PDA

View Full Version : Any Service Advice for Me?



NextLevel
03-16-2016, 04:43 PM
I am trying to improve my forehand serves. I have only been seriously doing forehand pendulum and reverse pendulum serves for about a year and a half now. I think I finally have the right technique, but wanted to know if anyone had any suggestions. Thanks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEFciHqie9o


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfFRyLvlB_8

ttmonster
03-16-2016, 05:37 PM
Great serves NextLevel ! , the only thing I could say is to vary the placement and the length of the serves in practice . Especially , practice half long and long serve that bounce on the white line

Archosaurus
03-16-2016, 05:46 PM
The spin is good enough and I can't see any big inefficiencies in the technique either.

Only thing I can really comment is to add a feint movement, faking topspin for example, because it's quite obvious what spin is on the ball before the bounce on my side. Change the angle slightly, sometimes more sometimes less. Pull the racket slightly up instead of backwards when serving backspin. Push the racket down when serving no spin etc.

It's not some magic trick, and it'll only really work on people who don't pay attention or if your motion and actual produced spin is very tricky, but it's better than giving up your serve spin entirely.

ajtatosmano2
03-16-2016, 06:08 PM
Nice serves! I don't know how good are your opponents but mine usually loop the longer balls (which doesn't bounce twice) so you could practice to keep short the pendulum serves (like in ghost serves). You are very good in hide before-touch movement, so try to do more varied spin serves!

NextLevel
03-16-2016, 07:37 PM
Thanks, guys. I am varying between backspin and topspin in the video. Is it obvious?

Archosaurus
03-16-2016, 10:10 PM
Thanks, guys. I am varying between backspin and topspin in the video. Is it obvious?
The ball's path and velocity after the bounce on your opponents side gives more information than your racket motion, so it's not that your racket motion is a terrible telegraphed move or anything. It's small and fast enough to not be a dead giveaway, and you DO perform feinting motions which have you second guessing.

Although most of the time, the racket motion corresponds with what spin appears to be on the ball. Your serves are still good enough that you can't be any sure until the bounce and then you're a bit tight on time to respond to the ball accordingly.

So what I said is not really a critical problem, because I don't think people at amateur level can be 100% sure of the spin before contact with their side.

If you really want to screw some people up, serve as you do, but sometimes do a more exaggerated feint, to keep them on their toes even more. ;)

The quality of your serves are good, though. I see Brett's coaching has been of use.

Also, your backspin serves are routinely higher than your topspin serves. Now, if you do that deliberately, you could trick a player into thinking you served backspin when you really served topspin.

Shiro
03-16-2016, 10:15 PM
Your serves are great, but you had the same problem as me before. Some of your serves seem to be a bit long. In addition, when you toss your ball, its not as high, like me. When serving, if you want to serve a short ball, normally you hit the ball when its higher in the air. If you want a longer serve, you contact the ball at a lower stage in the height when the ball is dropping.

Shuki
03-16-2016, 10:30 PM
Do you do more pendulum serves in games, or do you ever switch to backhand serves? For me when I do a pendulum(ish) serve, I start with my right foot behind me, toss the ball, and then turn my body and move my right foot forward at the same time as I make contact with the ball.

This gets me in position right away so if my serve is returned quickly (which it often is since I do a lot of nothing ball serves when I'm feeling lazy), I can then be ready for their quick return. For backhand serves you're already in position, just need to get in a ready stance.

NextLevel
03-16-2016, 11:25 PM
Your serves are great, but you had the same problem as me before. Some of your serves seem to be a bit long. In addition, when you toss your ball, its not as high, like me. When serving, if you want to serve a short ball, normally you hit the ball when its higher in the air. If you want a longer serve, you contact the ball at a lower stage in the height when the ball is dropping.

Thanks. I am trying to serve short and fast and this makes the risk of going long a bit higher. I do have a high toss serve, but it is for my backspin/no spin combo - my pendulum and reverse pendulum tosses are not high. I try to make my first bounce and my contact height on my short and long serves as similar as possible. I do contact higher when trying to serve very short, but I don't do that here.

NextLevel
03-16-2016, 11:28 PM
Do you do more pendulum serves in games, or do you ever switch to backhand serves? For me when I do a pendulum(ish) serve, I start with my right foot behind me, toss the ball, and then turn my body and move my right foot forward at the same time as I make contact with the ball.

This gets me in position right away so if my serve is returned quickly (which it often is since I do a lot of nothing ball serves when I'm feeling lazy), I can then be ready for their quick return. For backhand serves you're already in position, just need to get in a ready stance.

I serve more backhand and backspin - no spin. The forehand serves are more recent. Basically, I just look for a serve that my opponent is struggling with. The backhand serves I prefer for the reason you gave about recovery because I had no footwork and no forehand. Since I have the semblance of a forehand now, I have more balance.

ajtatosmano2
03-18-2016, 09:06 PM
Short servs don't have to be fast. If you serve a spiny short ball a lot of players' reaction a slow push. And the slow push on a spinny ball often ends in the net. And who can flick short spiny balls usually won't use a fast flick on a slow ball, and you can attack the weaker opening flick.

Der_Echte
03-19-2016, 02:41 PM
When I saw this thread, my first thought was to say "Look at my post in "solo Drills" thread... however, you are already at a level where you got this impact down pretty well. The drill I suggested will still be useful to help the tough even moar, but you require a more advanced level of tips.

Should I get Carl, BOTH the Goon Squads, and the NSA spy phone recorder in the same room at the same time as long as it isn't a detention facility?

For the public record and for TT froum memebrs who are new and haven't seen Next level over the past few years, next Level is not afraid to show a weakness and discover/uncover root causes in a pubic viewable manner and work on them. His Star trek captain's log of his approaches are a public record worthy of study and the attitude he uses could be useful to many adult TT learners.

SilentRain
03-19-2016, 03:54 PM
Overall not bad but since you want advice i might as well be harsh.

Normal pendulum:
I'm not sure of your opponents' level but unfortunately this level of serving is not sufficient at my club. Your fast long serve is not bad but could be improved by making it faster. Try adding more forward momentum and speed using your waist as you mostly use your arm and wrist. Also aim to have the ball bounce near the edge of your table instead of the middle as the ball will kick and fly to your opponents side if you hit near the edge of your side.

Your short serves could be improved by adding more spin. I personally find the spin slightly lacking and it seems to stay on the table due to a lack of forward momentum which makes it open for flicks. Thats why when you add a little bit more power, your shots goes to the middle and does not bounce twice (not a long serve which is excusable). Most of the spins are also quite pure (such as pure side or pure back with insignificant amount of other types of spin). This makes it easy to return serves so if you're doing top/side or back/side, try and balance the spins more as its more difficult to return the ball this way

This is up to personal preference but I also think you serve too close to your body. Maybe thats why you dont have alot of power/speed and spin on your serves as your mind will subconciously withhold the full swing of your serve to avoid hitting your body. Its also probably why your blade angle is quite close (60-75 degrees maybe?). Having a more open (horizontal) racket angle will allow you to impart more spin with less forward momentum compared to your current technique. Thus your serves can be shorter yet more powerful and spinny at the same time. You can still impart sidespin with an open racket angle if you can brush and contact the ball well but this requires practice.

Finally some your serves bounces quite high. I think this is because you take the ball quite high when you serve. Your body stance is also quite high. Most people and professionals will adopt a low stance (hunching/bending feet slightly) which makes it easier to contact the ball closer to net height without making a service error but this is not compulsory (Example: Samsonov). Hitting the ball closer to net height makes the ball bounce lower and harder to flick

Reverse pendulum:
This is very good. Only thing I can add is to make it less obvious that your going to perform a reverse pendulum. In your FH pendulum you add extra movements to confuse your opponent as to what serves your doing. Try actually implementing (if you haven't) the reverse pendulum into this to disguise your serve. Also try to aim for 2 bounce or 1 bounce. Usually when the ball bounces 3 or more times, there are strong indicators that it will be short so your opponent already instinctly eliminate certain things he should do when he attempts to receive it (such as looping if its going to be short). By having 2 or 1 bounce, your opponents will keep guessing which adds mental work load and increases the probability of them making a bad return.

Conclusion
Overall quite good. Your reverse pendulum is good but your fh pendulum requires some work. You're at the point where you just need to keep practicing to maximise the amount of spin/speed/ power while maintaining a low bounce and making it short/long. This requires finnese and is only obtainable trough practice.

NextLevel
03-19-2016, 05:19 PM
Overall not bad but since you want advice i might as well be harsh.

Normal pendulum:
I'm not sure of your opponents' level but unfortunately this level of serving is not sufficient at my club. Your fast long serve is not bad but could be improved by making it faster. Try adding more forward momentum and speed using your waist as you mostly use your arm and wrist. Also aim to have the ball bounce near the edge of your table instead of the middle as the ball will kick and fly to your opponents side if you hit near the edge of your side.

Your short serves could be improved by adding more spin. I personally find the spin slightly lacking and it seems to stay on the table due to a lack of forward momentum which makes it open for flicks. Thats why when you add a little bit more power, your shots goes to the middle and does not bounce twice (not a long serve which is excusable). Most of the spins are also quite pure (such as pure side or pure back with insignificant amount of other types of spin). This makes it easy to return serves so if you're doing top/side or back/side, try and balance the spins more as its more difficult to return the ball this way

This is up to personal preference but I also think you serve too close to your body. Maybe thats why you dont have alot of power/speed and spin on your serves as your mind will subconciously withhold the full swing of your serve to avoid hitting your body. Its also probably why your blade angle is quite close (60-75 degrees maybe?). Having a more open (horizontal) racket angle will allow you to impart more spin with less forward momentum compared to your current technique. Thus your serves can be shorter yet more powerful and spinny at the same time. You can still impart sidespin with an open racket angle if you can brush and contact the ball well but this requires practice.

Finally some your serves bounces quite high. I think this is because you take the ball quite high when you serve. Your body stance is also quite high. Most people and professionals will adopt a low stance (hunching/bending feet slightly) which makes it easier to contact the ball closer to net height without making a service error but this is not compulsory (Example: Samsonov). Hitting the ball closer to net height makes the ball bounce lower and harder to flick

Reverse pendulum:
This is very good. Only thing I can add is to make it less obvious that your going to perform a reverse pendulum. In your FH pendulum you add extra movements to confuse your opponent as to what serves your doing. Try actually implementing (if you haven't) the reverse pendulum into this to disguise your serve. Also try to aim for 2 bounce or 1 bounce. Usually when the ball bounces 3 or more times, there are strong indicators that it will be short so your opponent already instinctly eliminate certain things he should do when he attempts to receive it (such as looping if its going to be short). By having 2 or 1 bounce, your opponents will keep guessing which adds mental work load and increases the probability of them making a bad return.

Conclusion
Overall quite good. Your reverse pendulum is good but your fh pendulum requires some work. You're at the point where you just need to keep practicing to maximise the amount of spin/speed/ power while maintaining a low bounce and making it short/long. This requires finnese and is only obtainable trough practice.

Thanks - none of the serves were designed to be fast and long. They were all designed to be short, but as fast and spinny as I can execute with double bounce length.

NextLevel
03-19-2016, 05:34 PM
Short servs don't have to be fast. If you serve a spiny short ball a lot of players' reaction a slow push. And the slow push on a spinny ball often ends in the net. And who can flick short spiny balls usually won't use a fast flick on a slow ball, and you can attack the weaker opening flick.

My serving coach has the philosophy that if your serve is slow it gives the opponent time to read the spin and the serve usually bounces high. His preference is for double bounce fast or single bounce fast.

Archosaurus
03-19-2016, 08:05 PM
My serving coach has the philosophy that if your serve is slow it gives the opponent time to read the spin and the serve usually bounces high. His preference is for double bounce fast or single bounce fast.

This is correct.

Only lower level amateur players play with the pace of the opponent: higher level players will force their pace on the ball.

This is why ex-pro or current pro coaches will advise to serve fast short serves, also because you can disguise a short serve as a half long and vice versa very effectively.

Shuki
03-19-2016, 09:48 PM
This is correct.



Rockstar

Archosaurus
03-19-2016, 09:53 PM
Rockstar
9549

I guess.

darnner123
03-20-2016, 02:14 AM
nice serves nextlevel

in ur fast pendulum serve video im not sure if you are trying to make it fast and spinny so that it catches the opponent offguard. (your serves are kinda half short which means that you are basically serving the ball into the oppenents "power zone")
you can work on serve it longer so it hits the white line and making it faster.
or if you want a shorter serve, work on getting more brush rather than hitting (gives it more spin and shorter balls)

thats all i wanted to say, good serves :)

UpSideDownCarl
03-20-2016, 03:51 AM
9549

I guess.

I like that.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

ajtatosmano2
03-21-2016, 11:28 AM
This is correct.

Only lower level amateur players play with the pace of the opponent: higher level players will force their pace on the ball.

This is why ex-pro or current pro coaches will advise to serve fast short serves, also because you can disguise a short serve as a half long and vice versa very effectively.

If you want to win points with serves yes, slow serves won't make it, only against lower level players. But for set up a point, they are excellent. I've seen my coach serve short and slow (not very slow, but quite slow) many times.
Here is a video about his match play:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmTVG-t0mdo (he is the winner)

NextLevel
03-21-2016, 03:12 PM
If you want to win points with serves yes, slow serves won't make it, only against lower level players. But for set up a point, they are excellent. I've seen my coach serve short and slow (not very slow, but quite slow) many times.
Here is a video about his match play:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmTVG-t0mdo (he is the winner)

If Fazekas is your coach, you are very lucky to have such a high level coach!

Archosaurus
03-21-2016, 03:46 PM
Good video.

1:30 has always puzzled me. That's what I do when I can't return half-long backspin serves aggressively, and I've always considered it bad form, but I get away with it and can win.

If such a high level player does that, then I guess it's a valid technique. Must be the counterattack ability.

NextLevel
03-21-2016, 06:06 PM
Good video.

1:30 has always puzzled me. That's what I do when I can't return half-long backspin serves aggressively, and I've always considered it bad form, but I get away with it and can win.

If such a high level player does that, then I guess it's a valid technique. Must be the counterattack ability.

You must have the wrong time stamp cited...

Archosaurus
03-21-2016, 06:29 PM
At 1:30, his opponent serves to his forehand wing with a reverse pendulum serve. He does the looping motion I am talking about and returns the serve. They exchange forehands and he eventually wins the rally, pushing the opponent on the defensive.

??

NextLevel
03-21-2016, 06:42 PM
At 1:30, his opponent serves to his forehand wing with a reverse pendulum serve. He does the looping motion I am talking about and returns the serve. They exchange forehands and he eventually wins the rally, pushing the opponent on the defensive.

??

Isn't a topspin return of a serve an aggressive return? Or do you mean you have to kill the serve to be aggressive?

Archosaurus
03-21-2016, 06:49 PM
Isn't a topspin return of a serve an aggressive return? Or do you mean you have to kill the serve to be aggressive?

I don't consider that an aggressive return. It's an offensive return that provides initiative, but he got counterattacked even despite all the spin he put on it. I've had a lot of success with this kind of return, and get a very similar return back at me, but I thought it was just because the people I'm playing can't attack it.

NextLevel
03-21-2016, 07:00 PM
I don't consider that an aggressive return. It's an offensive return that provides initiative, but he got counterattacked even despite all the spin he put on it. I've had a lot of success with this kind of return, and get a very similar return back at me, but I thought it was just because the people I'm playing can't attack it.

So what would be an aggressive return then? A return that wins the point outright? You still haven't answered the question. What's the opposite or contrary of aggressive? Offensive? Controlled? Defensive? Passive?

(Shaking my head puzzled...)

IT's not just the spin but the depth of the return and placement by making the opponent move. If he had put it in the middle of the table, it's one thing, but he got it deep enough to back up the opponent and allow the loop to come from a position that he could rally with.

IF you think that you always going to be able to play fast topspins against every serve or slow ball, I have an $1 billion inheritance in Burospinny land which I need $5000 to access - send me the money asap.

Archosaurus
03-21-2016, 07:11 PM
My point is that I was not aware that such a return can even work above the "not terrible beginner but not still any good" level.

I don't think my loops have as much spin as his does, but people can still only half-attack my serve returns, like his opponent in the video. Thus I'm surprised at how effective the shot actually is, even at higher levels.

When a shot like that is played at me and placed well, I can't attack it any harder either, but I always reasoned that it's because my footwork and strokes are nothing compared to a higher level player and that the fault is mine, not because the shot is good.

UpSideDownCarl
03-21-2016, 07:29 PM
A high spinny loop can be very effective sometimes. Especially if it catches the opponent off guard. Sometimes you use a shot like that to help set up taking control of the rally on the 5th ball.

But against a player whose counter loop against high spinny loops is good, that kind of shot can be a mistake. But, it all depends on the opponent and what the opponent does well.

And Fazekas seems comfortable that, in an open rally he has a big edge on his opponent. So he is comfortable letting the rallies extend and being patient for openings.

BTW: video footage can be deceiving. I highly doubt Archo's high spinny loop has as much spin as Fazekas' loop.

But, we still have yet to see footage of the Jurrasic beast/man.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Shuki
03-21-2016, 08:18 PM
So what would be an aggressive return then? A return that wins the point outright? You still haven't answered the question. What's the opposite or contrary of aggressive? Offensive? Controlled? Defensive? Passive?




My point is that I was not aware that such a return can even work above the "not terrible beginner but not still any good" level.

I don't think my loops have as much spin as his does, but people can still only half-attack my serve returns, like his opponent in the video. Thus I'm surprised at how effective the shot actually is, even at higher levels.

When a shot like that is played at me and placed well, I can't attack it any harder either, but I always reasoned that it's because my footwork and strokes are nothing compared to a higher level player and that the fault is mine, not because the shot is good.

I might be missing something. Did you answer his question yet? I haven't seen a higher level player only do fast shots before.

NextLevel
03-21-2016, 08:28 PM
My point is that I was not aware that such a return can even work above the "not terrible beginner but not still any good" level.

I don't think my loops have as much spin as his does, but people can still only half-attack my serve returns, like his opponent in the video. Thus I'm surprised at how effective the shot actually is, even at higher levels.

When a shot like that is played at me and placed well, I can't attack it any harder either, but I always reasoned that it's because my footwork and strokes are nothing compared to a higher level player and that the fault is mine, not because the shot is good.


Your statement is funny. In other words, Timo Boll doesn't exist, because Timo Boll rarely loops the ball past people. Again, it is all about shot quality. You either back them off the table or force them to loop a falling ball. But at that level, all balls can be counterlooped. As one player who was once Malaysian national champ put it in my club, at that level, when they can touch the ball, you have to assume it is coming back.

The response of your opponents is a matter of level. If I play an 1600 level player, I am a counterlooper as I can blast through their level of topspin at the table. If I play an 1800 level player, I become more of a blocker, even if I can counterloop, because I don't back off. If I play a 2000 player, I shoot first or I don't shoot again. I can block of course, but the premium on opening is higher.

You really need to watch more high level table tennis outside of CNT play. CNT play is not realistic table tennis.

ajtatosmano2
03-21-2016, 08:37 PM
I think the reason of the effectiveness of this return was in the opponent's bad positioning. JJ prepared for reaching the ball if it goes wide on his forehand side. Because of the height of the ball and the placement he couldn't generate enough power in that shot.

Archosaurus
03-21-2016, 08:41 PM
I think the reason of the effectiveness of this return was in the opponent's bad positioning. JJ prepared for reaching the ball if it goes wide on his forehand side. Because of the height of the ball and the placement he couldn't generate enough power in that shot.

This is what I'm looking for. I've felt that a slow, spinny shot played high rather than low is more effective, but couldn't really understand why because unless I'm terribly out of position, it's no problem.

Thus, you play this shot to a position where your opponent will be out of position, and that is where the effectiveness comes from even if it's not the best shot objectively. Don't risk losing the point on your attack, and set up a later attack with a higher %.

SpinQuark
03-21-2016, 09:03 PM
My suggestions would be more about how you practice your serves.
Try to always serve as you would in a match which means only holding one ball in your hand at a time, and at least say half the time moving from the serve position into the ready position for the service return, regripping your bat in the process. Some of your tosses, at least on the reverse serve look too low and might be called illegal (if anyone ever called an illegal serve that is).
Also do you challenge yourself with goals while practicing e.g. This time I am going to try to hit 10 double bouncing top spin serves to the right half in a row. OK now I am going to do 15. I find this can also simulate the stress of a match because as you get close to your goal you get anxious that if you miss one you will need to start again.

There is no prize for rushing through 50 balls, make each one lke a match serve. I think the saying is "Practice like you play, and play like you practice".

NextLevel
03-21-2016, 09:27 PM
My suggestions would be more about how you practice your serves.
Try to always serve as you would in a match which means only holding one ball in your hand at a time, and at least say half the time moving from the serve position into the ready position for the service return, regripping your bat in the process. Some of your tosses, at least on the reverse serve look too low and might be called illegal (if anyone ever called an illegal serve that is).
Also do you challenge yourself with goals while practicing e.g. This time I am going to try to hit 10 double bouncing top spin serves to the right half in a row. OK now I am going to do 15. I find this can also simulate the stress of a match because as you get close to your goal you get anxious that if you miss one you will need to start again.

There is no prize for rushing through 50 balls, make each one lke a match serve. I think the saying is "Practice like you play, and play like you practice".


Yes, it's a bad habit. I've always justified it by saying that I don't have the time to get in the reps to build the muscles so I need to serve more reps. I think that I do have enough experience with my serves now that I need to get better at making the details work and trying to get better at pausing.

I play at a pretty fast pace during matches. So I definitely serve and play like I practice.

Shuki
03-21-2016, 10:06 PM
My suggestions would be more about how you practice your serves.
Try to always serve as you would in a match which means only holding one ball in your hand at a time, and at least say half the time moving from the serve position into the ready position for the service return, regripping your bat in the process. Some of your tosses, at least on the reverse serve look too low and might be called illegal (if anyone ever called an illegal serve that is).
Also do you challenge yourself with goals while practicing e.g. This time I am going to try to hit 10 double bouncing top spin serves to the right half in a row. OK now I am going to do 15. I find this can also simulate the stress of a match because as you get close to your goal you get anxious that if you miss one you will need to start again.

There is no prize for rushing through 50 balls, make each one lke a match serve. I think the saying is "Practice like you play, and play like you practice".


I like this, I never practice serves, maybe about 10-20 minutes of practicing them throughout my table tennis career. But if I ever did practice them I would try and do a lot of balls quickly in an attempt to get as many reps as possible. Building nerves by trying to get a certain amount in a row sounds like a really good idea to me.

But I could also see a player that rushes their serves getting more out of rushing their practice serves. I'm the kind of player that won't make my opponent pause if they serve before I'm ready for them to. And the players that abuse this by serving too quickly tend to give me quite a bit of trouble and often come back from sticky situations.

NextLevel
03-21-2016, 10:34 PM
I like this, I never practice serves, maybe about 10-20 minutes of practicing them throughout my table tennis career. But if I ever did practice them I would try and do a lot of balls quickly in an attempt to get as many reps as possible. Building nerves by trying to get a certain amount in a row sounds like a really good idea to me.

But I could also see a player that rushes their serves getting more out of rushing their practice serves. I'm the kind of player that won't make my opponent pause if they serve before I'm ready for them to. And the players that abuse this by serving too quickly tend to give me quite a bit of trouble and often come back from sticky situations.

The longer you wait to practice, the further behind the eight ball you will be. The hours add up significantly, trust me. Even just one year of intense practice of 10 mins a day can reward a lifetime of play. And the earlier you do it, the better, because as you get more advanced, the quality of serves you need to start getting rewards makes you scared to use them. It's better to grow with them and then as your level advances, your serve advances to match it.

Whatever you may think of my serves in the original video, they are 2000 level serves. They are not by my best serves either - my best serve is my backspin no-spin serve, both on my forehand and backhand sides. My backhand pendulum is a close second, but I don't know how to keep it short and low - if I could do that, it would become my number 1 really fast. When I play pips players, I can earn at least 2-4 free points a game just by getting people to either push my backspin into the net or my no-spin off the table with their pips. Maybe that will give you some motivation.

The one benefit you may have is that if you have no serves, you don't have bad habits to overwrite. In that case, find a coach with really good serves to teach you so that you don't start on the wrong foot. Serving responds to coaching better than any other part of the game, yet it is the part that players look for coaching the least on.

Shuki
03-21-2016, 10:38 PM
The longer you wait to practice, the further behind the eight ball you will be. The hours add up significantly, trust me. Even just one year of intense practice of 10 mins a day can reward a lifetime of play. And the earlier you do it, the better, because as you get more advanced, the quality of serves you need to start getting rewards makes you scared to use them. It's better to grow with them and then as your level advances, your serve advances to match it.

Whatever you may think of my serves in the original video, they are 2000 level serves. They are not by my best serves either - my best serve is my backspin no-spin serve, both on my forehand and backhand sides. My backhand pendulum is a close second, but I don't know how to keep it short and low - if I could do that, it would become my number 1 really fast. When I play pips players, I can earn at least 2-4 free points a game just by getting people to either push my backspin into the net or my no-spin off the table with their pips. Maybe that will give you some motivation.

The one benefit you may have is that if you have no serves, you don't have bad habits to overwrite. In that case, find a coach with really good serves to teach you so that you don't start on the wrong foot. Serving responds to coaching better than any other part of the game, yet it is the part that players look for coaching the least on.

Interestingly enough, I know that service practice would be good for me. But I've rarely had a chance to actually do this. No room for a table at my place. And at the clubs I play at the tables are all pretty full. The only chance I'd ever really have is at my coaches house but she says my serves are above my level at the moment and would rather work on some other things to better round myself out.

NextLevel
03-21-2016, 10:53 PM
Interestingly enough, I know that service practice would be good for me. But I've rarely had a chance to actually do this. No room for a table at my place. And at the clubs I play at the tables are all pretty full. The only chance I'd ever really have is at my coaches house but she says my serves are above my level at the moment and would rather work on some other things to better round myself out.

IT would be interesting to understand what she means by your serves being above your level.

1) I know what it means in the context of people who generate more spin on their serves than they can play behind and read.
2) Or maybe you would win at least 3 points per game off an opponent who has never played you before just by serving, or
3) your serves never get attacked at your level in a way that costs you points even against people who play you all the time but are very aggressive.

People used to tell me when I was lower rated that I had good serves because people weren't attacking them hard. But when I started working with Brett, all of a sudden, I stopped losing to players rated much lower than myself. Initially, I found it puzzling, but over time, it became clearer to me that just by transferring what I learned about the reverse pendulum serve to other parts of my game, my serve deception went up, and suddenly players who would just return my serves and relax actually had to read the ball and this drew more errors and made them hesitate too. And my spin went up too, so I could get more errors on serve return.

But I had decent strokes already so I rarely ever served harder than I could attack. But just the improved serving made it easier to get a ball to attack behind. Because the errors made people return less confidently while in the past, after a couple of serves, people would stop missing because they knew what was on the ball and could tell more easily when I varied the quality.

The other thing that really understanding serving does is improve your strokes. Because people learn this sport in different ways. The first thing that raised the level of my loop was being able to get spin on my high toss serves. This let me see the importance of short whip motions (before I ever heard the word whip from Brett or anyone else) and I suddenly started using short whip motions to loop instead of proper loops. My consistency went through the roof when playing pips players. Even now, my loop is largely an arm whip with little if anything else done properly, but I generate some of the highest spin in my club, even more than some proper form loopers.

So it's things like this that make me tell people to work on their serves - because you never know where the insights will come from. Even learning to serve helped me return serves better. I still cannot read spin, but sometimes, I see the ball, and I remember it looking like something I served in my own videos, so I can tell that it is not what I used to think it was and it miraculously stays on the table with quality after I execute my stroke.

SpinQuark
03-21-2016, 11:32 PM
Me learning to move out from the serving position like Yan An (yes I am deluded)...

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?8940-One-Small-Step-(thanks-to-Drill-Your-Skills-)

UpSideDownCarl
03-21-2016, 11:36 PM
When I practice serves, a lot of the time I am working on things like feeling the ball stay on the racket for longer and pulling past the ball to spin it more and have better touch. In match play I usually find that if I am for a spot, I am pretty good at hitting that spot. I don't know why.

But it has been a while since I was able to really practice serves for a decent amount of time. I am just too busy.

So where I try to practice them is during serve and receive drills. The good thing about this kind of practicing serves is, you really do have to practice the whole thing including setting for your 3rd ball.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Shuki
03-22-2016, 12:10 AM
IT would be interesting to understand what she means by your serves being above your level.


When we do group lessons, she'll set up drills that players should be doing while she's with another player. I'm able to consistently do the serves that are asked of me and able to vary the spin amount easily on them too.

But when I actually play my game, I only really like to use serves that I use often because I understand the types of balls that will come back from them better. When I play games I'm very focused on doing the correct stroke to develop the muscle memory for in-game scenarios and not just for drills. I really should start focusing on doing more different serves with varying spin since I'm capable of it when I focus on it.

But that takes focus away from what I'm working on at the moment. Lots of dilemmas like this when trying to improve :(. My serves are on autopilot depending on how I'd like to play at the time.


Lastly, when I do serves that I don't normally do, I don't have much deception on them. I'd have to practice that.

NextLevel
03-22-2016, 12:52 AM
When we do group lessons, she'll set up drills that players should be doing while she's with another player. I'm able to consistently do the serves that are asked of me and able to vary the spin amount easily on them too.

But when I actually play my game, I only really like to use serves that I use often because I understand the types of balls that will come back from them better. When I play games I'm very focused on doing the correct stroke to develop the muscle memory for in-game scenarios and not just for drills. I really should start focusing on doing more different serves with varying spin since I'm capable of it when I focus on it.

But that takes focus away from what I'm working on at the moment. Lots of dilemmas like this when trying to improve :(. My serves are on autopilot depending on how I'd like to play at the time.


Lastly, when I do serves that I don't normally do, I don't have much deception on them. I'd have to practice that.

Everything you are saying is true of all players. That's why putting in the hours count. If your main serve is already at a good level in terms of ball trajectory and spin variation (both amount and deception), you may not need more serves per se, but it can help. The main reason I learned so many is that I don't read serves well and I can't move around to rally, so I need to make my serves one of my game strengths. Being able throw a different look at someone helps because sometimes, the things they use to read my pendulum serve don't help them when I use my backhand reverse pendulum, or the things they use to read my reverse serve do not help them when I use my punch serve.

But yes, I have to practice third ball with all of them, so I mostly use them in practice matches vs. lower rated players. Over time of course, the experience will accumulate.

Shuki
03-22-2016, 01:31 AM
But yes, I have to practice third ball with all of them, so I mostly use them in practice matches vs. lower rated players. Over time of course, the experience will accumulate.

Yes, this is when I practice different serves. I just never realized it until you stated it.

Nikoli
03-22-2016, 02:56 AM
My suggestions would be more about how you practice your serves.
Try to always serve as you would in a match which means only holding one ball in your hand at a time, and at least say half the time moving from the serve position into the ready position for the service return, regripping your bat in the process. Some of your tosses, at least on the reverse serve look too low and might be called illegal (if anyone ever called an illegal serve that is).
Also do you challenge yourself with goals while practicing e.g. This time I am going to try to hit 10 double bouncing top spin serves to the right half in a row. OK now I am going to do 15. I find this can also simulate the stress of a match because as you get close to your goal you get anxious that if you miss one you will need to start again.

There is no prize for rushing through 50 balls, make each one lke a match serve. I think the saying is "Practice like you play, and play like you practice".

Best advice i've been so far. It's very critical us all to get into the ready position after service.
It's good to have couple of good serves up your sleeves, but i'd say for amateurs, who haven't master side spins, should just stick to pure underspin ball and no spin ball for better execution of the 3rd and 5th shots. That way, the rallies are longer, and the games are more fun.

Cheers,

ttmonster
03-22-2016, 02:06 PM
I tend to favor the path where you learn to serve different serves including the the side spin / corkscrew serves and that forces you to improve your understanding of different spins.

Best advice i've been so far. It's very critical us all to get into the ready position after service.
It's good to have couple of good serves up your sleeves, but i'd say for amateurs, who haven't master side spins, should just stick to pure underspin ball and no spin ball for better execution of the 3rd and 5th shots. That way, the rallies are longer, and the games are more fun.

Cheers,

UpSideDownCarl
03-22-2016, 03:37 PM
...is at my coaches house but she says my serves are above my level at the moment and would rather work on some other things to better round myself out.


IT would be interesting to understand what she means by your serves being above your level.


When we do group lessons, she'll set up drills that players should be doing while she's with another player.....

One of the interesting things about this is, in hitting with you, I found your return of serve and rallying skills much better than your serves. After I felt your first few serves out, I realized that, at least the ones you were using while we were just doing the serve and play out the point drills, were all very similar spins for each different serve.

So your pendulum almost always seemed to have mild side/top. It was good. But after a few the spin was consistently the same and the placement didn't vary a whole lot.

Your backhand serves had so little spin that they threw me off for a while.

When we did the third ball attack drill, what stood out to me was that you didn't seem to have a short backspin serve.

But your serve receive was really excellent. And your ability to stay in points and keep the ball coming back was really solid as well.

At first I thought your FH was better than your BH because, when you have a shot lined up, your FH is pretty solid. But then I started realizing that your BH was very versatile and you were able to keep the ball on the table really well. But your FH, was only good when you saw the ball in your power zone and were set for it. And when that was not the case on FH you did not adjust to randomness even half as well as on BH and you made a lot of errors trying to do more than you should when you weren't quite in position.

So I would say, your serve receive his higher than your level. Your BH is super consistent and extremely effective: part of why your serve receive is so good. And when you have lined up and moved to the ball well, your FH it is higher level than your level but overall, your FH is lower level than your BH because of how consistent your BH is.

And your serves, they were decent, they were solid, but if you improved them and your tracking of the ball on FH, your level would actually jump 2 levels.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
03-22-2016, 03:58 PM
Shuki's forehand is probably too short and constricted. Perhaps not up to the contact, but probably on the follow through.

Whenever I have problems with lining up a forehand, it's lack of rotating into the shot and playing it more in a backhand like mentality.

I'm relaxed, and my forehand block is great, so it's not that I'm too tense or my forehand sense is just bad. I don't think it's that for Shuki either. Most likely, it's a constricted swing, due to thinking too much.

UpSideDownCarl
03-22-2016, 04:46 PM
Shuki's forehand is probably too short and constricted. Perhaps not up to the contact, but probably on the follow through.

Whenever I have problems with lining up a forehand, it's lack of rotating into the shot and playing it more in a backhand like mentality.

I'm relaxed, and my forehand block is great, so it's not that I'm too tense or my forehand sense is just bad. I don't think it's that for Shuki either. Most likely, it's a constricted swing, due to thinking too much.

Nope. Not what you are taking about at all. It's an issue of seeing the ball sooner and moving to it better. It's an issue of tracking the ball and intercepting it. He sees the ball better when he is playing BH and makes adjustments to placement. On his FH he didn't seem to do that nearly as well.

His stroke is excellent when he is in the right place and ready for the stroke. Very fast stroke. Good spin. Good pace. Trouble is, a lot of the time he has not moved to where the ball is and then he takes a more conservative stroke.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel
03-22-2016, 04:54 PM
Shuki's forehand is probably too short and constricted. Perhaps not up to the contact, but probably on the follow through.

Whenever I have problems with lining up a forehand, it's lack of rotating into the shot and playing it more in a backhand like mentality.

I'm relaxed, and my forehand block is great, so it's not that I'm too tense or my forehand sense is just bad. I don't think it's that for Shuki either. Most likely, it's a constricted swing, due to thinking too much.

You didn't play the guy and your strokes are probably worse than his. Post video first before talking.

NextLevel
03-22-2016, 04:59 PM
Both approaches have value in my experience. The thing is that when you are lower rated, you often don't have the ability to track and adjust for sidespin behind your third ball if the ball has quality. So you need to be able to vary the amount of spin as well as serve without sidespin when required. I have seen many lower rated players lose badly when the opponent properly returned their sidespin serves after they had played many matches against other opponents who popped them up.

On the other hand, you need to learn to deal with sidespin early. It's really more about being able to adjust your strategy in practice and matches with good coaching and insight into serving tactics. Avoid serving more spin than you can attack behind.

Archosaurus
03-22-2016, 06:22 PM
You didn't play the guy and your strokes are probably worse than his. Post video first before talking.
I give advice based on my own experience, and this is what I get in return?

Can you stop the elitism circlejerking for one second?

ttmonster
03-22-2016, 06:35 PM
Ha ha ... this is the only thing that came to my mind from your response :)

9579



I give advice based on my own experience, and this is what I get in return?

Can you stop the elitism circlejerking for one second?

Archosaurus
03-22-2016, 06:44 PM
I don't think I was ever judging anyone, seeing as I don't have any material to work on. How can you criticize or talk bad about something if it doesn't exist?

If I would have said "Whenever I have problems like that, my forehand is usually constricted on the follow through.

Whenever I have problems with lining up a forehand, it's lack of rotating into the shot and playing it more in a backhand like mentality.

I'm relaxed, and my forehand block is great, so it's not that I'm too tense or my forehand sense is just bad. When I have this problem, it's most likely a constricted swing." then I would have literally said the exact same thing, but with a different subject in the sentences. Of course, because I talked about their highness, great lord of the forums, because I wanted to communicate my experience to them directly, it's a bad thing.

NextLevel
03-22-2016, 06:57 PM
I give advice based on my own experience, and this is what I get in return?

Can you stop the elitism circlejerking for one second?

At some point, it makes sense to know who you are talking to so you can determine if such said experience is applicable. And it makes sense for others to know to whom they are taking so they can determine if such said experience is worth listening to, don't you think?

Forget the "elitism circlejerking" - what is the fault in the point above?

Archosaurus
03-22-2016, 07:05 PM
If a professional coach gave you advice, would you change your opinion on the exact same advice if they revealed themselves to be a professional coach? Even if the advice was completely wrong/absolutely correct in the first place?

We're talking about mechanics here. The matter is the exact same for everyone else who can stand and swing. No matter how good you are, the same problems will affect you in the same way if you do the same things. If Ma Long doesn't follow through well on his loop, this happens. If you don't, this happens. If I don't, this happens.

For all I know, Shuki's mechanics are fine, and it's just his tactics that cause him to be in a bad spot for the forehand. All I am attempting to do is to maybe give him some things to think about and see if they're the cause. He's well smart enough to figure out if it's that or not.

NextLevel
03-22-2016, 07:25 PM
If a professional coach gave you advice, would you change your opinion on the exact same advice if they revealed themselves to be a professional coach? Even if the advice was completely wrong/absolutely correct in the first place?

We're talking about mechanics here. The matter is the exact same for everyone else who can stand and swing. No matter how good you are, the same problems will affect you in the same way if you do the same things. If Ma Long doesn't follow through well on his loop, this happens. If you don't, this happens. If I don't, this happens.

For all I know, Shuki's mechanics are fine, and it's just his tactics that cause him to be in a bad spot for the forehand. All I am attempting to do is to maybe give him some things to think about and see if they're the cause. He's well smart enough to figure out if it's that or not.

Most professional coaches would not venture advice without having seen who they were offering advice to. And a professional coach would establish his expertise and why he should be listened to. Does that help show the problem?

Young people like to believe that life is logical - no, life is about experience. Logic is just a way of organizing experience. If you cannot display expertise or establish it, there is no reason for anyone to listen to you, whether you are correct or not.

ttmonster
03-22-2016, 07:38 PM
life is about experience. Logic is just a way of organizing experience.

You surely took this to the next level :) .

Back to topic, his problem could be because of any number of reasons :

1. Lack of confidence in his swing
2. Lack of footwork
3. Lack of anticipation
4. Incorrect understanding of spin or lack of confidence in the understanding
5. Late timing
6. Incorrect stance, as in favoring the backhand more
7. not adjusting to the height of the ball

How on earth were you able to glean enough information without looking at Shuki's game to come up with such a specific observation ? Confounded Confucius !!!!

Archosaurus
03-22-2016, 07:44 PM
ttmonster, if coaches always took all of those into account at once and commented on all of them at the same time, their students would just have brain aneurysms.


I simply give a "quick fix" that has a little bit of all of those and we see if it helps him. Shuki has a coach, it's her job to fix all of those in great detail, not mine.

ttmonster
03-22-2016, 07:48 PM
@Shuki, please apply master archosaurus 's quick fix and let us all know if your forehand loop starts sticking


ttmonster, if coaches always took all of those into account at once and commented on all of them at the same time, their students would just have brain aneurysms.


I simply give a "quick fix" that has a little bit of all of those and we see if it helps him. Shuki has a coach, it's her job to fix all of those in great detail, not mine.

Archosaurus
03-22-2016, 07:50 PM
Well, it'd be nice if my advice helped him get any close to 0.1% better. That's the point: maybe it sticks, maybe it doesn't.

ttmonster
03-22-2016, 07:53 PM
0.1% ..... now you are talking , the way you put it earlier it sounded like panacea for Shuki's forehand loops
Well, it'd be nice if my advice helped him get any close to 0.1% better. That's the point: maybe it sticks, maybe it doesn't.

Archosaurus
03-22-2016, 07:55 PM
Isn't that common sense?

If you can find someone who will instantly bump your forehand loop up several levels just via text alone, send me a PM. :rolleyes:

ttmonster
03-22-2016, 07:58 PM
And from all your posts in different threads I thought ........

9580


Isn't that common sense?

If you can find someone who will instantly bump your forehand loop up several levels just via text alone, send me a PM. :rolleyes:

NextLevel
03-22-2016, 09:22 PM
The best part of how Archo posts is how often his posts disconnect people while other experienced posters connect with people.

UpSideDownCarl
03-22-2016, 09:23 PM
I really feel like being a clown and posting a video of "La Cucaracha" or something. But....I think instead I'll be a complete fool and try to explain things a little:

Look, Archo, I will try to be straight. Here is the thing. It seems to me your a pretty good kid. I don't know, maybe you're not a kid. But you come off like one.

Sometimes you say things that are pretty good. Sometimes you say things that seem solid on the surface but something seems off. Sometimes you say things that are flat out weird. All of that is okay. None of that is a problem. I mean, at least not to me. Anyone who would say I am sane or normal has to have his head checked. So I am not going to have a problem with someone else who is a bit cracked. You know what I am saying!

But, here is the thing: anytime any footage of anyone comes up on the forum, you are all over giving "constructive" criticism. And sometimes it is constructive. And sometimes it seems a bit less than constructive, which could just be things getting lost in translation. But regardless, as soon as anyone posts any video of anyone playing, you seem to jump all over the (not so) "constructive" criticism commentary.

Now, I don't know, maybe that is how you learn, so trying to comment on other people's technique helps you improve your own. But it comes off as if you think awfully highly of your technical knowhow and the problem there is, so much of what you say seems like "knowledge" learned from reading a magazine but applied to the wrong scenario.

Again, that could have to do with language and the problems with communication in written form.

Writing technical details on a glowing screen doesn't usually transmit facial expressions or tone of voice. Behind a glowing screen you can hide and pretend to be someone you ain't! As evidence, have a look at Sebas-Aguirre's most recent incarnation as the trouble making troll from Burkina Faso, know as kukamonga. But even kukamonga has given us video footage of himself playing. And, truthfully, he is a pretty good player in spite of the fact that the footage he posted was of a match where he was struggling greatly as a result of circumstances not to his liking.

But he posted video!!!!!

Now, do you really mean to say you can't find a way to borrow someone, and their cell phone and get them to film you doing some kind of drill that will help us see some confirmation that you are a human being who actually plays table tennis and not some strange character who read a bunch of articles on how to hit a forehand loop from the Butterfly magazine.

Everyone one here is rooting for you to be a real human being and not a sock-puppet Anthony R Brown trolling the intersphere. I am positive that if you post video--no matter how good or how lousy the quality, no matter how high or low the technique--EVERYONE who has asked you to post video will be supportive and you will have put a human face and vulnerability onto the talking head, sock-puppet persona that you have so far presented yourself as.

So, thanks for understanding Archo: any commentary on the technical details of someone else on this forum's table tennis game will be looked at as trolling from a sock-puppet: at least until you post video footage of yourself playing.

And, I mean, really, if you have played table tennis for more the a few weeks, how is it possible to not have video footage. I remember seeing video footage of myself playing back in 1991 when I didn't know how to play at all and there was no such thing as a digital camera or even a camcorder.

And if you have never seen footage of yourself playing TT, I suggest you start filming as soon and as often as possible. Because, no matter what your level, seeing footage of yourself will help you improve.

Now for a relevant video:


http://youtu.be/QM9Bynjh2Lk


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

UpSideDownCarl
03-22-2016, 09:42 PM
Relevant bonus footage:


http://youtu.be/lyKe4jMDvxY


http://youtu.be/8yqeLdDDITU


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel
03-22-2016, 10:03 PM
Burninating the country side! Burninating the archotaurus! Burbinating the nextkettlel! Turbinating the kowabonga! Burninating the TTlobster! Burninating the CarlUpDownSide!

UpSideDownCarl
03-22-2016, 10:36 PM
Burninating the country side! Burninating the archotaurus! Burbinating the nextkettlel! Turbinating the kowabonga! Burninating the TTlobster! Burninating the CarlUpDownSide!

Man I miss Liten. He made me laugh a lot.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
03-22-2016, 10:41 PM
Check out the general section, I thought you guys might have a laugh.

I promise I'll post some respectable footage later. :rolleyes:

Shuki
03-23-2016, 05:14 AM
First a reply to ttmosters post


You surely took this to the next level :) .

Back to topic, his problem could be because of any number of reasons :

1. Lack of confidence in his swing
2. Lack of footwork
3. Lack of anticipation
4. Incorrect understanding of spin or lack of confidence in the understanding
5. Late timing
6. Incorrect stance, as in favoring the backhand more
7. not adjusting to the height of the ball

How on earth were you able to glean enough information without looking at Shuki's game to come up with such a specific observation ? Confounded Confucius !!!!


1. Lack of confidence in his swing - nope

2. Lack of footwork-Technically yes, I tend to instead of planting my right foot and pushing off for the forehand stroke, stepping with the right foot and stroking at the same time comes up

3. Lack of anticipation - Slightly true, car'l sidespin suprises me even when I know it's coming
4. Incorrect understanding of spin or lack of confidence in the understanding - Definitely true, see point # 3

5. Late timing - sometimes, but usually no.

6. Incorrect stance, as in favoring the backhand more- This is a tricky one, I start off in tournaments and league play with a forehand dominant stance, but as I tire out I make it more of a backhand stance and favor it.

7. not adjusting to the height of the ball. Not a big issue but it happens occasionally like it does everyone








Now to comment about carl's post with my serves and service return.

Like I said earlier, when I serve I'm on auto pilot. I'm completely capable doing shorter serves with heavier backspin. But thats simply not the kind of serve I would use in a game since I autopilot my serves in games. Why do a drill with serves I never use? This would give me very little benefit. The reason my service return is much better than my service is exactly that.

I USED to make my serves very heavy with lots of variation on all of them, But i found myself having to use more energy to get a decent stroke off with these serves. It was simply exhausting. And as I discovered my game being that of a slower player/fisher that still uses attacking strokes, just slow versions of them. I discovered that my service and play style didn't mix well.

Now if we were to play an actual game, You'd probably recieve the same serves from me since I'm so comfortable with them. The only difference would be the pace change, placement and speed of them. I would almost never add a lot of spin to them even though I'm capable.

I really hate heavy topspin, and the more spin that's on the ball, the more topspin my opponent can give me.


Thank you for the kind words about my backhand.

Oh and yes, carl is very right about my tracking with my forehand being not as good. My coach has also noticed this and blames my grip.

Nikoli
03-24-2016, 02:30 AM
Most professional coaches would not venture advice without having seen who they were offering advice to. And a professional coach would establish his expertise and why he should be listened to. Does that help show the problem?

Young people like to believe that life is logical - no, life is about experience. Logic is just a way of organizing experience. If you cannot display expertise or establish it, there is no reason for anyone to listen to you, whether you are correct or not.

Best quote i've seen so far on this forum. Thumbs up!

darnner123
03-24-2016, 04:28 AM
nice video spinquark
anyone can improve as long as they work hard :)

Shuki
03-24-2016, 04:35 AM
Shuki's forehand is probably too short and constricted. Perhaps not up to the contact, but probably on the follow through.

Whenever I have problems with lining up a forehand, it's lack of rotating into the shot and playing it more in a backhand like mentality.

I'm relaxed, and my forehand block is great, so it's not that I'm too tense or my forehand sense is just bad. I don't think it's that for Shuki either. Most likely, it's a constricted swing, due to thinking too much.

None of this was even close to correct. thanks for trying though.

UpSideDownCarl
03-24-2016, 12:56 PM
None of this was even close to correct. thanks for trying though.

Totally agree. None of the "helpful" comments from Archo had anything to do with your game. You are well coached. And if your serves are very basic by design there is nothing wrong with that.

That drill we were doing though--short backspin serve, long push, third ball attack--if your short backspin serve ends up being a long dead serve, the ball you get back will not be a useful quality push for improving your opening against. And a long push off of a long dead ball is probably not a return you will get in match play. But your game is solid and three dimensional. And your opening vs backspin is pretty solid.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 01:04 PM
What would be an example of a two dimensional game?

Shuki
03-24-2016, 01:06 PM
Totally agree. None of the "helpful" comments from Archo had anything to do with your game. You are well coached. And if your serves are very basic by design there is nothing wrong with that.

That drill we were doing though--short backspin serve, long push, third ball attack--if your short backspin serve ends up being a long dead serve, the ball you get back will not be a useful quality push for improving your opening against. And a long push off of a long dead ball is probably not a return you will get in match play. But your game is solid and three dimensional. And your opening vs backspin is pretty solid.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

I never thought of my long backspin serve as "dead". People pop it up like no spin but I always just assumed it was because of the pace I put on the ball. A backspin ball that's fast can actually be treated as no spin.

A player could use the momentum of the ball as their source of power behind it. regardless, I like it. People don't treat it correctly and try to chop it, giving me an easy 3rd ball

Shuki
03-24-2016, 01:07 PM
What would be an example of a two dimensional game?

According to all the video's I've seen of you playing, and the advice you've given. Your game is pretty two dimensional.

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 01:09 PM
According to all the video's I've seen of you playing, and the advice you've given. Your game is pretty two dimensional.
I somehow knew that you'd say exactly this. To the word. :rolleyes:

@UpSideDownCarl
@NextLevel
@NDH

Someone with something smart to say, get in here.

Shuki
03-24-2016, 01:15 PM
I somehow knew that you'd say exactly this. To the word. :rolleyes:

@UpSideDownCarl
@NextLevel
@NDH

Someone with something smart to say, get in here.

You knew that the guy who on average posts one comment per page would say this? Looks like I'm pretty one dimentional when it comes to this forum. It's okay though I'm simply basing this on what I've seen from you.

I do remember you saying you'd find a way to post a video of yourself a few weeks back though.

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 01:19 PM
You knew that the guy who on average posts one comment per page would say this? Looks like I'm pretty one dimentional when it comes to this forum. It's okay though I'm simply basing this on what I've seen from you.

I do remember you saying you'd find a way to post a video of yourself a few weeks back though.

You are extremely one dimensional on the forums. All you've done to now is insult me because I offended you at some point.


I've already posted a video. I purposely posted my worst play I can remember ever playing to see what people have to say. You can go post hateful comments on the thread if you want, but I'd rather get a good, thorough explanation of what exactly a "non-three dimensional" game is.

NDH
03-24-2016, 01:32 PM
I've tried to read through this all, but might have missed some bits.

Can we clarify.... Are people basing their advice to Shuki on video footage.... Or purely a description?

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 01:34 PM
I've tried to read through this all, but might have missed some bits.

Can we clarify.... Are people basing their advice to Shuki on video footage.... Or purely a description?
I was basing mine on a description from Carl. Carl had played with him personally. So it's not exactly a surprise that my advice wasn't accurate.

Anyway, did you see my post on the previous thread?

Shuki
03-24-2016, 01:36 PM
I've tried to read through this all, but might have missed some bits.

Can we clarify.... Are people basing their advice to Shuki on video footage.... Or purely a description?

Carl played with me and based his advice off that. Arch just read Carl's post and stated that my stroke is too short and that I don't go through the ball.

Adding that I don't follow through or rotate my body or relax my stroke.

No video


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 01:39 PM
Shuki doesn't seem to understand the difference between "probably" and "definitely".

Anyway, I'm still wondering what exactly differentiates a 3D game from a 2D/1D game. You could mean anything when you say that, be it shot selection, amount of spin, tactics etc. but I'm sure it's not that simple.

Shuki
03-24-2016, 01:40 PM
Arch I didn't know that you posted a video, still haven't seen it myself but I sincerely apologize for jumping to conclusions. I'll watch it later if I can find it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shuki
03-24-2016, 01:43 PM
3D is well rounded game. 2d would be those low level players with only a few strokes that have gotten pretty good at those strokes but can't get far with them since they don't have various placement, spin, etc..

2d is easy to read


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NDH
03-24-2016, 01:43 PM
I was basing mine on a description from Carl. Carl had played with him personally. So it's not exactly a surprise that my advice wasn't accurate.

Anyway, did you see my post on the previous thread?


Which previous thread are you talking about?

Shuki - I wouldn't listen to anyone on here regarding your technique - Except for what Carl has to say based upon his practice with you.

It's absolutely impossible to ever describe the situation you are in with words - Which is why you have disagreed with the majority of advice from people (rightly so). Frankly, I'm surprised it became a topic of conversation!

Do you have any video you could post (if you want to?). Of course.... I'm not sure I ever saw you ask for advice! But to be fair, I did only skim through the previous 4 pages.

Arch has finally posted his, and I think everyone is very relieved!

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 01:47 PM
Previous PAGE*.

I am asking the difference between a 2D and 3D game.

@Shuki

So if I would only be able to counterhit crosscourt to the middle of the table against a ball in my sweetspot, that'd be pretty much completely one dimensional.

if I can do counterhits with standard spin and maybe varied pace on both wings to both wings, that'd have a little more depth to it.

If I could do low spin hits, medium spin hits, high spin hits, add any amount of sidespin I want to them and be able to place them anywhere I want from either wing under pressure, that'd be three dimensional.

?

NDH
03-24-2016, 01:51 PM
Previous PAGE*.

I am asking the difference between a 2D and 3D game.

@Shuki

So if I would only be able to counterhit crosscourt to the middle of the table against a ball in my sweetspot, that'd be pretty much completely one dimensional.

if I can do counterhits with standard spin and maybe varied pace on both wings to both wings, that'd have a little more depth to it.

If I could do low spin hits, medium spin hits, high spin hits, add any amount of sidespin I want to them and be able to place them anywhere I want from either wing under pressure, that'd be three dimensional.

?

I think the wording has been misinterpreted.

I'm sure Shuki will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he simply means "the difference between a beginner/intermediate (2D) game, and a more advance all around game (3D).

Shuki
03-24-2016, 01:51 PM
I actually had video taken of me recently I wanted to upload but the other player told me he wasn't comfortable with me uploading it. He's a police officer and doesn't want his face out there.

I posted a video about 6 months ago of me doing various strokes with Danny seemiller Jr. But I'm nowhere near as bad as I was back at that training camp

Getting a decent camera and a tripod within the next month in hopes of recording my play on an at least weekly basis to use for improvement


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ttmonster
03-24-2016, 01:54 PM
Shuki , let me help out here . Generally 2D game is played by people who are young , against people who have lack of proper training so they can't get most of the shots back. Since everybody around them treat them like champions they get their ego boosted beyond what is healthy for them . Then one day if they are lucky, they get to play an old , experienced player in a club who is kind to them but carefully shatters their self belief by standing in the middle of the table and just destroying their game with some unorthodox blocks. Now, there are some unlucky guys out there who never get to experience this, and their only hope of redemption is online table tennis forums , but then some of those unlucky guys shoot themselves in their foot by creating an online persona which drives people away :) ... get it ?

Previous PAGE*.

I am asking the difference between a 2D and 3D game.

@Shuki

So if I would only be able to counterhit crosscourt to the middle of the table against a ball in my sweetspot, that'd be pretty much completely one dimensional.

if I can do counterhits with standard spin and maybe varied pace on both wings to both wings, that'd have a little more depth to it.

If I could do low spin hits, medium spin hits, high spin hits, add any amount of sidespin I want to them and be able to place them anywhere I want from either wing under pressure, that'd be three dimensional.

?

Shuki
03-24-2016, 01:55 PM
I think the wording has been misinterpreted.

I'm sure Shuki will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he simply means "the difference between a beginner/intermediate (2D) game, and a more advance all around game (3D).

Yes this is how I interpreted 2d vs 3D


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 02:08 PM
So, if I can stand in the middle of the table and just do dead blocks and sidespin blocks all day until my opponent puts it in the net, pops it up or goes long, my game is 3D because I know exactly where the ball is gonna go with what kind of spin and pace and I can get away with playing like that?

Perhaps against the level of my opponents, but I somehow doubt my game is considered 3D if I'm playing someone of similar or greater ability, at least until I can learn their game.

So, it's relative to the level of the players? Tomokazu Harimoto played Ma Long terribly one-dimensionally most of the time and got his ass handed to him. His game was not 3D.

If Tomokazu Harimoto would play anyone from here, he'd be blasting balls past us with great deception. His game would be 3D.


?

NDH
03-24-2016, 02:16 PM
So, if I can stand in the middle of the table and just do dead blocks and sidespin blocks all day until my opponent puts it in the net, pops it up or goes long, my game is 3D because I know exactly where the ball is gonna go with what kind of spin and pace and I can get away with playing like that?

Perhaps against the level of my opponents, but I somehow doubt my game is considered 3D if I'm playing someone of similar or greater ability, at least until I can learn their game.

So, it's relative to the level of the players? Tomokazu Harimoto played Ma Long terribly one-dimensionally most of the time and got his ass handed to him. His game was not 3D.

If Tomokazu Harimoto would play anyone from here, he'd be blasting balls past us with great deception. His game would be 3D.


?

At the risk of complicating what I believe was supposed to be a simple use of terms - I'll try and break it down.

Everyone at the top of the sport has a 3D game - Even those who get their ass handed to them by Ma Long - No one can get to that level without having a good all around game.

If you do dead blocks and sidespin blocks against a decent player (for humours value, let's say they have a 3D game....), then you'll lose 10 times out of 10 - Of course, it is all relative - If Ma Long did dead blocks and sidespin blocks all day long against you, then yes, you would probably lose.

It's not as simple as black and white - You have to adapt the terminology depending on who you are talking about.

So yeah - In principle..... Lower level players (been playing 1 year, or a few years without coaching), are likely to have a more 2D game.

You can then have really experienced players, who might not be world beaters, but have developed an all around game through sheer experience - This could be called 3D.

You also have inexperienced players who have had tons of coaching and have developed a 3D game very quickly - However, these would be advanced players, even considering their relative lack of experience (2-3 years of playing).

Long story short...... I think it's easy to get caught up on terminology - Especially when it can be open to interpretation.

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 02:21 PM
So 3D game is just a buzzword and simply means how good you are at getting the ball on the table in a way that the opponent doesn't like instead of always giving him what he wants, when he wants it?

ttmonster
03-24-2016, 02:25 PM
I did not say the guy who is doing the blocks is a 3D guy, I told the guy who is getting beaten is a 2D guy :) .

"I know exactly where the ball is gonna go with what kind of spin and pace "

I believe this is what 90% of table tennis skills is , the rest 10% is physical fitness .

Whether your shot looks like Ma Longs , whether you can move like Ryu Seung Min or you have a backhand like Zhang Jike does not really matter .... unless you have the brains and the mental calm during play to understand what is going on regarding strategy and anticipate where your opponent is going to play . Table tennis is a technique sport till you are learning the technique, its actually speed chess when you are done learning ... and that is the remaining dimension :)


So, if I can stand in the middle of the table and just do dead blocks and sidespin blocks all day until my opponent puts it in the net, pops it up or goes long, my game is 3D because I know exactly where the ball is gonna go with what kind of spin and pace and I can get away with playing like that?

Perhaps against the level of my opponents, but I somehow doubt my game is considered 3D if I'm playing someone of similar or greater ability, at least until I can learn their game.

So, it's relative to the level of the players? Tomokazu Harimoto played Ma Long terribly one-dimensionally most of the time and got his ass handed to him. His game was not 3D.

If Tomokazu Harimoto would play anyone from here, he'd be blasting balls past us with great deception. His game would be 3D.


?

NDH
03-24-2016, 02:25 PM
So 3D game is just a buzzword and simply means how good you are at getting the ball on the table in a way that the opponent doesn't like instead of always giving him what he wants, when he wants it?

It is certainly a buzzword - And it can mean different things to different people.

If you asked 100 people what their definition of "3D game", you'd likely get some very different answers.

If you were to ask me personally what my definition of "3D game is" it would be:

All the shots to a strong standard - Forehand Loop, Back Hand Loop, Block, Short Game, Serve.

If they have that (in my opinion), then the ball will get put back on the table - Regardless of who they are playing.

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 02:41 PM
So a 3D game is based on solid fundamentals, and when you have them, you can start getting a bit creative and tactical.

Good coaching develops those fundamentals, and thus you can become an advanced player sooner and start playing the game instead of just performing the strokes.


I think a good example of 2D vs 3D game would be a scenario where I was some time ago:

Opponent gets ready for a big flat hit crosscourt to my forehand corner, I retreat a bit and get ready to block or counter it.

His shot slams into the top of the net and pops up 10cm or so. I'm stuck on my forehand wing some feet away.

He says "Yes!" thinking it's over and I'm either not gonna make it or I will just pop it up for a big finisher, but I spotted the net ball early, moved early and got to the ball, then I stare at him while I forehand flip a ball past his left, fading towards his backhand. He had his bat up ready to block from the forehand side, and couldn't ever see it coming.

I guess a 2D game would have been to push it over to his side, or do whatever comfortable return I am used to doing, instead of something unexpected.

UpSideDownCarl
03-24-2016, 02:49 PM
I never thought of my long backspin serve as "dead". People pop it up like no spin but I always just assumed it was because of the pace I put on the ball. A backspin ball that's fast can actually be treated as no spin.

A player could use the momentum of the ball as their source of power behind it. regardless, I like it. People don't treat it correctly and try to chop it, giving me an easy 3rd ball

That long backhand serve, if it helps you in a game, if people try to push that serve, then they are lower level than you and you should try to play better opponents as well. If the drill wasn't to try and push it, I would never have thought of pushing it.

And in that drill, for your level, the whole point should probably be, for you to get low, heavy, well placed pushes like a higher level player might give you if they actually pushed. So you can get used to moving to and looping pushes that are higher level. Smacking a high ball, you do that well. You don't need to work on it. [emoji2]


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 02:55 PM
About pushes on serve receive:

Do you always want them loaded? I know it's a good idea to push a loaded push short, or deep into the opponent, but is a deliberate floating push or very short push with little to no spin ever a good idea?

Of course, you're not gonna want to push very high (Unless your opponent is so bad that they will just smack it into the net :rolleyes:) but what about those variations?

NDH
03-24-2016, 03:18 PM
About pushes on serve receive:

Do you always want them loaded? I know it's a good idea to push a loaded push short, or deep into the opponent, but is a deliberate floating push or very short push with little to no spin ever a good idea?

Of course, you're not gonna want to push very high (Unless your opponent is so bad that they will just smack it into the net :rolleyes:) but what about those variations?

Yeah it's always good to mix it up.

A short push with a little back spin, can be a great shot - If the opponent flicks the ball back, you have can counter and get on the front foot.

If the opponent pushes back to you, it is likely to have little backspin (unless they push long and hard), so you can again get on the front foot.

It all depends on your opponents strengths.

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 03:27 PM
I have a friend who I play who really isn't good at attacking unless it's right in his sweetspot, but his defense is great. I can't just hit through him if he's not allowing me to and the bastard will dead block as soon as I get farther away from the table and can actually spin the ball some.

Usually when he serves relatively heavy backspin, enough to discourage me from flicking, I'll load the push. He will then push it with very little backspin very low over the net, and I can't do anything offensive with that ball. It practically drops right over the net.

If I give him a push that's long with very little backspin, he will attack it, but my attack is superior, so it benefits me.
If I give him a push that's very short with very little backspin, his push will lack enough in the quality department to be flicked, usually because it's high due to him misreading it.


We've been playing for over a year together, and he's got used to my loaded pushes. That's why they're not always as effective as mixing it up.

I can imagine the effectiveness of setting some patterns in your short game, then breaking them deliberately with a more floaty push, against a person who doesn't know you are even capable of doing that.

So the prospect of getting to a level (Apart from perhaps top 100's) where everyone can kill anything that isn't heavy isn't entirely correct and this makes some sense.

UpSideDownCarl
03-24-2016, 05:27 PM
Wow. The thread hikjack is in full effect. It seems like all that fuss about 3 dimensional/2 dimensional--yes, about SEMANTICS--started with someone being insistent about wanting to know what I meant.

Well, here is what I meant when I made the statement. From training with him for 2 hours and going through a variety of drills including game simulation drills, I found him to be solid in his technique. All his strokes are good: serves, pushes, chops, loops, drives, counter-hits. There isn't a stand out weakness. He also can link all of those things so that he is not one of those guys who look good while training and then play a match and are no good at connecting shots, thinking on their feet or playing matches. At Shuki's level he is a decently complete player.

But less than 3 dimensional as a player could mean any number of things. I think NDH did a good job at explaining this. But why not take a shot at it myself.

I remember, in the 1990's when I really sucked and didn't really ply, there was a point, for 3 months, between jobs, when I found a TT club and went and played. Most of what I did was hit with the robot because almost everyone there was too good for me to play.

This one time, this guy wanted to play me a match. He had an outfit on that made him look like a pro. He told me he was 1500. At the time I didn't even know what that meant. Anyway, we played and I think we played a best of 5 match. Back then games went to 21 so that was a long match. But we were there to play. He did all these things that, at the time I thought were funny like how he tried to serve from the deep BH side or how he tried to take big shots with his FH from the BH side. These things left him open. He'd move to the BH side and I'd put the ball on the FH side. He'd run over, I'd put it back on the BH side. The match was close. It went to the last game. And I did win. But I never should have been able to play remotely close to his level. From a technical standpoint he was better than me in every way. But he had gaping holes in his understanding of how to apply those techniques in a game situation. Perhaps people who he played who were in the 1500 range did not think of doing the things I did which to me seemed totally simple and obvious. He was 1 dimensional because he could not execute the game plan he was trying to implement. So that is one version of not being 3 dimensional. When I did not fall into his silly traps, he did not know how to adapt to something different.

There was this one time a few years ago I played this guy who is a friend now. He also should be way better than me. His serves are awesome. His FH is beautiful. His game is almost complete. If his BH was as good as his serve and FH, he would be 2100 level minimum. But, his BH is sooooo bad that I can still get matches from him. The matchup of my BH to his BH, I will not lose if I can keep him pinned to his BH. And if he tries to turn for FH when I try to pin him there he gives me an open down the line.

That is a different version of not 3 dimensional. One wing being week.

Some players can hide a missing dimension well enough. But if you find and expose one of those things they are week at, you can start picking apart their game.

Someone whose game is complete and 3 dimensional, they might get their azz kicked by a higher level player. But that is what happens when you play someone better than you. A complete player will be able to adapt to whatever someone on their level throws at them whether they are winning or losing in a match.

Table tennis is a sport of levels. When you do everything solidly at your actual level, I would say you are a complete or 3 dimensional player. But a player 2 levels higher than you, will almost always beat you.

If all you do well is attack, you may be a one dimensional player. If all you are able to do is chop, even if you are a very good player, you might be one dimensional.

All aspects of Shuki's game are developing side by side. That is what I meant when I used the term. He is well coached and pretty darn good.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 05:41 PM
That makes good sense.

I used to be that guy in your story. Until I played someone who destroyed me because of how simple my game was. He barely had to try and I was always open somewhere, unless I simply overpowered him or really fought with nail and tooth to get that forehand out. My backhand really sucked.

I noticed that developing my backhand was the key to raising me a level or two above my peers. My backhand used to really stink, but the improvement has been so dramatic that a friend of mine who has been playing with me since my stinking backhand days gets amazed at some backhand shots I can perform, because they were pure fantasy before. Now I can finish a point and rally from both wings.

After that, I developed my push. Then my block. Then my chop. You get the point. Even if I chop maybe once or twice a day, unless I feel like chopping, the skill of being able to defend like that is very valuable and offers so much.

I used to be, and still am, a huge Waldner fan. So I screwed around with shots that I couldn't perform soundly. Now I can perform them at least somewhat solidly, and my game is well beyond what most people would have at this level of experience, barring some damn good coaching. I think there's a lot of good aspects of my game that probably aren't apparent in what I've said/shown to now. At least, that's what I feel when I play people who are actually at my level and I can perform well against them.

Shuki
03-24-2016, 07:22 PM
That long backhand serve, if it helps you in a game, if people try to push that serve, then they are lower level than you and you should try to play better opponents as well. If the drill wasn't to try and push it, I would never have thought of pushing it.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

This is interesting to me. I definitely am not playing players lower level than me. About 1900-2000 is the average player I'm playing. But I do notice that the pen holders tend to try and push it a lot more than the shake handers. But even so, I'm EXPECTING the shake hand players to attack it. The thing is, when the shakehand player recieves a ball with little backspin to no backspin they can't really RIP it back. Their return may be aggressive but it's not great.

After they realize that their attack isn't strong and they're really just setting me up for my game, I notice they take half a step back before my next serve. That's when I pull the plug and make it short in front of the net. 2 Days ago I saw players talking about the ghost serve and they were pretty bad themselves. They asked me if I could do it and so I tried.

I did it with 3 balls,
The first, successful but it got pretty damn close to the edge of the table before turning around.
The second, Adjustments were made and I shortened the distance but the ball was a bit high. What happened when it was high was a magical moment. The ball bounced once on my side, then once on their's VERY close to the net, and then the ball tried to pull it's way back to my side but instead hit the net and bounced straight down.
Third attempt. Low and not too long. Felt good, Still not going to put it in my arsenal of serves though.

I did all these as forehand pendulums btw. The BIGGEST problem with making service a powerful part of my game, is the fact that all my focus goes toward the serve.

I prefer to keep my focus on countering my opponents attack off my serves or capitalizing off their weaker return.

You're also the first player EVER to tell me my serves aren't up to par. I'm pretty sure this is because I was on autopilot, but then again we were doing a drill where I should have made myself do better on my serves. More than anything during our drills though, I wanted to not **** up during a rally to make myself seem worthy of your time.

Shuki
03-24-2016, 07:24 PM
About pushes on serve receive:

Do you always want them loaded? I know it's a good idea to push a loaded push short, or deep into the opponent, but is a deliberate floating push or very short push with little to no spin ever a good idea?

Of course, you're not gonna want to push very high (Unless your opponent is so bad that they will just smack it into the net :rolleyes:) but what about those variations?

Can't push a LOADED serve short, part of Seemiller Senior's training consisted of stepping in for the push, and making sure to push it HARD and SPINNY. This guarentees that you can step off the table for your next stroke since if you use enough spin it will force them to give you a longer ball.

Shuki
03-24-2016, 07:32 PM
Description of 1dv3d and shuki's game

These compliments were a great confidence boost and made me feel really good. I'm nowhere near a decentish level in my own honest opinion so I really want to thank you for all the kind words.

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 07:37 PM
Can't push a LOADED serve short, part of Seemiller Senior's training consisted of stepping in for the push, and making sure to push it HARD and SPINNY. This guarentees that you can step off the table for your next stroke since if you use enough spin it will force them to give you a longer ball.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

Why can't you push a heavy spin serve short? What's preventing it?

Ideally, the way I'd respond to a really loaded serve is to give them a really loaded push deep into their backhand, step back and get into a topspin rally, just what I like. Sometimes things go differently. Sometimes the ball floats over the net with relatively little spin, and goes very short. I can imagine an elite player being able to flick or flip that to oblivion, but I'm not an elite player.

Shuki
03-24-2016, 07:40 PM
I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

Why can't you push a heavy spin serve short? What's preventing it?

Ideally, the way I'd respond to a really loaded serve is to give them a really loaded push deep into their backhand, step back and get into a topspin rally, just what I like. Sometimes things go differently. Sometimes the ball floats over the net with relatively little spin, and goes very short. I can imagine an elite player being able to flick or flip that to oblivion, but I'm not an elite player.

Explain to me the angle in which you're raquet is when pushing something VERY heavy. If you're both using inverted rubber and neither of them are dead. It's almost always going to go long. Maybe you simply think your chop is more loaded than it is?

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 07:48 PM
Explain to me the angle in which you're raquet is when pushing something VERY heavy. If you're both using inverted rubber and neither of them are dead. It's almost always going to go long. Maybe you simply think your chop is more loaded than it is?
My push most likely doesn't have as much backspin as I think it does, and our rubber is most definitely not that spinny compared to pro grade commercial rubber.

I still fail to see why it's seemingly physically impossible to kill the spin from a loaded shot and return it short. We are talking about backspin, right?

Shuki
03-24-2016, 07:52 PM
My push most likely doesn't have as much backspin as I think it does, and our rubber is most definitely not that spinny compared to pro grade commercial rubber.

I still fail to see why it's seemingly physically impossible to kill the spin from a loaded shot and return it short. We are talking about backspin, right?

Not impossible. Just very difficult, That's why a professional player says to just push heavy and deep so they won't have to deal with a short ball. It's just his style. If you have a good short game keep pushing short. But if your opponent is easily keeping it short off your push you should be able to just flip it to topspin fairly easily.

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 08:01 PM
Not impossible. Just very difficult, That's why a professional player says to just push heavy and deep so they won't have to deal with a short ball. It's just his style. If you have a good short game keep pushing short. But if your opponent is easily keeping it short off your push you should be able to just flip it to topspin fairly easily.

Sounds about right.

When I said I can't do anything to the ball, I mostly meant with my current ability and how I usually play. If I'm really on fire, I can get to it early enough and either flip it with my forehand for a winner, if the stars align, or start a rally with my backhand flick otherwise. Even against this guy who can keep most of my pushes short, I can vary the spin and placement a bit and force a long ball that I can attack with either wing.

Usually, if it's a pushing competition, he will eventually push it long and I can use my forehand. Otherwise, I'll push his serve loaded and deep and he'll return it long to my backhand.

I'm not dealing with really good players here, and my short game is quite good because I read somewhere that the quality of a player is determined in how he treats the short game before the attack, so my perspective is a bit different, but I think we're on the same page. I'm good at killing spin, so I can keep shots short that would otherwise probably go long. Against a truly heavy shot, maybe not.

Shuki
03-24-2016, 08:05 PM
I'm not dealing with really good players here, and my short game is quite good because I read somewhere that the quality of a player is determined in how he treats the short game before the attack, so my perspective is a bit different, but I think we're on the same page. I'm good at killing spin, so I can keep shots short that would otherwise probably go long. Against a truly heavy shot, maybe not.

Good at short game should mean a light backspin, to a nospin ball thats short should be easy for you to flip.

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 08:07 PM
Good at short game should mean a light backspin, to a nospin ball thats short should be easy for you to flip.
Well, it is. Pretty much the ideal and basically a free point for me. When it's hard is if I'm not expecting it in the slightest.

I didn't mention in this thread, but our net is a bit busted. So balls that clip the net just plummet. That probably has something to do with it.

Shuki
03-24-2016, 08:14 PM
Well, it is. Pretty much the ideal and basically a free point for me. When it's hard is if I'm not expecting it in the slightest.


If a short game is a free point for you you should just always serve short. You'll always win. All you need is to earn ONE point off your opponent.

Archosaurus
03-24-2016, 08:20 PM
If a short game is a free point for you you should just always serve short. You'll always win. All you need is to earn ONE point off your opponent.
I pretty much always serve short against good opponents, exactly because of that. One or two free pop ups or bad returns from them are huge.

Keep in mind this is entirely relative, of course. My short game against a person of similar or slightly greater ability would probably be a little bit over average because of my emphasis on it, but not really that much. I don't think they'd give me more than one free point per game.

Because I don't have regular practice partners, and nowadays I don't even have any good players to play with, I do a ton of serve practice. We're talking hours per day, every workday. That probably has something to do with my short game.

Shuki
03-24-2016, 08:57 PM
wrong thread

NextLevel
03-24-2016, 10:38 PM
Totally agree. None of the "helpful" comments from Archo had anything to do with your game. You are well coached. And if your serves are very basic by design there is nothing wrong with that.

That drill we were doing though--short backspin serve, long push, third ball attack--if your short backspin serve ends up being a long dead serve, the ball you get back will not be a useful quality push for improving your opening against. And a long push off of a long dead ball is probably not a return you will get in match play. But your game is solid and three dimensional. And your opening vs backspin is pretty solid.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

For some reason, many people I train with don't get that part. Then they wonder why they don't have a heavy backspin serve at 9-9 in the match. It's training for God's sake!

NextLevel
03-24-2016, 11:07 PM
That long backhand serve, if it helps you in a game, if people try to push that serve, then they are lower level than you and you should try to play better opponents as well. If the drill wasn't to try and push it, I would never have thought of pushing it.

And in that drill, for your level, the whole point should probably be, for you to get low, heavy, well placed pushes like a higher level player might give you if they actually pushed. So you can get used to moving to and looping pushes that are higher level. Smacking a high ball, you do that well. You don't need to work on it. [emoji2]


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Well said!!

Der_Echte
03-25-2016, 04:26 AM
I USED to make my serves very heavy with lots of variation on all of them, But i found myself having to use more energy to get a decent stroke off with these serves. It was simply exhausting. And as I discovered my game being that of a slower player/fisher that still uses attacking strokes, just slow versions of them. I discovered that my service and play style didn't mix well.

Hmm, I find it real intriguing to see making heavy spin on your serves is wearing you out.

One should be able to make heavy spin with a really short stroke, (if that is the normal stroke one uses) or with better timing on a long and fast stroke. Neither of those is any more tiring to produce heavy vs moderate spin, with the short stroke being the least tiring, yet still capable of producing heavy spin.

I strongly believe that being able to generate heavy spin is an absolute must to make your lighter spin serves more effective if they appear to be the same form receiver's POV. So, that is why I feel it is big time important to generate that spin and placement early to establish a big variance. Moderate variances are good too, as long as you can control opponent's attack.

I won't go into great detail on how to make this kind of impact, like I have on several threads, but I will summarize it all by saying the following:

- At impact, horizontal plane of bat angle must be oriented horizontal, position of tip of bat can be nuetral, or pointed up or down, doesn't matter. Another way to define horizontal plane is to hold bat completely parallel to table aligned along side of endline with bat handle near BH corner and tip of bat pointed towards FH corner. If you rotate side of bat bat clockwise or counter clockwise, you messed up your bat angle at impact, if that is the angle the bat is at impact.

- stroke must be forward

- grip must be LOOSE

- max acceleration happens right before and DURING dwell period (you take a fast bat and make it faster while you catch and throw out the ball)

- you are relaxed and making a whipping motion - you can do this in a very short stroke or a long one.

- for a short serve, first bounce is in the area of a tad forward of halfway to net, but you have a wide variance possible.

You have to develop the touch, and the exercise where you toss of ball, swipe under it relaxed while standing up, shoot ball out a meter or two on the floor, and make ball spin back to you... this exercise develops the touch, timing, and needed bat angles, so when you go to the table and practice, you are better setup for success.

Shuki
03-25-2016, 04:31 AM
Hmm, I find it real intriguing to see making heavy spin on your serves is wearing you out.

One should be able to make heavy spin with a really short stroke, (if that is the normal stroke one uses) or with better timing on a long and fast stroke. Neither of those is any more tiring to produce heavy vs moderate spin, with the short stroke being the least tiring, yet still capable of producing heavy spin.

I strongly believe that being able to generate heavy spin is an absolute must to make your lighter spin serves more effective if they appear to be the same form receiver's POV. So, that is why I feel it is big time important to generate that spin and placement early to establish a big variance. Moderate variances are good too, as long as you can control opponent's attack.

I won't go into great detail on how to make this kind of impact, like I have on several threads, but I will summarize it all by saying the following:

- At impact, horizontal plane of bat angle must be oriented horizontal, position of tip of bat can be nuetral, or pointed up or down, doesn't matter. Another way to define horizontal plane is to hold bat completely parallel to table aligned along side of endline with bat handle near BH corner and tip of bat pointed towards FH corner. If you rotate side of bat bat clockwise or counter clockwise, you messed up your bat angle at impact, if that is the angle the bat is at impact.

- stroke must be forward

- grip must be LOOSE

- max acceleration happens right before and DURING dwell period (you take a fast bat and make it faster while you catch and throw out the ball)

- you are relaxed and making a whipping motion - you can do this in a very short stroke or a long one.

- for a short serve, first bounce is in the area of a tad forward of halfway to net, but you have a wide variance possible.

You have to develop the touch, and the exercise where you toss of ball, swipe under it relaxed while standing up, shoot ball out a meter or two on the floor, and make ball spin back to you... this exercise develops the touch, timing, and needed bat angles, so when you go to the table and practice, you are better setup for success.

Sorry, I wasn't clear with my post. It's not exerting more energy on the serve, rather the follow up loop off their push on my heavier serves.

NextLevel
03-25-2016, 04:44 AM
Sorry, I wasn't clear with my post. It's not exerting more energy on the serve, rather the follow up loop off their push on my heavier serves.

You were clear - DerEchte just likes a chance to teach - he is kinda like me, just nicer.

Der_Echte
03-25-2016, 05:52 AM
First a reply to ttmosters post




1. Lack of confidence in his swing - nope

2. Lack of footwork-Technically yes, I tend to instead of planting my right foot and pushing off for the forehand stroke, stepping with the right foot and stroking at the same time comes up

3. Lack of anticipation - Slightly true, car'l sidespin suprises me even when I know it's coming
4. Incorrect understanding of spin or lack of confidence in the understanding - Definitely true, see point # 3

5. Late timing - sometimes, but usually no.

6. Incorrect stance, as in favoring the backhand more- This is a tricky one, I start off in tournaments and league play with a forehand dominant stance, but as I tire out I make it more of a backhand stance and favor it.

7. not adjusting to the height of the ball. Not a big issue but it happens occasionally like it does everyone








Now to comment about carl's post with my serves and service return.

Like I said earlier, when I serve I'm on auto pilot. I'm completely capable doing shorter serves with heavier backspin. But thats simply not the kind of serve I would use in a game since I autopilot my serves in games. Why do a drill with serves I never use? This would give me very little benefit. The reason my service return is much better than my service is exactly that.

I USED to make my serves very heavy with lots of variation on all of them, But i found myself having to use more energy to get a decent stroke off with these serves. It was simply exhausting. And as I discovered my game being that of a slower player/fisher that still uses attacking strokes, just slow versions of them. I discovered that my service and play style didn't mix well.

Now if we were to play an actual game, You'd probably recieve the same serves from me since I'm so comfortable with them. The only difference would be the pace change, placement and speed of them. I would almost never add a lot of spin to them even though I'm capable.

I really hate heavy topspin, and the more spin that's on the ball, the more topspin my opponent can give me.


Thank you for the kind words about my backhand.

Oh and yes, carl is very right about my tracking with my forehand being not as good. My coach has also noticed this and blames my grip.


You were clear - DerEchte just likes a chance to teach - he is kinda like me, just nicer.

Nope, I sincerely believed Shuki was saying serving heavy spin wears him out.

However, yes, you are correct, I really LIKE explaining things on TT forums, it helps me think and reinforces my game, so it helps me out too. I cannot assign a value to TT forums in how positive they have helped my game. There is so much I gained from participating in TT forums.

Shuki, I still think one should serve heavy underspin to at least establish your underspin serve is heavy, so when you take away spin, you get easier setups if you disguised it well. Even so, there is nothing terribly tiring about looping heavy underspin for the first shot, it is a matter of getting down and exploding up with leverage. We use a similar amount of energy on a strong loopdrive from a ball a little high and not so much underspin. It surely IS tiresome to loop 5 in a row from a chopper giving it to you heavy though... or run all around the court trying to get in your FH...

I shoulda taken my GeritolĀ® beofre reading Shuki's comments. :D

Der_Echte
03-25-2016, 05:55 AM
Anyone not knowing Geritol, that is a real famous maker of chem laden vitimans heavily marketed towards really OLD people in US, so it was like you were not functional if you didn't take your Geritol... or that is the gist of it.

So that is a Der_Echte style wry humor saying Der_Echte has a bad case of Old-Azz-itis.

ttmonster
03-25-2016, 06:03 AM
@Shuki : I am thinking the point#2 you mentioned in reply to my post may be the reason why you are having an issue.

2. Lack of footwork-Technically yes, I tend to instead of planting my right foot and pushing off for the forehand stroke, stepping with the right foot and stroking at the same time comes up

See, this is how it went for me, I love spinning up against underspin and watching people miss their blocks or giving me an high ball back which I can loop early and finish the point . But this puts a lot of load on my right leg, my left knee has meniscus tear + cartilege tear + ligament tear :P , it happened almost 8 years back and I never had the time to do an arthoscopy , so now my right knee is starting to make noises even when I walk.

What I found was that if you can try taking the ball earlier instead of letting fall below the table level it will need a lot less power to generate a decently spinny loop , and you necessarily don't want people to miss their blocks, let them give you a ball back and a chance to loop again, but from then on they will be loops against pretty good topspin which need less energy.

now if you are having issues practicing this weight transfer when you are serving heavy yourself , you can first ask your training partner to serve short light underspin, you drop short to his forehand and ask him to push longer to your forehand cross court , where you start looping against underspin. You can ask him to increase the spin in his serve once you find your timing and footwork to contact the ball early .

The other, back breaking approach is to start playing with a chopper , I have tried this and that is where I started getting my loops spinnier, at somepoint you will have to do it too so why not start now ? You will find that with ball feeling , you can get away with better timing and less leg power .

Let me know if I was able to address your issue or I am way off the mark, which could very well be the case :)

UpSideDownCarl
03-25-2016, 05:17 PM
Okay. Here is the heart of things as I see them. Shuki has actually talked about play being tiring. This is not the first time he has indicated that, at a certain point, his energy level and his ability to play at his optimum level drops.

As someone who can and has played for 12 hours straight, I could pretend to not understand that. But I do. And there are three parts to the solutions. All three of which need to be addressed together.

Shuki, you are a thin dude. You are healthy, but you may need more 1) strength and more 2) cardio endurance. But, that without the 3) nutritional thing (I know, I risk a torrential tirade of comical advice from Der_Echte by opening up this can of worms but I have a feeling that the tirade and his jumping on the bandwagon of condemning the pharmaceutical establishment that will undoubtedly go with it will be good high comedy--okay, I made myself laugh imagining it all) the fitness training without the nutritional thing will not be as useful. You need 1) Cardio Training, 2) Strength Training and 3) Good Nutrition.

Anyway, given how you are prone to ebbing energy levels, making sure you eat some good, healthy energy food an hour or two before you play would be really useful. Also having some fast energy food that has electrolyte replacements for you during play, would be useful. Like, every 45 min having half a banana! Those two pieces of nutritional advice alone, would really help your play time energy levels.

But, some strength training and a decent high-intensity cardio regimen to get you in better shape would be really useful so that you don't need to worry about how much energy you expend and the idea of trying to conserve energy can be overcome. Crystal Meth works too. But I don't recommend that route. :)

For the cardio, if you did something like circuit training, where you take a moderate intensity, and then push the intensity up for a period and then drop it down to the moderate intensity and then you spike the intensity and drop it. And each time you spike the intensity, you spike it higher till you hit max intensity which would be something like you running as fast as you possibly can for a minute and then going back to a level where it is still fast enough to be a workout but slow enough for you to "catch your breath", that kind of workout with those kinds of peaks and valleys in intensity done for 30-40 minutes straight, 1-3 times a week, will really help you get in better shape.

But you should probably also add a certain amount of strength training to your regimen: yes, lifting some weights. Those 2 things (done consistently will get you to stop worrying about getting tired while playing.

As far as heavy backspin and why it is something that is hard to return short, the speed of the spin makes it so that when you lightly touch the ball, the ball jumps off your racket much faster than slow backspin would cause. I know, it sounds obvious. If your racket is angled correctly to push the ball over the net onto the other side, the spin will cause the ball to go back fast enough so that it is much harder to keep the push soft. But, with that, we are talking about HEAVY backspin.

But that is the standard reason why short heavy backspin serves are so valuable. It is hard to loop them when they are short, over the table and really heavy. And it is hard to keep the push short so you make it much more likely that you get the first attack and you get a nice spinny push to attack so your loop should be pretty darn spinny too.

But, the kind of heavy backspin that really does that is someone like Damien Provost's heavy backspin. In other words, 2700 level heavy backspin. His serves are ridiculous to try and return. :)

Der_Echte
03-25-2016, 06:33 PM
Rest Hydration Nutrition and progression or often overlooked or neglected for various reasons... usually it is because there are only 24 hrs in a day.

TT is physical training... but we cannot get up early, work, eat shytty, work long, eat shytty again, play for hours, eat even shyttier, do a few hours of stuff past midnight... we cannot go on like that every day for a month. Something will give.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

ttmonster
03-25-2016, 06:39 PM
@Shuki : To start with, get a decent 7-8 hours sleep , the earlier you can get to bed the better. This has always helped with my game. Also, have some carbs , like oatmeal about an hour or more before you start playing and throw some banana's to the mix when you are playing. You can also try pushing through the pain for 4 days consecutively and take a 3 days break, that is typically what works for me. A 3 day break is sure to restore your small muscle tears , you can figure out your optimal rest frequency , but different strokes for different folks , as they say :)

Shuki
03-25-2016, 07:59 PM
@Shuki : To start with, get a decent 7-8 hours sleep , the earlier you can get to bed the better. This has always helped with my game. Also, have some carbs , like oatmeal about an hour or more before you start playing and throw some banana's to the mix when you are playing. You can also try pushing through the pain for 4 days consecutively and take a 3 days break, that is typically what works for me. A 3 day break is sure to restore your small muscle tears , you can figure out your optimal rest frequency , but different strokes for different folks , as they say :)

I get a solid 8 hours of sleep every night, wake up with a bagel. I then run 2 miles every morning before taking a shower. My schedule is moderately packed with 12 credit hours of college, 20-30 hours of work per week and then table tennis on top of these things. I eat pretty damn healthy but BIGGEST reason for my slender/skinny/lanky physique is adderall.

Adderall Is to help me stay focused since I have adhd and my work is moderately dangerous so it helps me stop injuring myself. Adderall is also an appetite suppressant so I have to remind myself that it's time to eat, otherwise I'll just stay focused on my project that I'm working on and completely forget about eating. However since it is an appetite suppressant, I make sure to eat healthy ( because everything sounds equally edible to me while I'm on it ).

I need to find time to work on endurance and building up muscle more than anything else.


Edit: Also Need to make time to spend with the significant other.