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M51
02-28-2016, 08:04 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdyajQtcMAI

Playing a chopper can indeed be frustrating as hell. :D

ttmonster
02-28-2016, 08:12 PM
Are you the chopper in the video ? I had a sneaking suspicion :P

M51
02-28-2016, 08:14 PM
Are you the chopper in the video ? I had a sneaking suspicion :P
Good heavens, no. :eek:

Shiro
02-28-2016, 08:20 PM
Wow, he is frustrated, but i wonder why. There games were set even as the both won 1 set. He should have played calm and maybe pushed on those heavy spin shots and looped on the shots when the chopper pushed back with little to no spin.

TTFrenzy
02-28-2016, 08:45 PM
I totally feel for the guy his technique is superior to the defenders quality of chops but he hesitated so much because he lost some easy balls. once a defender gets to you and u start doubting about your stroke it feels like a slow death lol. so patience patience patience :P

TTFrenzy
02-28-2016, 08:48 PM
at some points he really plaed foolishly but thats normal if ur having a bad day and u feel that u deserved a point although u lost it because of a stupid mistake. you may win against a defender 3-0 4-0 but the feeling you have afterwards is like my god, he really pushed me to my limits.

I think most people dont like pimples because they dont enjoy this constant tactical/patience style of play needed to beat them

M51
02-28-2016, 09:01 PM
I think most people dont like pimples because they dont enjoy this constant tactical/patience style of play needed to beat them
This is true. Playing against long pips can be exhausting both physically and mentally.

vvk1
02-28-2016, 09:02 PM
I totally feel for the guy his technique is superior to the defenders quality of chops but he hesitated so much because he lost some easy balls. once a defender gets to you and u start doubting about your stroke it feels like a slow death lol. so patience patience patience :P

And that's where you're wrong. The defender was clearly superior to the other player in this match - precisely because the defender succeeded in making the attacker hezitate and lose his sh*t. That is the ultimate defender's objective.

Ilia Minkin
02-28-2016, 09:18 PM
Come on, it is not that bad. When one throws his racket into the opponent -- that is when he "loses his s**t" :)

TTFrenzy
02-28-2016, 11:59 PM
And that's where you're wrong. The defender was clearly superior to the other player in this match - precisely because the defender succeeded in making the attacker hezitate and lose his sh*t. That is the ultimate defender's objective.

its a matter of perspective. a calm guy with his technique would win rather easily.

the chops are way too high

TTFrenzy
02-29-2016, 12:10 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoBKpAVm6PM&ebc=ANyPxKom6JhB9N4OUraYl9XUyRU9xBC6b4kgH5o_9eFar0 n_e_fmW5C1dl-SD1-AbYkZPZAWYmcedcqeqvATkk-WryF5AK7Oyw

lol he lost the match with a net match ball. it was hilarious how much he was pissed off.

Baal
02-29-2016, 12:21 AM
I suspect this particular chopper beats young loopers at this level quite often, he has been eating guys like that for lunch for a long time.

TTFrenzy
02-29-2016, 12:50 AM
I suspect this particular chopper beats young loopers at this level quite often, he has been eating guys like that for lunch for a long time.


Yeah he really seems calm and composed, just get the ball to the table and let the other guy handle his psycho issues.

fais
02-29-2016, 02:07 AM
Never confuse technique and consistency. He gets frustrated because he misses shots he thinks are easy.

Well guess what buddy, in basketball we have an expression "the ball don't lie". Don't think yourself to be better than you actually are. If you lose, then obviously you aren't there yet, so go hit up practice and comeback and try again.

I think this was one of the secrets to Waldner's success. He never had an inflated sense of self. If he missed, he missed. If he lost, he lost. And, if he won, he won. Why involve emotions into something that is so factually evident?

In my case, I used to get worked up like this guy. I took lessons and still lost to people who didn't know how to play... until I realized, getting good at table tennis takes much, much, much, much, much longer than I think. So why get frustrated, when everything I was/am doing will make me good eventually, not just now? If it were easy, every one would be good at it, and so would I!

UpSideDownCarl
02-29-2016, 02:30 AM
The chopper is pretty decent.


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Shuki
02-29-2016, 02:36 AM
And here I thought everyone enjoyed playing choppers.

Archosaurus
02-29-2016, 03:06 AM
These videos are a good example of "Knowing you can do it, so you're lazy on execution" and missing easy shots.

You just know you can return mostly everything that comes your way, and the only reason you would lose is just pure statistical inconsistency, so you assume that the ball will go over the net even if you make a half assed return.


Unfortunately, we cannot control the ball with our mind, so 100% effort needs to be put especially into the easy put away shots. :rolleyes:

NextLevel
02-29-2016, 05:42 AM
Nah, this had nothing to do with easy putaway shots and everything to do with experience playing defenders.

Maybe it is just these clips but the defender never attacks. That is clue one. His style is to frustrate you.

Because of that, a smart attack must only attack hard the high percentage balls because setting up the attack is key when playing such players. There were balls that were attacked hard that the chopper had time do things to that the attacker could not read perfectly. Maybe the attacker has never studied the cognitive side of table tennis so he things high balls are easy. Anyone can miss a shot if they misread the spin or do not practice a lot. You just accept it and move on and think about why you misread it.

Moreover, the attacker was not that frustrated. I have seen much worse.

The chopper is also pretty good - not superfantastic, but definitely in the class of the attacker. He chopped quite a few balls low from well below the table.

When I play defenders, the first thing I need to establish is what the defender will attack amongst my popups and safe openings. That sets the tone for the match. I will only keep up topspin if the defender attacks backspin extremely well. Otherwise, I will push a lot and pick.when to open and when to kill. I prefer to open with topspin to get a high ball and then flat hit. I don't mind pushing and I will engage in pushing rallies unless the defender attacks backspin.

It is the people who want to be macho that struggle against defenders. They watch high level TT and think that looping vs defense is the way to play but they are just copying and don't get the logic of playing defenders. It is to only attack if pressured or if you can read the ball. Or use a safety spin. Kill.is only when you know you have set up the defender.

Der_Echte
02-29-2016, 06:56 AM
It is the people who want to be macho that struggle against defenders... It is to only attack if you can read the ball.

Well said. Some defenders can defeat hotshot loopers, and if you look at the games the higher rated attacking players lost, you see sum trends... NL hit upon several.

I call it being "Brain Dead" which is failing to adapt, even if you have the tools to do so. When I watch such a match, I start mumbling and singing "I wanna be a Macho, Macho Man"

One of the keys to win vs defender NL hit upon, several. You use variety, then when you are sure of your chance, you go strong and still be ready. I like going heavy, but go strong if ball is high and I read it. Heavy is safer, and often it wins the point, often gives you a good chance to end it if it is bumped back.

brabhamista
02-29-2016, 04:11 PM
I think the chopper is outsmarting and outplaying his opponent very well. Despite what looks like inferior technique, he is the better player as he fairly comfortably takes home the win.

I don't agree that it's about superior technique, lazy execution or staying calm. That assumes that the attacker has the better technique and therefore should win in all cases.

IMHO, it's an illusion to think that "my technique looks far better so he is naturally not up to my playing standard". Your technique is just one part of winning a match. The other, more important one, is your head and how well you apply your skills and how well you contain your opponent. If you can't play that game, you will loosejust like this guy did.

Here's a video showing what most people on this forum would call inferior technique. Have a look at it for 2 minutes. That's all you need.
(Start from 7.50. They have warmed up a bit afetr the first set then)


http://youtu.be/Nx8xTIeltaU?t=7m56s

I'm willing to bet that most who compare themselves to these players will say: "They look rubbish compared to me. Just look at their forehand techniques. They're awful: stiff and too jerky. And the guy in red can't even serve properly! I'll beat them both."

But you wouldn't. You wouldn't even come close.

Yes, they look awful technically, but they certainly know how to play the game of table tennis. At the time of that match, Pattantyus was in the 80's on the world ranking and Chtchetinine was in the 70's.

In short, none of us would have beaten them, despite most of us probably having more beautiful ("better") technique, because we can't think table tennis to the degree that they can. I certainly wish I had that ability :)

luqketti
02-29-2016, 04:20 PM
well the attacker doesnt have good technique, he is always doubting his shots, he is not playing agressive enough as you should with a defender, most of his attack shots are full of spin but not force or speed, so yea he isnt pushing the defender into a difficult position, half of his top spin plays he isnt even using the whole body movement.

Archosaurus
02-29-2016, 04:47 PM
@luqketti

He is preventing the chopper from attacking or making any kind of aggressive moves.

Players like Ma Lin and Wang Hao who eat choppers for breakfast also make mostly shots with only spin and no force. The standard Chinese way is push -> soft loop until they get a ball to kill. The difference is that this player can't hit the kills as well as the top Chinese can, which shouldn't be surprising.

Or are you implying that you know how to play choppers better than Ma Lin and Wang Hao? :rolleyes:

The reason the player in the video lost is mental. He's falling to the chopper's rhythm and he's not patient enough to consistently keep disarming the spin with pushes and pressuring with loops until he gets a sure put away shot.

@brabhamista

They look far from awful in form. I also don't see much wrong with red's serve: it appears to have good spin, it's low and he contacts near the edge.

UpSideDownCarl
02-29-2016, 04:54 PM
I think, anyone who doesn't see how solid and composed the older guy is and how he is outplaying and outsmarting the looper, has missed something and may be showing his level of understanding for the game.

On this day, the older gentlemen playing defense with the pips is the better player. Nice to see his touch, his skill in returning most of the younger players power shots, and his outsmarting the younger player.

Makes me think of this:


http://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8


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Archosaurus
02-29-2016, 04:56 PM
I think, anyone who doesn't see how solid and composed the older guy is and how he is outplaying and outsmarting the looper, has missed something and may be showing his level of understanding for the game.

On this day, the older gentlemen playing defense with the pips is the better player. Nice to see his touch, his skill in returning most of the younger players power shots, and his outsmarting the younger player.


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This.


If a player who is using "bad technique" is beating a player with "good technique", imagine what he can do if he uses "good technique" as well!

That video's hilarious.

Once you start respecting pip users, you can start eating them for breakfast. After all, there's a reason why the "junk rubber" is not as popular: it's actually inferior! Sure takes skill to win with an inferior platform.


I kind of wish Joo had won a championship at least once, so we'd have more young choppers around. High level defense is far from un-athletic.

krop
02-29-2016, 06:07 PM
Franjo capan is a great defender. He is playing also in my club.

Poslano z mojega Nexus 5 z uporabo Tapatalk

UpSideDownCarl
02-29-2016, 06:53 PM
I actually don't think the chopper is using inferior technique. The looper must be doing something WRONG if he keeps messing up. And the chopper's technique of chopping, and his ability to get so many balls back seems like pretty good technique, at least to me.

Besides, it is interesting to see how well he moves and he is likely 30-40 years older than his opponent and he is skillfully handing him a beating and frustrating him.

Unless you hit the top 10 in the world, you will always find pips players who are higher level than you. And when you play a pips player who is higher level than your ability to play vs a pips player, you will NOT EAT THEM FOR BREAKFAST. In fact you will probably get eaten for breakfast.

I worded what I said carefully so Der_Echte doesn't come on here and say he can beat most pips players 1 or 2 levels higher than him. He can! The reason? He is about 2 levels higher vs pips players than he is against offensive loopers.

So when he plays a pips player who is higher level than his level vs pips players, he will have a rough time. [emoji2]

Table tennis is a game and a sport of skill and levels. There are many skills that go into higher level play. Technique chopping is different technique than technique looping. The ability to retrieve and return everything is also a skill that requires practice. In a match, when you miss the table, it implies something went wrong.




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Archosaurus
02-29-2016, 07:30 PM
Chopping and non-standard surfaces being inferior meaning that their ultimate potential is not as high.

Of course, we all know that we are NOT top 10 players, and we all have a hard time with good choppers. Thus, it's not really an inferior surface at everything except the highest of the high level.

I used to play defense starting out, and I still muck around with it, and trust me, offense only players who have never done a chop in their life can't appreciate how hard it is to win points as passive defense.

In fact, I would recommend playing a passive style, pips or not, and trying to win points via placement and smart spins. It really helps your short game and reading of the ball.

izra
02-29-2016, 10:08 PM
franjo capan is 60 years old. he very rarely attacks and he fares better in the league than the attacker. he used to play on a top level in yugoslavia back in the days of surbek and stipancic. i don't know how you got the impression that the "attackers technique is better than the defenders quality of chops".

NextLevel
02-29-2016, 10:47 PM
franjo capan is 60 years old. he very rarely attacks and he fares better in the league than the attacker. he used to play on a top level in yugoslavia back in the days of surbek and stipancic. i don't know how you got the impression that the "attackers technique is better than the defenders quality of chops".

Thanks - now you all know why I wanted to see TTFrenzy loop (he can loop by the way, so I am just mocking him).

UpSideDownCarl
02-29-2016, 11:45 PM
Alone, in a room by yourself, with a glowing screen in front of you, a person can come to feel they know everything about all styles of play. Even--or perhaps especially--when they are not playing for all that long.

Video footage of a person playing is like a business card that doesn't lie. Then people know who can walk the walk. And usually someone who has played long enough to develop some decent level of technique would probably have an appreciation for what it takes to get to be a higher level player.

And certainly someone who has achieved a decent level of technique, of whatever style, can appreciate the skill of that 60 year old guy. He is pretty talented and pretty artful in his play.

And, yeah, TTFrenzy can play decently and has earned his stripes. Now there is a Jurassic reptile in the house who needs to leave his business card.


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BeGo
02-29-2016, 11:54 PM
Well, all chopper, myself included, shall be very happy when my trigger happy opponent looking at His bat, confused, what wrong with my blade?

(Evil smile)

Btw, regarding inferior rubber and technique,

Is not that horse inferior to eagle.

It just that horse cant fly, but sure can run. :)

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Shuki
03-01-2016, 12:24 AM
I saw that part of the topic changed to players that use "inferior playing surfaces" or "junk rubbers".

These are my favorite players to play against. Not only do I know the ball isn't coming at me THAT fast, so i have more time to get in place. I also know to always attack that side.

The reason most players stick long pips or antispin on one side is because that side is weak. So don't be afraid to attack that side! They are weak there. Players tend to hit to the inverted side because they don't understand some of the balls they get back from the junk but I strongly believe this is the wrong idea.

NextLevel
03-01-2016, 12:26 AM
I saw that part of the topic changed to players that use "inferior playing surfaces" or "junk rubbers".

These are my favorite players to play against. Not only do I know the ball isn't coming at me THAT fast, so i have more time to get in place. I also know to always attack that side.

The reason most players stick long pips or antispin on one side is because that side is weak. So don't be afraid to attack that side! They are weak there. Players tend to hit to the inverted side because they don't understand some of the balls they get back from the junk but I strongly believe this is the wrong idea.

At the lower levels, yes, but at the higher levels, it is part of a game plan. Don't underestimate it.

Shuki
03-01-2016, 12:46 AM
At the lower levels, yes, but at the higher levels, it is part of a game plan. Don't underestimate it.

Interesting, I guess I haven't played anyone over 2000 with it but I can consistently beat the local 1900's that rely on it.

Actually a player locally here, named Jeff Johnson (or maybe Johnston) is the one who told me to always attack the junk side. He's won the hardbat US Open a couple times, so I trusted his advice. But then again it could probably just be advice he was giving me just for the level that I'm at.

NextLevel
03-01-2016, 03:08 AM
Interesting, I guess I haven't played anyone over 2000 with it but I can consistently beat the local 1900's that rely on it.

Actually a player locally here, named Jeff Johnson (or maybe Johnston) is the one who told me to always attack the junk side. He's won the hardbat US Open a couple times, so I trusted his advice. But then again it could probably just be advice he was giving me just for the level that I'm at.

OK, since what I said and what he said are both half-truths, let me write a bit more on it.

There are players who went to junk rubbers (I am not a fan of the phrase) because they realized that it suited their game in one of a few ways:

1. Their coach trained them to use it, or it just fits their personality and they got really good at using it - I know people whose pip game is their strength and their inverted game is not even a factor. They chop block, hit and dead block impressively even with medium or long pips, and their pip attacks are even stronger than their inverted attacks.
2. It enabled them to stay closer to the table and take the ball off the bounce - this is a common reason for using pips and anti of all kinds, and it is combined with my next point, but let me leave it as a standard point.
3. It enabled them to set up their forehand loop vs. underspin. Players like Danny Seemiller and John Wetzler in the US use anti and long pips on the backhand for this reason.
4. It enable them to chop better - see defenders and modern defenders.
5. They struggle to read and control heavy spin generally and need something to switch the tempo up.
6. They realized that their backhand or forehand inverted game (or both) would never be topspin away from the table, sometimes for health reasons, so they wanted to change to something that might give them an off tempo advantage.

Most of the people you are talking about are in category 5 and sometimes in category 6. But even some people in category 5 and 6 sometimes end up being in categories 1, 2, 3 and 4 over time.

This doesn't change the broad principle you pointed out at times, and I think when you play against pips, the truth is that you tend to end up learning to play against the pips rather than the player because they are relatively limited in their rally spin generation if medium or long so that experience lets you treat players similarly. But if a player learns to attack with his pips, that often changes things. And if a player has a good inverted side and becomes very skilled at setting it up with the pips, then you have a pretty high level player. In a sense, the pips side is still their weakness, but it has a purpose that you cannot underestimate especially if you don't practice enough against the kinds of balls you will get from the pips.

USually, I divide pips players into two, those who only dead block and those who dead block, chop block, and hit/attack. The former tend to be under 2000, the latter tend to be over 2000. There are exceptions here and there, but that is the general rule.

To give an example: If my inverted backhand wasn't so strong relative to the rest of my game, I would have been a prime candidate for pips because I like to attack backspin. I would probably learn to do many things with them.

UpSideDownCarl
03-01-2016, 03:12 AM
Yep. And anyone who thinks that Pips is an inferior surface might need to figure out what DTop is presenting in the following video: especially the part about ITTF's aspect ratio ban and who was the World Champion whose pips were banned. :) Hint he still has a little somethin' to do with the CNT men's team these days.


http://youtu.be/pW2q9nnD2fk


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Shuki
03-01-2016, 04:46 AM
@NL

I really like this post, lots of information here, I too, respect the "junk rubber" play style as it's something that must be learned just like any other style.



Let's take twiddlers out of the equation for a moment. If your opponent wasn't able to twiddle would you still feel a strong sense of struggles against these players?

Also given that you had time to get in place to perform a loop that's SLOW with strong topspin, wouldn't you prefer to hit it against the lp,anti side? I tend to play these players with slower spinny loops instead of a faster loop because firstly, it gives me even more time. Second, if they block with the lp/anti I'm getting another underspin loop which is what I'd prefer when trying to play a slower topspin game. And this is only in my experience, but if they try and counter my slow topspin off the bounce with their "junk" it does come at me moderately fast, but the spin is dead and I can really just slap it back.




BTW i'm not considering short pips in this at all. I actually really struggle with strong short pip players as they tend to play close to the table and have very strong counter drives. Our second best player is a penholder with only 1 rubber and it's short pips. Very aggressive.


And again, twiddler's are a super breed. All respect to you.




EDIT: I guess it would help if I describe my playstyle. I play close to the table. Against inverted players I'm very "blocky" I change the pace from aggressive to something I call pitter patter pace. I simply can't outplay speed. It's strange that I play this way because I'm extremely comfortable looping underspin, with both my fh and bh. So what I tend to do is open up with something heavy and spinny, if I'm opening up with FH. I can change the pace to fast and spinny or fast and less spinny with my fh loop. and then immediately go to pace changing blocks instead of another attack if they return it. My backhand doesn't tend to be very spinny but it's very consistent and I'm very comfortable flipping most, short balls.

Anyway I think what I like about playing the "junk" rubbers is that I get to do an opening FH loop and then comes another backspin ball for yet another of my stronger shot. It's the only time I get to actually feel like I'm attacking multiple balls in a row.

Since I don't back off the table and am moderately tall and lanky, my follow up to my opening loop is weak. I should be backing up for another loop since it's my strongest shot. But I don't.

SchemeSC
03-01-2016, 05:37 AM
Just a general comment here:

One of the things that I find interesting about loopers when they play against choppers is how they will constantly play hard, fast loops right at the corners of the table. But when someone is playing way off the table (like a chopper), attacking hard at the corners is probably the worst thing you can do. That means you are playing the ball just wide enough for the chopper to have to make no decision between forehand and backhand, yet at the same time the looper has no real potential to hit the ball past him. Watch Kong Linghui's famous match against Joo See Hyuk and take note of how many of Kong's loops actually break the sidelines, then go back and compare the video posted by the OP and notice how virtually none of his shots break a sideline. I understand it's an entirely different level, but I still find it instructive.

Many of the best players of all time, like Waldner and Kong, seemed to have a keen sense that the best way to play choppers was with either hooking sidespin or going hard right into their body. But we rarely see amatuer loopers play this way, even though it probably is within their capabilities.

Heck, at the sub 2000 level where I play, I have found better success playing choppers with soft, slow loops (that are probably more like rolls) right at the middle of the table than I have with hard shots right at the corners. I find lower level choppers will make lots of unforced errors with this method, as they are forced to make a determination not only between forehand or backhand but also whether or not to play defense or counterattack. That's a lot of decisions to make even against a slow ball, and I've seen some choppers fall apart against this tactic.

ttmonster
03-01-2016, 06:09 AM
You are probably right in your assessment. However there are a couple of things to remember, at sub 2000 levels, people generally don't play or don't know how to play consistently at the opponents body, it is a 2100 + level thought process and technique , people below are just content to hit the ball on the table and placement generally means loops at the corners. Now, coming to sidespin , there is a risk to sidespin against long pips, because it needs footwork and advanced looping technique to adjust to the under side ball coming back. Infact, most people try to to keep it as simple as possible , , I have always tried to slow loop and push alternatively against Long pips and then go for the kill when the ball is there. And , I am around 1700 or slightly better when my legs are moving :) . However, I will give it a try as you suggested next time I play a chopper.

Just a general comment here:

One of the things that I find interesting about loopers when they play against choppers is how they will constantly play hard, fast loops right at the corners of the table. But when someone is playing way off the table (like a chopper), attacking hard at the corners is probably the worst thing you can do. That means you are playing the ball just wide enough for the chopper to have to make no decision between forehand and backhand, yet at the same time the looper has no real potential to hit the ball past him. Watch Kong Linghui's famous match against Joo See Hyuk and take note of how many of Kong's loops actually break the sidelines, then go back and compare the video posted by the OP and notice how virtually none of his shots break a sideline. I understand it's an entirely different level, but I still find it instructive.

Many of the best players of all time, like Waldner and Kong, seemed to have a keen sense that the best way to play choppers was with either hooking sidespin or going hard right into their body. But we rarely see amatuer loopers play this way, even though it probably is within their capabilities.

Heck, at the sub 2000 level where I play, I have found better success playing choppers with soft, slow loops (that are probably more like rolls) right at the middle of the table than I have with hard shots right at the corners. I find lower level choppers will make lots of unforced errors with this method, as they are forced to make a determination not only between forehand or backhand but also whether or not to play defense or counterattack. That's a lot of decisions to make even against a slow ball, and I've seen some choppers fall apart against this tactic.

Der_Echte
03-01-2016, 07:12 AM
In before Carl re-words hiz post about Der_Echte and pips players. He correctly said I play winning or competitive vs MOST pips players 2 levels above me, but surely not ALL of them. My Howard County tourney in January I had the tools to win vs an OX LP on BH player 1-2 levels higher rated, but played very stubborn and brain dead in that match. Even after the match, when a better player told me what was really happening, I refused to accept it and blamed it on the bad bouncing seamed plastic ball they used for matches. Dude simply had a soft hand I never saw (think - hand pressure is the invisible force) and he killed spin real well and made it look heavy.

d3m0n14k
03-01-2016, 10:06 AM
The important thing to do is to play the shots that come over the net. If the guy has what looks like terrible technique, but the balls keep coming back / going past you, then guess what, its working for him.

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 01:19 PM
Thanks - now you all know why I wanted to see TTFrenzy loop (he can loop by the way, so I am just mocking him).


hahahah no hard feelings. on a bad mood that defender would have crushed me easily it happened so many times so far I lost count. Pimples always need a different approach and readjust your mindset to play them

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 01:24 PM
franjo capan is 60 years old. he very rarely attacks and he fares better in the league than the attacker. he used to play on a top level in yugoslavia back in the days of surbek and stipancic. i don't know how you got the impression that the "attackers technique is better than the defenders quality of chops".


Izra, forgive my style of critique I know I sound too stiff sometimes but when I see a player play, I always focus on his technique aspect only and then start to wander about the psychological aspect. For me as a "wannabe coach" is always a challenge to try to find why a player with a good technique misses a "relatively easy" (or what appears to be but it isnt) shot. But as Im a strict fan of correct form and energy consumption I always look at technique first and then tactics/psychology.

So from POV of technique only the attacker is better. BUT :

1) He mostly thinks the incoming ball is easy and is lazy on his feet resulting in a pathetic loop, which either is coming back or out or into the net

2) He gets pissed so much that he is too tight on his muschles and doesnt adjust his body with the arc of the ball.

3) He doesnt think at all what he is doing he just loops and loops hoping that he will loop kill after a certain point

So when I say the attacker is better in terms of technique I still believe it , but technique alone does not win the games does it ? We need tactics strategy patience persistence and of course good psychology. I was only commenting on the technique :P

NextLevel
03-01-2016, 01:40 PM
Izra, forgive my style of critique I know I sound too stiff sometimes but when I see a player play, I always focus on his technique aspect only and then start to wander about the psychological aspect. For me as a "wannabe coach" is always a challenge to try to find why a player with a good technique misses a "relatively easy" (or what appears to be but it isnt) shot. But as Im a strict fan of correct form and energy consumption I always look at technique first and then tactics/psychology.

So from POV of technique only the attacker is better. BUT :

1) He mostly thinks the incoming ball is easy and is lazy on his feet resulting in a pathetic loop, which either is coming back or out or into the net

2) He gets pissed so much that he is too tight on his muschles and doesnt adjust his body with the arc of the ball.

3) He doesnt think at all what he is doing he just loops and loops hoping that he will loop kill after a certain point

So when I say the attacker is better in terms of technique I still believe it , but technique alone does not win the games does it ? We need tactics strategy patience persistence and of course good psychology. I was only commenting on the technique :P

But nothing you have said applies to the defender's technique...

NextLevel
03-01-2016, 01:55 PM
@NL

I really like this post, lots of information here, I too, respect the "junk rubber" play style as it's something that must be learned just like any other style.



Let's take twiddlers out of the equation for a moment. If your opponent wasn't able to twiddle would you still feel a strong sense of struggles against these players?



IT's not so much struggle per se, but what they are able to do. Can they attack all kinds of balls with their pips or can they only hit one kind of ball? Or can they control all kinds of balls or can they control only one kind of ball? Usually, most pips players live off the unfamiliarity of the attacker with the pips ball. IF you understand TT enough, you will always adjust



Also given that you had time to get in place to perform a loop that's SLOW with strong topspin, wouldn't you prefer to hit it against the lp,anti side? I tend to play these players with slower spinny loops instead of a faster loop because firstly, it gives me even more time. Second, if they block with the lp/anti I'm getting another underspin loop which is what I'd prefer when trying to play a slower topspin game. And this is only in my experience, but if they try and counter my slow topspin off the bounce with their "junk" it does come at me moderately fast, but the spin is dead and I can really just slap it back.


The really good push blockers want you to spin heavy because they have designed their equipment to be as close to frictionless LP as much as possible. This enables them to produce extremely short and heavy backspin off topspin below a certain threshold if they catch the ball correctly off the bounce. And since most people do not practice attacking short heavy backspin over the table, even if it floats high, you are almost always screwed once they get the ball on the table as it is not going to come out to you for a reloop the same way a push or a mistimed ball will. And unless you are used to pushing that ball, which requires a fine but thicker contact than a regular push of a spinny serve, to give an example, you will almost always be screwed by that ball.




BTW i'm not considering short pips in this at all. I actually really struggle with strong short pip players as they tend to play close to the table and have very strong counter drives. Our second best player is a penholder with only 1 rubber and it's short pips. Very aggressive.


And again, twiddler's are a super breed. All respect to you.


Twiddlers are no different ultimately from people who use different rubbers on each sides - they can just crossover/pivot faster.




EDIT: I guess it would help if I describe my playstyle. I play close to the table. Against inverted players I'm very "blocky" I change the pace from aggressive to something I call pitter patter pace. I simply can't outplay speed. It's strange that I play this way because I'm extremely comfortable looping underspin, with both my fh and bh. So what I tend to do is open up with something heavy and spinny, if I'm opening up with FH. I can change the pace to fast and spinny or fast and less spinny with my fh loop. and then immediately go to pace changing blocks instead of another attack if they return it. My backhand doesn't tend to be very spinny but it's very consistent and I'm very comfortable flipping most, short balls.

Anyway I think what I like about playing the "junk" rubbers is that I get to do an opening FH loop and then comes another backspin ball for yet another of my stronger shot. It's the only time I get to actually feel like I'm attacking multiple balls in a row.

Since I don't back off the table and am moderately tall and lanky, my follow up to my opening loop is weak. I should be backing up for another loop since it's my strongest shot. But I don't.

Your style is similar to mine and that is why you like playing pips because you don't like to back up - I don't either. Vs topspin play, over time, you will need to find a good distance for rallying but your close to the table game will reward you when playing the pips players. In TT, you need all kinds of skills to match up with different opponents and we all build them up in different orders. In the end, just keep plugging away and avoid frustration. And serve and serve return are the universals so any improvements there will always pay your game.

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 02:19 PM
But nothing you have said applies to the defender's technique...

Yes let me be more specific , I was only focusing on the attacker. The defenders technique as long as the ball is slow and not spinny is very good, he keeps the ball low and in spots that are difficult to attack.

But as I noticed when the attacker does not mess up and hits a good spinny FH then he takes the ball too early and with stiff motion resulting in a high chop.

Now after the high chop the attacker miraculously manages to miss it because he thinks its easy although it isnt most of the times you can hear the thin chop meaning it has good underspin. So the way I see it, it is a matter of mostly the attacker losing against himself. I find it weird that he can loop some good low chops but yet he fails to adapt on high balls

So in the end I suppose it is a matter of misjudgement, maybe too much self confidence?

Now I know I may sound too biased over the attacker maybe it is because Im an attacker myself, I cant even imagine how diffult it is to be a good chopper. So I know I cant have a 100 % objective opinion

But what I saw in terms of technique is : player A performs a good loop, player B chops it, the ball gets high, player A misses it for one of the reasons the forum users and I have mentioned.

In the rest of the match we can also see that the attacker makes some stupid choices also thats undeniable, but as i explained since want to become a coach when i watch a video the first thing that comes to my mind is to observe technique. Sorry for the long post

bobpuls
03-01-2016, 02:24 PM
I think the chopper is outsmarting and outplaying his opponent very well. Despite what looks like inferior technique, he is the better player as he fairly comfortably takes home the win.

I don't agree that it's about superior technique, lazy execution or staying calm. That assumes that the attacker has the better technique and therefore should win in all cases.

IMHO, it's an illusion to think that "my technique looks far better so he is naturally not up to my playing standard". Your technique is just one part of winning a match. The other, more important one, is your head and how well you apply your skills and how well you contain your opponent. If you can't play that game, you will loosejust like this guy did.

Here's a video showing what most people on this forum would call inferior technique. Have a look at it for 2 minutes. That's all you need.
(Start from 7.50. They have warmed up a bit afetr the first set then)


http://youtu.be/Nx8xTIeltaU?t=7m56s

I'm willing to bet that most who compare themselves to these players will say: "They look rubbish compared to me. Just look at their forehand techniques. They're awful: stiff and too jerky. And the guy in red can't even serve properly! I'll beat them both."

But you wouldn't. You wouldn't even come close.

Yes, they look awful technically, but they certainly know how to play the game of table tennis. At the time of that match, Pattantyus was in the 80's on the world ranking and Chtchetinine was in the 70's.

In short, none of us would have beaten them, despite most of us probably having more beautiful ("better") technique, because we can't think table tennis to the degree that they can. I certainly wish I had that ability :)
This is exactly the type of game i hate the most... I rather lose by scratching the match. Then play this type of game..... I do not need to win i just want to enjoy the match..... This are only pushchops what i understand for older people who are not so agile...

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 02:35 PM
I think the chopper is outsmarting and outplaying his opponent very well. Despite what looks like inferior technique, he is the better player as he fairly comfortably takes home the win.

I don't agree that it's about superior technique, lazy execution or staying calm. That assumes that the attacker has the better technique and therefore should win in all cases.

IMHO, it's an illusion to think that "my technique looks far better so he is naturally not up to my playing standard". Your technique is just one part of winning a match. The other, more important one, is your head and how well you apply your skills and how well you contain your opponent. If you can't play that game, you will loosejust like this guy did.

Here's a video showing what most people on this forum would call inferior technique. Have a look at it for 2 minutes. That's all you need.
(Start from 7.50. They have warmed up a bit afetr the first set then)


http://youtu.be/Nx8xTIeltaU?t=7m56s

I'm willing to bet that most who compare themselves to these players will say: "They look rubbish compared to me. Just look at their forehand techniques. They're awful: stiff and too jerky. And the guy in red can't even serve properly! I'll beat them both."

But you wouldn't. You wouldn't even come close.

Yes, they look awful technically, but they certainly know how to play the game of table tennis. At the time of that match, Pattantyus was in the 80's on the world ranking and Chtchetinine was in the 70's.

In short, none of us would have beaten them, despite most of us probably having more beautiful ("better") technique, because we can't think table tennis to the degree that they can. I certainly wish I had that ability :)


Great insight but ok chechetinin is an established player and he managed to beat some of the top names in Europe, its not an accurate comparison.

His serve might look simple but it isnt , just because it doesnt look flashy as ma long's doesnt mean its not a good serve. I would consider it world class because the motion is very small, the motion before and after contact is the same, and he always changes the tempo on the serve.

Now I totally agree with some aspects of your post.

From a 100 pool of good amateur players it would be interesting to see how many of them would be sure that they could beat chechetinin or pattantyus BUT without knowing who they are. Maybe repost the video on another forum without the names and check the reactions, I bet people would start betting on their ratings and start pointing fingers on their "bad" serves and form.

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 02:52 PM
ok I just watched the 2 sets again a few times. But this time I replayed some points and focused only on the defender.

He finds it difficult to control slow spinny loops with his inverted rubber but his BH chop with the pimples is pretty sick. In fact its so good and low that he made 3 net balls in single set which seem to be only luck but it isnt. His tactic was to make it difficult for the attacker to loop kill and pin him on the BH side, now on the other hand the attacker failed to realize that he wins most of his points by playing to the FH side of his opponent. Because when the defender chops with inverted the ball is high and easy (doesnt matter if the attacker gets so pissed that he also loses these easy balls, the strategy im talking is correct, no way he could beat that guy with looping on his BH side)


All in all excuse me for my previous analysis, I believe this one is more accurate

DTopSpirit
03-01-2016, 03:45 PM
Had a bit of a look at the original video back in post #1 and a read through the thread.

As someone who had spent a lot of time defending in the past, here's a few thoughts on what is going on in my own humble opinion:

Summary:

The attacker is not switched on mentally at the time we start watching the video, at 5-2. The frustration is obvious but you can also see his inconsistent recovery/footwork, and repeated failure to read the spin by not paying attention to what the chopper is doing.

The chopper looks like somebody who was very good when younger, and still has nice touch although somewhat limited mobility. He definitely plays the forehand more upright than the backhand, possibly due to sore knees or a bad hip? The backhand chop looks solid, the forehand looks a little different than most choppers (much less backswing, not as high), but it is still getting the racket through the hitting zone consistently.

The chopper does put a couple of balls high, which can sometimes be due to trying to get under the ball for more spin and slightly mistiming, which puts the ball higher, or misreading the amount of spin on the loop. Sometimes though a sneaky chopper will purposefully chop the ball higher to tempt the opponent into attacking more often instead of pushing. I'd guess maybe a bit of both in this video. Slightly higher balls will keep the opponent attacking instead of pushing, so the chopper doesn't have to run in and out as much.

Technique wise - I find it hard to say. You've got a young attacker who's not concentrating properly but who seems to have fairly standard technique versus an older chopper who probably has some movement issues, and who has an odd looking but perfectly workable forehand. Plus a lovely smooth and quick twiddle.

Finally, a little point by point analysis from a chopper's point of view:

5-2, 5sec - nice twiddles, good backhand by the attacker out wide caught him by surprise


5-3, 17 sec, another nice twiddle coupled with a lovely long pip backhand from down low


6-3, 34 sec, sneaky floated backhand deep chop with the inverted, opponent failed to read it at all and played for the non-existent backspin


7-3, 46 sec - even rally - some forehand chops going high possibly because he tried to spin heavy and missed the timing a little, good finish of a short ball by attacker


7-4, 1:14 - very nice twiddle and control of the forehand inverted chop


8-4, 1:34 - good serve and follow up wide to the forehand by attacker, sets up a lunging fh chop which goes high and is put away. The chopper looks uncomfortable wide the forehand - possibly poor knees/bad back?


8-5, 1:48 - sneaky bh inverted return of fast serve which goes high because he has got under it a bit and chopped it with more spin. Could be on purpose to tempt an unwise attack, or could be accidentally higher than intended. Either way, no reading of spin by the attacker.


9-5, 2:04 - screaming fh attack by attacker but straight to fh wing of chopper, beautifully controlled low fh chop, attacker stops recovering after this and gives up the point by trying to hit a fh from a bh stance


10-5, 2:20 good wide bh attack and fh attack follow up, defender gets caught a little close to the table and tries to finesse a chop ball with a float, but goes a little high and long


10-6, 2:28 - attacker tries to play safe, rolling the attack, but misreads spin on chop and puts push into net.

adetrisno
03-01-2016, 04:59 PM
Well in our region finding somebody who plays with long pips is hard enough. As consequences, it's always hard for our club members and few other clubs to deal with them. I need to face the guy 3 times to get used to his pips. Damn, I am dumb.

Most of the time, I played with enough patience though. A loop, a push, another loop, another push. I will keep it until I feel the ball is high enough for me to loopkill it.

So yeah, you need to be patience when up against a chopper. It's frustrating as hell but as long as the ball goes on your opponent's half, you will win. :D

izra
03-01-2016, 07:23 PM
the main reason the defender won is rather simple: the attacker couldn't read the spin well enough.

now, how good would you say this defender is?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5P3bhjcZw4

i know a very good player who beat both of them a couple of years ago and said that the older gentleman was a more difficult match because his chops were more deceptive.

Tembel
03-01-2016, 07:41 PM
It's so sad when people can't acknowledge the skill it takes to execute a different style (anything that doesn't include, attack all balls coming at you with top spin) of play. Just because he doesn't hit the ball with top spin it doesn't mean his technique is inferior. I would say that some of the returns he hit display far more technique than the basic looping done by the youngster.

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 07:52 PM
It's so sad when people can't acknowledge the skill it takes to execute a different style (anything that doesn't include, attack all balls coming at you with top spin) of play. Just because he doesn't hit the ball with top spin it doesn't mean his technique is inferior. I would say that some of the returns he hit display far more technique than the basic looping done by the youngster.

You didnt read all of my posts :) if you did you would notice that I analyze some of his strengths as well.

And please guys, its boring and funny when someone talks about "people doing that and that"

I was the only one here that criticized his technique as inferior, Im not "the people" so please have the courage of your opinion my name is TTFrenzy or George whatever you like. Hiding yourself behind words is pathetic, unless you are 10 years old

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 07:58 PM
It's so sad that "people" forget that the forums are for discussion and not for pointing fingers or downgrading anyone. Just because I said his technique is inferior doesnt mean that he doesnt have good technique. Can you spot the difference "people"?

My mistake was that I was not 100 % objective, but please be my guest can anyone of you be objective about technique issues all the time? I think its time for me to start playing again, too much work on computer got me into pointless conversations about who or what is inferior. like it matters to anyone...cheers

NextLevel
03-01-2016, 08:06 PM
You didnt read all of my posts :) if you did you would notice that I analyze some of his strengths as well.

And please guys, its boring and funny when someone talks about "people doing that and that"

I was the only one here that criticized his technique as inferior, Im not "the people" so please have the courage of your opinion my name is TTFrenzy or George whatever you like. Hiding yourself behind words is pathetic, unless you are 10 years old

Table tennis punditry is not easy my friend. But we try to be nice and not name people. That way, people can think they are like Lord Voldemort and we fear them...;)

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 08:12 PM
the main reason the defender won is rather simple: the attacker couldn't read the spin well enough.

now, how good would you say this defender is?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5P3bhjcZw4


i know a very good player who beat both of them a couple of years ago and said that the older gentleman was a more difficult match because his chops were more deceptive.

Well for sure he oursmarted pitchford in the 3 sets that he won. Pitchford underestimated him and didnt vary his tactics, the defender adjusted very well after the first set which he lost rather easily.

Overall I would say he won because of his tactics, his technique especially after the first successful loop is not equal to pitchford's loop. Most of the times pitchford was caught off guard and didnt have a solid position to loop effectively, when he had he also had the initiative and most of the times he won the point. pitchford also lost many points right after his serve a sign that shows that the defender totally grasped how to set liam off guard

izra
03-01-2016, 08:40 PM
Well for sure he oursmarted pitchford in the 3 sets that he won. Pitchford underestimated him and didnt vary his tactics, the defender adjusted very well after the first set which he lost rather easily.

Overall I would say he won because of his tactics, his technique especially after the first successful loop is not equal to pitchford's loop. Most of the times pitchford was caught off guard and didnt have a solid position to loop effectively, when he had he also had the initiative and most of the times he won the point. pitchford also lost many points right after his serve a sign that shows that the defender totally grasped how to set liam off guard

that is not why i posted that video. it was to say that a player who beat both of those defenders found the older gentleman harder to play against only a couple of years ago (okay, up to 10 years ago to be honest). his deception is amazing and you can't see that on video, that's why it's beside the point to reflect on the young attackers mental state or technique as the reasons he lost.

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 08:47 PM
that is not why i posted that video. it was to say that a player who beat both of those defenders found the older gentleman harder to play against only a couple of years ago (okay, up to 10 years ago to be honest). his deception is amazing and you can't see that on video, that's why it's beside the point to reflect on the young attackers mental state or technique as the reasons he lost.


well 10 years isnt a couple of years is it ? :P and certainly the comparison does not mean much because 10 years before the old player maybe was a great player . The young player's mentality was playing its part. he missed several easy balls that he wouldnt have missed if he wasnt so pissed of.

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 08:49 PM
Table tennis punditry is not easy my friend. But we try to be nice and not name people. That way, people can think they are like Lord Voldemort and we fear them...;)


One of the reasons I appreciate you and CArl is that you always refer/name the person you disagree with, providing arguements. It does not matter who is right or wrong but to get into a creative discussion

izra
03-01-2016, 08:58 PM
well 10 years isnt a couple of years is it ? :P and certainly the comparison does not mean much because 10 years before the old player maybe was a great player . The young player's mentality was playing its part. he missed several easy balls that he wouldnt have missed if he wasnt so pissed of.

he was certainly quicker and more consistent than he is now, but the deceptiveness does not go away that easily. dtop made an excellent post comparing the two players. if at 60 he can still beat his 20 year old opponent that just means he is a player of a different class.

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 09:00 PM
he was certainly quicker and more consistent than he is now, but the deceptiveness does not go away that easily. dtop made an excellent post comparing the two players. if at 60 he can still beat his 20 year old opponent that just means he is a player of a different class.

Yes exactly, "people" (hehe:P) misunderstood and thought that I was considering the defender as a whole to be inferior which I didnt. I was commenting solely on technique, he played smarter with more patience and varied the game more so he deserved to win. I never said anything less or anything more than that.

izra
03-01-2016, 09:02 PM
so you're saying that returning those loops with backspin takes a lower level of technique than to produce the loops?

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 09:19 PM
so you're saying that returning those loops with backspin takes a lower level of technique than to produce the loops?


I never said that ... please let us dont get too excited over terminology

the question is not valid but I will answer as precisely as I can. First of all one must define technique and difficulty level. But even then some players will find it "easier" to defende because they have a natural tendency or talent for it and some players find it easier to attack.

So by terms of effort and only effort, to chop an incoming ball needs less effort yes, you have no explosive motion in a chop you just absorb the power with your body and paddle. You borrow your opponent's power and spin against him. Now for the technique issue, there is no right or wrong answer, technique to me is the way you execute the stroke and how effective it is

izra
03-01-2016, 09:39 PM
how you ever tried playing defense TTFrenzy? that young attacker is not a bad player, certainly much better than i am but the level of technique required to beat him by chopping to me is far more impressive.

TTFrenzy
03-01-2016, 10:05 PM
how you ever tried playing defense TTFrenzy? that young attacker is not a bad player, certainly much better than i am but the level of technique required to beat him by chopping to me is far more impressive.


Yes I have, and it was a whole different game to me. Once again its not only the technique that won the game by the defender, I also said that the attacker was good even with superior overall technique, but he lost it mentally.

So what exactly is your question overall? cause you are constantly changing the questions as if I dont know what I said.

I was just commenting on the techniqune only, do i need to draw it or something? not for the serves not for the mentality not for the tactics. Its my opinion that the attacker has better attacking qualities than the defender qualities.

That of course does not mean that he will win the match, he lost it mentally, made some really bad strokes and stupid choices so he lost.

UpSideDownCarl
03-01-2016, 10:24 PM
It is dicey to compare looping technique to chopping technique. Both take technique and technical skill. But the techniques are different.

Talking about the looping technique of someone who is chopping and not looping makes no sense. But I guarantee that the looper's chopping technique is not as good as the chopper's chopping technique.

And, for sure, the technique of the chopper, in his chop stroke is pretty impressive. It is not easy to do that. He is adding spin, taking away spin and giving back spin without adding or taking away. That is stuff that takes a high level of skill.

I am entertained right now imagining what our friend unknown_crazy-person_sj would be saying about aspect ratio, speed glue, RoboNastis....LOL.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

But TTGeorgeFrenzy, why do you think you were the only one who talked about inferior technique. Someone even mentioned inferior surfaces and it wasn't you.

Your comments when you reassessed the play of each player were much more balanced. Even if I think the subject of what people mean by technique may need to be addressed. I think there are a few different definitions floating around out there in this thread for what the word "technique" is being used to mean. And it seems to me that the technique to chop is not being discussed by a few. And it is not easy to skillfully chop a heavy loop: I would say it does take some technique.

Now can we please return to the REAL subject of RoboNastis and which pips out, Penhold World Champion DTop's video was talking about and whether Xu Xin is really planning on switching to banned pips!!!


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Shuki
03-01-2016, 10:57 PM
Huge post that shuki agrees with just about all points except one.

You say twiddlers aren't ultimately much different but what I was considering with twiddlers are people like seemiller. Where they twiddle to set up their shot, without the twiddling and his grip he would no doubt be a great player still. But he would also lost a lot of what his game is about with his anti.

What I struggle with, with exceptional twiddlers is that I don't know where to hit, as the few I've played are actually waiting to use a specific side and going for the reaction twiddle and seem to refuse to use the "junk" rubber against me once they realize I'm more comfortable against that than their faster rubbers.

Also haven't caught up on this entire thread yet so edit's will be made below this line if there's any more discussion about my post.

______________________


Edit:
After reading more about the arguments in who's more skilled between the players and whos style takes more effort I'm ready to put in my input.

Both take an equal amount of effort and skill. Chopping and attacking are both equal.

There are three parts to a player as I see it, we all have these parts, some more than others in different aspects. These parts are the BRAIN, HEART, And Physical part.

Brain has to do with diagnosing your player and exposing their weaknesses, and realizing when to vary certain spins. The chopper was better at this.
Heart has to do with the emotion side and the quick reads on opponents. The in the moment what you feel part.
Physical Has to do with technique and athletic prowis. Who's putting more physical effort into the shots. This side I believe the looper has the more physical ability.

Shuki
03-01-2016, 11:52 PM
done, read my edit.

izra
03-02-2016, 12:18 AM
done, read my edit.

IMO a player that puts in LESS physical effort to achieve the same result is the one with superior technique.

NextLevel
03-02-2016, 12:32 AM
You say twiddlers aren't ultimately much different but what I was considering with twiddlers are people like seemiller. Where they twiddle to set up their shot, without the twiddling and his grip he would no doubt be a great player still. But he would also lost a lot of what his game is about with his anti.

What I struggle with, with exceptional twiddlers is that I don't know where to hit, as the few I've played are actually waiting to use a specific side and going for the reaction twiddle and seem to refuse to use the "junk" rubber against me once they realize I'm more comfortable against that than their faster rubbers.

Also haven't caught up on this entire thread yet so edit's will be made below this line if there's any more discussion about my post.

______________________


Edit:
After reading more about the arguments in who's more skilled between the players and whos style takes more effort I'm ready to put in my input.

Both take an equal amount of effort and skill. Chopping and attacking are both equal.

There are three parts to a player as I see it, we all have these parts, some more than others in different aspects. These parts are the BRAIN, HEART, And Physical part.

Brain has to do with diagnosing your player and exposing their weaknesses, and realizing when to vary certain spins. The chopper was better at this.
Heart has to do with the emotion side and the quick reads on opponents. The in the moment what you feel part.
Physical Has to do with technique and athletic prowis. Who's putting more physical effort into the shots. This side I believe the looper has the more physical ability.

It's not the twiddling but really your inverted level or short pips spin level. Practicing with twiddlers is an antidote as is the random multiball by your coach. If the twiddler is a better player than you with inverted, the problem is not the twiddler but the player's overall level, especially with inverted. The right way to think of Seemiller Snr. is as a TPB penholder with Anti on the BH. If he can beat you with the inverted side, forget the anti side. The anti side is a change up and not his game.

Twiddlers are not "junk rubber users" per se. Earlier, I pointed out that the reasons people use combination rubbers are different. IT should be obvious to you that when you think of a twiddler, the idea that they are using the combination rubber to cover a weakness is not completely true if true at all.

Baal
03-02-2016, 12:44 AM
I think we should have a thread just of videos of players going out of their minds.

Tough to beat this one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNulZ22TWEg

Baal
03-02-2016, 12:57 AM
This.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1aS7CcdlEw&lc=yXlajnFcFFelY3-E0_v5yTo7OKHDaFttXzRzXJkofe8

Baal
03-02-2016, 01:01 AM
Not sure this would be so easy in our sport.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi-CgSO9Evw

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2016, 01:27 AM
I think we should have a thread just of videos of players going out of their minds.

Tough to beat this one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNulZ22TWEg

Man, I've gotta find some video footage of Tahl Leibovitz's antics. He makes this stuff look like calm guys having a walk in the park.

I guess, with some of Tahl's antics though, you have to hear what he is saying too as he is throwing his racket or mooning his opponent. LOL.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Shuki
03-02-2016, 03:59 AM
IMO a player that puts in LESS physical effort to achieve the same result is the one with superior technique.

Interesting, I think I disagree. If we're taking away brain and heart, and then have two players play (of equal level but different styles), you couldn't see a player putting more effort in winning a game but worse technique winning the game?

The two players have reached the same level but one has a blocking game and the other has a Chinese-style looping game. The player putting forth more physical energy would clearly be the chinese-style looper. But does this make the loopers technique worse? Maybe one style just has more favorable matchups and thats why they can put forth less effort to achieve the same level.

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2016, 04:14 AM
The guy looping gets caught with his feet in the wrong place. This is technique. The guy looping misreads the spin and misses. This is technique.

Good technique has to do with efficiency. So often, better technique produces the same power with less effort. Then when that player adds a little more effort, with good mechanics, his shot has more power in it. In table tennis, power could translate as spin or speed or the combination of the two.

To me, the chopper's feet look better. He is in a good position for the ball more often in spite of him playing defense against balls that are almost always faster than his shots. He is 60. He is about 40 years older than the looper and yet he is the one whose feet are in good position. And he is getting that position against faster shots and his opponent is not getting that position against slower shots.

His chop technique is very good. The looper's loop, if he did not have to move is not bad, but once he has to move, he is not adjusting that well to the balls coming at him. And they are not coming at him that fast.

I have a feeling the chopper is a higher level player than the looper. And to me, his technique looks better than the looper's technique.

However, I don't think effort has much to do with technique anyway. But good mechanics and good technique may allow a player to use more effort and waste less of that effort. But good technique has to do with efficiency. Efficiency means that the power you use is translated into the ball and is not wasted effort.

Sometimes FZD hits these crazy over the table BH shots that take very little effort but shoot off his racket like a rocket. That is not much effort, very powerful shot, excellent technique.

Shuki
03-02-2016, 04:58 AM
What are we describing as effort? physical energy exerted? because when I use more effort I don't use more physical energy, I just focus harder.

DoctorPaco
03-02-2016, 06:43 AM
I think we should have a thread just of videos of players going out of their minds.

Tough to beat this one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNulZ22TWEg
Then why not start a different thread of players going batsh*t instead of hijacking this one?
Don't get me wrong, the clips are great. But it would be better and get more views if you started a new thread.

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2016, 07:12 AM
Then why not start a different thread of players going batsh*t instead of hijacking this one?
Don't get me wrong, the clips are great. But it would be better and get more views if you started a new thread.

Wait, isn't the whole discussion in this thread a hijacking? :) LOL. Fun thread though. :)


What are we describing as effort? physical energy exerted? because when I use more effort I don't use more physical energy, I just focus harder.

And Shuki, you are saying the guy whose feet are in the wrong place, who keeps misreading the spin on the ball, who keeps messing up, is the guy who is exerting less physical energy but focusing harder and you are describing THAT, as MORE EFFORT???? And that is BETTER TECHNIQUE???? Sorry, but, I think I forgot to step into the backwards universe. Did I miss something here?

Baal
03-02-2016, 11:13 AM
There were two aspects to the thread actually, starting with the first video.

The first was that this poor young guy was completely unable to cope with what the old chopper was throwing at him for a variety of reasons (which including bad timing, lazy footwork contributing to his mistiming, didn't see that the older guy was varying the spin quite a great deal, never attempted to attack the choppers body, failed to realize that this particular defender never attacks so was extremely impatient tactically, to name just a few things). I can see those mistakes, not because I'm some sort of super high-level player, but because I've made all of them against choppers who are better than they first appear and who are very good at extreme spin variation. I can't know for sure without knowing the players or talking to them, but my impression watching this is that the young guy completely underestimated the level of the older guy, who like I said earlier, probably beats guys like this all the time. It is very possible that he was throwing some of those chops kind of high to bait this young guy who does have a bunch of technical limitations like just about anyone who is not a professional player. (There are two coaches in my city who are high-level defenders, I have played with them both quite a bit, one for many years, so I have seen many times firsthand how things aren't always what they appear. Nobody would underestimate those two coaches in my city, but then again, they are both about 30, instead of older, and young people almost always underestimate older players).

The second was the fact that the young guy went completely out of his mind because of the frustration which is the thing that probably led the OP to post the video. I know what that feels like too. It can be pretty hilarious --- when it happens to somebody else. It seems like both of these things were worth talking about, so I don't think I hijacked the thread by showing it happening in professional players too.

Getting really mad never helps you play better. Finding zen in matches is more important for me personally than any technical thing.

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2016, 11:47 AM
It seems like both of these things were worth talking about, so I don't think I hijacked the thread by showing it happening in professional players too.

Getting really mad never helps you play better. Finding zen in matches is more important for me personally than any technical thing.

And given the title of the thread, I would say, the discussion on technique and defender vs looper was not the intended subject matter but, "Croatian player loses his sh#t" actually was the intended subject matter. :)

So, what Baal did was closer to unhijacking the thread than to hijacking it. And it wasn't a bad change of directions from what could be an endless and pointless discussion on who has better technique.

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 12:23 PM
It is dicey to compare looping technique to chopping technique. Both take technique and technical skill. But the techniques are different.

Talking about the looping technique of someone who is chopping and not looping makes no sense. But I guarantee that the looper's chopping technique is not as good as the chopper's chopping technique.

And, for sure, the technique of the chopper, in his chop stroke is pretty impressive. It is not easy to do that. He is adding spin, taking away spin and giving back spin without adding or taking away. That is stuff that takes a high level of skill.

I am entertained right now imagining what our friend unknown_crazy-person_sj would be saying about aspect ratio, speed glue, RoboNastis....LOL.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

But TTGeorgeFrenzy, why do you think you were the only one who talked about inferior technique. Someone even mentioned inferior surfaces and it wasn't you.

Your comments when you reassessed the play of each player were much more balanced. Even if I think the subject of what people mean by technique may need to be addressed. I think there are a few different definitions floating around out there in this thread for what the word "technique" is being used to mean. And it seems to me that the technique to chop is not being discussed by a few. And it is not easy to skillfully chop a heavy loop: I would say it does take some technique.

Now can we please return to the REAL subject of RoboNastis and which pips out, Penhold World Champion DTop's video was talking about and whether Xu Xin is really planning on switching to banned pips!!!


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Thanks Carl, what exactly do you mean by inferior surfaces? :S Dont quite understand that. Im afraid Im not accurate enough when Im expressing myself in English or maybe people see what they want to see. I never said that the defender has bad or poor technique.

As I explained to nextlevel, I like to think myself as a scholar coach and optimal technique with minimum effort is always something I focus on. So the first thing I noticed in the match was that the attacker's quality of loop was better than the defenders chop quality. BUT, the defender understood the game better and his personality is suiting better to play TT.

I didnt degrade or belittle him , I didnt said that pips should be banned, nor did I think that the attacker is in fact better im not a kind of racist towards pips rofl, people all over the post answer to me like I hate pips players its hilarious :D

To sum it up, when Im not in a balanced psychological mood or dont have the patience and relaxed state of mind needed to play against pips I really hate it but this does not mean that I dont appreciate the value of players like these.

Gee just reading to what i have just written makes me feel awkward. maybe I should i apologize next time for expressing myself lol :P

Shuki
03-02-2016, 12:57 PM
And Shuki, you are saying the guy whose feet are in the wrong place, who keeps misreading the spin on the ball, who keeps messing up, is the guy who is exerting less physical energy but focusing harder and you are describing THAT, as MORE EFFORT???? And that is BETTER TECHNIQUE???? Sorry, but, I think I forgot to step into the backwards universe. Did I miss something here?

I think I switched which side of the debate I was on a couple times :)

Baal
03-02-2016, 01:13 PM
One thing for sure, very few people are born with the instincts and skills to play against a style they almost never see. Looking at the video of the first post, my guess is that is part of what is going on. When that happens to almost anyone, technical and mental flaws are systematically exposed. And for anyone less than professional level, there are going to be a lot of them.

I've been there.

The only thing I might have going for me is I actually play against that style from time to time.

izra
03-02-2016, 01:30 PM
...So the first thing I noticed in the match was that the attacker's quality of loop was better than the defenders chop quality...

how did you get this impression?

Shuki
03-02-2016, 01:36 PM
I found where I switched sides. I knew I disagreed with ttfrenzy when he said this:


So when I say the attacker is better in terms of technique I still believe it , but technique alone does not win the games does it ?


Then Izra had the rational response of this:



IMO a player that puts in LESS physical effort to achieve the same result is the one with superior technique.


But i thought it was ttFrenzy's response, not izra. And knowing I disagreed frenzy's side got me confused
=[

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 01:39 PM
how did you get this impression?


dude its not even funny

Shuki
03-02-2016, 01:42 PM
dude its not even funny

I'm curious too. what makes his quality of chop not as good as the quality of loop?

Quality of a shot isn't just how low or spinny the ball is. It has to do with placement and VARIATION in the spin. I see the chopper doing better placement and more variation with his spin. So I'd like to know how the looper has a better quality loop than the choppers quality of chop too..

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2016, 01:51 PM
Thanks Carl, what exactly do you mean by inferior surfaces? :S Dont quite understand that. Im afraid Im not accurate enough when Im expressing myself in English or maybe people see what they want to see. I never said that the defender has bad or poor technique.

As I explained to nextlevel, I like to think myself as a scholar coach and optimal technique with minimum effort is always something I focus on. So the first thing I noticed in the match was that the attacker's quality of loop was better than the defenders chop quality. BUT, the defender understood the game better and his personality is suiting better to play TT.

I didnt degrade or belittle him , I didnt said that pips should be banned, nor did I think that the attacker is in fact better im not a kind of racist towards pips rofl, people all over the post answer to me like I hate pips players its hilarious :D

To sum it up, when Im not in a balanced psychological mood or dont have the patience and relaxed state of mind needed to play against pips I really hate it but this does not mean that I dont appreciate the value of players like these.

Gee just reading to what i have just written makes me feel awkward. maybe I should i apologize next time for expressing myself lol :P

See, I think part of what is going on here has to do with a language barrier.

1) NOBODY SAID YOU SAID anything about the term "inferior surface". In fact, if you read what I said, I explicitly stated that you were not the only person saying the chopper was the worse player. I stand by that. And I referred to someone who specifically stated that PIPS ARE AN "INFERIOR SURFACE". Since you did not say that, I MUST BE REFERRING TO SOMEONE ELSE. But on this subject, one thing I would say TTFrenzy, is that, you seem to think everyone is talking to you. Some maybe. But others may have been referring to what someone else said. :) Again SOMEONE ELSE did in fact refer to pips as an inferior surface and I was clear that it was not you. That was the purpose of that part of my post. That the people responding to people saying the looper had better technique were NOT ONLY RESPONDING TO THINGS YOU SAID. Okay. So, no more narcism. When someone says something you have to try and figure out if they meant you or someone else rather than being defensive. You are a good guy.

2) I don't think anyone said you belittled him. I could be wrong, but I don't see that. But someone did say pips were an inferior surface and that is a bit of a dis. So, it could be that.

3) But I do think a good answer to Izra's question would be interesting.

--You said: "So the first thing I noticed in the match was that the attacker's quality of loop was better than the defenders chop quality."

--And Izra asked: "how did you get this impression?"

I would have like to hear the answer to that. Because, to my eyes, it is clear that the opposite is actually the case. It is not just the chopper's understanding of the game is better. Despite his age and the restrictions in mobility that often occur for someone of that age, his chopping technique, to me at least, looks higher level than the looper's technique. I could be wrong. But that is how it looks to me.

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 02:35 PM
lol carl no need for caps lock, i wasnt reffering to you either about what I thought that people thought that I said :P

ok I just read what i wrote and its hilarious

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 02:39 PM
I'm curious too. what makes his quality of chop not as good as the quality of loop?

Quality of a shot isn't just how low or spinny the ball is. It has to do with placement and VARIATION in the spin. I see the chopper doing better placement and more variation with his spin. So I'd like to know how the looper has a better quality loop than the choppers quality of chop too..

What i meant was produced arc/spin of the looper is bigger than produced arc/spin of the chopper, especially when he choped with the FH side with inverted as I mentioned earlier. I corrected my self about the bh chop

placement for me is considered more as a strategy/tactic feature although it is connected to technique of course at some extent.

dont get excited over terminology, u understand different things for the words quality than me , and thats ok but dont judge the post with your criteria :P

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2016, 02:41 PM
lol carl no need for caps lock, i wasnt reffering to you either about what I thought that people thought that I said :P

ok I just read what i wrote and its hilarious

Aw man, I like caps. They are fun. In fact I sometimes LOVE caps. :)

Shuki
03-02-2016, 02:46 PM
What i meant was produced arc/spin of the looper is bigger than produced arc/spin of the chopper, especially when he choped with the FH side with inverted as I mentioned earlier. I corrected my self about the bh chop

placement for me is considered more as a strategy/tactic feature although it is connected to technique of course at some extent.

dont get excited over terminology, u understand different things for the words quality than me , and thats ok but dont judge the post with your criteria :P

If you're perceiving from the video that the looper has more spin that's fine. But he also has less control of his loops than the chopper has on his chops. I'm trying to understand your definition of quality opposed to my criteria. Surely the looper's quality of loop can't be better quality if he can't hit the table with it

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 03:52 PM
If you're perceiving from the video that the looper has more spin that's fine. But he also has less control of his loops than the chopper has on his chops. I'm trying to understand your definition of quality opposed to my criteria. Surely the looper's quality of loop can't be better quality if he can't hit the table with it

yes but im separating the technique from psychology to understand it better. if a player is in a bad day this does not mean his technique is crappy or low level. It is directly affected by psychology and the attacker has totally lost his composure and mindset. When you are anxious or nervous or pissed of your muscles get tense and you dont move freely.

The attacker, either misread the spin or he was too eager too attack every ball instead of waiting for the right ball to do it

Shuki
03-02-2016, 04:05 PM
yes but im separating the technique from psychology to understand it better. if a player is in a bad day this does not mean his technique is crappy or low level

Nobody is saying the attacker has bad technique or is low level. Just that the chopper's is better from the video clip we've been given.

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 04:33 PM
Nobody is saying the attacker has bad technique or is low level. Just that the chopper's is better from the video clip we've been given.


aaaand I totally agree with that ! :P didnt said otherwise, it was hilarious how his mustache was laughing at the other guy at certain lucky points

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2016, 04:44 PM
I actually think some of the chopper's chops look like they have more spin than the loops, some of them look dead. Now creating a dead chop off of a fairly heavy loop requires a lot of technique.

If you are looping back a chop that is heavy it requires decent technique too. But, if you are actually looping back a chop and not doing the SLAPADELIC, you are going to get a lot of spin.

The interesting part to me is the chopper's skill at varying the spin.

But I still say I have not heard why TTFrenzy has decided the looper's looping technique is higher level than the chopper's chopping technique. Or if I had, it seems to me not to fit.

Certainly they are not too far from each other in level. And certainly the looper is pretty decent. But I am still pretty impressed with the skills of that 60 year old guy. [emoji2]

uh-oh....the goon squad is chasing me again. Gotta run.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 04:54 PM
Carl, I dont have the patience to record each and every point to backup my claims :P, truth is there are few points when the attacker performs good loops up to his standards, most of the points are unforced errors cause he is pissed or he is misjudging the situation (spin/placement of the chop)

Technique is how you perform a stroke , understanding and adjusting is another different thing. I played a very tall player once who his introduced to me by a friend as a "newbie" guy.

His backhand and serves although he played 5 months was out of this world the guy was simply gifted with natural feeling for the ball, I have never seen such a bh stroke & spin on serves even from top players in Greece.

But when it came to understanding what he is doing well, i dont need to say more

UpSideDownCarl
03-02-2016, 04:58 PM
aaaand I totally agree with that ! :P didnt said otherwise, it was hilarious how his mustache was laughing at the other guy at certain lucky points

Well, you actually sort of did. But, all good. This changes things.

My previous post was a parallel post to yours.

Looper = good

This day chopper = better.

Now I better get back to the secret hideout and see if I can trap that goon squad. I have the sample of lemonade for the manner in which Der_Echte has told me to take care of them this time.

RoboNastis and Spinless Cowboys, Untie, I mean, Unite!


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 05:01 PM
I said that the attacker would win easily if he wasnt so pissed if i remember correctly haha [^_-]

izra
03-02-2016, 07:44 PM
how can an arc be the criteria to judge a loop and a chop when balls with top spin naturally have a pronounced arc and balls with backspin naturally don't?

Shuki
03-02-2016, 07:58 PM
how can an arc be the criteria to judge a loop and a chop when balls with top spin naturally have a pronounced arc and balls with backspin naturally don't?

woah woah woah, because he has a different definition of quality. I saw this too but thought it must have been a language gap because surely he knows chops would arc less if there's more spin.

Shuki
03-02-2016, 07:59 PM
I said that the attacker would win easily if he wasnt so pissed if i remember correctly haha [^_-]
Ever think maybe he got pissed because he couldn't win?

El Guiri
03-02-2016, 08:07 PM
I think is human to get upsett . The most dificult think to leatn in a game is be relax and confidente . Maybe this uy is not use to this kind of game !!!

En probably had a bad day

For sur he know how to deal with it but maybe this day was not posible to put it in practis because we dont play every day the sane way !!!
At list for me is like this


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

El Guiri
03-02-2016, 08:09 PM
This sensation when you know how to do it because you practise a lot and put it durimg the training but not in the rel game is very frustating

Sorry for my english


Enviado desde mi iPhone utilizando Tapatalk

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 09:04 PM
Ever think maybe he got pissed because he couldn't win?

?op his body language is clear that he strongly believes the shot he missed was easy. Also some of his gestures show that he totally misjudges the spin/situation or probably he thinks that he is better than he really is, no matter what all of these result in his frustration

izra
03-02-2016, 09:30 PM
aaaand I totally agree with that ! :P didnt said otherwise, it was hilarious how his mustache was laughing at the other guy at certain lucky points

epic mustache smile on 3:55 mark:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoBKpAVm6PM

:D

Shuki
03-02-2016, 09:33 PM
?op his body language is clear that he strongly believes the shot he missed was easy. Also some of his gestures show that he totally misjudges the spin/situation or probably he thinks that he is better than he really is, no matter what all of these result in his frustration

Ahhh I understand now! If a player is frustrated then they think the shot should have been easy for them! gotcha!:cool:

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 10:24 PM
how can an arc be the criteria to judge a loop and a chop when balls with top spin naturally have a pronounced arc and balls with backspin naturally don't?


back spin balls have steeper arcs but they are also arcs ...

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 10:25 PM
Ahhh I understand now! If a player is frustrated then they think the shot should have been easy for them! gotcha!:cool:


your ability to misinterpret is hilarious :D

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 10:27 PM
This sensation when you know how to do it because you practise a lot and put it durimg the training but not in the rel game is very frustating

Sorry for my english



Enviado desde mi utilizando Tapatalk

thats probably one of the reasons also. maybe the attacker has practiced alot VS choppers/pimple drills and didnt expect his ass to be kicked like that :P

izra
03-02-2016, 10:29 PM
back spin balls have steeper arcs but they are also arcs ...

i see... i have to say i find your criteria to compare these two different shots rather peculiar.

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 10:35 PM
i see... i have to say i find your criteria to compare these two different shots rather peculiar.

Well I cant say for myself If im peculiar or not but, I think his BH chop has definitely more steep arc than his FH chop which is more curvy and high thus making easier to attack, regardless if the attacker missed or not

Shuki
03-02-2016, 10:37 PM
your ability to misinterpret is hilarious :D

If you say so :). What would it take for you to believe the chopper has better technique?

TTFrenzy
03-02-2016, 10:54 PM
If you say so :). What would it take for you to believe the chopper has better technique?

see him winning because of it :D , he won via his placement and patience, not superior technique :P

izra
03-02-2016, 11:00 PM
see him winning because of it :D , he won via his placement and patience, not superior technique :P

so something like a controlled match where both of them are only allowed to place the ball to the exact same place? but then if the defender won you could say that the attacker had superior technique and that the defender only won because he mixed up the spin deceptively. or maybe a sure thing would be a scenario where the attacker tries to loop the chop and continually fails to get it over the net ultimately falling to his knees and giving up? :D

Shuki
03-02-2016, 11:14 PM
see him winning because of it :D , he won via his placement and patience, not superior technique :P

Gotcha, so you're just going to argue your point forever no matter what point someone brings up, regardless of how much sense that point makes.

Because the only way you'll change your mind according to what you just wrote, is to see them play a game with no variation and the chopper still winning.

ttmonster
03-02-2016, 11:28 PM
The only thing this thread has done is after seeing the video a lot of forum members have ultimately gotten angry and lost their s#it . I wish the player in the video would have gotten really beserk and done amusing things . That would have helped prevent the thread hijack :P . And for god's sake TTFrenzy , the chopper definitely has a better technique , anybody who does not understand that popped up balls are not always put away balls is definitely not there in terms technique. Just because someones form looks better does not mean its good technique ... table tennis is about spin and its understanding not ballet or tai-chi :)

DTopSpirit
03-03-2016, 03:34 AM
Kind of makes you glad that in table tennis you only win a point by hitting the ball onto the table one more time than your opponent, instead of having judging for technique like ice skating or diving, doesn't it?

The beauty of the technique is less important than the effectiveness and consistency of the technique.

On a slight tangent, I can't remember how often I've "lost the warm up" to an opponent who looks like a million dollars in those two minutes compared to my own not quite standard technique, and who hits the ball past me in the warm up with terrific pace and spin, only to find that once the match starts he falls apart when I start chopping, twiddling and deceiving.

Strange but true!

ttmonster
03-03-2016, 03:46 AM
I can vouch for your assertion , yours truly have been on both sides of the coin :P

Kind of makes you glad that in table tennis you only win a point by hitting the ball onto the table one more time than your opponent, instead of having judging for technique like ice skating or diving, doesn't it?

The beauty of the technique is less important than the effectiveness and consistency of the technique.

On a slight tangent, I can't remember how often I've "lost the warm up" to an opponent who looks like a million dollars in those two minutes compared to my own not quite standard technique, and who hits the ball past me in the warm up with terrific pace and spin, only to find that once the match starts he falls apart when I start chopping, twiddling and deceiving.

Strange but true!

TTFrenzy
03-03-2016, 05:37 AM
The only thing this thread has done is after seeing the video a lot of forum members have ultimately gotten angry and lost their s#it . I wish the player in the video would have gotten really beserk and done amusing things . That would have helped prevent the thread hijack :P . And for god's sake TTFrenzy , the chopper definitely has a better technique , anybody who does not understand that popped up balls are not always put away balls is definitely not there in terms technique. Just because someones form looks better does not mean its good technique ... table tennis is about spin and its understanding not ballet or tai-chi :)


well I just like the other guys you are putting words in my mouth that i didnt said

TTFrenzy
03-03-2016, 05:40 AM
Gotcha, so you're just going to argue your point forever no matter what point someone brings up, regardless of how much sense that point makes.

Because the only way you'll change your mind according to what you just wrote, is to see them play a game with no variation and the chopper still winning.

nop thats not what I said or meant, come on now ur not stupid. I didnt meant that they should play a game with the exact same placement.

u guys didnt like my comment about his technique and thats ok :) it has nothing to do with perception,personal taste or being objective.

You know shuki, I could troll you like you do forever and ever, that does not mean ur arguements or mine are valid

ttmonster
03-03-2016, 05:50 AM
My apologies , I definitely did not want to put anything in your mouth , its considered very unhygienic in certain cultures and I strictly believe , "you should not do anything to anybody that you don't want anybody else to do to you" .. just trying to ramp up the "Lost in Translation" bit in this hijacked thread ... will it work ? lets see ... :P

well I just like the other guys you are putting words in my mouth that i didnt said

Archosaurus
03-03-2016, 06:21 AM
If you can make a quality shot look like a rubbish shot, your technique is good.


Or does no on here understand the concept of hiding slightly high no-spin serves as backspin to get a pop up or straight up flick miss off the end? What about a very high, very dropping no-spin loop that looks like a high topspin loop to get them to put it into the net?

TTFrenzy
03-03-2016, 07:56 AM
My apologies , I definitely did not want to put anything in your mouth , its considered very unhygienic in certain cultures and I strictly believe , "you should not do anything to anybody that you don't want anybody else to do to you" .. just trying to ramp up the "Lost in Translation" bit in this hijacked thread ... will it work ? lets see ... :P

No hard feelings my friend, the whole situation is either i got misunderstood or I dont accurately express my view on technique in english. but i cannot show you via forum what I mean by quality loops/chops can I ?

I have a friend with very good chops top 80-120 ranked in Greece and he gets to my nerves everytime, because he can get the ball back no matter how good I loop, maybe I should post more videos to clarify what Im saying :D

ttmonster
03-03-2016, 01:09 PM
That would be a good idea , but then I would say let the sleeping dogs lie , shall we ? :)

No hard feelings my friend, the whole situation is either i got misunderstood or I dont accurately express my view on technique in english. but i cannot show you via forum what I mean by quality loops/chops can I ?

I have a friend with very good chops top 80-120 ranked in Greece and he gets to my nerves everytime, because he can get the ball back no matter how good I loop, maybe I should post more videos to clarify what Im saying :D

Shuki
03-03-2016, 01:10 PM
nop thats not what I said or meant, come on now ur not stupid. I didnt meant that they should play a game with the exact same placement.


It is what you said, maybe not what you meant. What did you mean then when you said the only way you would change your mind is if he won without using placement.





You know shuki, I could troll you like you do forever and ever

ha.

ttmonster
03-03-2016, 01:15 PM
Shuki, don't stoke the fire from mount olympus any more man, I can totally understand your feeling but thats okay. Have you seen the great matches from world championships ? Just now Li Jie with a very bad technique gave Ding Ning with a very good technique a lot of trouble for some bewildering reasons , I am still confounded :) I bet the highlights will be up in not time for you all to see ...

It is what you said, maybe not what you meant. What did you mean then when you said the only way you would change your mind is if he won without using placement.



ha.

TTFrenzy
03-03-2016, 01:39 PM
It is what you said, maybe not what you meant. What did you mean then when you said the only way you would change your mind is if he won without using placement.



ha.

whatever dude.

TTFrenzy
03-03-2016, 01:42 PM
Shuki, don't stoke the fire from mount olympus any more man, I can totally understand your feeling but thats okay. Have you seen the great matches from world championships ? Just now Li Jie with a very bad technique gave Ding Ning with a very good technique a lot of trouble for some bewildering reasons , I am still confounded :) I bet the highlights will be up in not time for you all to see ...


let me guess TTfrenzy also claimed tha li jie had bad technique like he did in this post :D maybe we should spot the difference between those phrases

1. player A has better attacking qiualities than the player B defender qualities

2. player B defender has bad defending qualities


Check the post again , read carefully and then you can make jokes about it :D

TTFrenzy
03-03-2016, 01:44 PM
p.s. im responsible of what I said, not what you understood

p.s.2 I admint I was a little too solid on my critique, but when I watched the video from the defenders point of view I provided accurately additional information so...maybe your technique of interpreting is worse than my technique of explaining o_O

hahhahahahaha, we could go for months if u like its fascinating !! :P

Tembel
03-03-2016, 02:06 PM
No hard feelings my friend, the whole situation is either i got misunderstood or I dont accurately express my view on technique in english. but i cannot show you via forum what I mean by quality loops/chops can I ?

I have a friend with very good chops top 80-120 ranked in Greece and he gets to my nerves everytime, because he can get the ball back no matter how good I loop, maybe I should post more videos to clarify what Im saying :D

I don't really think there is any misunderstanding here. Most people here clearly think that the shots that the "old" man pulls off take far more skill/technique than the looping done by the younger player. Yes, the young guy has a nice modern looping technique, but that doesn't mean it is better.

TTFrenzy
03-03-2016, 09:48 PM
I don't really think there is any misunderstanding here. Most people here clearly think that the shots that the "old" man pulls off take far more skill/technique than the looping done by the younger player. Yes, the young guy has a nice modern looping technique, but that doesn't mean it is better.


well it appears that shuki ttmonster and one other guy who critiqued my understanding of technique as "sad" are not most people O_O. Numbers and generalizations like "most people" can easily lead to misleading conclusions :P

Shuki
03-03-2016, 11:20 PM
Can't believe how much time I put into arguing on this thread. You, TTFrenzy, are a champion best of luck with future endeavours. I'm leaving this one.

TTFrenzy
03-03-2016, 11:43 PM
Can't believe how much time I put into arguing on this thread. You, TTFrenzy, are a champion best of luck with future endeavours. I'm leaving this one.


I was also skeptic about this debate. Its kinda hilarious how much time we spent arguiing. time to start playing again ! :D

ttmonster
03-03-2016, 11:55 PM
TTFrenzy, you are wrong , I have a room full of people , we do a WAR room on every thread and take a democratic decision I just write the synopsis of our discussion as a consensus here
well it appears that shuki ttmonster and one other guy who critiqued my understanding of technique as "sad" are not most people O_O. Numbers and generalizations like "most people" can easily lead to misleading conclusions :P

TTFrenzy
03-04-2016, 12:23 AM
there is no right or wrong in my book ;D. anyway seriously, time to stop. cheers

ttmonster
03-04-2016, 02:24 AM
Thats a dissapointment ! I was just getting started !! Anyways , good luck !

there is no right or wrong in my book ;D. anyway seriously, time to stop. cheers