02-05-2016, 01:38 AM
There is a general rule on which is harder. Going against the spin is generally easier, continuing the spin is generally harder. Easier or harder doesn't mean desirable or perfect or undesirable or imperfect. Easier means requires less effort, harder means requires more effort. This assumes inverted.

well my criteria are not only about the effort . just because a ball is considered among some "easy" does not mean that a stroke fits everyone or that there is a general rule about it. many players with good feeling find it much easier to brush loop an underspin ball which is going with the spin than countering a no spin ball or a topspin ball. Its all a matter of perspective and situation that's all im saying.

So basically just because physics and math say "going with the spin is harder" (which from a science POV is true) does not mean that it is so cause science does not take into consideration the human factor. talent and personal preference, if everybody played the same way then the game would be extremely boring and unwatchable

Pnachtwey
02-05-2016, 03:25 AM
Did some one mention physics or math?


So if you play with spin, spin adds on (playing against a chopper).

It depends, the looper still need to have a faster tangential paddle speed than the spin of the ball. If the tangential paddle is slower the ball will convert rotational energy into translational energy and spin down into the net but its spin is slowed. If you only match the rotational speed of the ball with the tangential speed of the paddle the ball will go back with exactly the same spin.



Playing against spin, spin is stopped and then added on by stroking it (topspin to topspin rally). Hope I am finally right. ????
Yes, if you are blocking top spin you can close your paddle and passively generate top spin. The incoming top spin stretches your top sheet. When the top sheet snaps back it rotates the ball in the opposite direction so now it is your top spin but it won't be as great as the incoming top spin unless you add some energy to the block to make up for the energy lost during contact.

Yes USDC, a stroke imparts a force on the ball. Normally this force does not go through the center of the ball. It is then easier to think of the force being divided up into two vectors. One is normal to the paddle and through the center of the ball and the other is tangential to the ball in the plane of the paddle. This is the force that generates spin and what causes higher "throw angle".

NextLevel
02-05-2016, 03:35 AM
well my criteria are not only about the effort . just because a ball is considered among some "easy" does not mean that a stroke fits everyone or that there is a general rule about it. many players with good feeling find it much easier to brush loop an underspin ball which is going with the spin than countering a no spin ball or a topspin ball. Its all a matter of perspective and situation that's all im saying.

So basically just because physics and math say "going with the spin is harder" (which from a science POV is true) does not mean that it is so cause science does not take into consideration the human factor. talent and personal preference, if everybody played the same way then the game would be extremely boring and unwatchable

Again, we are talking about the same ball. For the same level of spin, find anyone who considers looping a topspin ball harder than chopping a topspin ball or pushing a backspin ball harder than looping a backspin ball. That people prefer to loop backspin instead of topspin is about the spin they prefer to handle or practice more against and not about which stroke is easier vs the same incoming spin.

TTFrenzy
02-05-2016, 07:12 AM
Again, we are talking about the same ball. For the same level of spin, find anyone who considers looping a topspin ball harder than chopping a topspin ball or pushing a backspin ball harder than looping a backspin ball. That people prefer to loop backspin instead of topspin is about the spin they prefer to handle or practice more against and not about which stroke is easier vs the same incoming spin.


you are talking about a specific ball with specific spin whereas im talking about a more hollistic approach to the game. for me its not even an issue which is harder or which is not. it is about effectiveness because it all boils down to it

besides, pushing is by default much easier than looping so we cannot compare . just analyzing about a specific ball with specific spin is insignificant if you dont take all the factors into consideration, yeah with this criteria its easier, but what im saying is it doesnt mean absolutely anything. So actually the question should be "what do I have to do to be more effective in my game against or with the spin" . Just some food for thought from me towards the thread starter, cheers

NextLevel
02-05-2016, 07:55 AM
you are talking about a specific ball with specific spin whereas im talking about a more hollistic approach to the game. for me its not even an issue which is harder or which is not. it is about effectiveness because it all boils down to it

besides, pushing is by default much easier than looping so we cannot compare . just analyzing about a specific ball with specific spin is insignificant if you dont take all the factors into consideration, yeah with this criteria its easier, but what im saying is it doesnt mean absolutely anything. So actually the question should be "what do I have to do to be more effective in my game against or with the spin" . Just some food for thought from me towards the thread starter, cheers


Understood, but you are the first person to tell me that it is easier to push a heavy topspin than to loop a heavy topspin ball.

TT_Rogue
02-05-2016, 08:39 AM
easy explination. it is harder to maintain the direction of rotation. when you do counterspin you actually turn the direction or rotation what is easier because the rubber is doing that for you anyway

NextLevel
02-05-2016, 10:27 AM
easy explination. it is harder to maintain the direction of rotation. when you do counterspin you actually turn the direction or rotation what is easier because the rubber is doing that for you anyway

Obviously, but our friend TTFRenzy disagrees and says it depends on the situation and overall ball quality you are looking for. Maybe the problem is thinking about looping in general - not all topspins are loops.

TT_Rogue
02-05-2016, 03:54 PM
what i wrote is a generell fact introduced by physics and biodynamics, everything else matthers on the individuum

TTFrenzy
02-05-2016, 07:32 PM
Actually im not disagreeing. Im just setting a different question, i never said that from an effort POV anything different than what you said. You can read my post again i actually agree.

TTFrenzy
02-05-2016, 07:34 PM
Understood, but you are the first person to tell me that it is easier to push a heavy topspin than to loop a heavy topspin ball.

Nop i didnt say that. I said what I said

gmiller2233
03-08-2016, 07:19 PM
So let's complicate this a little bit more. I just started looping under spin with side spin (so coming on the out side of the ball to execute the topspin looping action) it feels like it's a bit easier for me to be consistent when executing the shot like. that but it's new for me to to try to purposefully try that with all that to all back spin loops, and what ever success that I've had could be due to chance or a few really good days. So I was wondering if any other player found looping backspin easier when doing it with side spin? My thoughts are that since I'm not hitting the Point on the ball with the greatest amount of spin that there is less spin to deal with and it may be a bit closer to my normal stroke. Is this in anyway right? And I know that will change when you start talking about back and side spin etc but for the sake of this lets just keep it as a relatively straight back spin ball.
Good conversation btw.


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NextLevel
03-08-2016, 08:20 PM
So let's complicate this a little bit more. I just started looping under spin with side spin (so coming on the out side of the ball to execute the topspin looping action) it feels like it's a bit easier for me to be consistent when executing the shot like. that but it's new for me to to try to purposefully try that with all that to all back spin loops, and what ever success that I've had could be due to chance or a few really good days. So I was wondering if any other player found looping backspin easier when doing it with side spin? My thoughts are that since I'm not hitting the Point on the ball with the greatest amount of spin that there is less spin to deal with and it may be a bit closer to my normal stroke. Is this in anyway right? And I know that will change when you start talking about back and side spin etc but for the sake of this lets just keep it as a relatively straight back spin ball.
Good conversation btw.


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It's only complicated if you want to sound complicated - it's actually pretty easy. It's how I loop almost everything.

If you don't loop heavy underspin and topspin that way, you won't get better as a player. That you are coming round the side of the ball doesn't mean that your loop has to be primarily sidespin. It could still be primarily topspin, just that your first contact is not on the major spin equator but closer to the axis. This allows you to impart your own spin more easily without the ball jumping off your racket.

izra
03-08-2016, 09:44 PM
ehhh... not really guys.

inverted rubbers tend to invert spin. actually they kill most of it and invert the rest. place a bat flat on the other side of the table and hit it with a back spin serve: the ball will jump back towards the net at first but then it will start rolling away from the net because the spin got inverted once the ball hit the rubber.

when you counter loop (top spin to top spin) you are indeed going against the spin from a viewers perspective but because you are using an inverted rubber the end result is more like you are going with the spin.

when you loop a backspin ball you have to brush the ball QUICKLY and focus a lot of the force into BRUSHING or else you won't be able to produce top spin.

the reason looping back spin balls seems to create shots with most spin is because you trade the speed for spin and put most of your effort into spinning the ball.

this is why i coach my students not to try to brush when they counter loop away from the table, just close the bat angle slightly and go horizontally through the ball, the ball will curve over the net due to the spin that was already there and got inverted when the ball hit the rubber.

the only reason most people find it easier to loop back spin balls is because those are usually slow and easier to time.

chooping top spun balls is from an outside viewer perspective also going with the spin, but to the player chopping it is actually going against the spin that gets inverted once the ball hits his inverted rubber. this is why if you don't use your wrist to achieve a very high bat speed you can only hope to produce a floater or a light back spin ball.

izra
03-09-2016, 07:25 AM
tl dr: it actually takes more effort to go "with the spin" because inverted rubbers invert the spin upon contact. so going "against the spin" is where you actually use the spin that was already on the ball.

NextLevel
03-09-2016, 01:38 PM
tl dr: it actually takes more effort to go "with the spin" because inverted rubbers invert the spin upon contact. so going "against the spin" is where you actually use the spin that was already on the ball.

So you are trying to say that when you loop backspin, you are going to have to kill the existing spin on the ball and then use your stroke speed to create topspin?

EDIT: I read what you said more carefully and I agree with you.

izra
03-09-2016, 02:10 PM
well you never actually stop the ball from spinning when looping backspin, but the spin on the ball certainly isn't helping you, it's working against you.

Archosaurus
03-09-2016, 02:16 PM
I can't offer an empiric view on this because that is what telemetry equipment is for, but my "impression" of looping backspin is that there must be great care in not letting the spin overwhelm your own.

For topspin, I feel as if I can use the topspin on the incoming ball to generate pace and my own spin easier. My counterloop is excellent for my level, for some context.

So what izra is saying is completely sound in a practical sense. At least, I think of spin that way.

NextLevel
03-09-2016, 02:51 PM
well you never actually stop the ball from spinning when looping backspin, but the spin on the ball certainly isn't helping you, it's working against you.

Only if you try to purely overpower it in my experience. Some of it can be mitigated with the intelligent use of racket angles and the result is to get a ball with a higher level of spin that one would get when looping a topspin ball, partly because of the rotational component of the stroke but partly because you are continuing the spin. I used to be pretty good at flat hitting backspin and no one ever told me that I was producing backspin balls by doing so.

Archosaurus
03-09-2016, 03:18 PM
Let us also remember that looping an inverted chopped ball and a pips chopped ball is different.

Pips don't just keep adding spin forever: otherwise Europeans would never win against choppers with their nonstop looping, but pips directly increase the amount of backspin that is on the ball when it comes to the attacker after a chop against loop, which then forces the attacker to add more topspin to prevent the chopper's attack, and you get the point.

At some point, you will hit a wall and unless you apply more force to the ball, which is practically impossible if you're looping at full power, and you must push with inverted to produce a backspin ball and to mitigate most of the spin.

So in a way, while you are physically "gaining spin" from the chopper, you are also going against it, doing your best to not slide the ball into the net. That is why after some point, it's desirable to push a chop and start over again.

Of course, the level of the chopper and attacked play a huge part in how this actually plays out. At lower levels, the attacker is more likely to make a mistake and lose outright while the chopper is more likely to not keep producing heavy spin and produce a float instead.

UpSideDownCarl
03-09-2016, 04:24 PM
Where is Pnachtwey when you need him for a discussion like this?

"When the tangential speed of the racket matches the rotational speed of the ball...."

I know someone is going to think am simply making fun of him because he and I butted heads a bit. But, even though I am having fun, I am not making fun of him. His information makes a lot of sense. Even though I think there may be more to it.

Vs a loop--with smooth rubber--you only need to have a good racket angle for the rubber you are using which is why you can block or counterloop. Well, a good angle, good contact and good touch. But your racket does not need any pace. Pace added to racket can be used to add pace and/or spin to the ball but is not needed.

However, when looping backspin, you have to have your racket going pretty close to as fast, or faster than the speed of the spin on the ball. I think there are also issues of how you get the ball to sink into the topsheet and sponge to some extent and then what the rebound of the sponge and rubber adds to that in velocity as you hold the ball on the blade face. But you have to have your racket going decently fast to loop backspin. You cannot just put your racket out at an angle for a topspin shot and expect the ball to land on the table. But that is something you can do when you push heavy backspin. And with heavy topspin if you tried that method of pushing you would certainly pop the ball up.




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BeGo
03-09-2016, 06:26 PM
Hmm, great thread. :)

I think I shall be the only one here that say following ball spin (chop the loop, loop the chop) is way easier than countering it.

For me,

Chopping looped ball always feel safer than counter pushing chopped ball; less prone to net ball.

Vise versa,

Looping chopped ball is easier than counter looping looped ball; less prone to fly ball.

Off course,

When I find opponent that can truly out spin me, I am screwed. His loop make my chop land in next table, counter looping feed Him yummy ball to smash for.



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NextLevel
03-09-2016, 07:25 PM
Let us also remember that looping an inverted chopped ball and a pips chopped ball is different.

Pips don't just keep adding spin forever: otherwise Europeans would never win against choppers with their nonstop looping, but pips directly increase the amount of backspin that is on the ball when it comes to the attacker after a chop against loop, which then forces the attacker to add more topspin to prevent the chopper's attack, and you get the point.

At some point, you will hit a wall and unless you apply more force to the ball, which is practically impossible if you're looping at full power, and you must push with inverted to produce a backspin ball and to mitigate most of the spin.

So in a way, while you are physically "gaining spin" from the chopper, you are also going against it, doing your best to not slide the ball into the net. That is why after some point, it's desirable to push a chop and start over again.

Of course, the level of the chopper and attacked play a huge part in how this actually plays out. At lower levels, the attacker is more likely to make a mistake and lose outright while the chopper is more likely to not keep producing heavy spin and produce a float instead.

This only applies if you are applying heavier and heavier amounts of topspin to the ball. You reach a backspin equilibrum of sorts if you know your loop. Sometimes, looping is not about generating heavy topspin, it's just about putting topspin on the ball. Opening your paddle makes it easier to counter the amount of backspin on the ball.

The point here is that the overpower backspin idea is not the whole story. There is a tangential speed needed to do so, but once that threshold is reached, you are continuing the spin.

Archosaurus
03-09-2016, 07:32 PM
This only applies if you are applying heavier and heavier amounts of topspin to the ball. You reach a backspin equilibrum of sorts if you know your loop. Sometimes, looping is not about generating heavy topspin, it's just about putting topspin on the ball. Opening your paddle makes it easier to counter the amount of backspin on the ball.

The point here is that the overpower backspin idea is not the whole story. There is a tangential speed needed to do so, but once that threshold is reached, you are continuing the spin.

So we agree on the concept of a chopper and looper essentially reaching a point where they could keep hitting and it'd go on forever until the rubber would wear out if nothing changes? :rolleyes:

NextLevel
03-09-2016, 07:37 PM
Vs a loop--with smooth rubber--you only need to have a good racket angle for the rubber you are using which is why you can block or counterloop. Well, a good angle, good contact and good touch. But your racket does not need any pace. Pace added to racket can be used to add pace and/or spin to the ball but is not needed.

However, when looping backspin, you have to have your racket going pretty close to as fast, or faster than the speed of the spin on the ball. I think there are also issues of how you get the ball to sink into the topsheet and sponge to some extent and then what the rebound of the sponge and rubber adds to that in velocity as you hold the ball on the blade face. But you have to have your racket going decently fast to loop backspin. You cannot just put your racket out at an angle for a topspin shot and expect the ball to land on the table. But that is something you can do when you push heavy backspin. And with heavy topspin if you tried that method of pushing you would certainly pop the ball up.




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In my experience, all of these statements distort the truth a little. I speak as someone who used to hit backspin on my backhand because I didn't know how to loop it. And I remember when I was USATT 1700+ and talking to a guy from France (2200+ USATT) who said that I hit backspin that I didn't spin it when I was doing third ball drills. And I remember when I was 1800+ and a guy who was 2400 said that I hit backspin but I looped topspin when he fed me multiball. So trust me, I have a lot of experience hitting backspin with my backhand. Of course, now I pretty much loop it except when I am playing pips players or out of position. None of this means I am right, but I want to put my next few statements into context.

And in my experience hitting backspin, once you open the racket angle and hit it upwards, you produce a topspin ball. The ball dips over the net. It doesn't float long. PEople don't block the ball into the net unless the ball is really dead. They counter it reasonably well if they try. Of course, this is different from bumping it with a slice or forward stroke. I mean a bump/hit upwards.

Right now, people power loop backspin. Power looping backspin does require racket head speed or spin avoidance. But if you basically want to loop backspin, you can continue the spin with a light roll. It's similar to a dummy loop or what I described above as a bump. The bottom line is that racket angles matter. It's not all about the surface or racket head speed.

Archosaurus
03-09-2016, 07:58 PM
I agree with what NextLevel is saying.

My go-to response for a relatively spinny, fairly low backspin ball to my long backhand is to loop it and let it dip over the net, catching it on the way and dropping short on the table, punishing anyone who doesn't have the needed in-out footwork. It's not challenging, you don't need to swing too fast and there's not a hair's margin for error. I've never seen this shot float or slam into the net, it's only ever dropped off my paddle or went into the ceiling due to a mishit.

UpSideDownCarl
03-09-2016, 09:27 PM
Oh, it's true, you can do lots of things to make a backspin ball go back dead or with some topspin without looping.

Mike Landers showed me how to backspin flip a short topspin ball. It is pretty cool. The stroke looks like a top/side stroke but you are flipping and your ball goes back with backspin.

I also have a way of making my pushes dead and and topspin. Higher rated players see it. Guys my level look at their rackets like their racket did something wrong. With good touch you can do a lot of things to any spin.

And hence the famous video where someone thought he was looping but was getting the ball back with mild rather than heavy topspin.


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Archosaurus
03-09-2016, 09:33 PM
@Subject of looping with mild spin

Don't underestimate the power of dead loops. They look like brush loops, but there's relatively little spin on them.

Bad players do this with a lot of pace and they don't know they do it, good players do this with very little pace and it's intentional. ;)

karan705
03-12-2016, 02:30 AM
This thread is not for me anymore. This is some professional stuff now. How do you loop dead??? Table tennis is some next level sport. I am happy to play this sport.

Der_Echte
03-12-2016, 04:50 AM
For an incoming dead ball with a little pace... You basically open the bat a little more. If you want to be safe, loosen the wrist a bit, and use half power, half graze, half solid contact to make a spinny ball and make it go land deep. Against a slow incoming dead ball that is long, do the same but swing up some.

later, when you get the timing and position down, you can go for a more powerful forward stroke with a stronger solid impact.

Archosaurus
03-12-2016, 10:17 AM
For an incoming dead ball with a little pace... You basically open the bat a little more. If you want to be safe, loosen the wrist a bit, and use half power, half graze, half solid contact to make a spinny ball and make it go land deep. Against a slow incoming dead ball that is long, do the same but swing up some.

later, when you get the timing and position down, you can go for a more powerful forward stroke with a stronger solid impact.
I believe he is asking how you yourself loop a ball in a way to produce low spin.

Personally, I focus on impacting the ball low on the rubber near the side closest to the floor where it will get the least spin. It's really a touch shot and I think you'd need to spend a few weeks with it to get a hang of it.

I think this shot is best played very low over the net, trying to get it to bounce awkwardly, but I'm no expert because it's quite a difficult shot to pull off exactly how you want.

Der_Echte
03-12-2016, 02:32 PM
To produce a deceptive looking DEAD loop you need to impact the ball with a looser grip at impact and allow to ball to begin to leave the bat and then produce your acceleration and follow through. Bat angle is slightly more open for close to table.

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Der_Echte
03-12-2016, 02:35 PM
Like all shots I try to hit the ball in the center of the blade. There at that impact point is most stable and consistent. Why risk the increased chance for error? Even Schlager says on serves he goes for center of bat... He says even he is not consistent enough to hit at tip of bat for more serves. He focuses on acceleration before and during impact.

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UpSideDownCarl
03-12-2016, 02:47 PM
Also, a dead loop is not really a loop. I guess that does not really matter. But a "dead loop" is a shot that looks like a loop but does not have very much spin. What defines a loop is the amount of spin: a loop is a shot that has so much topspin that you can see the Magnus effect (the arc of the ball caused by the spin) in spite of the speed.

A topspin drive is different from a loop in the kind of contact and the amount of spin. A loop drive is a drive that gives very deep contact with more tangential force (more brush angle) while contacting deep. A loop has anywhere from thin to deep contact without the ball bottoming out to the blade: this kind of contact creates a lot more spin than the other options, but not as much pace as a loop drive. A loop drive would contact all the way to the blade despite the tangential element being pronounced.

So a "dead loop" is a faux loop, a shot that is made to look like a loop without generating the spin. Der_Echte's description of how you create that makes a lot of sense to me.

Archosaurus
03-12-2016, 03:03 PM
Now when Der_Echte said it, I think his advice is more accurate. If you would brush the ball with a good contact and accelerate as normal, no matter where on the bat you contact, you would produce more spin than you want. I guess I understood that subconsciously, but not consciously, because this is not exactly a shot I do all the time. I'll try consciously working on what he said and see if I can improve the shot further.


By the way, I didn't mean contacting the ball outside the sweetspot. The slightly lower contact probably happens due to not accelerating at the same timing as a loop. Please don't contact outside the sweet spot, especially with a worn rubber. I can't think of a single benefit to it, because it won't catch better players off guard either, when your ball goes flying off in a completely wrong direction. It is entertaining to watch, though. ;)

Same thing with serves. I've attempted it, and I DID produce results with it, but you will produce better results just having a better contact more near the middle. That's how pros appear to serve, and the higher level you go I imagine that the lower tolerance for bad quality you have in serves and consistency is more important. So Schlager has a point, and I don't think I will doubt him on that.

Der_Echte
03-12-2016, 03:19 PM
There are several speeds at which to DEAD loop or loop with WAY less spin than it appears.

A pretty fast ball with little spin is much easier to cope with. The pace of the ball will get it into the topsheet and sponge. So all you do is guide an accelerate it through.

Now a very slow ball with little spin that looks heavy is real tricky. Not only are you gunna position yourself too deep for the kick that won't kick... but you gotta make your own impact to get it into topsheet and sponge. That is a tough task when out of position out of zone off time off balance.

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NextLevel
03-12-2016, 03:25 PM
In general, dummy looping is one of those things that just falls under spin variation. I would be hard pressed to find a top player who uses it more than once a match a tournament. It's much easier to just put spin on the ball in varying quantities to annoying places on the table and let the opponent deal with it.

Tinykin
03-12-2016, 06:45 PM
In general, dummy looping is one of those things that just falls under spin variation. I would be hard pressed to find a top player who uses it more than once a match a tournament. It's much easier to just put spin on the ball in varying quantities to annoying places on the table and let the opponent deal with it.

It depends on the opponent. It is used a lot against defenders.

NextLevel
03-13-2016, 06:09 AM
It depends on the opponent. It is used a lot against defenders.I play a lot of defenders and I don't dummy loop. And William Henzell does describe the no-spin loop on TTEdge and it's mostly a regular loop with a locked wrist. Hence my point that just vary the amount of spin on your loop and you end up in the same place.

I loop with less spin to opponents who are feeding off my spin with their blocks all the time. But I don't say or think I am dummy looping, I just think I am looping with less topspin.