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Archosaurus
04-08-2016, 08:01 PM
Hello.

I know that a very wood-y slap sound is definitely not what you want when looping, but I've been wondering if less is more when it comes to spin.

Looking at professional players play, they very often make a sound I would describe as "medium", the normal kind of hitting sound. Yet they have a lot of spin. Take this video for example, at 26 and 27 seconds. The first shot is a forehand loop, the second a backhand. Notice the dramatic difference between the sound.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

Now, the backhand did go into the net, so perhaps nearly no sound doesn't indicate a very grazing contact but instead a bad contact outside of the sweet spot. That would conflict with my experience, because I've seen some really great spin being generated when the contact sound is seemingly nonexistant, and there is less spin when the noise is sharper and louder.

Is this sound a product of boosted high end rubber? Do you want a solid contact with sponge or a very, very grazing contact for spin? Is the sound dependent on the rubber?

Theory says that you should sink the ball into the sponge somewhat to spin it, but experience suggests otherwise.

Thanks.

Ilia Minkin
04-08-2016, 08:10 PM
Take this video for example, at 26 and 27 seconds.

I think that the second shot is non-representative because the timing was totally off, not just the hitting spot.

Archosaurus
04-08-2016, 08:13 PM
I think that the second shot is non-representative because the timing was totally off, not just the hitting spot.
That's true. It's hard to find a good example of what I mean. I think Timo Boll quite often loops how I describe it, with a soft nearly nonexistent sound.

All I know is, it at least appears to increase spin, but it's tremendously harder.

EDIT: Here is one from Pingskills. It's quiet enough, and it's a brush loop so it's bound to be spinny.

At about 1:40.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unFEjJCcJto


Does more racket head speed = more sound? Or is it always a byproduct of forward impact?

izra
04-08-2016, 09:33 PM
there are two different kinds of "noise" when hitting the ball. one is the sound when the ball hits the bat directly and you can hear the ball hitting the blade through the rubber. this is the kind of sound you want to avoid if you want to make a high spin shot. then there is the "crack" that is actually produced by the rubber when you make a shot that is very high in both spin and speed. to get the crack you have to 1) achieve very high bat speed 2) hit the ball at an angle 3) dig into the sponge.

the "crack" or the "click" was very common and easily achieved in speed glue days. today it's easier to get it with some softer rubber tensors. i don't tune so i'm not sure about that but i'm guessing tuning a rubber also makes the crack easier to achieve.

mquevedof
04-08-2016, 09:48 PM
I would describe a good contact as a high pitch, somewhat dampened if you use a wood blade... probably more towards the click sound described by izra.

The crack to me is when the ball sinks way down, and the ball contact the blade itself, does not necessarily mean the crack is the absence of spin, but a faster forward motion...

Hard to describe...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Archosaurus
04-08-2016, 10:17 PM
It's probably just perception, then. I've noticed that the best shots I've done are like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCRHeoIYEmI

Is this the sound you're talking about?

I wasn't entirely sure if it was just the rubber + sponge making this sound, or the wood, so I was trying to avoid it. I always had assumed that it had high speed AND high spin because people kept blocking these with the ball flying directly up nearly 90 degrees, but I wasn't convinced. Loopkilling like this was too easy, but I might just have been doing it right.

The silent brush loop is spinnier, correct? But a very rough sounding snappy contact still has adequate spin but the added benefit of loopkill pace?

Shuki
04-08-2016, 10:48 PM
70% contact, 30% spin for chinese forehand. lots of sound for high speed stroke.

my coach wouldn't call these forehand's a loop, she calls them "shot".

Archosaurus
04-08-2016, 10:51 PM
70% contact, 30% spin for chinese forehand. lots of sound for high speed stroke.

my coach wouldn't call these forehand's a loop, she calls them "shot".

So they're far less spinnier than a brush loop, and more akin to a drive, or is the topspin still very high but not quite as high?

Shuki
04-08-2016, 10:57 PM
So they're far less spinnier than a brush loop, and more akin to a drive, or is the topspin still very high but not quite as high?

not a lot of topspin on the forehand stroke he's doing. I'm sure there's videos of him brush looping out there too. returning a ball thats fast but more flat is harder to do than a fast ball with lots of spin.

It's harder to hit a flat shot against heavy spin though, what he's doing is very difficult compared to a brush loop.

Archosaurus
04-08-2016, 11:03 PM
not a lot of topspin on the forehand stroke he's doing. I'm sure there's videos of him brush looping out there too. returning a ball thats fast but more flat is harder to do than a fast ball with lots of spin.

It's harder to hit a flat shot against heavy spin though, what he's doing is very difficult compared to a brush loop.

Strange. I've found fast, spinny shots harder to return than completely flat fast shots. The shot comes in fast, and rebounds off the table even faster. Shouldn't that be overall more difficult to counter? Isn't that the reason why the Chinese play with a speed bias?

I've also found it far easier to kill a spinny shot with quality, than to brush it with quality. Then again I have far more practice killing shots than brushing them excessively, so perhaps it's personal preference. You have mentioned that you always like to brush the ball and it's even got you into problems with technique. I'm a bit of the opposite in that regard. :p

That's why I want to learn a very, very soft contact, though. The kind where you barely make any sound. I think the Chinese elite players are brushing more than we think, even with their high speed "shots".

Shuki
04-08-2016, 11:08 PM
Strange. I've found fast, spinny shots harder to return than completely flat fast shots. The shot comes in fast, and rebounds off the table even faster. Shouldn't that be overall more difficult to counter? Isn't that the reason why the Chinese play with a speed bias?

I've also found it far easier to kill a spinny shot with quality, than to brush it with quality. Then again I have far more practice killing shots than brushing them excessively, so perhaps it's personal preference. You have mentioned that you always like to brush the ball and it's even got you into problems with technique. I'm a bit of the opposite in that regard. :p

That's why I want to learn a very, very soft contact, though. The kind where you barely make any sound. I think the Chinese elite players are brushing more than we think, even with their high speed "shots".

At high level this changes, especially with the modern ball. There's no such thing as a ball so spinny that you can be confident in it not coming back.

I haven't played a ball with enough spin to scare me, but I've played flat shots that I can't get an angle on. If you're close to the table, and they hit a flat fast shot at you, it's probably hitting right near the edge. you don't have time to back up and go through the ball with some enough brush to take out all their emptiness. What angle would you get your racket at to get a flat ball over the net? if they spin the ball you judge the spin and then you can make light/soft brushing contact and always get it on. with a flat shot you have no angle to get right and then make a brushing soft brushing contact.

Ilia Minkin
04-08-2016, 11:10 PM
Listen to the sound of contact on Yan An's shots:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=97&v=CSBlghyDf3g

When somebody in a club hits a shot like that there is often a local "expert" lamenting "Spin the ball!!111" with a pissed-off intonation.


Strange. I've found fast, spinny shots harder to return than completely flat fast shots. The shot comes in fast, and rebounds off the table even faster.

That is true if you're in position to get that shot back. But if the ball is placed well, you have less time to move and react.


not a lot of topspin on the forehand stroke he's doing.
Can you measure the spin with your eyes? Even though the sound is high, he brushes the ball pretty hard.

izra
04-08-2016, 11:14 PM
Is this the sound you're talking about?

I wasn't entirely sure if it was just the rubber + sponge making this sound, or the wood, so I was trying to avoid it. I always had assumed that it had high speed AND high spin because people kept blocking these with the ball flying directly up nearly 90 degrees, but I wasn't convinced. Loopkilling like this was too easy, but I might just have been doing it right.

The silent brush loop is spinnier, correct? But a very rough sounding snappy contact still has adequate spin but the added benefit of loopkill pace?

yes, that would be it. the real test of your skill comes when the ball is low and has a lot of backspin.

Shuki
04-08-2016, 11:19 PM
I said 30% brush. surely that's a lot of spin still is at this high of a level compared to us mortals going for all out brush. But with the speed of the ball in compared to the spin makes it feel like a flat shot.

Archosaurus
04-08-2016, 11:25 PM
I am by no means a high level player, but I find it very easy to generate a very fast shot with a lot of arc, like Yan An is doing. I can't imagine landing a shot with that kind of pace if I don't spin it a lot, and a high brush soft shot is very easy and feels more like a block compared to that.

More so, I'm trying to find out if I can brush it even more and use my maximum speed to spin more than hit. Now I feel like I'm about 50/50 for speed/spin, but perhaps more of a spin bias without it being a slow brush loop is possible. Thus the contact harshness question.

Also, if I hit the ball into the net with my strong loop, even if the contact feels harsh, there's quite a lot of spin. It'll bounce a bit up and down the net and keep rolling.

If I miss my brush loop, it'll hop a bit more due to less pace, and I think there might be a little more spin but the difference is not exactly huge as you might think.

izra
04-08-2016, 11:30 PM
if it's a finishing shot i wouldn't worry about the spin as long as you are consistently hitting the table.

Archosaurus
04-08-2016, 11:32 PM
if it's a finishing shot i wouldn't worry about the spin as long as you are consistently hitting the table.
That is what I think too.

On the topic of a rallying shot though, like when you're looping someone's blocks and counterloops, would you want a softer contact and sound while still keeping good pace, or go with more pace and what feels and sounds like a harsher contact?


A part of me thinks the latter has both more speed AND more spin.

Also, neither is a lot more consistent unless I'm under a lot of pressure, but then I won't be playing aggressive shots anyway, I'm not that good. :p

izra
04-08-2016, 11:36 PM
simply ask yourself "why?", how would you benefit from doing something differently? if it would get your consistency up and maybe help your recovery, sure. if you are already consistent and able to recover then why?

however, when looking at such things you have to consider at least 1 level higher than yours. maybe you are able to easily put away shots from opponents at your level, but how about when someone better comes along?

Archosaurus
04-08-2016, 11:41 PM
simply ask yourself "why?", how would you benefit from doing something differently? if it would get your consistency up and maybe help your recovery, sure. if you are already consistent and able to recover then why?

however, when looking at such things you have to consider at least 1 level higher than yours. maybe you are able to easily put away shots from opponents at your level, but how about when someone better comes along?

Yes, exactly. I'm taking about what is effective and a good strategy vs better and better players. There has to be some kind of meta that we will end up with. Maybe I will need to spin more to pressure high level players, when only speed is not enough.

I am wondering if this harsh contact only works up to a certain level, then you need to start playing slower and brushier. It doesn't seem like it though, the trend I see is that people hit harder and harder with a bigger sound as they go up the level. They can't possibly be taking away spin for speed, so it has to be an increase in both.

izra
04-08-2016, 11:53 PM
on the pro level an aggressive shot that is only high in spin cannot be it's own purpose, unless it's part of a tactic when you are playing a defender. pros use slow arc loops only when the ball has dropped too low or when they're not in the perfect position. have you seen the german national championship final? baum used a lot of aggressive pushes to make mengel perform a slow arc loop that he could punish.

anything other than the highest pro level: we have to use slow arc openers very often to set up points.

a slow spinny loop is the bread and butter of learning a good loop though, so even if you don't see much of those in a fan zhen dong vs ma long game it's not like you can skip it altogether.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 12:01 AM
on the pro level an aggressive shot that is only high in spin cannot be it's own purpose, unless it's part of a tactic when you are playing a defender. pros use slow arc loops only when the ball has dropped too low or when they're not in the perfect position. have you seen the german national championship final? baum used a lot of aggressive pushes to make mengel perform a slow arc loop that he could punish.

anything other than the highest pro level: we have to use slow arc openers very often to set up points.

What about high speed, high arc shots? Like counterloops far from the table? Mizutani plays a lot of those, while the Chinese, although still playing a safer more arcing shot, still play with more power over arc and spin.

izra
04-09-2016, 12:08 AM
what mizutani plays when counter looping are actually rockets, they just seem slow when compared to ma long projectiles.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 12:12 AM
what mizutani plays when counter looping are actually rockets, they just seem slow when compared to ma long projectiles.

What I said. High speed, high arc, but still less speed than the Chinese. Maybe due to his inability to even swing that fast, but maybe there's some advantages why you'd want to do that even if you could loop harder.

izra
04-09-2016, 12:35 AM
it's not so much a matter of swinging speed as it is a combination of technique, training and physical fitness. pretty much noone is able to produce such powerful loops with precision and consistency other than the top chinese. in his day wang liqin had the nickname "great power" among the chinese national team. it's not that the top speed of his forehand loop was higher than other players (ma lin was actually the one with the most impressive killing shot) it's just that he could maintain his power without losing precision and consistency at such a wide range of situations and was still able to recover for the next shot. while ma lin had his incredible serve and kill game, wang liqin had the ability to take control of almost any rally and eventually overpower his opponent.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 12:43 AM
I'm curious if it's possible to have as much spin as a brush loop, but the speed of a loopkill. Of course, the spin of MY brush loop and the speed of MY loopkill, not the absolute max.

It would probably be a medium speed/medium spin shot for a pro, but still an improvement for me. Or do I always have to trade off?

izra
04-09-2016, 12:50 AM
how much spin a slow arc loop actually has compared to a loop kill is an interesting one. it is possible that it seems spinnier than it is because of the lack of pace. when talking about a high spin high speed loop kill, in theory the more spin there is the faster the ball can be and still land on the table. so while going for more spin is definitely a good thing, you probably don't want to be taking pace off of it.

one situation when you could benefit from doing such a thing is when playing a blocker or a chopper, in which case you want to add variation in both speed and spin to your loops.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 12:55 AM
how much spin a slow arc loop actually has compared to a loop kill is an interesting one. it is possible that it seems spinnier than it is because of the lack of pace. when talking about a high spin high speed loop kill, in theory the more spin there is the faster the ball can be and still land on the table. so while going for more spin is definitely a good thing, you probably don't want to be taking pace off of it.
I'm inclined to think that a really strong loopkill might have more than a brush loop.

According to: http://www.ittf.com/ittf_science/SSCenter/docs/199208013-%20Wu%20-%20Table%20Tennis%20Spin.pdf what I assume is a high arc shot with not that much pace has a little bit less spin than an all out kill.

We must remember that the pace difference between a kill and a rallying shot is quite a lot and there's far less arc, yet the kill has even MORE spin.

izra
04-09-2016, 01:04 AM
where did you find this? i'm loving it! it's late already and now i won't be going to sleep for at least half an hour reading this. you ba***rd. :D

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 01:08 AM
where did you find this? i'm loving it! it's late already and now i won't be going to sleep for at least half an hour reading this. you ba***rd. :D
It's on the ITTF site. Quite hard to find, though, because you wouldn't find it normally. My google-fu is quite strong.

Shuki
04-09-2016, 01:18 AM
how much spin a slow arc loop actually has compared to a loop kill is an interesting one. it is possible that it seems spinnier than it is because of the lack of pace. when talking about a high spin high speed loop kill, in theory the more spin there is the faster the ball can be and still land on the table. so while going for more spin is definitely a good thing, you probably don't want to be taking pace off of it.


this is only true if the ball is lower than the height of the net. once it's above the net you dont NEED spin to get more speed. It can sure help with consistency though.

izra
04-09-2016, 01:21 AM
this is only true if the ball is lower than the height of the net. once it's above the net you dont NEED spin to get more speed. It can sure help with consistency though.

right you are!

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 01:26 AM
We must remember gravity. The ball will drop and potentially go into the net, so you have actually more chances to land a stroke above the net with greater velocity if it has topspin on it and leaves the paddle at a higher angle.

Of course, you can always just propel the ball to such a velocity, say 10% of lightspeed, so that trivial matters like a small gravitational field don't really matter. ;)

thekleifheit13
04-09-2016, 02:04 AM
+10 points to Archo for starting this thread and +5 to everyone that's replied, awesome discussion and got me thinking! Just two cents from a guy who passed a physics class or two and from some other TT discussions I've seen - the arc of a loop isn't so much determined by spin alone. If a ball is hit super fast then the spin doesn't have much time to bring it down (read: arc). But if a ball of equal spin is hit slowly then the spin has more time before the ball reaches the end of the table in order to bring the ball down. At least that's my understanding. As far as producing either variation at will, I'm a little under-skilled but it's a work in progress :p

thekleifheit13
04-09-2016, 02:05 AM
Well, I took so long to type that I didn't see Archo's post...

Ilia Minkin
04-09-2016, 02:49 AM
I'm inclined to think that a really strong loopkill might have more than a brush loop.

According to: http://www.ittf.com/ittf_science/SSCenter/docs/199208013-%20Wu%20-%20Table%20Tennis%20Spin.pdf what I assume is a high arc shot with not that much pace has a little bit less spin than an all out kill.

We must remember that the pace difference between a kill and a rallying shot is quite a lot and there's far less arc, yet the kill has even MORE spin.

Wow, a very cool paper. TLDR: counterintuitively, loop-drive shots of the CNT players had more spin than brushing loops, maybe because they didn't practice fine brushing loops enough. Best pips-out players could generate spin comparable to pips-in players.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 02:59 AM
Wow, a very cool paper. TLDR: counterintuitively, loop-drive shots of the CNT players had more spin than brushing loops, maybe because they didn't practice fine brushing loops enough. Best pips-out players could generate spin comparable to pips-in players.
A lot of things that seem intuitive don't really work that way. As the paper says in the 2nd conclusion: speed and spin are more closely related than we think.

I think we've all noticed this when we're spinning the ball with the racket for fun, and if the ball bounces higher when we cut it, we get more spin, but if we very, VERY lightly graze it, we get basically no spin and the ball barely bounces if at all because the rubber hasn't grabbed onto it.

A side result of the rubber grabbing onto it is also propelling it in a direction ie: causing velocity. So logically, the more you get the rubber to grab onto the ball and the more friction you have to work with, the more velocity you will also invariably produce.

ALSO, we must take into account the year of publication. I don't think the technology has changed so much as to completely revolutionize the game and make this paper irrelevant (Tensor rubbers and the like actually support the theory more I think) but we are dealing with slightly outdated techniques and equipment here. I'd really want to see a fresh, modern study.

Ilia Minkin
04-09-2016, 03:07 AM
I'd really want to see a fresh, modern study.

Yeah, it is really temptating to know the rotation that top players from China and the rest of the World can produce with different kind of strokes and equipement.

UpSideDownCarl
04-09-2016, 03:26 AM
The truth is, Izra said all the important stuff. If you want to know what is going on, just read his comments. Many excellent comments from him.

He explained the differences in sound, but I am going to explain something about the most important sound.

The quiet thud sound of good brushing, I will leave alone. I think you guys get that one.

The harsher high pitched sound that comes from the wood, that is not what Ma Long is actually getting. He is brushing, but he is brushing with a ton of impact. Softer rubbers, speed glue, boost, they allow you to get that sound easier. If Ma Long was using a soft Euro Rubber that was boosted he would be getting this outrageously loud CORKING sound. But he isn't. He is using H3 which is darn hard rubber, so his corking sound is pretty much the max that an H3 can make.

Where you get that sound is from brushing, but making deep contact so that, as the tangential speed of the racket brushes past the ball, he is actually getting the ball to sink pretty close to as far into the rubber as the ball can, WITHOUT HITTING THE WOOD.

Here is the interesting part, that corking sound, which, when you hear it live is cool as hell, is actually the rebound of the rubber. Let me say that again: THAT CORKING SOUND IS ACTUALLY THE REBOUND OF THE RUBBER. That is also why it sounds different than the harsh contact that happens when you hit the ball flat, like in Archo's video.

So, let me explain this a tiny bit more. If you take a towel and roll it up, and then you swing it really fast, and you have the right timing, you can get that towel to make a popping sound. Same thing with a whip. That sound is actually the tip of the whip, or the tip of the towel, going super fast and that is how it is making that sound. That is what the corking sound is also, and that is why, in person, it sounds nothing like the wood sound. It is the rebound of the rubber, while the ball is in contact with the rubber, for that fraction of a microsecond, going so fast that the rubber makes that corking sound like the pop of a cork coming out of a bottle.

And hell yeah, that creates A LOT OF SPIN. You just have to have good enough technique to get that sound. And you have to have amazing technique to get that sound with H3.

Hopefully this helps.

NextLevel
04-09-2016, 10:52 AM
it's not so much a matter of swinging speed as it is a combination of technique, training and physical fitness. pretty much noone is able to produce such powerful loops with precision and consistency other than the top chinese. in his day wang liqin had the nickname "great power" among the chinese national team. it's not that the top speed of his forehand loop was higher than other players (ma lin was actually the one with the most impressive killing shot) it's just that he could maintain his power without losing precision and consistency at such a wide range of situations and was still able to recover for the next shot. while ma lin had his incredible serve and kill game, wang liqin had the ability to take control of almost any rally and eventually overpower his opponent.

You forgot equipment. EVerything is spot on. Just remember equipment.

EDIT: I see Carl pointed it out.

NextLevel
04-09-2016, 12:06 PM
I had a whole response written out. I used to think that spin was all about the rubber, but as you get better, you realize that all spin is about the blade and the rubber - it is all a matter of degree. The ball can't move fast unless you get good impact. That said, for ANY spin shot, the sound you will hear will always be not as loud as the sound you would hear if the ball were hit flat. A cracking sound on contact is not a bad thing - it is from both wood and rubber distortion. And you can get a cracking sound on relatively slow loops as well. Listen to Brett's loops in this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgvxkRaSZQk


The issues are really spin to speed ratio and consistency. THe paper that Archo cited is really old and from the 38mm ball era. Whether some of its conclusions still hold is open to debate. That said, I agree that harder loops have more spin than slower loops as an absolute measure. But that does not mean that the spin to speed ration is always higher on a harder loop - in fact, it often is not. When people like Ilya's club expert say spin the ball, what they really mean is to play with a higher spin to speed ratio. This is an extremely effective way of playing at the lower levels (i.e. below 2400) as the timing messes up many players as long as the spin is sufficiently heavy relative to the level at which one is playing. It is also much more consistent.

Anyone who doesn't have 20 hours a week to train would be highly reward by learning to generate massive amounts of topspin. It's the only way to improve your timing of the ball and to increase your consistency when you have major footwork limitations. Note that in all the videos where the looper is cracking the ball, he hardly has to move to it with any pressure whatsoever.

If you can hit the ball hard consistently, all the better. The problem is that you can only hit the ball hard all the time close to the table if you are early to the ball, and that places major demands on your anticipation and footwork. You need good line of sight or a good read of the ball to do it.

I will repeat a story I have told to often - in fact, I will just cut and paste it here with some edits. Some of you who know me know how hard I can hit the ball so trust me, part of this story involves me telling my coach that I Wanted to learn to hit the ball harder and he told me the only way to do it consistently was to learn to spin the ball (as it helps you evaluate better what balls you can rip into and you stop mixing up luck and reality), and I can look back on things and say he was right. I was stubborn about it for a long time, so I don't get too hard on those who are stubborn about it too. But eventually, everyone learns the hard way what izra is saying.

"As a rule, my elaborate theories are simply what I remember I experienced and what I did to solve the problem. I used to lose to all kinds of players who gave me timing issues when I was 1700 trying to break 1800. On the way home from a tournament when I lost to an older guy in straight sets, 0-11 in the third, I asked my coach and clubmates what was wrong. They told me that I didn't spin the ball, especially on my forehand and I protested. But later, I understood what they meant - my first instinct was and still is drive contact and I am still working on fixing that. But I developed enough spin and variation that I started to struggle less with timing issues, by making sure that I could loop balls with different trajectories with spin. A lot of it came from practice with long pips blockers. My backhand got the bigger reward because my backhand just had the better technique but it helped me a lot against certain types of players.

So I am just talking about what I used to feel and how I got better at it. Maybe it was just a matter of getting better and an inevitable result of more practice but I don't think so. I think that people who are always looking to first drive the ball, like**** is definitely stuck doing on his backhand, will always struggle with timing at the level they play unless they have great anticipation and footwork. And even that is a big unless.

But on the other hand, I used to try to play choppers with my backhand. So I am possibly a real outlier... but the conversation about my not spinning the ball is a club classic. Till today, you hear my coach and clubmates saying "but I do spin the ball..." and we all do the inside joke laugh because of that night. I don't think I ever fully fixed my instincts, but I worked harder on just making the ball spin as opposed to driving it. Just the improved variation gave me my first 2000+ rated victory two months later and I started beating the guy who beat me 11-0 so badly that he wondered how he ever beat me that badly.

Of course spin requires a relaxed swing. But IMO, you need to practice swinging at different kinds of balls to produce different ball speeds and trajectories on both your forehand and your backhand, once you have your technique down. If you are trying to be that footwork king who always gets to the ball on time and does it right, good. But I have played a lot of matches and I can say that there are players out there who if you drive the ball at one speed to them all the time, unless you set up the point perfectly, you will lose every time. And you would beat them 3-0 fairly easily if you just slowed down and gave them a heavy dose of medium paced, T05 level, heavy topspin.

In my view, the slow heavy topspin game fits into the broader looping game and is not capped in any meaningful way for club players. But you aren't going to get it unless you practice spinning the ball at times when your instinct is to smash or drive it. Or seeing whether you can make some shots where you need to bend the ball to places that you can't with a line of sight drive. When you realize your technique can do these things, then you will be truly relaxed. You will wonder why the heck you are rushing when you know that you will likely still make a good shot even if you don't get to the ball on time as long as you make the right contact."

NextLevel
04-09-2016, 12:16 PM
In case people think that Ma Long never spins up the ball or has never practiced it in his life...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQPw9MSDQQM

I know this thread is about looping contact, but ultimately, it comes down to the fact that no one can hit the ball one way every single time. Even Timo Boll. His style is relatively softer in the Tenergy era than it was in the Sriver/speed glue era. I think people can go back and watch his 2005 World Cup matches and get a better idea of how this boosting and speed glue ban has expanded the Chinese vs. Euro gap. Many of the top Chinese players struggled after the glue ban until they found ways to get good stuff.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 03:34 PM
At some point, you just can't physically hit the ball hard and expect it to land anywhere near your opponent's side. That's a given, and it just gets more and more true the better players you play and the more spin is in the game.

One of my weaknesses, which will soon be a strength, is my half-long forehand corner where you basically need to brush it if you want to loop it. The same placement and pace as in the above Ma Long video, except varied between half long and short that looks like it's half long. A friend of mine who knows my game inside out has been throwing that at me for some time, and it's forced me to level up my reading of spin/placement and improve my brush loop.

Even if I can generate a good arc with speed and occasionally get that rubber corking sound if I swing fast enough while grazing, it's no good if they take away the possibility from me. This is why I believe there's no such thing as "x level shot" unless your whole game is at that level.

@UpSideDownCarl

What video of mine are you talking about? The ppball one or the Ma Long video?

mquevedof
04-09-2016, 03:51 PM
I went to see Andy Pereira once, and it's when I first heard that distinctive sound we have been discussing...

Andy is the shorter guy with the pink hair style...


http://youtu.be/pQ_JSnZkSlY

Watch the third point of the game when Andy's first serve , is a great example!

3rd & 5th ball listen to the click

7th ball load crack, smash kill

If you watch Andy you will see how careful he is in every contact...










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mquevedof
04-09-2016, 03:52 PM
Edit: Sorry not pink... But pink hair style


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mquevedof
04-09-2016, 03:53 PM
Punk... Punk.... I hate auto spell [emoji16]


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Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 04:07 PM
So this bottle cork sound is what we're striving for. It's quite similar to the ones commonly heard in good pro loops, only real difference between all of them being the pitch, but the sound is the same. Even one of my quite low level friends who has a huuuuuuge loop against backspin, who produces a ton of topspin along with it, makes this kind of sound when he gets it right. Now if only he got it right more than 20% of the time.

Judging contact quality based on a minute change of sound (Or a big one, if you're doing things wrong :p) reminds me of judging front wheel braking efficiency based on tire squeal in motorsports. You want some squeal all the way down to the turn in and usually apex, but not too much. An absence of it indicates too little braking pressure.

I'll start listening closer.

UpSideDownCarl
04-09-2016, 04:27 PM
Archo, all the stuff you say about looping is basically nonsense or an imitation of the words of other people. But when you regurgitate the words of someone who actually experienced them, you don't seem to put things in the right context because you don't actually know what you are saying from experience.

With your technique and a recreational racket with dead rubbers, the idea that you are talking as though you do these things all the time is a bit odd.

Asking for the information is great. But then, all of a sudden, acting like you are already doing what was just described seems silly.

I guess you are intent on pretending you are an expert and know what you are talking about.

I know guys who are, say 1700-1800. On a bad day, under the worst of circumstances, you still can see that their strokes are good, their mechanics are good, AND THERE CONTACT IS the kind where they pull past the ball and spin it. If they are banging into the ball, it is because they want to. Not because they are tired or some other silliness.

In that video of you, the CONTACT, is the contact of a flat hit. You are not doing it because you are tired. That is your default setting. Perhaps you are learning to spin, or trying to learn to spin. But your default contact is flat up against the ball. And it makes perfect sense if you are using a prebuilt no-brand recreational racket with worn out rubbers. You can't really do these techniques consistently with that kind of equipment.

Again, there is nothing wrong with having a drive contact default setting. Listen to NextLevel talking about when that was his default and how he still needs to stay focused and work to get the right contact for more spin. NextLevel's story shows a level of maturity and honesty about doing the painstaking hard work to really improve. Darn I wish you would learn from the guy instead of just trying to pretend you already do everything with such skill.

You could actually be a productive member of this forum if you weren't always trying to pretend you already know things you don't REALLY know. And knowing the words is different than speaking from experience. And often, when you speak from experience you have to struggle to find the right words to explain the experience. There is none of that from you.

Man I wish you would just grow up. Keep playing. Learn to do this stuff you are asking about. That would be awesome. And I bet, if you were really doing that, your irritating on-line personality would change into a really good one.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

UpSideDownCarl
04-09-2016, 04:32 PM
Well, I amend this. Your last comment seems like you are trying to learn.


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UpSideDownCarl
04-09-2016, 04:34 PM
I'll start listening closer.

Best thing you ever wrote. That is the right attitude.

When you hear that sound from a high level player, in person, you know it is different from what you were thinking.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 04:34 PM
Carl, I don't understand why you're upset.

I'm not making up anything new here: I'm just vocalizing what other people have said, perhaps in the wrong context, so I can be told if it makes any sense or not. Although unless you tell me exactly what is wrong, I can't really improve my understanding of anything.

All I've learned is that certain sounds are good, certain sounds are not. I've produced all of them myself, some more than others. I'll try to make more of the good kind of sound, now that I know what I want.

I'd really appreciate it if you could go into detail on how exactly one produces this contact, instead of telling me that I'm not producing it and that I don't know anything. :confused:

Also, my equipment is actually not that bad. I can clearly feel that if the contact is bad, it was really me, not the equipment. If the ball consistently spins well, it's because I consistently got a good contact.

The maximum spin is surely limited, but my back/side serves break off the table's side and come back some, so it can't be nonexistent like there's anti on the blade.

NextLevel
04-09-2016, 05:50 PM
Carl, I don't understand why you're upset.

I'm not making up anything new here: I'm just vocalizing what other people have said, perhaps in the wrong context, so I can be told if it makes any sense or not. Although unless you tell me exactly what is wrong, I can't really improve my understanding of anything.

All I've learned is that certain sounds are good, certain sounds are not. I've produced all of them myself, some more than others. I'll try to make more of the good kind of sound, now that I know what I want.

I'd really appreciate it if you could go into detail on how exactly one produces this contact, instead of telling me that I'm not producing it and that I don't know anything. :confused:

Also, my equipment is actually not that bad. I can clearly feel that if the contact is bad, it was really me, not the equipment. If the ball consistently spins well, it's because I consistently got a good contact.

The maximum spin is surely limited, but my back/side serves break off the table's side and come back some, so it can't be nonexistent like there's anti on the blade.

The noise in the Andy Pereira video is from a loud rubber. Not all rubbers will sound like that unless you boost them.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 05:51 PM
The noise in the Andy Pereira video is from a loud rubber. Not all rubbers will sound like that unless you boost them.
What would it sound like with a very quiet rubber?

NextLevel
04-09-2016, 05:55 PM
What would it sound like with a very quiet rubber?

IT all depends on how well your rubber stretches. Boosted rubbers or speed glued rubbers just stretch and pop differently. You are a student but if you ever bought or tried Calibra sound or a boosted EL-P, you would know what I mean.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 06:01 PM
The sound is definitely different between the rubbers I use and pro rubbers, although I've not heard both being compared in person.

Pro rubbers produce a crack like worse rubbers do as well if you smack it, but I've never heard exactly that pop. My rubbers are not boosted and are not the highest end, so they don't have that second "echo" to them. If you know what I'm talking about.

NextLevel
04-09-2016, 06:04 PM
The pop is a speed glue effect/ boost sound. Don't bother with it.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 06:05 PM
The pop is a speed glue effect/ boost sound. Don't bother with it.
What I should be looking for is generally a softer sound with the same stroke, right?

NextLevel
04-09-2016, 06:07 PM
What I should be looking for is generally a softer sound with the same stroke, right?

Yes. Off center contact.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 06:11 PM
Yes. Off center contact.
Off center on the ball, or on the rubber?

UpSideDownCarl
04-09-2016, 08:05 PM
Carl, I don't understand why you're upset.

I will see if I can explain.


I've produced all of them myself, some more than others.

If you think that it is not as bad as if you actually know you haven't produced the corking sound and are saying you have. But, it is highly unlikely that you have produced that sound. So, it is worth knowing that you have probably not produced that sound and you probably haven't heard it in person either. It is pretty distinct. Its the kind of sound that makes you want to go out and buy good old fashioned Joola Mambo and some good Haifu Speed Glue.


I'd really appreciate it if you could go into detail on how exactly one produces this contact, instead of telling me that I'm not producing...

Actually I already did and NextLevel amended my info to say you can also have the sound when there is some contact with the wood added to the high rebound of the sponge and topsheet. How you get the sound is that you brush but you make deep contact while brushing and your technique has to be good enough to give you serious power on impact.


Also, my equipment is actually not that bad.

I don't know. You may be right. But, from your description of your premade racket I highly, highly doubt it. It really sounds like NextLevel's very honest description of guys telling him: "you don't spin the ball!" And him responding: "I do spin the ball!" Until you understand why you want good, high quality, tensor rubbers that are new enough to really grab the ball, until you understand because you have felt it, you will be able to continue thinking that old, dead, recreational rubber is okay. If it was cheap, Chinese rubber, maybe. But even dead Tensors are not good for learning this stuff.

I know guys who can loop with Antispin. But they didn't learn with antispin. And, even with rubber that is kind of dead, that isn't what you want to use when you are trying to learn what NextLevel means by "SPIN THE BALL."


The maximum spin is surely limited, but my back/side serves break off the table's side and come back some, so it can't be nonexistent like there's anti on the blade.

This should be enough to know you need new rubber. Why don't you try Dawei 2008XP. It is good enough for spinning the ball and only costs $8.00 per sheet.

But anyway, when you say stuff and it sounds like you think you know what it is but probably don't, I guess it gets under my skin because you do it so much. No worries.

Archosaurus
04-09-2016, 08:18 PM
I'll make right whatever wrong beliefs I might have when I get myself a blade worth putting a good sheet on. Right now, there's no need, and I can still practice spinning the ball with what I have. Even if I'd be far too ashamed to beat on people with my custom setup, I might get a very cheap setup just for practice in the nearby future. 8 dollars a sheet is definitely in my range, and I could compare it to what I have now.

I'd really like to get out a second, better video to give people some reference about the spin level. The last one was terribly lacking. I haven't played much in the past few weeks, though, but perhaps I'll have a chance next week.

In the meanwhile, I'll work on that contact...

mquevedof
04-10-2016, 01:52 AM
Sound included [emoji41]


http://youtu.be/IxImySjwbHk


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