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Archosaurus
02-18-2016, 07:16 PM
Hello.

I've noticed that just about every Chinese top player leans back when they hit backhand loops. I also do this without any formal training and I've found it to be effective in increasing pace and allowing me to make the distance larger in a whim if need be.

The lean is not throughout the whole stroke, and it is very sudden.

While I subconsciously understand why this is done, and I have some theories for it, it doesn't make perfect sense in terms of mechanics, to me.

Can someone who actually knows care to explain why this is done and why it makes a loop so much better?

EDIT: I'd also like to clarify that you're not really leaning back, but on some shots, the weight does appear to shift back.

Ilia Minkin
02-18-2016, 07:39 PM
I think that it is a kind of recoil and actually not a good thing.

Archosaurus
02-18-2016, 07:45 PM
I think that it is a kind of recoil and actually not a good thing.

Why? The movement helps to get away from the table to prepare for the next ball.

Why is it mechanically not sound or why IS it mechanically sound? Is it only done to clear distance?

I don't want speculation: ideally someone who consciously knows should come here and comment.

Shuki
02-19-2016, 07:15 AM
it's a bad thing to lean back on the backhand stroke. you lose power by doing so. However, If you mean you're slightly hunched over and then you straighten up a bit, that is more correct for a backhand loop.

Think of it the same way you'd think of doing a forehand loop. Would leaning back help you with those?

darnner123
02-19-2016, 09:09 AM
Im pretty sure everyone does that when they just started, its just a natural habit. you probably will lose speed and gain some spin but once the opponent does a fast shot its really hard to recover to return it.

Archosaurus
02-19-2016, 11:21 AM
However, If you mean you're slightly hunched over and then you straighten up a bit, that is more correct for a backhand loop.

This is what I mean.

Not actually leaning back, just straightening out quite excessively.

UpSideDownCarl
02-19-2016, 12:08 PM
Here. Have a look at the backhand technique section. You want your weight moving forward on the shot and your spin goes from rounded to straighter but still forward:

http://en.butterflymag.com/2014/03/special-zhang-jike-the-key-to-his-success/

So the weight stays in the balls of the feet.

Grandpa
02-19-2016, 12:10 PM
Not actually leaning back, just straightening out quite excessively.

Do you think you could link to a video that shows the thing you're trying to describe?

Maybe we could analyse the video and try and work out why it might be happening.

Archosaurus
02-19-2016, 12:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUTrfV-ib8E

1 minute 15 sec.

I couldn't find a very extreme example, but I did find this from Ma Long's instructional. Notice the upwards movement, very slight leaning back and pushing backwards with the legs on contact. Imagine this but exaggerated on a stronger shot in a match situation.

Shuki
02-19-2016, 04:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=au72gM3TTWc

Watch Fan zhendong's backhand warming up at around 30 seconds. He goes from hunched to slightly upwards every time. I'm assuming this is what he's talking about. But backwards is definitely bad.

UpSideDownCarl
02-19-2016, 05:07 PM
Yep, the video of Ma Long and the video of FZD both show a rounded starting position and they both stay rounded and with their weight forwards towards where the ball is going while the rise a little and their spin moves from moderately flexed (rounded) to a slight bit less rounded. But their weight and effort is transferring forward into the ball.

If they came up more and it ended up causing them to have their center of gravity move back behind their heels, that would be poor technique, would result in a week shot and make their recovery time pretty slow.

Sometimes a player will exaggerated the lifting up and the spinal extension too much, particularly on a heavy backspin ball with a motion that is more up than it should be and less forward than is optimal. But that is not really what you want. Ideally the momentum of your body goes forward with your stroke.

Both videos show good form for a backhand.

But a video of you doing what you are referring to would probably help.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Inkognito
02-19-2016, 05:16 PM
You sure it's not the recovery from a in over the table loop you are describing? Important to come out and don't get stuck in over the table when the next ball will be long and deep (almost 100%).

Shuki
02-19-2016, 05:29 PM
I have a problem where if a ball is coming more quickly to my backhand I overly straighten and actually lean backwards a bit. It's more a flinch than anything.

kriller
02-19-2016, 05:30 PM
As someone who have played a lot of football, it's basically the same principle when taking a free kick or shot on goal. Here you will also focus on not leaning backwards as you most of the time will have an uncontrollable shot, that 9/10 times won't go where you wanted it.

Archosaurus
02-19-2016, 08:56 PM
As someone who have played a lot of football, it's basically the same principle when taking a free kick or shot on goal. Here you will also focus on not leaning backwards as you most of the time will have an uncontrollable shot, that 9/10 times won't go where you wanted it.

What IS the principle for taking a free kick or shot on goal?

Perhaps I'd need to post more video of this. It doesn't really happen in warmup or instructional situations. More so what Inkognito is describing: the top players and I only do it close to table, and I do it to avoid a backhand loop into my groin when I'm not prepared.

I believe the only cause of this, the jump backwards when playing an over table loop in a match, is to get away from the table. What I don't know is how much it hurts the ball delivery: if at all.

Shuki
02-20-2016, 03:47 AM
What IS the principle for taking a free kick or shot on goal?

Perhaps I'd need to post more video of this. It doesn't really happen in warmup or instructional situations. More so what Inkognito is describing: the top players and I only do it close to table, and I do it to avoid a backhand loop into my groin when I'm not prepared.

I believe the only cause of this, the jump backwards when playing an over table loop in a match, is to get away from the table. What I don't know is how much it hurts the ball delivery: if at all.

if you're leaning back enough for you to notice it, it's not a good thing. you want to be leaning forward otherwise you lose power and control. the pro's moreso go up with it as they push up with their legs. But they always stay leaned forward on the shot.

UpSideDownCarl
02-20-2016, 05:49 AM
Perhaps I'd need to post more video of this. It doesn't really happen in warmup or instructional situations.

You would probably be better served showing video of you doing it.

SquareBall
02-20-2016, 09:58 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LxtMlFpWsc At 4:49 point.

Nikoli
02-20-2016, 10:50 AM
Hello.

I've noticed that just about every Chinese top player leans back when they hit backhand loops. I also do this without any formal training and I've found it to be effective in increasing pace and allowing me to make the distance larger in a whim if need be.

The lean is not throughout the whole stroke, and it is very sudden.

While I subconsciously understand why this is done, and I have some theories for it, it doesn't make perfect sense in terms of mechanics, to me.

Can someone who actually knows care to explain why this is done and why it makes a loop so much better?

EDIT: I'd also like to clarify that you're not really leaning back, but on some shots, the weight does appear to shift back.

It's a very interesting point you brought up here. This type of footwork only applies for on table opening loop, especially for back spin balls, where you have your right foot under the table and your left foot behind. The push back of the right foot at the moment of contact is an indication that you already put all body weight behind your swing, not just only use your arm and wrist. The key to this is to tighten your abs for the execution. Another useful purpose of this recoil is to get you back to ready position for the 3rd ball onwards.

European players normally don't do this, simply because the already have strong arms and wrists. The Chinese do this more often because after the serves, they're often 75-90cm away from the table ready for the next shot. If the return ball is long, they don't have to worry about the strokes. But if it's short, it's always easier to step forward with your right foot for back hand opening, and this push back makes sure they'll be ready for the next shot. Just my 2 cents, and it worked for me.

Archosaurus
02-20-2016, 11:35 AM
It's a very interesting point you brought up here. This type of footwork only applies for on table opening loop, especially for back spin balls, where you have your right foot under the table and your left foot behind. The push back of the right foot at the moment of contact is an indication that you already put all body weight behind your swing, not just only use your arm and wrist. The key to this is to tighten your abs for the execution. Another useful purpose of this recoil is to get you back to ready position for the 3rd ball onwards.

European players normally don't do this, simply because the already have strong arms and wrists. The Chinese do this more often because after the serves, they're often 75-90cm away from the table ready for the next shot. If the return ball is long, they don't have to worry about the strokes. But if it's short, it's always easier to step forward with your right foot for back hand opening, and this push back makes sure they'll be ready for the next shot. Just my 2 cents, and it worked for me.

It seems to be so.

I am about 64kg and slightly under 170cm, and even if I'm strong for my size, the people I play against here commonly out-power me. I am faster, though.

With this technique, I can attack strong whenever I want and not get in a pinch. Due to my small size, I've had to learn to use my body well in backhand loops and I've found it to actually assist in it, instead of taking away power. Consistency is exactly the same, too, if not more consistent due to how often I do this.

I can understand why European coaches would advise to never do this.

UpSideDownCarl
02-20-2016, 12:14 PM
It seems to be so.

I am about 64kg and slightly under 170cm, and even if I'm strong for my size, the people I play against here commonly out-power me. I am faster, though.

With this technique, I can attack strong whenever I want and not get in a pinch. Due to my small size, I've had to learn to use my body well in backhand loops and I've found it to actually assist in it, instead of taking away power. Consistency is exactly the same, too, if not more consistent due to how often I do this.

I can understand why European coaches would advise to never do this.

Without the video of you, all statements like this are, they are really just words. The example showed in SquareBall's video is an accident from pressure. Chen Meng is over the table ready for a short ball to the middle and she gets a long push to her backhand side near the end line. And what she does is actually poor technique that she got away with. And the shot it produced is not a strong shot. It is high and slow. But it was misjudged. So she got lucky there.

It is easy to misjudge your own level if you don't see video of yourself. It is easy to talk about something and think you are right. But video footage gives an accurate representation. It will show how good the technique you are talking about is or not. If you wanted to help your technique improve, video footage can really help you see things you need to work on. The rest is just talk.

No sane coach from anywhere would train a player to lean back on any shot. It happens, but that is not on purpose. I have had a coach who is from China who is 2500+ and lives in NYC tell me that was bad technique. And yes, I used to do that before my BH looping technique got stronger. It was a hard habit to break. But when my technique got better, it went away. At least for the most part. I can't remember the last time that happened.

Archosaurus
02-20-2016, 12:27 PM
Without the video of you, all statements like this are, they are really just words. The example showed in SquareBall's video is an accident from pressure. Chen Meng is over the table ready for a short ball to the middle and she gets a long push to her backhand side near the end line. And what she does is actually poor technique that she got away with. And the shot it produced is not a strong shot. It is high and slow. But it was misjudged. So she got lucky there.

It is easy to misjudge your own level if you don't see video of yourself. It is easy to talk about something and think you are right. But video footage gives an accurate representation. It will show how good the technique you are talking about is or not. If you wanted to help your technique improve, video footage can really help you see things you need to work on. The rest is just talk.

No sane coach from anywhere would train a player to lean back on any shot. It happens, but that is not on purpose. I have had a coach who is from China who is 2500+ and lives in NYC tell me that was bad technique. And yes, I used to do that before my BH looping technique got stronger. It was a hard habit to break. But when my technique got better, it went away. At least for the most part. I can't remember the last time that happened.

I'm not aiming to improve my technique on this. I am just asking why it is done.

I'd also like to add that what I mean is mostly straightening upwards, not back, while pushing back with the leg. Of course, unless you're Kreanga or something, you won't have perfect backhand loop form on every single shot, and you will get caught off guard. Even caught off guard, the attack in the video was strong enough to give her the initiative to win the point. It is a better alternative than giving an even weaker return or losing the point outright.

Perhaps what I'm asking is if keeping your back bent and not straightening out at all is the ideal in every situation. Logic would state so, but even Ma Long has to straighten his body out in forehand counterloops, and he has possibly the best forehand in the history of the sport. Surely Ma Long's form is not rubbish, if you understand what I mean.

EDIT: I was watching Kreanga a bit, because I think we can all agree that his backhand is okay :rolleyes: and because I am part Greek and biased, and I noticed that he DOES move into the ball while straightening out.

I understand that if you move away from the ball, and your torso doesn't un-coil towards your follow through direction ie: to the side and up, then you're not moving into the ball. I am talking about doing that. I am NOT talking about hip thrusting and moving your torso away from the ball.

So essentially, this movement in it's ideal condition, is just a reverse of the forehand loop torso movement.

ttmonster
02-20-2016, 02:04 PM
Just a small correction, Ma Long does not have the best forehand in the history of the sport , it was Wang Liqin in the Chinese Forehand category and Waldner in the European Forehand category.

Archosaurus
02-20-2016, 03:15 PM
I'd have to say Long's forehand is more practical and has a higher scoring potential than Liqin's, but in terms of sheer power and spin, Liqin's is perhaps better due to the fact that he played without the rubber of today and with a wooden bat, although he did have speed glue and a smaller ball.

You could start a whole thread on who had it tougher in terms of competition, Liqin in his time or Long now, but that's a story for another day. They're both great and absolutely exceptional.


I do have to agree that Waldner set the golden standard for the "classic topspin" and it's good because it can be played by people who are over 30, too.


A better conversation for this thread would be Chinese vs European backhand looping style. There has been arguments that this modern Chinese style of backhand looping is only a thing because the Chinese can't pull off the shots like the Europeans can and thus have to use the body more and whatnot, but I don't know... :rolleyes:

UpSideDownCarl
02-20-2016, 04:15 PM
Here you go: ask Liu Gouliang if what you are talking about is good technique:


http://youtu.be/SlBd0LWP6lM

You don't need to hear anything to understand what LGL is saying to ML.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
02-20-2016, 05:05 PM
I think we both agree that you need to hit into the ball and not along it, and that's what LGL is saying, but it's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about a stroke that is played as an opener, while moving backwards. There's still movement into the ball at contact, but movement away on follow through.

If this is wrong, how exactly do you move away without compromising the stroke?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0LNJEqobJQ

Fan Zhendong's opening loop @ 40sec is more akin to what I'm talking about.

ttmonster
02-20-2016, 05:20 PM
Of course, I don't want to hijack this thread, but lets agree to disagree :) .
I don't think there is a "Chinese" and "European" backhand looping style, if that was the case the Chinese would not be playing with European rubbers :P , thats not the argument, I am just kidding. I will explain what I am saying .

Close to the table there are two kinds of backhand , the modern style where the ball is taking off the bounce, spun with the rubber and wrist , check Zhang Jike , even Dima/Samsonov when they are close to the table and all the girls .

The older style is the Jorg Rosskopf style where the form is around the elbow , the elbow is farther away from the body and its a bigger swing , the intention is that the ball will not come back :P , more like a loop kill. This was required when the rubber/blade technology was not as good as it is now.

Then there is the away from the table backhand , here I don't think there are different styles. The difference you notice in players is because for players who use the modern backhand close to the table more often , this is becomes an extension of that stroke, and , the ball is taken on the top of the bounce and infront of the body like Fan Zhendong does compared to Samsonov who takes a more natural swing at it.

Now , Kreanga is a special player , his backhand is his forehand and its so natural that he does not care about which technique he is using, he plays a different shot every time, varying spin, speed and placement on his wish. Coaches I have had the good fortune to get coaching from always use the Kreanga technique as an exception to every rule in the book and explicitly tell the students to not learn from it.


Coming back to your observation, its just a normal follow through becasue of the tension release in the abdomen muscles.
It happens at times , but I would not advise anything that moves the head in a vertical plane. The golden rule of table tennis being the eyes would should remain at the same level, its more difficult to bend down to ready position once you have straightened your spine during a rally.

UpSideDownCarl
02-20-2016, 05:46 PM
I think we both agree that you need to hit into the ball and not along it, and that's what LGL is saying, but it's not what I'm talking about. I am qobJQ[/video]

Clearly I gave you too much credit. There was a longer version of this where it was obvious that LGL was YELLING at ML, yes, reaming him out, and telling him "rotate, STOP COMING UP AND ROTATE!"


Of course, I don't want to hijack this thread, but lets agree to disagree :)

LOL: how can you be the one hijacking the thread when the OP brought up the subject and hijacked his own thread. Pure LULZ.

BTW: good post ttmonster!

I'll add to it. China sent Kong Linghui to Sweden to learn the "European" shakehand style including BH. How is it different? Wang Liqin had won 3 WTTC Singles titles by the time he was ML's age and he was playing with the 40mm celluloid ball. What smaller ball. ML has been playing with the 40+ for the same amount of time as everyone. But most of his career was played with the same size ball that Wang Liqin played most of his career with. Did I miss something. And if you think the boost the CNT is using is much different than the speed glue WLQ used, not so much.

Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Tinykin
02-20-2016, 06:38 PM
The lean back shot on the BH usuall occurs with players who are trying to heavily topspin a ball out of their body while thir feet position is roughly flat across. Nothing wrong with the technique.
That is, the incoming ball is very deep backspin or is topspin that has dropped low. The player is trying to really hack the ball for maximum spin. The technique is perfect in this situation.
Posters here must stop getting into the mantra that such and such is technique is bad because some WR top5 CNT player does it another way.

Tinykin
02-20-2016, 06:43 PM
Now that I think about it, the same thing occurs on the FH especially against a player who has pushed fast and deep into the body.

Archosaurus
02-20-2016, 07:21 PM
Tinykin's point is good: the technique is only really performed against relatively heavy, slow spins, usually as an opener.

We've already established that when playing a power shot, you want to rotate. When playing a spin shot, don't you want to brush? I do not understand where the heresy comes from.

NextLevel
02-20-2016, 08:46 PM
Part of the problem is that we are overthinking the small details. You can fault everyone if you look at the small details, even Ma Long. What usually happens is that technical improvement is at the end of an experimental process with basic fundamentals at the start and compromises at the finish to integrate into a whole. Making sense of it from a technical standpoint can sometimes be a dead end. But understanding how it evolved always answers the question. Unfortunately, none of us are there when it evolves.

Archosaurus
02-20-2016, 09:01 PM
Part of the problem is that we are overthinking the small details. You can fault everyone if you look at the small details, even Ma Long. What usually happens is that technical improvement is at the end of an experimental process with basic fundamentals at the start and compromises at the finish to integrate into a whole. Making sense of it from a technical standpoint can sometimes be a dead end. But understanding how it evolved always answers the question. Unfortunately, none of us are there when it evolves.

I'm not entirely sure if I understood you correctly, but is your point that we must look at the "big picture" of a technique?

Ie: "why is this done", not "what does this do"?

NextLevel
02-20-2016, 09:23 PM
I'm not entirely sure if I understood you correctly, but is your point that we must look at the "big picture" of a technique?

Ie: "why is this done", not "what does this do"?

Yes, from a historical standpoint, not always from a functional or technical standpoint. Some things about technique are quirks. Some things are unique gifts. Some things are just pure accidents. In the end, just focus on the essentials. Let a high level coach fix your accidents.

ttmonster
02-20-2016, 10:58 PM
BTW: good post ttmonster!

Thanks Carl !

ttmonster
02-20-2016, 11:00 PM
A big thumbs up !

Yes, from a historical standpoint, not always from a functional or technical standpoint. Some things about technique are quirks. Some things are unique gifts. Some things are just pure accidents. In the end, just focus on the essentials. Let a high level coach fix your accidents.

ttmonster
02-20-2016, 11:08 PM
With due respect, as I re-read this thread it seems that you have already made up your mind but you are still asking for opinion.

Let me re-iterate , the slight unbending of the spine is a function of abdomen muscle contraction and the reset hop, but there are no situations where coaches advise you to fall back while hitting any form of backhand or forehand , its not a technique , period . You can check with any coach , at any level for any shot , even for blocking there is a supposed to be slight follow through forward, the same applies to push, chop , loop, powerloop, counterloop and flip on either side.

What you see in the videos are quirks or last minute adjustments where the ball is deeper than expected.


Tinykin's point is good: the technique is only really performed against relatively heavy, slow spins, usually as an opener.

We've already established that when playing a power shot, you want to rotate. When playing a spin shot, don't you want to brush? I do not understand where the heresy comes from.

Shuki
02-21-2016, 03:47 AM
I don't think there is a "Chinese" and "European" backhand looping style.


The european bh loop ends with an extended follow through while the chinese bh loop ends more forward instead of to your right. But yes, there are european players that end forward instead of to the right, while there are also some chinese that use a big swing.

But this is what they're talking about when they reference the two.

Now to OP, "Fan Zhendong's opening loop @ 40sec is more akin to what I'm talking about."

At this point he doesn't lean back at all, he makes good contact and then after the contact he jumps backwards and still stays leaned forward. If you're saying you don't lean back at all now, then fantastic, you've improved from where you started in this thread and I'm happy for you :)





If you're going to not post a video of yourself, and also discredit information given to you and still ask for opinions until you get the response you want, why make the thread in the first place?

If this is what you want, yes, your backhand is superior to ours and is that of a pro. You have a naturally talented backhand that we could only dream of having. And here I was fighting that natural lean back that I had. If only I knew that it was what was actually correct, then I wouldn't have been fighting it.

ttmonster
02-21-2016, 03:53 AM
Shuki, that is kind of what I described in the modern and the classical backhand looping style, Jorg Rosskopf vs Zhang Jike . I haven't seen the ZJK backhand in the men's sport till the advent of modern ESN / Tenergy rubbers , have you ?

The european bh loop ends with an extended follow through while the chinese bh loop ends more forward instead of to your right. But yes, there are european players that end forward instead of to the right, while there are also some chinese that use a big swing.

But this is what they're talking about when they reference the two.

Shuki
02-21-2016, 04:03 AM
Shuki, that is kind of what I described in the modern and the classical backhand looping style, Jorg Rosskopf vs Zhang Jike . I haven't seen the ZJK backhand in the men's sport till the advent of modern ESN / Tenergy rubbers , have you ?

Oh my bad, I misinterpreted a bit of your post, thank's for clarifying! Didn't realize we agreed on this. I noticed more of a change in the style among everyone with the larger ball than the change in ESN rubbers. My coach tells me one of the biggest reasons to end with the shorter stroke is because where you end should be your ready position, and your ending point for your forehand (give or take a few inches).

ttmonster
02-21-2016, 04:09 AM
True , the theory of the golden triangle :)

Oh my bad, I misinterpreted a bit of your post, thank's for clarifying! Didn't realize we agreed on this. I noticed more of a change in the style among everyone with the larger ball than the change in ESN rubbers. My coach tells me one of the biggest reasons to end with the shorter stroke is because where you end should be your ready position, and your ending point for your forehand (give or take a few inches).

Archosaurus
02-21-2016, 11:15 AM
The european bh loop ends with an extended follow through while the chinese bh loop ends more forward instead of to your right. But yes, there are european players that end forward instead of to the right, while there are also some chinese that use a big swing.

But this is what they're talking about when they reference the two.

Now to OP, "Fan Zhendong's opening loop @ 40sec is more akin to what I'm talking about."

At this point he doesn't lean back at all, he makes good contact and then after the contact he jumps backwards and still stays leaned forward. If you're saying you don't lean back at all now, then fantastic, you've improved from where you started in this thread and I'm happy for you :)





If you're going to not post a video of yourself, and also discredit information given to you and still ask for opinions until you get the response you want, why make the thread in the first place?

If this is what you want, yes, your backhand is superior to ours and is that of a pro. You have a naturally talented backhand that we could only dream of having. And here I was fighting that natural lean back that I had. If only I knew that it was what was actually correct, then I wouldn't have been fighting it.


I got to the conclusion I wanted. To find out if the jumping/leaning was a bad habit or a technique, and if you should strive to keep your weight forward even if you're moving backwards.

Never was this thread primarily discussing my backhand, and your sarcastic post was a bit unneeded because of that. :rolleyes: Edit: Yes, it was mentioned though. Before someone mentions.

I'd also like to clarify that nearly everyone here completely misunderstood what I'm even talking about until I posted the FZD example. Never was the amateur like hip thrusting the focus of this thread.

anchorschmidt
02-21-2016, 12:12 PM
A high level coach told me that you should alays take a jump backwards after playing an opening topspin because there is no way that the ball will come back short (unless your opponent is especially skilled in chopblocks :D).

As for leaning back
Leaning back after playing the backhand is bad for you because:

1. It puts stress on the back as you use your back as a spring for creating power.

2. The recovery time is much longer as you have to get back into the ready position.


However, in competition, even high level players are surprised by a sudden long push and they then have no other option but to not be as strict with their technique.. ZJK also used this technique once or twice in his match against Ma Long in the 2015 German Open to create extra power to get past Ma Long. However it was only used when he was sure that the ball wouldn't come back and IMO it also put stress on his back.

I really like Boll's backhand technique.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9v-LfwyukE

There is a slight upwards movement but he never leans back. His footwork close to the table is really perfect and I haven't seen him get caught out yet and lean back to play a backhand stroke.

Archosaurus
02-21-2016, 12:44 PM
So:

Get away from the edge when playing an opening topspin, but refrain from using the back.

In a way, using the back is a little like reaching for a long forehand because you're off balance: better to cure the cause.

UpSideDownCarl
02-21-2016, 01:01 PM
A high level coach told me that you should alays take a jump backwards after playing an opening topspin because there is not way that the ball will come back short (unless your opponent is especially skilled in chopblocks :D).

As for leaning back
Leaning back after playing the backhand is bad for you because:

1. It puts stress on the back as you use your back as a spring for creating power.

2. The recovery time is much longer as you have to get back into the ready position.


However, in competition, even high level players are surprised by a sudden long push and they then have no other option but to not be as strict with their technique.. ZJK also used this technique once or twice in his match against Ma Long in the 2015 German Open to create extra power to get past Ma Long. However it was only used when he was sure that the ball wouldn't come back and IMO it also put stress on his back.

I really like Boll's backhand technique.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9v-LfwyukE

There is a slight upwards movement but he never leans back. His footwork close to the table is really perfect and I haven't seen him get caught out yet and lean back to play a backhand stroke.

Great post.


So:

Get away from the edge when playing an opening topspin, but refrain from using the back.

In a way, using the back is a little like reaching for a long forehand because you're off balance: better to cure the cause.

You are finally letting go of the defensiveness and the arguing and starting to get it. Good deal. Almost everyone who commented was making a similar point to ttmonster and anchorschmidt. Now it seems you are understanding what people have been saying.

And even if you didn't understand it, there may have been a reason why Shuki got frustrated with your argumentative stance. But, the important point is, you started understanding what people were telling you. So good job on opening up and realizing what people were trying to tell you.

And good job by ttmonster and anchorschmidt for having the patience to explain this in a way that would help you understand and accept the information.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Shuki
02-22-2016, 01:01 AM
Sorry if I offended :rolleyes:

Boogar
05-13-2016, 10:55 PM
I think the leaning back can help to get the right timing to hit the ball.
Similar to the jump some players do when playing.
I also do the leaning back sometimes, however it may give you a better bat angel to spin the ball, but you lose alot of power and momentum.
What may be taken for leaning back is actually a sligth movment of the back into the stroke itself and the weight stays on the toes.
So if you are not a top player with highend technique id say its better to avoid leaning back as its only good in certain situations.

Just my two cents :)

dio_hgw
05-14-2016, 06:37 AM
I don't think it's actually the best technique but a necessary, realistic reaction. CNT players try to play close to the table, not letting the ball to drop in order to play fast powerful shots. But when they do that they are vulnerable to long fast balls, when they don't have much time to react. So they lean a bit to the back to gain a little time and a little space.

UpSideDownCarl
05-14-2016, 07:15 AM
Oh no, not this thread again. Why would anyone wake this up.

ttmonster
05-14-2016, 08:40 AM
All hail Archo the second !

Oh no, not this thread again. Why would anyone wake this up.

NextLevel
05-14-2016, 08:53 AM
All hail Archo the second !

He has posted video. He can say anything he wants ;).

ttmonster
05-14-2016, 09:33 AM
Yes, I was just informing Carl about the root cause of mild interference in the stratosphere that Carl has successfully detected using tantric radars from his abode in deep space

He has posted video. He can say anything he wants ;).

NextLevel
05-14-2016, 09:39 AM
Yes, I was just informing Carl about the root cause of mild interference in the stratosphere that Carl has successfully detected using tantric radars from his abode in deep space

I 100% agree with you. It was my first thought - you just posted it, that's all. Many young people learn well like that, hoping that others will correct them. The value of asking questions is lost on the young.

Gene Tuttle
05-14-2016, 10:43 AM
I was glad when I saw this thread as the number one problem I have according to two USTTA coaches at two different clubs is my tendency to slowly migrate (sometimes not so slowly) to the edge of the table on my backhand corner' where I become trapped and cannot use proper strokes.I end up too upright, swinging more upwards. I too play close to the table and try to catch most balls on the rise.This was originally developed in my game back in the early 90's when I was 80 lbs. lighter,ran 10 miles a day and could move around to the forehand side to flat hit and loop many shots. Back then though I wasn't so near the table as I am now, was faster and had faster reflexes. Today, I am "too close,too close,too close" and I end up trapped when a ball is hit deep and I have to stand upright/back to gain some space but end up with a weak return, have to block or having the ball go off the back end as I cant apply much topspin to the ball. In the course of the most recent training in an attempt to fix this problem I was repeatedly scourged, berated and ridiculed and forced to play at the children's table. Take it from me, the coaches and the posted video: playing closer to the table to gain more speed and a faster return is fine. So close that it prevents full strokes and forces you to pop upright in an attempt to gain the separation needed to get topspin? Bad,Bad,Bad.No be like me and "no listen". You listen to Next Level,Archosaurus,ttmonster and Timo Boll..Proper mechanics is key to the game. Otherwise you end up beaten and bloody playing at the children's table...

Archosaurus
05-14-2016, 01:06 PM
Whatever you do, don't listen to me. I think I belong at the children's table. ;)



On another account, exactly what kind of satanic ritual was performed to resurrect this beast, and who in their right mind would will it?

Boogar
05-14-2016, 01:10 PM
Whatever you do, don't listen to me. I think I belong at the children's table. ;)



On another account, exactly what kind of satanic ritual was performed to resurrect this beast, and who in their right mind would will it?

That was meee :D i thougth id stalk you a little archo.

Archosaurus
05-14-2016, 01:17 PM
That was meee :D i thougth id stalk you a little archo.

Please don't. This thread is nearly half a year old, and I was a moron half a year ago. Well, still am.

I don't suggest you start pretending to be Mr. Expert like I did, when you're just a beginner.

UpSideDownCarl
05-14-2016, 03:05 PM
Please don't. This thread is nearly half a year old, and I was a moron half a year ago. Well, still am.

I don't suggest you start pretending to be Mr. Expert like I did, when you're just a beginner.

Hahaha. This is funny.

Shuki
05-14-2016, 10:31 PM
Great bumps on a thread I was hoping would be dead. Ill help :) ^^

Boogar
05-15-2016, 08:08 AM
Bumps^^