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Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 01:19 PM
Hello.

Which is more preferable in the forehand loop, corkscrew or side top? I understand that it's quite difficult and not really practical or effective to produce pure topspin, and that good loopers hit the ball more on the side than on the back.

I don't think it's practical to produce a nearly pure corkscrew, unless there's some super advanced method of propelling the ball forward that I don't know of, but I've heard that a spin that's more towards corkscrew than side/top is preferable.

The way I define a corkscrew loop is a contact that's enough in the side to produce a topspin that's spinning downwards with a nearly or completely vertical spin axis, but it's offset so that it's not facing you. I think if you know what corkscrew spin is, you know what I mean.

The way I define a side/top is a contact where the ball is spinning away from you, but the vertical axis is crooked a bit to one side. So the spin could be facing you, but it won't be straight vertical

First off, if my definitions are wrong, correct me.

Secondly, what is the practical benefit of corkscrew vs side/top? I usually generate corkscrew, and I've found that when I screw up the contact, it's side/top, more towards sidespin.

One phenomena I've noticed is that a corkscrew loop (Although I doubt I'm really producing as much corkscrew as I think I am) will fly relatively straight and dip heavily, but it'll curve violently and dip to one side after it hits your opponent's side. It's quite satisfying, and looks really quality, but apart from the sudden adjustment needed for the opponent, are there any other benefits?

UpSideDownCarl
04-01-2016, 02:05 PM
The way I define a corkscrew loop is a contact that's enough in the side to produce a topspin that's spinning downwards with a nearly or completely vertical spin axis, but it's offset so that it's not facing you. I think if you know what corkscrew spin is, you know what I mean.

This actually isn't corkscrew. I know a lot of people use the term corkscrew and think they are using it incorrectly. Including guys I know and like.

Corkscrew is technically a spin where the axis is parallel to the flight of the ball and also parallel to the ground. Sort of how a football (American Football) is thrown with what is called a good spiral.

When a table tennis ball actually has real corkscrew spin, it will fly pretty straight. It won't curve left or right. It won't float up like chop and it won't curve down like topspin. The corkscrew spin keeps the ball going straight and the arc on the ball will be purely from gravity. Not from the spin. Although a corkscrew ball will fly straight and not arc, when it bounces, it will kick significantly to the left or right depending on the direction of the corkscrew spin.

Lets see if I can find the video that shows what corkscrew spin is. NextLevel posted it in the thread where Shuki said my loop was corkscrew.

In the video, the front to back "sidespin" is what is referred to as "corkscrew":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2vrVwjqktg

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 02:19 PM
That is the corkscrew spin I am talking about.

With all logic, if you have varying degrees of corkscrew, you will produce some dip along with the corkscrew effect upon hitting the table. A pure corkscrew won't be affected until it hits the table, correct?

A pure sidespin is a topspin flipped 90 degrees either side, right? So a side/top would be a topspin flipped anywhere from 1 degree to 89 degrees. But, you can also add some corkscrew to it, and that's what seems to usually come out in practice.

What is more desirable in a normal rallying shot, more corkscrew or more side/top? Is a pure corkscrew achievable while still making the shot travel forward with good pace?

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 02:19 PM
Carl, Archo,

In practical terms in table tennis, all corkscrew means is that the ball kicks sideways when it hits the table because of how it is spinning. What sidespin means is that the ball curves in flight in the air sideways.

Getting too technical about it is what causes you to think that people are using it incorrectly, but the ball spins in only one way and spin affects how the ball travels, so all these terms are really just used to describe elements of how how the ball is travelling, not everything about how it is travelling. The ball will obviously get pulled in the air by the Magnus effect towards wherever it is spinning and there is always the forward direction force as well as the change upon hitting the table, so looking for anything pure is fairly misguided.

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 02:25 PM
@NextLevel

I'm curious, because people keep talking about side/top loops and how corkscrew loops are superior.

I fail to see how it's possible to achieve a "pure" corkscrew with a table tennis bat, while still having any forward speed. Taking practical human mechanics into account, of course. At the same time, producing a side/top without any corkscrew seems like a real task and would perhaps be painful. So all shots will have varying degrees of all, and you can just change the ratio a bit.

I understand generating pure topspin in a loop, that's viable with human mechanics. I don't understand how you would generate a very significant corkscrew spin.

Maybe I just don't see the high level technique or something, though.

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 02:33 PM
@NextLevel

I'm curious, because people keep talking about side/top loops and how corkscrew loops are superior.

I fail to see how it's possible to achieve a "pure" corkscrew with a table tennis bat, while still having any forward speed. Taking practical human mechanics into account, of course. At the same time, producing a side/top without any corkscrew seems like a real task and would perhaps be painful. So all shots will have varying degrees of all, and you can just change the ratio a bit.

I understand generating pure topspin in a loop, that's viable with human mechanics. I don't understand how you would generate a very significant corkscrew spin.

Maybe I just don't see the high level technique or something, though.


IT's not high level technique. IT's just logic. Look at my loops in this video. The ball kicks sideways when it hits the table That's corkscrew. If it was sidespin, it would be curving in the air massively and that is not what the ball is doing. A true hook is sidespin.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zEZZJMdOis


Most pros loop with a kind of corkscrew. IT's just that when you hit the ball really hard, the spin effect is less visible but the real benefit of corkscrew is the spin avoidance. Plenty of the corkscrew comes from just making the right contact and folding over the forehead or just facing the paddle towards the opposite wall. It's just built into a good loop in a way many people who don't notice.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ0ot5NGEPk

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 02:38 PM
You are still generating more topspin than corkscrew, right? And perhaps a little bit of sidespin that doesn't really affect the flight too much? Or is the majority of the spin corkscrew?

I can remember looping onto someone's paddle, it flying up and spinning in a very significant corkscrew spin towards where I had swung. I don't understand how I'd be able to propel the ball forward sufficiently without tiling the spin axis, so I just assumed that the ball got moved around a bit after contact with his paddle.

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 02:40 PM
The most basic and obvious form of corkscrew in a TT stroke is called the "snake" or "wiggly" when people make the ball kick sideways by brushing the bottom of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-dkOTdiOZo

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 02:43 PM
You are still generating more topspin than corkscrew, right? And perhaps a little bit of sidespin that doesn't really affect the flight too much? Or is the majority of the spin corkscrew?

I can remember looping onto someone's paddle, it flying up and spinning in a very significant corkscrew spin towards where I had swung. I don't understand how I'd be able to propel the ball forward sufficiently without tiling the spin axis, so I just assumed that the ball got moved around a bit after contact with his paddle.

Like I said, the ball spins in only one way. If you continue to hang over how much of this or that the ball has, you will miss the practical point and get hung up on things that will not help your TT.

IF you mean that you can treat the ball like a topspin ball and have few problems if any at all, that is correct.

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 02:46 PM
I am specifically talking about the practical application.

So in practice, it's not really viable to try to strive to perform a "corkscrew loop" and it will happen as long as your arm mechanics are any good?

Playing against a topspin loop and a "corkscrew" loop is also not really different, just the way the ball bounces after contacting the table, but you yourself want to return it basically the same way?

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 02:56 PM
I am specifically talking about the practical application.

So in practice, it's not really viable to try to strive to perform a "corkscrew loop" and it will happen as long as your arm mechanics are any good?

Playing against a topspin loop and a "corkscrew" loop is also not really different, just the way the ball bounces after contacting the table, but you yourself want to return it basically the same way?

Yes, in practice, most proper loops that have good and complete form will end up as corkscrew if the right contact is made. Nothing extra needs to be done. Of course, sometimes, for amateurs who hit too hard into the back of the ball, it might help for them to be made conscious of the fact that there is no need to do so. By knowing that they don't always have to hit the ball on the face and can avoid the main spin equator or path of travel, new ideas may open up. But some players hit the ball this way consistently already and have never heard of corkscrew or spin avoidance etc. You may just figure out that there is a contact point in relation to the ball that works for you and you use it rather than hit the ball elsewhere.

In general, to return any ball in table tennis, you must rapidly identify the spinning equator, the amount of spin/speed and the ball trajectory to make proper contact. You know this already but I just want to re-stress the basics.

Usually, most of the same positive strokes will work, but of course, one must always be actively even if subconsciously reading the ball and trying to find the face of the motion and the spin equator and then trying to figure out what kind of return one wants to play and then adjust.

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 03:13 PM
I found as my loop mechanics became better and I moved away from a flat hit to a more brushing hit, (The video I posted was an example of a very bad day, though, so there I was smacking it right on the back) I also started contacting it on the side.

Then I heard about spin avoidance and started consciously doing it, and suddenly my spin increased because I wasn't eating everyone's topspin so much. I don't think the spin itself has increased much, just the amount of spinny shots, because I'm thinking "brush the side" instead of "hit the back".

I feel that my kill is still banging on the back of the ball, but my rallying strokes and fast topspins from close the table have really improved. Especially my penhold loops, because my mechanics with penhold contact very, very much on the side and I rarely smack it hard on the back.

Back in the day when I was even more terrible than I am now, I used to play a shot where I step around my backhand, squat very low and contact the ball with a short, rapid sweeping motion upwards and forwards, so the ball lands on their forehand corner. I stopped doing that because A: They kept returning it hard to my forehand and B: My backhand is way better now so I can achieve essentially the same thing.

Now I've started doing that again with slower, far spinnier loops with a lot of corkscrew on them, so the ball kicks away from the middle of the table. It's very effective, especially with penhold. It's a slow enough shot that I can recover without having amazing footwork, and the corkscrew kick draws them away from the table, so I can easily perform a kill to their wide backhand after. The game's a lot more fun now that I've consciously thought about this and pushed it a bit.

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 03:39 PM
Archo,

We play this game at a subconscious level, so even when we know what we are supposed to do, it takes forever to do it. And then when we practice a lot against a certain level of ball, we get shown up by a different kind or level of ball. IF you do a magic trick in slow motion, everyone can see the sleight of hand. But when it is done fast, then it is harder to pick up what is happening. TT is like that. Doing things faster is a skill, not just knowing them.

Hitting the back of the ball is easy because you are giving your racket maximum exposure to the ball. IT just keeps your game where it is for a long time, that's all, if you are using inverted.

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 04:12 PM
Ah yes, because I don't feel like making an entirely new thread:

@NextLevel
@UpSideDownCarl
@NDH
@Der_Echte
Whoever else I forgot ie: call your friends

Tell me what's wrong and what's not so wrong but needs improvement. Bear in mind it IS just a shadow, so it's probably a little nicer than what I actually perform in a match situation, but I think it's a bit more accurate than my last video.

Yes, I am sliding to the left. Socks and floor are slippery. It's not part of the technique, per se. :p

The rhythm is a bit off because I'm concentrating on how it feels. Although I could probably be more relaxed and smoother anyway.

I think my follow through is too much across my face, but I'm not tensing my arm or lifting my shoulder, and it seems to work. Even with my junk rubber, I can follow through like that and get spin without it flying off the edge.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E88PfrPufiI

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 04:46 PM
The paddle is probably starting much too low to loop a topspin ball but it looks like a good swing.

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 05:01 PM
The paddle is probably starting much too low to loop a topspin ball but it looks like a good swing.
This is a loop played on a more passive return. I'm not good enough to loop a very spinny shot with a bigger swing, unless it's backspin. Although I can do a very short counterloop near the table, it's very high as you mentioned.

When I play higher level people, I will need to adjust my stroke anyway, so it doesn't matter much: I care about the mechanics.

And talking about mechanics: Is it really a good swing? I'd not think a 2000-some player would think my swing is any good.

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 05:17 PM
Yes, it is a good swing and 2000 is not that high a level anyways. IT doesn't mean you can use it properly in a match or you know how to time the ball with it and it doesn't mean it is a world class swing with 100% efficiency. IT just means that it is a swing that has nothing majorly wrong with it that would prevent you from getting better as player as long as you learned to adjust it to the incoming ball. That's the way I think of strokes - I don't think of them as things that need to be done perfectly in very single detail for then to work. At the levels we play, people focus on a lot of things that don't matter. Whether you would miss or make the ball with your swing is NOT only about the quality of the swing. But to cut a long story short, the swing is a good swing.

Der_Echte
04-01-2016, 05:18 PM
You have the swing of a FH vs an underspin ball. Your FH vs incoming topspin will of course be more compact and forward... something you can still do.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 05:29 PM
@NextLevel

I'm happy I'm on the right track, then. Even if 2000 is not that high a level, it's still higher than mine and you won't get there with a bad foundation. Usually. :p

So even if my swing might not be amazing in it's results of spin, placement, efficiency and speed, it's still working for me and improving all the time, along with my footwork, timing and anticipation to play it. I can definitely play with this swing in match situations against similar skill opponents, so it's not that I can only shadow it.

@Der_Echte

I am guessing less body rotation and a little less follow through and backswing, with more forward action. A bit tighter, but same swing?

UpSideDownCarl
04-01-2016, 10:08 PM
Here are my thoughts on the term corkscrew.

First off, NextLevel has given such good information that the information was worth it.

Second off, our only disagreement is a semantic one. If we are just using the word to mean slightly different things, I am not going to worry about it.

But here is how I would parse things out myself.

A vertical axis is one kind of side spin. It is rare for this to occur in a pure form in table tennis just as it is rare to have any axis of spin be geometrically squared to 90 degrees in any plane. A front to back axis is also a side spin and the effects of this kind of sidespin are very different from the vertical axis version.

In the flight of a ball, there is only one axis of spin and it can be at any angle.

A loop with sidespin will curve and dip. Regardless of which version of sidespin or what the exact angle of axis is, a loop with sidespin will curve and dip (in referring to a ball curving down I usually use the ter: arc). Most loops with sidespin will curve to some extent and also kick to the side to some extent.

For me to consider the term corkscrew as a useful term, it would have to be close enough to that front to back axis to display the major characteristics of that axis of spin. And if it displayed those characteristics I wouldn't consider the shot a loop because part of the characteristics of the forward to back axis of spin is that the spin will not pull it up or down, and the spin will not cause the ball to curve in the air much. The arc on this kind of ball is caused by gravity not the Magnus effect. So the main feature of this shot would be that the ball would fly fairly straight and kick to the side in an exaggerated manner. The video with the lob that really kicks to the side, that is what I would call a corkscrew ball.

But a loop that curves a bit, arcs and kicks to the side a bit....I would just call that a loop or a sidespin loop.

Further characteristics of a corkscrew ball: the term spin avoidance has been used. And I know that NextLevel knows what he means by spin avoidance. But I get the sense that Archo may not entirely understand it.

On a backspin ball, contact on the side of the ball, near either point of the axis of spin, would be useful spin avoidance. On a sidespin loop that has a lot of curve, spin avoidance would mean covering the topspin enough while hitting the INSIDE of the ball for a fade shot. Because that is the easier side of the axis to get your racket on.

Often when someone hooks to me, instead of spin avoidance I go right to where the spin is strongest and hook back the incoming hook which actually gets me massive hook. When I do this shot I will direct the ball towards the BH side but it will still end up leaving the FH side of the table before the end-line.

What am I trying to say: spin avoidance obviously ends up relying on a fairly accurate read of spin.

Spin avoidance for a true corkscrew, that would be to just contact the back of the ball. But if you misread corkscrew and read it as the other kind of side spin or as topspin you are going to be in a world of trouble.

If you misread a corkscrew as a sidespin loop and try to do a fade loop and are compensating for side and top, and trying for spin avoidance, your ball will go straight down as if the ball was massive backspin. This is because of the fact that the inside of the ball on a corkscrew ball IS ACTUALLY heavy backspin. Now, to that same ball that I will often just go right at the sidespin, the outside of the ball will be pure top. And the ball will go straight up.

As I understand the kind of spin I am talking about, the main value of it would be in serving. If you can do a good corkscrew serve, and a good regular sidespin serve and make them look somewhat similar, if you mix these well, you can drive your opponent crazy. If you give him the corkscrew serve and he reads it as the other side, and touches the the inside of the spin for spin avoidance, the ball will go straight down because that is the backspin side. If he starts reading the ball as corkscrew and then you switch it to the other side/top, the ball will shoot up and to the side because it was the other kind of side/top. But the corkscrew really bounces like a topspin ball. And the kick to the side at the pace of a serve really looks like curve in the air. So, the few people who can make a REAL corkscrew serve have a real powerful weapon as long as their opponent is high enough level to read it as side top. [emoji2]

Michael Landers taught me all that I just explained when he taught me his corkscrew serve.

That corkscrew serve, when I use it against my sister who is maybe 1100, she has no trouble returning it if she can adjust to the lateral curve and put her racket on the ball.

But serving that same serve to a guy who is 2500-2600, after he missed the second one, I asked if he knew what spin it was. He acted like it was a stupid question and said it was side top. And I just said, "okay." Two more and he figured it out and asked how come I could do that. [emoji2]


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 11:04 PM
Here are my thoughts on the term corkscrew.

First off, NextLevel has given such good information that the information was worth it.

Second off, our only disagreement is a semantic one. If we are just using the word to mean slightly different things, I am not going to worry about it.

But here is how I would parse things out myself.

A vertical axis is one kind of side spin. It is rare for this to occur in a pure form in table tennis just as it is rare to have any axis of spin be geometrically squared to 90 degrees in any plane. A front to back axis is also a side spin and the effects of this kind of sidespin are very different from the vertical axis version.

In the flight of a ball, there is only one axis of spin and it can be at any angle.

A loop with sidespin will curve and dip. Regardless of which version of sidespin or what the exact angle of axis is, a loop with sidespin will curve and dip (in referring to a ball curving down I usually use the ter: arc). Most loops with sidespin will curve to some extent and also kick to the side to some extent.

For me to consider the term corkscrew as a useful term, it would have to be close enough to that front to back axis to display the major characteristics of that axis of spin. And if it displayed those characteristics I wouldn't consider the shot a loop because part of the characteristics of the forward to back axis of spin is that the spin will not pull it up or down, and the spin will not cause the ball to curve in the air much. The arc on this kind of ball is caused by gravity not the Magnus effect. So the main feature of this shot would be that the ball would fly fairly straight and kick to the side in an exaggerated manner. The video with the lob that really kicks to the side, that is what I would call a corkscrew ball.

But a loop that curves a bit, arcs and kicks to the side a bit....I would just call that a loop or a sidespin loop.

Further characteristics of a corkscrew ball: the term spin avoidance has been used. And I know that NextLevel knows what he means by spin avoidance. But I get the sense that Archo may not entirely understand it.

On a backspin ball, contact on the side of the ball, near either point of the axis of spin, would be useful spin avoidance. On a sidespin loop that has a lot of curve, spin avoidance would mean covering the topspin enough while hitting the INSIDE of the ball for a fade shot. Because that is the easier side of the axis to get your racket on.

Often when someone hooks to me, instead of spin avoidance I go right to where the spin is strongest and hook back the incoming hook which actually gets me massive hook. When I do this shot I will direct the ball towards the BH side but it will still end up leaving the FH side of the table before the end-line.

What am I trying to say: spin avoidance obviously ends up relying on a fairly accurate read of spin.

Spin avoidance for a true corkscrew, that would be to just contact the back of the ball. But if you misread corkscrew and read it as the other kind of side spin or as topspin you are going to be in a world of trouble.

If you misread a corkscrew as a sidespin loop and try to do a fade loop and are compensating for side and top, and trying for spin avoidance, your ball will go straight down as if the ball was massive backspin. This is because of the fact that the inside of the ball on a corkscrew ball IS ACTUALLY heavy backspin. Now, to that same ball that I will often just go right at the sidespin, the outside of the ball will be pure top. And the ball will go straight up.

As I understand the kind of spin I am talking about, the main value of it would be in serving. If you can do a good corkscrew serve, and a good regular sidespin serve and make them look somewhat similar, if you mix these well, you can drive your opponent crazy. If you give him the corkscrew serve and he reads it as the other side, and touches the the inside of the spin for spin avoidance, the ball will go straight down because that is the backspin side. If he starts reading the ball as corkscrew and then you switch it to the other side/top, the ball will shoot up and to the side because it was the other kind of side/top. But the corkscrew really bounces like a topspin ball. And the kick to the side at the pace of a serve really looks like curve in the air. So, the few people who can make a REAL corkscrew serve have a real powerful weapon as long as their opponent is high enough level to read it as side top. [emoji2]

Michael Landers taught me all that I just explained when he taught me his corkscrew serve.

That corkscrew serve, when I use it against my sister who is maybe 1100, she has no trouble returning it if she can adjust to the lateral curve and put her racket on the ball.

But serving that same serve to a guy who is 2500-2600, after he missed the second one, I asked if he knew what spin it was. He acted like it was a stupid question and said it was side top. And I just said, "okay." Two more and he figured it out and asked how come I could do that. [emoji2]


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

There are a couple of things I think you are missing.

First of all, corkscrew makes the ball dip just like topspin. It gives the ball a tight arc just like topspin does (see American football, with its relatively low level of spin). The main difference is that Topspin propels the ball forward while corkscrew propels the ball forward in the direction of the rotation. There is also a linear force applied to the ball from the force of the racket contact this is why you can't get pure corkscrew (the spin is perfectly out of sync with the direction of the motion). You can get pure topspin, sidespin and backspin. Why you don't believe pure sidespin is not possible, I am not sure, but in my mind, it clearly is.

Sidespin makes the ball curve in the air. Sidespin, however, does not make the ball dip. Look at the killerspin video for the difference between corkscrew (deviation) and sidespin (lateral) spin. People often fail to distinguish between the two. You seem to consider both sidespin but the first is horizontal axis, the second is vertical axis.

The reason why you can get deceptive with corkscrew on serves is because the spin effect is higher and the ball speed is lower. IT has far less to do with the nature of the spin than you think it does.

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 11:06 PM
Your story reminds me of how I learned all kinds of fancy serves, but got worse results because people at my level can't read serves anyway unless they've been talking to me and training with me, so they did a pretty decent job at returning more "advanced" spins without huge problems.

Meanwhile, the simple spins like a lot of topspin that's very evident or a lot of backspin that's very evident is what brings the trouble. It's pretty funny, because serving a very obvious serve to a higher level player will just get it killed if he's not feeling nice. ;)

Also, Carl, scroll up. Anything screwed up with my swing?


@NextLevel

My thoughts as well.

Corkscrew is basically just a "topspin" to the side. There is a counteracting force that is "backspin", but to my physics understanding, the reason the ball does not float and instead dips is because there is no air being pushed directly into the spin axis, like with a backspin. The pressure zones are different.

At the same time, it won't dip as hard as topspin, I believe. Because the topspin has different areas of pressure due to the air being pushed into the ball, but that's not there with a corkscrew.


It's really simple and I think NL has the right idea. It only matters what direction the ball is spinning relative to where it's travelling.

I am probably wrong in some things, but I have done quite a lot of work in aerodynamics and vehicular engineering. So the idea of aerodynamically generated pressure zones is not exactly alien.

Shuki
04-01-2016, 11:16 PM
If you can't make a brushing loop stroke with very little sidespin, there's an issue. At the seemiller training clinic I went to he was all about, SPIN SPIN SPIN. But he also wanted it to be as pure of a topspin as possible. Once you're able to consistently do JUST TOP spin without the side. THEN you should work on applying the side with it.

Sure you can skip this step and get to having a more sidespin loop naturally and never having a straight topspin, but you'll lack the knowledge you should have gained along the way. The way my wrist is "cocked downward" I naturally had a lot of sidespin on my strokes and it was rough trying to get rid of it.

One of the comments carl made when hitting with me was that he was suprised how little I was hooking the ball even though my wrist was cocked the way it was.



I believe, in my opinion, if you're trying to move from a less flat to a more brushing stroke, you shouldn't be having sidespin with your brush stroke quite yet. Work on consistency one step at a time. If you can't get rid of the side, there will be issues in the long run.

We've read nextlevel talk about how getting the sidespin is a higher level stroke and it makes things easier to attack at times. But I can guarantee at his level he's ALSO able to produce a stroke WITHOUT the sidespin.


edit: I'm not going to comment on strokes like the video you posted, because what I believe is correct is different than most players. So anything I say about your mirror stroke you can just ignore. If I were to say something about it, which I urge you ignore since most players will disagree, is that you don't lose sight of your paddle. it goes behind your back, sight is lost.

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 11:23 PM
When I'm practicing my "normal shot", and it goes into the net, it's pretty much "pure" topspin. My "spinny loop" is also "pure" topspin.

The way I used to contact, sometimes I accidentally produced sidespin. Now with the form shown in the video a page back, I can produce sidespin and topspin, reliably.

It's not that I never knew how to produce spin, except maybe a big hook shot. I'm just working on actually spinning more.

Normally, I will loop with little sidespin unless I'm deliberately doing it. All my shots have some kind of corkscrew to them, though, but I don't think it's excessive unless I exaggerate it.

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 11:25 PM
If you can't make a brushing loop stroke with very little sidespin, there's an issue. At the seemiller training clinic I went to he was all about, SPIN SPIN SPIN. But he also wanted it to be as pure of a topspin as possible. Once you're able to consistently do JUST TOP spin without the side. THEN you should work on applying the side with it.

Sure you can skip this step and get to having a more sidespin loop naturally and never having a straight topspin, but you'll lack the knowledge you should have gained along the way. The way my wrist is "cocked downward" I naturally had a lot of sidespin on my strokes and it was rough trying to get rid of it.

One of the comments carl made when hitting with me was that he was suprised how little I was hooking the ball even though my wrist was cocked the way it was.



I believe, in my opinion, if you're trying to move from a less flat to a more brushing stroke, you shouldn't be having sidespin with your brush stroke quite yet. Work on consistency one step at a time. If you can't get rid of the side, there will be issues in the long run.

We've read nextlevel talk about how getting the sidespin is a higher level stroke and it makes things easier to attack at times. But I can guarantee at his level he's ALSO able to produce a stroke WITHOUT the sidespin.

Shuki, these things are sometimes semantics. I posted two videos on the thread in a post, one with my corkscrew demo and the other with two higher level players. Are those two players hitting top or cork? Either is right, depending on what you are focusing on.

Danny Seemiller Sr once said that a good loop should contain 15% sidespin. Huh? I am very sure he meant deviation/cork spin and not lateral/sidespin, but who cares?

What some people do is hook the ball in a way that creates blocking inconsistencies - you can't even pretend to treat their ball like topspin.

But for reasons I have already mentioned, you can treat a corkscrew ball largely like topspin. IT's just a different spin axis. Hooking sidespin is not the same as corkscrew sidespin. The people who get hooking sidespin tend to stroke the ball on the side and push forward. Those who get cork hit the ball on the side and come over the top. Different motions produce different results.

Shuki
04-01-2016, 11:28 PM
Shuki, these things are sometimes semantics. I posted two videos on the thread in a post, one with my corkscrew demo and the other with two higher level players. Are those two players hitting top or cork? Either is right, depending on what you are focusing on.

Danny Seemiller Sr once said that a good loop should contain 15% sidespin. Huh? I am very sure he meant deviation/cork spin and not lateral/sidespin, but who cares?

What some people do is hook the ball in a way that creates blocking inconsistencies - you can't even pretend to treat their ball like topspin.

But for reasons I have already mentioned, you can treat a corkscrew ball largely like topspin. IT's just a different spin axis. Hooking sidespin is not the same as corkscrew sidespin. The people who get hooking sidespin tend to stroke the ball on the side and push forward. Those who get cork hit the ball on the side and come over the top. Different motions produce different results.

I'm talking about development. He wants as pure of topspin as possible for development. 100% topspin if possible. Looking for the notes packet he gave me at his clinic, I'll post a picture as soon as I can find it.


edit:
me: still have your seemiller notes packet? from our clinic?
other person that went: Yea
me: can you send a picture of the part that says to make it as pure of a topspin as you c (https://www.facebook.com/drew.angell)an while developing before moving on to any sidespin
me: or that whole page actually
him: yea later


or that whole page

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 11:29 PM
In my lowly opinion, I don't think you can really say that a good loop has this or that % of sidespin on it. It depends on the application and the play style. But I understand what Seemiller means.

On the topic of producing hook: How exactly are you supposed to come across the side of the ball enough to really hook it, and still have a good follow through? Is it about when you contact the ball, or just where?

If I contact it on the side with my vertical motion, I just get cork. If I want a hook, do I change my motion?

Fades I understand. They're my go to 3rd ball kill, and the simplest sidespin IMO.

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 11:32 PM
We've read nextlevel talk about how getting the sidespin is a higher level stroke and it makes things easier to attack at times. But I can guarantee at his level he's ALSO able to produce a stroke WITHOUT the sidespin.

.
IT's all about tradeoffs. The problem with pure topspin contact is where you make it and how to produce it when dealing with incoming heavy spin already on the ball. It's all semantics anyway. I just hope the posts are helping anyone understand spin avoidance.

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 11:34 PM
I'm talking about development. He wants as pure of topspin as possible for development. 100% topspin if possible. Looking for the notes packet he gave me at his clinic, I'll post a picture as soon as I can find it.


edit:
me: still have your seemiller notes packet? from our clinic?
other person that went: Yea
me: can you send a picture of the part that says to make it as pure of a topspin as you c (https://www.facebook.com/drew.angell)an while developing before moving on to any sidespin
me: or that whole page actually
him: yea later


or that whole page





He gave that clinic in Philly once. Here's my take.

I know people who hook the ball. IT's all about their stroke. You don't want your base stroke to be a hook.

But a hook is not a corkscrew.

Shuki
04-01-2016, 11:38 PM
He gave that clinic in Philly once. Here's my take.

I know people who hook the ball. IT's all about their stroke. You don't want your base stroke to be a hook.

But a hook is not a corkscrew.

regardless of hook vs corkscrew, you think a player going from more of a flat hit should initially be trying to do some sort of sidespin on the ball when they start going for more of a grazing stroke?

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 11:41 PM
I play a guy who chops the ball pretty heavily, for my level. It's probably not that much spin, but it's enough to make it go into the net if you don't take care.

Against him, I like to contact with a brush stroke just a bit to the side, with the bat yawed a bit. The success rate for such a shot is high and the spin is great. Meanwhile, if I go and "pure" topspin it, it'll more likely go into the net. So I think there spin avoidance is helping me.

At the same time, I like to take half long, not so spinny shots with a very brushing contact along the back of the ball with "pure" topspin, because I can achieve it due to there not being much spin to avoid. A variation would probably complicate things.

Also, I lied at one point. I forgot that my penhold short brush loop has a lot of hook if I want. Meanwhile I find fading easier with shakehand, but hooks are just impractical for me.

Shuki, I can produce spin. I am incorporating more spin into my game: deliberately spinning more. I'm trying to stick to as pure topspin as I can when practicing my shot, for simplicity sake, but I can handle sidespins easily and can use them to draw people out and get them to return where I want.

At the same time, I've done a lot more serve practice than most people at my level bother to do. So it might have something to do with it.

NextLevel
04-01-2016, 11:42 PM
regardless of hook vs corkscrew, you think a player going from more of a flat hit should initially be trying to do some sort of sidespin on the ball when they start going for more of a grazing stroke?

They should be trying to make the ball go to their target. They should be trying to produce a ball they can reliable read. How they produce that ball is up to them. IT's more likely to be pure topspin because they will not be facing heavy spin when starting out and that need to be able to aim the ball first.

ttmonster
04-01-2016, 11:46 PM
Corkscrew : Spin axis is horizontal and the direction of spin is not aligned to to direction of the translation motion . The magnus effect will be different and it will more likely move like a Shane Warne Legspin in cricket. ( even though the effect in cricket is magnified by the difference in friction between the two sides )

Here is a video, apologies for the inferior quality


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jewgvLm8Ep8

Side spin is where the spin axis is more vertical and the spin is in the direction of the motion so there is no "dip" from the spin but from gravity and it swerves in the air .


Is my understanding correct, guys ?

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 11:48 PM
Why do people keep misusing vertical? Or do I not get something?

A sidespin spins along the horizontal axis of the ground, right? A topspin spins along the vertical axis of the ground.

Vertical = up and down
Horizontal = left and right

I am taking the reference from the ground. Perhaps you are taking it from somewhere else.

Shuki
04-01-2016, 11:50 PM
They should be trying to make the ball go to their target. They should be trying to produce a ball they can reliable read. How they produce that ball is up to them. IT's more likely to be pure topspin because they will not be facing heavy spin when starting out and that need to be able to aim the ball first.

I think this is a style disagreement we're having more than anything. When I used to have more sidespin on the ball I was unable to make it more pure. What I found was the reason I had this sidespin was because it was simply easier for me to get the ball on the table against backspin. It was inhibiting me from developing proper footwork and proper rotation.

I couldn't understand for the life of me why my coach and danny also wanted me to have a pure topspin. I couldn't do it as consistently and it frustrated me to do a stroke I couldn't do at the time. But then as my stroke became "more correct" using more knees and body rotation it became quite clear to me that there was no amount of backspin that I couldn't loop with even a pure topspin stroke.

Now that training the pure topspin has given me better footwork and fundamentals, my coach has been having me add sidespin to my strokes for variation, not for ease of returning a ball to the table any easier.

Shuki
04-01-2016, 11:52 PM
Why do people keep misusing vertical? Or do I not get something?

A sidespin spins along the horizontal axis of the ground, right? A topspin spins along the vertical axis of the ground.

Vertical = up and down
Horizontal = left and right

I am taking the reference from the ground. Perhaps you are taking it from somewhere else.


some people think of a vertical string going through the ball and the ball spinning on the string while you and I think of it as spinning along a line

Archosaurus
04-01-2016, 11:54 PM
I can also loop backspin with a pure topspin stroke. If I really want to spin it, that's what I'll go to. As long as the tangential speed of your racket is higher than the backspin's speed, it'll go onto the table. So brush fast.

I brought it up because I noticed the phenomena of backspin and topspin being easier to counter with a different contact.

Also, that makes sense. Never thought that people would reference it from the ball. I think it's better to take the direction of travel into account.

ttmonster
04-02-2016, 12:12 AM
Keyword ---> axis :)

Archosaurus
04-02-2016, 12:14 AM
Keyword ---> axis :)
Shuki and myself are referencing the ground's axis'. Seeing as we don't have much experience playing table tennis in zero G conditions, it works pretty well.

ttmonster
04-02-2016, 12:21 AM
Dude, smart as you are spin does not change with gravity :) .... may be you are missing some basic physics classes, axis of spin remains the same regardless https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotation

UpSideDownCarl
04-02-2016, 12:39 AM
The axis of topspin is parallel to the ground and left to right (perpendicular to the flight of the ball). The axis of backspin is the same axis as topspin but the ball spins the opposite way.

The axis of one sidespin is vertical. The axis goes from the top of the ball to the bottom of the ball. The spin is on the side.

The axis of the other sidespin is parallel to the ground and parallel to the flight of the ball. So the axis passes through the very front and the very back of the ball.

See that video I posted that shows the 4 theoretical axes of spin.

Next subject: If you are hitting topspin and you are taking the ball early, a little in front of you, you should naturally--without thinking about, without consideration for what kind of spin you are trying to create or what part of the ball to try to contact--if you take the ball early and your racket is in a neutral position, you should/would contact the outside of the ball and therefore generate some side with your top.

So, if you are learning from someone who tells you you should contact the ball early, they may also be teaching you to contact the side and get some side top.

But where a beginner should contact the ball and what kind of spin they "should" try and generate, I guess that would go down to teaching philosophy.

And my opinion is, any teaching philosophy that is too rigid and has come to conclusions before the person learning is in front of the person with the philosophy will tend to go a little wrong since we are all so unique and have such different needs as we learn.

But I definitely know a coach who teaches brand new beginners third ball attack vs backspin, contacting the outside of the ball, playing aggressive on all strokes, drive loop rather than brush, and he has gotten more than one player to 2600+. So, sometimes different things work.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel
04-02-2016, 01:12 AM
Shuki and myself are referencing the ground's axis'. Seeing as we don't have much experience playing table tennis in zero G conditions, it works pretty well.

Archo - he said axis, not equator. Listen to the man. IT's easy to fight over meaningless stuff.

NextLevel
04-02-2016, 01:15 AM
The axis of topspin is parallel to the ground and left to right (perpendicular to the flight of the ball). The axis of backspin is the same axis as topspin but the ball spins the opposite way.

The axis of one sidespin is vertical. The axis goes from the top of the ball to the bottom of the ball. The spin is on the side.

The axis of the other sidespin is parallel to the ground and parallel to the flight of the ball. So the axis passes through the very front and the very back of the ball.

See that video I posted that shows the 4 theoretical axes of spin.

Next subject: If you are hitting topspin and you are taking the ball early, a little in front of you, you should naturally--without thinking about, without consideration for what kind of spin you are trying to create or what part of the ball to try to contact--if you take the ball early and your racket is in a neutral position, you should/would contact the outside of the ball and therefore generate some side with your top.

So, if you are learning from someone who tells you you should contact the ball early, they may also be teaching you to contact the side and get some side top.

But where a beginner should contact the ball and what kind of spin they "should" try and generate, I guess that would go down to teaching philosophy.

And my opinion is, any teaching philosophy that is too rigid and has come to conclusions before the person learning is in front of the person with the philosophy will tend to go a little wrong since we are all so unique and have such different needs as we learn.

But I definitely know a coach who teaches brand new beginners third ball attack vs backspin, contacting the outside of the ball, playing aggressive on all strokes, drive loop rather than brush, and he has gotten more than one player to 2600+. So, sometimes different things work.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

I would add that you would generate some "sidespin" if you contacted the ball late as well.

NextLevel
04-02-2016, 01:18 AM
I think this is a style disagreement we're having more than anything. When I used to have more sidespin on the ball I was unable to make it more pure. What I found was the reason I had this sidespin was because it was simply easier for me to get the ball on the table against backspin. It was inhibiting me from developing proper footwork and proper rotation.

I couldn't understand for the life of me why my coach and danny also wanted me to have a pure topspin. I couldn't do it as consistently and it frustrated me to do a stroke I couldn't do at the time. But then as my stroke became "more correct" using more knees and body rotation it became quite clear to me that there was no amount of backspin that I couldn't loop with even a pure topspin stroke.

Now that training the pure topspin has given me better footwork and fundamentals, my coach has been having me add sidespin to my strokes for variation, not for ease of returning a ball to the table any easier.

The main reason you couldn't get topspin was probably because you weren't swinging in a straight line, if I had to bet. That's the main thing I notice with people who have this problem - their strokes tend to be shallow and finish low (across the body) habitually.

Again, you can treat most of my loops a topspin loops. IF you looked at the players I posted, you would treat their loops as topspin loops. But a large part of this is semantics.

UpSideDownCarl
04-02-2016, 02:06 AM
Why do people keep misusing vertical? Or do I not get something?

A sidespin spins along the horizontal axis of the ground, right? A topspin spins along the vertical axis of the ground.

In all this, I just got a laugh. Archo doesn't actually know what the word axis means. A flat surface that is not spinning has no axis. The surface of a ball that is spinning is not the axis unless it is one of the points of the axis. And both of those points on the surface of the ball that the axis passes through ARE ACTUALLY BARELY MOVING. That is how spin avoidance actually works.

And if you don't know what the word axis means, there is no way you could understand the term spin avoidance.

Definition: "Axis: an imaginary line about which a body rotates. The earth revolves on its axis once every 24 hours."

That comes from Apple's dictionary on this computer.

The earth's axis runs from the the north pole to the south pole. It is not exactly north and south so the axis is slightly angled and the sidespin of the earth has a little bit of corkscrew in it and that sort of explains the behavior of weirdos like me and kukamonga who like to cause trouble.

The axel of a car wheel, the very central point of the axel is actually the axis of spin for the car wheel.

Hopefully you now understand what the word axis means. But this really does make all your previous statements really, just that much more entertaining. Especially how hard it seems that you are trying to sound like you understand the concepts and how now, all of a sudden you are looking for spin a avoidance and are getting more sidespin in your loops. Amazing how fast this stuff turns into experiences.

Well, no harm done. But, I am still laughing like a giddy little girl. Makes me want to go back and reread all those comments. :)

This right here is totally priceless:

"A sidespin spins along the horizontal axis of the ground, right? A topspin spins along the vertical axis of the ground."

The horizontal axis of the ground!!!! The vertical axis of the ground!!!! I think I may have just seen an axis fly past me off the wall and that axis was in the horizontal axis of the wall. Yep the vertical wall's horizontal axis. Nope, the wall wasn't spinning at the time. Just the axis.

UpSideDownCarl
04-02-2016, 02:25 AM
Shuki and myself are referencing the ground's axis'.

Okay, why not, this has nothing to do with table tennis. And perhaps it is bad form in light of my previous comment where I am goofing around and poking fun. So, sorry.

But since spelling and grammar have come up in the past....well, here goes:

Myself, is a reflexive term. What that means it is supposed to refer back to the subject. It is supposed to mean the same thing as the subject.

For example:

I hit myself by accident. In this sentence the the reflexive pronoun "myself" refers to the subject "I" and "myself" is the object of the verb "hit".

"Shuki and myself" technically incorrect usage. Myself can never be the subject of a sentence because then it could not refer back to the subject.

This should read: "Shuki and I". But I do have a feeling that Shuki is not referring to the "ground's axis". :)

Okay. None of this really matters because we knew what you meant. And I certainly make plenty of mistakes when I am writing on the forum. This is a forum for learning. So, hopefully the dictionary definition of axis helped and hopefully the grammatical rules for reflexives help me not to make a mistake:

He hits with powerful topspin like myself. (totally incorrect usage). He hits with powerful topspin like me. (correct usage; not true, but correct usage).

For it to be true, it should read:

He hits with powerful topspin like Der_Echte.

Der_Echte
04-02-2016, 03:36 AM
Haha since when did I get credited with the machine man power topspin... I just thought I was extremely heavy topspin in general haha.

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Der_Echte
04-02-2016, 03:39 AM
OK... I guess if I get a no spin long return or a medium topspin I go loop kill lust crazy...

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Shuki
04-02-2016, 03:43 AM
Vertical axis means the ball isn't moving, horizontal axis means the ball enters a the 4th dimension before reappearing on the table with a new spin.

Glad we cleared that, let's move on


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ttmonster
04-02-2016, 07:52 AM
don't know if this was quoted earlier, but this seems like a definitive explanation on corkscrew and spin avoidance

https://thoughtsontabletennis.wordpress.com/2014/02/21/spin-evasion/

NextLevel
04-02-2016, 01:15 PM
I think this is a style disagreement we're having more than anything. When I used to have more sidespin on the ball I was unable to make it more pure. What I found was the reason I had this sidespin was because it was simply easier for me to get the ball on the table against backspin. It was inhibiting me from developing proper footwork and proper rotation.

I couldn't understand for the life of me why my coach and danny also wanted me to have a pure topspin. I couldn't do it as consistently and it frustrated me to do a stroke I couldn't do at the time. But then as my stroke became "more correct" using more knees and body rotation it became quite clear to me that there was no amount of backspin that I couldn't loop with even a pure topspin stroke.

Now that training the pure topspin has given me better footwork and fundamentals, my coach has been having me add sidespin to my strokes for variation, not for ease of returning a ball to the table any easier.

So there is a lot of stuff in here that I didn't address. I never saw your original sidespin stroke. But it is important to be able to hit topspin because topspin dips and travels straight. Sidespin requires touch - you can't hit it hard - you need to rely on the incoming backspin. Corkscrew is somewhere in the middle, but more on the topspin side. There is a guy I mentor and he has a strong backhand opener that just hooks with real sidespin (lateral), not cork, so it curves in the air and after the bounce. It is his best shot. But the problem with hook shots is that they fall apart when you hit them hard. This is because the sidespin is not going to bring the ball down.

Spin avoidance topspin (which is what I am doing in the video I first posted, though very slowly so you can see the spin effect and not against an incoming ball, so you don't get the real impact) does not have this problem as significantly - obviously, pure topspin has the most dip, but it is all about compromises and how many strokes you want to learn as an amateur player. So I had to work on teaching him a different contact so that he could have loops that dipped more consistently if he needed to drive the ball. That's the real reason why you need a topspin type stroke, IMO - for security of direction and dip. What I call cork is often a result of trying to get topspin but getting it with spin avoidance.

You may have heard me say this elsewhere, but no one can or should practice swinging at the ball in one way or at one speed all the time. You need to experiment with swings to understand your stroke and being able to produce topspin is a part of that. Being able to make the ball go straight is a part of that.

Finally, what I will say is in addition to reading Carl's post about coaching philosophies, realize that as spin gets heavier, the game gets more interesting and plenty of stuff that you do will break down if you are doing them as you think you are. That's when you need things that don't break down when you are in trouble. I don't know whether you are doing a pure topspin stroke when looping heavy backspin or using some spin avoidance. Many people think they are doing things that they are not doing - you may be getting topspin with spin avoidance. I don't know how consistent your opener is under pressure (it's one thing to be hitting balls against opponents/coaches when you can estimate the spin and vs opponents in a tournament where you don't know their spin level). Over time, you need to build more and more things into your technique and game play for simplifying it.

Let's look at the best forehand vs. backspin in the world. Note whether his racket stays in view on the backswing. Note whether he is producing pure topspin on most of his loops, especially the slow ones. He has far more racket head speed than any of us. So why is he not producing pure topspin?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-AAIShYfZc

Archosaurus
04-02-2016, 03:10 PM
The way we use the axis word in Finnish can sometimes be a bit weird compared to English, so I was thinking in terms of a 3D chart, with the Z-direction being the ball's direction of travel and so on. I'm probably misusing the term.

It's just semantics, because I think we're all talking about the same thing, and the reference points don't just suddenly start changing depending on what you call them.

UpSideDownCarl
04-02-2016, 04:07 PM
The way we use the axis word in Finnish can sometimes be a bit weird compared to English, so I was thinking in terms of a 3D chart, with the Z-direction being the ball's direction of travel and so on. I'm probably misusing the term.

It's just semantics, because I think we're all talking about the same thing, and the reference points don't just suddenly start changing depending on what you call them.

Sorry dude. This is stupid. It would be better for you to just say, "oh, wow, you are right. I guess I don't know what the word axis means."

But in Finish English the word axis means something else???? Come on. That is just as stupid as it gets. It's okay not to know something. It is better to admit that you don't know something than to pretend which really keeps getting you in trouble. We'll all be way more understanding of you mistaking a word in a different language for something else than if you try and pretend some weird silliness to play it off.

Archosaurus
04-02-2016, 06:30 PM
What I mean is that I don't know what exactly axis means and doesn't mean in English. When it can be used and so on.

ttmonster
04-02-2016, 09:34 PM
https://translate.google.com/#en/fi/axis

What I mean is that I don't know what exactly axis means and doesn't mean in English. When it can be used and so on.

Archosaurus
04-02-2016, 09:39 PM
Axis translated to Finnish, according to Google translate, means axle or center line. Axle can refer to a rotational axis from a fixed point, like a hinge.

The way I think of it in this context is:

"a fixed reference line for the measurement of coordinates."

The reference point is from the player who struck the ball. Sidespin would be a rotation in the direction of the x-axis, and topspin would be a rotation in the direction of the y-axis. The ball is travelling along the z-axis.

Is that wrong?

Shuki
04-02-2016, 10:09 PM
Arch. you're refering to planes. a ball spinning on vertical plane would be spinning on a horrizontal axis.

Archosaurus
04-02-2016, 10:19 PM
Let's say you have a string that's hanging. It would be a vertical plane with whatever dimensions it has, and a ball spinning around the string would be spinning on a horizontal axis.

Correct?

NextLevel
04-03-2016, 12:51 AM
No. It is spinning on a vertical axis. The string around which the ball is spinning is the axis.

Archosaurus
04-03-2016, 01:26 AM
So the string would be the vertical axis, but the ball is spinning on a horizontal plane?

Shuki
04-03-2016, 01:29 AM
So the string would be the vertical axis, but the ball is spinning on a horizontal plane?

yes.. not a sarcastic yes, but needed at least 5 characters so had a second period.

UpSideDownCarl
04-03-2016, 01:46 AM
So the string would be the vertical axis, but the ball is spinning on a horizontal plane?

I thought you would be able to figure out what the axis was from the video. But, I guess not.

Look at the definition I wrote already from the dictionary.

Stop pretending you know. It is better to say, "okay guys, for some reason I just don't get what the word axis actually means."

There is nothing wrong with not understanding something. But don't try and pretend you do because you are way off.

Here is the definition:


Definition: "Axis: an imaginary line about which a body rotates. The earth revolves on its axis once every 24 hours."

That comes from Apple's dictionary on this computer.

Let's see if some images can do what words have not been able to do:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160403/e8491ffcdad05b7694b939808247dc68.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160403/5e6125806e797b9642c0eb429a7a6ed9.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160403/fea82a0a39ee7f676623d2c347851275.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160403/376c929bee87ec80c70a740b9f2ff43a.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160403/8ad4d6c03cc0b4e238e354ae94a849cd.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160403/a0d43106a8be780399e73058ced0ce1d.jpg

Do any of these make it more clear what an axis is.

AN IMAGINARY LINE AROUND WHICH A BODY (in our case a ping pong ball) ROTATES.

So if the ball was spinning very fast and you could see the label of the ball spinning, and say, the axis was vertical and the label was at the top of the ball, the label would be just spinning around on top and you would kind of be able to see where the axis of spin was.

Der_Echte
04-03-2016, 01:46 AM
Shuki, if you wanted to be sarcastic, you coulda said "Yes, Virginia."

UpSideDownCarl
04-03-2016, 01:54 AM
Here, this video might help. The axel of the gyroscope is basically the axis of the spin of the rotating wheel of the gyroscope:


http://youtu.be/cquvA_IpEsA


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
04-03-2016, 02:08 AM
So my latest question was on the money.

Thanks for going through the work to teach me the definition.

NextLevel
04-03-2016, 04:11 AM
To be fair, it still messes me up sometimes. So I use the word equator to describe where the rotation is fastest so I don't get as confused anymore.

Shuki
04-03-2016, 04:27 AM
I too had a different idea of the definition of axis. Worst part of this is I've aced both my physics classes.

I'm better with memorizing formulas and applying them to a word problem than visualizing it I suppose


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