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Archosaurus
04-13-2016, 09:53 PM
Hello.

So I've gone away from my flat hitting tendency and I think I can quite solidly play with a very high spin/speed ratio now. The sound is more of a pop instead of a crack, and I get what Carl has been talking about with spinning the ball. A lot of people not used to the spin are giving up when they think a shot's gonna go off the end, and it arcs back down sharply to surprise them. :cool: Not high level by any means, but a welcome improvement and I think I can get somewhere with this.

Although now I'm running into the last slow loop problem until I can consider having a decent loop: no spin without a lot of pace.

If someone blocks a medium/high pace ball at me without a lot of spin, I can spin it because the impact seems to give me more friction from it digging in. I can even counterloop people's topspin easily and relatively heavy backspin is tremendously easy compared to a slow no spin.

I CAN spin a slow no spin ball, but not too much. There's no spin or pace to make the ball dig in, and although I'm brushing it enough that I've even barely missed a few shots and just grazed it, I can't get heavy spin on it without throwing it off the end.

If I adjust my racket angle and do more of a loop drive, coming over the ball and pulling past it, I get decent spin with good pace, but if possible I'd really like how to slow loop it just so I know how.

Is visibly lower spin than when looping backspin a normal thing, should I just drive or loopdrive no spin balls, or what? I understand that you'd not want to slow loop a no spin ball in the first place, but surely there should be a way to impart a bit more spin on it.

Thanks.

@NextLevel
@UpSideDownCarl
@Shuki
@NDH

SilentRain
04-13-2016, 10:07 PM
Seriously, if no spin then just kill it with a punch, drive, flick or loop. Slow loops are not really viable at higher levels as players will just loop kill it especially if you slow loop a no spin ball. If you really want to slow loop a no spin ball, you can try mimicking an attackers brush loop against a chopper but with less upward swing motion as they are lifting underspin but same principle. Brushing will be key

Archosaurus
04-13-2016, 10:11 PM
Seriously, if no spin then just kill it with a punch, drive, flick or loop. Slow loops are not really viable at higher levels as players will just loop kill it especially if you slow loop a no spin ball. If you really want to slow loop a no spin ball, you can try mimicking an attackers brush loop against a chopper but with less upward swing motion as they are lifting underspin but same principle. Brushing will be key

I've noticed that it's a lot better to just loopkill it if my opponent messes up enough to give me one, but I'm a developing player so I think I need to learn to slow loop no spin as well.

That upwards looping motion you're talking about is what I'm trying to do, and I can't get that much spin because like you said, it goes off the edge if I lift it a lot like with backspin.

Do I just need to brush gentler?

SilentRain
04-13-2016, 10:20 PM
Its all about finnese and contact. Brush faster and maximise contact of the ball on the rubber without much swing. Maybe taking the ball later will help as the ball is now lower and can compensate for overlooping out of the table

Archosaurus
04-13-2016, 10:29 PM
Its all about finnese and contact. Brush faster and maximise contact of the ball on the rubber without much swing. Maybe taking the ball later will help as the ball is now lower and can compensate for overlooping out of the table
The best I've been able to do, usually because it's half long and very close to the edge, is to wait until it's quite low under the table and brushing it fairly quickly mostly in an upwards movement, not coming across my body as much as in a normal loop. The follow through angle is similar to the one you have when looping down the line from the forehand corner, with the FH rubber pointing forward.

Maybe I'm doing it right and I'm just expecting too much. I'll try to include some in the next video that I get the chance to capture, so you guys can see if there's something wrong.

It's not a terribly bad shot if I clip the net on the way and place it well, but more spin would make it better, I think.

NextLevel
04-13-2016, 11:02 PM
Seriously, if no spin then just kill it with a punch, drive, flick or loop. Slow loops are not really viable at higher levels as players will just loop kill it especially if you slow loop a no spin ball. If you really want to slow loop a no spin ball, you can try mimicking an attackers brush loop against a chopper but with less upward swing motion as they are lifting underspin but same principle. Brushing will be key

What do you consider a high level? And when you think about it, don't you have to slow loop a no-spin ball against a chopper sometimes? Moreso because you can't be sure about the amount of spin on the ball?

NextLevel
04-13-2016, 11:04 PM
I've noticed that it's a lot better to just loopkill it if my opponent messes up enough to give me one, but I'm a developing player so I think I need to learn to slow loop no spin as well.

That upwards looping motion you're talking about is what I'm trying to do, and I can't get that much spin because like you said, it goes off the edge if I lift it a lot like with backspin.

Do I just need to brush gentler?

"Upward" looping motions are fraught with danger. Come around the side of the ball forward and over it - you may combine that with some upward motion if you want some arc, but that can also be determined by contact point. You can only go upward on the back of a ball if you are sure the ball has a lot of backspin. Anything else is dangerous.

Archosaurus
04-13-2016, 11:15 PM
"Upward" looping motions are fraught with danger. Come around the side of the ball forward and over it - you may combine that with some upward motion if you want some arc, but that can also be determined by contact point. You can only go upward on the back of a ball if you are sure the ball has a lot of backspin. Anything else is dangerous.
That makes sense. I come on the back of the ball for the most part when looping backspin and I'm sure it's heavy. I find that better.

Normally I try to go around and over, but I've found that for this it ends up in just a spinless touch shot basically, or at least it feels like it. So I try going up on the back of the ball, but I'm sure THIS is what is causing the upwards throw angle and making it go off.

If the shot is over the side, I loop it along the side and over it and I actually get enough spin that I'm satisfied, but not if it's in the middle for example. The table is in the way, so I can't lift it with a lot of arc, and trying to come around it and forward does get it on the table but it feels floaty.

SilentRain
04-13-2016, 11:16 PM
@Next level
I dont have a rating figure to give you but i consider high level to be where your opponent will consistently punish you fatally if you do the wrong things. Thats why the coach for my club division trained us to never slow loop unless its an emergency. Good placement will almost always be better than that. Most of choppers i play will happily punch kill or loopkill a slow loop and the good ones are very accurate at doing so. Plus if its a no spin ball, then surely theres no spin on the ball so how can i not be sure about the amount of spin?

Archosaurus
04-13-2016, 11:21 PM
Silentrain, "heavy no-spin" is a spin too, as long as it looks like heavy backspin or heavy topspin. :cool:

UpSideDownCarl
04-13-2016, 11:22 PM
Sounds like you are working hard. When you have footage of what you are trying to do, I am sure comments on technique to help you improve will be much more accurately on target to the information that will help you.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Der_Echte
04-13-2016, 11:24 PM
A few wass to go about looping a no spin slow ball and some progression to move towards a faster/more quality shot.

First attack to learn is a heavy spin to land deep. Use 1/2 of everything - Power, graze, solid contact, lift. Go for heavy spin land it deep and NOT in Opponent's power zone. You will be surprized at how well it works at BH corner or body deep

Later, when you get more touch and timing and better movement to the ball for position and leverage, you can increasingly hit more forward and more solid gradually, so that later, you are making a strong forward high impact power loop kill.

Ilia Minkin
04-13-2016, 11:26 PM
What do you consider a high level? And when you think about it, don't you have to slow loop a no-spin ball against a chopper sometimes? Moreso because you can't be sure about the amount of spin on the ball?

In the last two tournaments I played I faced players that consistently counterlooped my slow openings, in U1300, U1600 and U1750 events. Since that I'm putting tremendous effort to improve the pace of my openings and their placement.

Archosaurus
04-13-2016, 11:31 PM
A few wass to go about looping a no spin slow ball and some progression to move towards a faster/more quality shot.

First attack to learn is a heavy spin to land deep. Use 1/2 of everything - Power, graze, solid contact, lift. Go for heavy spin land it deep and NOT in Opponent's power zone. You will be surprized at how well it works at BH corner or body deep

Later, when you get more touch and timing and better movement to the ball for position and leverage, you can increasingly hit more forward and more solid gradually, so that later, you are making a strong forward high impact power loop kill.
If I manage to land it with a big arc, it's always in the last inch or so, and I can place it wherever I want in a game. Even without so much spin it works nicely if I hit it deep into someone's body when they're jammed up. If they're ready, I think they can just smack it, so that's why I wanna improve it.

@UpSideDownCarl

Oh, you bet I am working. I've been staying overtime, looping thrown balls from my hand, to cover up for lost practice time. Only took several weeks and many hours every day, but I'm starting to get a hang of it. I can spin well in matches, now.


I've been wanting to get footage out for over half a month now, but not found a good partner to train with. If I'm lucky, tomorrow maybe...

Ilia Minkin
04-13-2016, 11:31 PM
Looping softly when one is uncertain about the amount of spin makes sense, but from my point of view it falls under the definition of "emergency" as SilentRain said.

NextLevel
04-13-2016, 11:35 PM
In the last two tournaments I played I faced players that consistently counterlooped my slow openings, in U1300, U1600 and U1750 events. Since that I'm putting tremendous effort to improve the pace of my openings and their placement.


Raise the spin level. Raise the spin level. You have good spin on your backhand but not your forehand if your game is as I remember it. No one consistently counterloops heavy topspin openers if you put max effort into the spin level. Placement of course is an issue as is variation and height. Spin level is relative to level - my spin level will not trouble Ma Long, but it can trouble 2200 players.

Archosaurus
04-13-2016, 11:35 PM
I can loop fast. Getting the safe, slow loop out is the hard part, for some whacky reason. I feel like the fast loop has enough spin, because compared to my slow loop on no-spin, it has nearly the same arc if my slow loop is low. :confused:

One of my favorite 5th ball setups is light back/side to backhand -> They push to my forehand and make it go half long -> Fast loop forehand corner -> They return it to my forehand -> Loopkill/slap to their backhand corner

Free points against people with a bad short game. :p

@NextLevel

Effort? Should I try to really brush it hard with a fast movement?

The best no-spin slow loop I can remember is a huge arc with a ton of topspin that I accidentally pulled off when I just let go one time. I'd like to do that consistently.

Der_Echte
04-13-2016, 11:37 PM
Ilia, whatever works for you vs that opponent you face, do it man.

A slow, HEAVY opener, even if it is not well placed, as long as it is REAL heavy and deep is a great shot. It is a QUALITY shot. It wins points and sets me up to win points. I spin first and ask questions later, unless opponent gives me high stuff I see.

A fast shot to the right place deep is also a QUALITY ball.

One should be working to increase one's QUALITY of shots... lots of stuff goes into quality, (spin/speed/placement/choice of ball to play, choice of speed/spin to give, height and depth of ball...) but a QUALITY shot troubles opponents.

I heavy spun my way to within one point of winning the U2000 finals in a ringer club, 15 of the 40 players in the field coulda went to the finals. I must have put heavy topspin (slow and deep) on 70% of the balls I opened up on. The rest were good chance for fast loops from a small high return of dead serve or change of spin I gave.

The other thing to worry about is CONSISTENCY to go along with the quality of your shot.

Those are tough things to grow quickly, but that should be the goal for shots overall. Quality and Consistency

Archosaurus
04-13-2016, 11:44 PM
I'm not concerned about speed right now myself. I have a lot of ways to generate speed with reasonable spin.

What I'm looking for is a super slow, super heavy opening loop that'll smack into your groin and spin up your shirt if you're not ready. I've seen it happen once. ;)

NextLevel
04-13-2016, 11:45 PM
BTW, looping "softly" is a very interesting and ambiguous term - I don't mean lazy looping when I say slow looping. Sometimes, a good slow loop can require just as much effort as a good fast loop and sometimes, slow loops are really medium/fast in some contexts. If you see Der Echte slow looping (or heavy topspin looping), you will think he just lifted 10 tonnes of bricks. The best slow looper in my club plants himself firmly below the table before doing a full lift to standing level to impart maximum spin. And yes, players rated 100-200 pts above him can counterloop or kill his ball sometimes if it is badly placed. But players at his level or below him can just as easily miss the ball no matter where he places it. Spin is always relative.

What you are doing is putting max effort into the spin over speed so that the opponent has to time the loop correctly to make proper contact. It's not necessarily slow, but the ball just doesn't fly through the air. Some people achieve a similar effect by using spinnier (Tenergy, MX-S) or slower (H3, Baracuda) rubbers but the overall point is the same. You can also loop slowly and keep the ball low with maximum brush.

Archosaurus
04-13-2016, 11:49 PM
BTW, looping "softly" is a very interesting and ambiguous term - I don't mean lazy looping when I say slow looping. Sometimes, a good slow loop can require just as much effort as a good fast loop and sometimes, slow loops are really medium/fast in some contexts. If you see Der Echte slow looping (or heavy topspin looping), you will think he just lifted 10 tonnes of bricks. What you are doing is putting max effort into the spin over speed so that the opponent has to time the loop correctly to make proper contact. It's not necessarily slow, but the ball just doesn't fly through the air. Some people achieve a similar effect by using spinnier (Tenergy, MX-S) or slower (H3, Baracuda) rubbers but the overall point is the same. You can also loop slowly and keep the ball low with maximum brush.
I've once achieved a huuuuuuge arc on my loop with maximum effort, like I'm doing max weight one rep squats, although it wasn't onto a completely dead ball, IIRC. So I know it's possible with my equipment and touch.

I should be able to get consistent at those if I just know exactly what I should do (I'm going to try really brushing into it and throwing caution into the wind for a while), and I'll settle for the high arc. I'm pretty sure I need to master the high arc first before I can do those amazing super heavy shots with a full swing yet the ball barely goes over the net.

Oh yeah. Looping softly. Is it any good? To actually loop with a slow bat speed? That is, as a decision and not because your consistency for a good brush is low.

Slow is a bit relative, but say, 50%.

Ilia Minkin
04-14-2016, 12:02 AM
Ilia, whatever works for you vs that opponent you face, do it man.

A slow, HEAVY opener, even if it is not well placed, as long as it is REAL heavy and deep is a great shot. It is a QUALITY shot. It wins points and sets me up to win points. I spin first and ask questions later, unless opponent gives me high stuff I see.

A fast shot to the right place deep is also a QUALITY ball.

One should be working to increase one's QUALITY of shots... lots of stuff goes into quality, (spin/speed/placement/choice of ball to play, choice of speed/spin to give, height and depth of ball...) but a QUALITY shot troubles opponents.


I completely agree, it is important to be able to change all three things: speed, spin and placement, not just spin. There is nothing more frustrating than to watch your opener passing by.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/5255114.jpg

Archosaurus
04-14-2016, 12:04 AM
I completely agree, it is important to be able to change all three things: speed, spin and placement, not just spin. There is nothing more frustrating than to watch your opener passing by.

An attack don't matter if it's lousy. "Strive to perform the first meaningful attack" is a phrase I like.

Even the kids at my school can slap the hell out of a lousy opener.

NextLevel
04-14-2016, 12:07 AM
I completely agree, it is important to be able to change all three things: speed, spin and placement, not just spin. There is nothing more frustrating than to watch your opener passing by.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/5255114.jpg


Yeah - I think that sometimes, heavy spin is overrated as the ball gets larger. But it is still a weapon. It's all relative. I saw a guy repeatedly slow loop to Amy Wang's backhand with his - I was expecting her to kill it with her super backhand but she often blocked the ball off the table. Took her some time to adjust.

Archosaurus
04-14-2016, 03:45 PM
@NextLevel
@UpSideDownCarl
@SilentRain
@Der_Echte

Here's a video of me trying to figure out the proper swing and body position. Looping no spin feels terribly awkward so most of these will not be pretty, and there's a few drives mixed in because I was terribly out of position. Hard to get into position if I don't know where it is, because my topspin/backspin backswing positions don't feel good for this, and neither do these.

I think my swing is more correct than my body movement. Usually I'm too hunched over and leaning to the side. I think a straighter back relative to the ground is better, with less body and more arm.

Oh well, you give me your thoughts.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT5Z8ncS-QM

UpSideDownCarl
04-14-2016, 05:48 PM
You are generally contacting the ball around net height. When you are doing this drill, try to contact the ball slightly lower than table height. This will do 2 things.

1) It will force you to get lower.

2) It will force you to learn to spin the ball better.

If you hit from below the table it will force you to create more arc on the ball. Which means you will either have to hit slower, or put more spin on the ball.

But, video of you looping dead balls vs a live opponent might be more helpful to your development. Adjustment to ball placement when you place the ball for yourself is totally different than adjustment to ball placement when someone is placing the ball from across the table.

This drill is good practice. It can help you feel the right contact for looping dead balls. But it doesn't show much about what would happen against a real opponent.

By the way, I think on a dead ball it is good to have bat speed slow on contact to hold the ball on the rubber for longer and to have serious acceleration of racket speed after the ball has sunk into the sponge and the topsheet has really grabbed the ball.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
04-14-2016, 06:07 PM
You are generally contacting the ball around net height. When you are doing this drill, try to contact the ball slightly lower than table height. This will do 2 things.

1) It will force you to get lower.

2) It will force you to learn to spin the ball better.

If you hit from below the table it will force you to create more arc on the ball. Which means you will either have to hit slower, or put more spin on the ball.

But, video of you looping dead balls vs a live opponent might be more helpful to your development. Adjustment to ball placement when you place the ball for yourself is totally different than adjustment to ball placement when someone is placing the ball from across the table.

This drill is good practice. It can help you feel the right contact for looping dead balls. But it doesn't show much about what would happen against a real opponent.

By the way, I think on a dead ball it is good to have bat speed slow on contact to hold the ball on the rubber for longer and to have serious acceleration of racket speed after the ball has sunk into the sponge and the topsheet has really grabbed the ball.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

I've found what you said to be true. I didn't even notice I was contacting at net height: I was trying to not use my body too much and to focus on the arm. The video shows that I am sometimes leaning over with my CoG not in the middle of my support platform ie: leg base.

Next time, I'll wait more, have the stance a bit wider and lower and try to loop slower. These shots I'm doing are actually a lot closer to my "safe" rallying strokes vs light spin, and not a slow loop on a slow ball. They're basically the kind of shots I'd do when the ball clips the net and I can't return it aggressively, or someone pushes long very light and low at me but I don't feel confident in killing it. So I think I'll have to go lower and focus on holding the ball more to get the spinny loop to stick.


I feel that my adjustment and footwork against a live opponent is better. The ball isn't coming at me here and isn't coming off a racket so it's a bit strange. I am also better in position before a stroke vs when I throw the ball.

I couldn't get anyone to feed to me today, but maybe tomorrow.

UpSideDownCarl
04-14-2016, 06:41 PM
Also, another key to knowing if you are spinning the ball well: those shots, if you had remotely decent spin on them would bounce away from that back wall as they do and then get pulled back to the wall by the spin. Your picking most of them up near the table and it seems they are bouncing but not spinning anymore.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
04-14-2016, 07:41 PM
Also, another key to knowing if you are spinning the ball well: those shots, if you had remotely decent spin on them would bounce away from that back wall as they do and then get pulled back to the wall by the spin. Your picking most of them up near the table and it seems they are bouncing but not spinning anymore.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
The wall is pretty rough. It seems to kill 9/10 of the spin on impact. The ball still spins forward after hitting it, but not too much. If the ball goes into the net, the spin's many, many times heavier than when it hits the wall and it'd easily travel past the wall if it wasn't there.

You can't really see it, but the bounce of the ball on the table is a rapid forward acceleration that's lower than the arc. If someone misses a block and the ball hits their abdomen and they try to take it while it's spinning, it'll fly out of their hand in the direction of my sidespin.

It's not that heavy spin, but I'm pretty sure it's at least remotely decent. They're not drives.

EDIT: Is there a more reliable, practical way to measure spin? Getting a big ball catch net here is obviously not a thing I'll do on this public school table, but maybe there's something. A return board like thing that'd bounce the ball back onto my side and I'd see how much it travels forward. That'd be nice. Maybe I could even fabricate one with some bats and elaborate placement of books and props to hold it up at an angle. :p

I'm really not fond of the "hitting wall" method. I've had quite big topspins come at me that blast past me with greater speed than I expected based on the flight speed, and when they hit the wall, they barely travel half a meter back towards the wall. It'll even basically stop a backspin ball from spinning if you serve one softly into the wall from very close by. Not very accurate or reliable.

chuckjordan2
04-15-2016, 05:47 PM
Draw two intersecting circles on your practice ball(s). Then you can more clearly see your spin in the air. See example

9775

Archosaurus
04-29-2016, 02:24 AM
Draw two intersecting circles on your practice ball(s). Then you can more clearly see your spin in the air. See example

9775

I actually just ordered some Joola Spinballs which quite clearly show spin in the air.

If the ball nearly appears to be one color in the air when it has two sides with different color and a black line separating them, is that any good spin? Should it be 100% completely uniform in color to be considered heavy spin?

Shuki
04-29-2016, 08:39 AM
Haven't read responses sorry. But if you're struggling to loop nospin balls, loosen your grip and slow down. You're not supposed to be able to loop a no-spin ball extremely aggressively.

Theres a reason the dead ball serve is becoming so popular. If it's below net height with almost no spin, they can't attack the ball very hard. At best they can just try and place it well with their loop. If I were to give you a heavy topspin or heavy backspin ball, you get to use that spin to make your loop more powerful.

You've seen NL's video's of his play. I'm willing to bet the reason he does such heavy spin on his serves is so that the opponents return will also have quite a bit of spin still on the ball. This allows him to shoot golfballs at his opponent with his loops. Then he also mixes in the no-spin serves with his backspin ones to keep the opponent honest. NL's counter loop is powerful and if he can get his opponent to attack his short no-spin serve, then he's getting a ball that he can really rip into after that. He knows their ball isn't coming too fast or spinny for him. All he has to worry about is reacting to their placement.

Archosaurus
04-29-2016, 02:32 PM
Haven't read responses sorry. But if you're struggling to loop nospin balls, loosen your grip and slow down. You're not supposed to be able to loop a no-spin ball extremely aggressively.

Theres a reason the dead ball serve is becoming so popular. If it's below net height with almost no spin, they can't attack the ball very hard. At best they can just try and place it well with their loop. If I were to give you a heavy topspin or heavy backspin ball, you get to use that spin to make your loop more powerful.

You've seen NL's video's of his play. I'm willing to bet the reason he does such heavy spin on his serves is so that the opponents return will also have quite a bit of spin still on the ball. This allows him to shoot golfballs at his opponent with his loops. Then he also mixes in the no-spin serves with his backspin ones to keep the opponent honest. NL's counter loop is powerful and if he can get his opponent to attack his short no-spin serve, then he's getting a ball that he can really rip into after that. He knows their ball isn't coming too fast or spinny for him. All he has to worry about is reacting to their placement.

I can place slow loops very well and they have quite a bit of arc with this new setup, too. I still feel they are not too spinny, though.

They will travel back towards the wall and they will pop up violently off a racket that's not closed, but they won't travel too fast and they don't pop up at absolutely tremendous speed, just at a big angle.

My fast topspins can probably be actually called loops or loopdrives now with this new setup, because I've found a way, with wrist and elbow whipping, to get enough topspin on a very fast stroke so that the ball bounces up when it hits the back wall and doesn't even really travel back towards me: it'll just keep spinning at the wall over and over, bumping into it a few times. I'm pretty sure that's due to spin, because I wasn't getting it before.


My slow loops on the other hand, don't feel so spinny. People pop them up like crazy and it's more common for them to make them go off the edge than get them on the table, but they don't appear to be spinning that fast.

Maybe they're spinning pretty well relative to the speed, because they're very slow and there's a pronounced arc, but then shouldn't they accelerate very much after hitting the ground when they come back at me, or pop up from the wall at an angle? They roll back quite disappointingly.


Is that normal, or is my touch just bad?

Baal
04-29-2016, 03:30 PM
One of the 2400 plus players at my club is constantly varying the speed of his loops, and the height and trajectory. You never feel comfortable. He is in his 40s now, but back when he was in his 20s he was just shy of 2600. Played the same way then only he moved better.

As for the original post, getting the skill of looping all sorts of balls, including slow dead ones, is something that multiball training is really good for.

Archosaurus
04-29-2016, 04:54 PM
You know, I have a pretty simple problem. I'll just describe it here.

Whenever I brush loop anything that's not a respectable amount of backspin, it'll go out. The arc will be okay for the speed, but it'll be too fast and it'll have a huge throw angle off the rubber. It feels like I'm basically just lifting it high and long.


Logically, I'd just need more spin in this case. Yet even when I brush thinly enough to miss the ball half the time, it still launches it out. I'm certain it's contacting the rubber surface and not the edge or anything.

Is the answer here just more racket head speed and hope for the best, or is it something else? Is my blade angle perhaps too open? I keep it around 70 to 80 deg.

Oh, also, I can slow loop drives and pushes, especially with my backhand, but my blade angle is closer to 30 deg there.

UpSideDownCarl
04-29-2016, 05:08 PM
I think this has more to do with the quality and consistency of your contact and your feel, your ability to feel and get the rubber to grab the ball instead of bumping into the ball, the ability to feel the racket pull past the ball as if the ball is rolling on the topsheet. I could be wrong because seeing it would be different than hearing your description. But from your description, that is what it sounds like.

Archosaurus
04-29-2016, 05:19 PM
I think this has more to do with the quality and consistency of your contact and your feel, your ability to feel and get the rubber to grab the ball instead of bumping into the ball, the ability to feel the racket pull past the ball as if the ball is rolling on the topsheet. I could be wrong because seeing it would be different than hearing your description. But from your description, that is what it sounds like.
I didn't record anything because I was out of battery and also time, but I'll get something next time. It's very similar to the last video I posted, for reference. I'm just trying to spin more.


I think I'm just simply bumping into the ball and not rolling it over the topsheet. Is it inconsistency in blade angle? How exactly would I go about fixing this with simple drills for example?

Baal
04-29-2016, 07:35 PM
You know, I have a pretty simple problem. I'll just describe it here.

Whenever I brush loop anything that's not a respectable amount of backspin, it'll go out. The arc will be okay for the speed, but it'll be too fast and it'll have a huge throw angle off the rubber. It feels like I'm basically just lifting it high and long.


Logically, I'd just need more spin in this case. Yet even when I brush thinly enough to miss the ball half the time, it still launches it out. I'm certain it's contacting the rubber surface and not the edge or anything.

Is the answer here just more racket head speed and hope for the best, or is it something else? Is my blade angle perhaps too open? I keep it around 70 to 80 deg.

Oh, also, I can slow loop drives and pushes, especially with my backhand, but my blade angle is closer to 30 deg there.

No, I think the answer is shear trial and error, so you figure it out yourself. That comes from multiball drills where someone feed you balls of various spins and speeds. As time goes on they feed you more varied balls but initially they concentrate on the balls you can make; then the balls you miss; then gradual increase in variation.

It is the only way to get to where you can do it without thinking about it when you are under pressure. You can't be thinking about mechanics when playing live.

In other words, on the ones you miss, you are given so many balls that you sort of figure it out. You try all sorts of things. One of those things will be the correct answer.

UpSideDownCarl
04-29-2016, 08:18 PM
I think I'm just simply bumping into the ball and not rolling it over the topsheet. Is it inconsistency in blade angle? How exactly would I go about fixing this with simple drills for example?

It might be sort of like this:


https://youtu.be/8yqeLdDDITU

Or maybe like this:


https://youtu.be/lyKe4jMDvxY

Well, if you can't find the answers in my favorite Strong Bad Email episodes, then, I don't know what will help.

But you could try that ball bounce thing the way I do it:


https://youtu.be/ezBW4kePyrc

Use 20-30 balls minimum so you get rapid succession practice. You keep trying to brush and every so often you feel something different. Then over time you start feeling it more and more often. And then you can do it every time when you do the ball bounce. Then you realize that while you are hitting with a real person you are still hitting flat and you start trying to brush and at a certain point you start getting it. Then at a certain point you can do it most of the time.

Otherwise you can go out and buy yourself one of those wheels:


https://youtu.be/3ztZKeGZsao

When you are not brushing with that, when you bang into it you know. But if you bang into it hard, you can break your racket.

With any of the methods for learning that kind of contact, there will still be a transitional period where you can do it in the drill but not against a person.

The drills are just to get you to know how to brush and what it feels like. Then you have to experiment and practice to get in while playing against someone.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel
04-30-2016, 01:10 AM
I avoided answering to spare someone a regurgitated answer in the future.

songdavid98
04-30-2016, 04:10 AM
Not many people analyze the backswing or the elbow or their stance

tldr; if you plan to loop hard, get your body lower but, don't lower your backswing too low.

Assuming you know how to topspin the ball well:

If you can loop underspin fine, but still loop out when encountering no spin, the quick short term solution is to let the ball drop down, close your racket more and then loop it (not too hard). It's not very effective, but it gets the ball on the table.

The long term solution(for those athletes who want to be competitive):
You can close your racket angle, but it will take away some speed.

Looping underspin serves requires you to drop the paddle low. After all, you must first go down low in order to go up fast.
If you drop the paddle too low, you are forced to hit upwards and it becomes very easy to loop the ball out if your opponent serves topspin or no spin.

Instead, just change the backswing. Bring your paddle back and a little less down. You still have to spin the ball of course.
Make you have a mirror or a video camera or something to help you look at what you are doing.
Most players don't realize how far their arm drops, since all they focus on is how fast they try to follow through. Players don't realize how much they drop their arms when they try to loop a no spin serve.

If you plan to snap your forearm, make sure you get your elbow low. The harder you plan to loop, the lower you would have to go.
(I'm a lefty penholder and I loop really hard, so my elbow is as low as the table or the net.)
If your elbow is too high, it is very difficult to hit forward. (you are almost forced to loop upwards, thus making people go out.
A forward motion is extremely important if you plan to loop hard and punish a serve, since going forward faster lowers the trajectory of your loop. And faster shots require lower trajectories.
Of course, the height of your elbow depends on the ball too(if it's really high or low), so adjust accordingly.
I have seen a lot of older players, and tall players especially who can't or don't get low enough.

One last thing thing is to lean forward. it is an easy way to change your looping motion into something that is directed in a more forward direction, lowering the trajectory of the loop even further. It also helps drop the elbow a little.

As a little extra:
Counterlooping openers and counter attacking is done the same way. Most people go out when they try to counterloop off of a heavy topspin loop because loopers like us are used to dropping our arm and lifting the ball. (This is fine in most scenarios) Instead, you have to raise your backswing to the appropriate height(the height of the loop matters quite a lot) and loop through the ball. Backhand punching follows the same logic. You don't drop your paddle. You raise it to the appropriate height and hit through the ball.

I can't counterloop those openers without leaning forward and raising my backswing a little and getting my body lower.

I have had this problem for years, since I loved looping underspin (and almost all I ever did, since the players I played then didn't block well). I would get frustrated when people served no spin, sidespin/topspin, because I would go out.

Having fixed this problem, I get to pretend to be Xu Xin and counterloop openers and flips all day :D and of course punish long and half long serves.

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 08:31 AM
What degree of angle opening are people talking about?

I'm starting to think that you simply can't loop no-spin balls effectively with a more open angle. 80 - 90deg, that is.

Would anyone have an example of what that'd look like?

songdavid98
04-30-2016, 01:42 PM
No 80-90 degrees is too open. Your looping motion would be forced into an upwards motion (since that's how you would spin it). Trying to hit the ball in a forward motion with that racket angle wouldn't even result in a loop(more like a drive or smash, which is still a fine way to return sort-of-high no spin serves).

This depends on how fast you want your shot to be. But generally, for half long no spin serves, it is more or less 45 degrees for me (and I loop kind of fast). Also, spin still matters here. We all say no spin here, but if you plan to loop hard, then you really have to pay attention as to whether or not the serve is light topspin/ light underspin/light sidespin or some combination. This stuff changes your racket angle too.

By the way, obviously we can't afford to loop everything with power, so 45-60 degrees would still be acceptable.

Get a mirror/camera and double check your original racket angle. I did that about 30 seconds ago.

However, following through in a mostly forward instead of a mostly upward motion is the key to controlling the trajectory of the ball here.

In a game scenario, don't think too much about stroke though. It mostly becomes a feel thing.

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 01:46 PM
I was figuring I'm just not getting enough spin, but by all logic I should be able to grab onto the ball and spin it just by grazing along it, if you simplify things at least.

In reality, perhaps I do need to sink the ball into the sponge, otherwise it'll slip off even with a tacky rubber.

UpSideDownCarl
04-30-2016, 01:57 PM
Assuming you know how to topspin the ball well:

At David Song, you may have missed it, but Archie has been playing with a premade (recreational) bat with totally dead rubbers until a few days ago. He is at the stage where he is trying to figure out how to brush and spin the ball and not bang into it and make flat contact. My guess is, this information is great, but great for someone else.

Just wanted to know who you are dealing with. He's been using the term loop for shots you would probably consider dead balls. But he's a good kid who wants to start learning higher level technique.

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 02:04 PM
Doing what he has told me has improved my faster shots, though. I figured it out on my own before, but I did the same things he's recommended and they worked.

Getting the same level of spin for slow brush shots is what is proving very challenging.

UpSideDownCarl
04-30-2016, 02:11 PM
Assuming you know how to topspin the ball well:

If you can loop underpin fine...

For reference, some videos of Archie's fundamentals.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaJWGg1Fn_I


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trTNNO601Cs

UpSideDownCarl
04-30-2016, 02:13 PM
Doing what he has told me has improved my faster shots, though. I figured it out on my own before, but I did the same things he's recommended and they worked.

Getting the same level of spin for slow brush shots is what is proving very challenging.

Sounds good. Its just good to know that for now, this thread is sort of about you learning how to make consistent loop contact instead of banging into the ball. Right?

NextLevel
04-30-2016, 02:17 PM
Doing what he has told me has improved my faster shots, though. I figured it out on my own before, but I did the same things he's recommended and they worked.

Getting the same level of spin for slow brush shots is what is proving very challenging.

You aren't supposed to get the same level of spin for obvious reasons which you will realize when you have more experience or logically figure out since you like to do so. You just try to get as much as you can.

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 02:25 PM
You aren't supposed to get the same level of spin for obvious reasons which you will realize when you have more experience or logically figure out since you like to do so. You just try to get as much as you can.

That's what I thought. But my technical level surely isn't high enough to say "That's it, I've reached a sensible stage of spin and can stop trying to cause a huge increase now", right?

Logically, you will need to move the ball when you increase spin. Unless the ball is pinned to something and can spin freely but not move, it will move a certain amount for a certain amount of force being put into generating spin, correct? It's not absolutely possible to purely spin the ball, or is it?

If any of this is correct, then it basically means that there's a certain limit to spin that you can achieve with a certain velocity, given perfect technique. No one has perfect technique, and I definitely aren't close to it, so surely we need to also make some compromises, right?


I'm keeping an open mind and assuming that I can drastically spin the ball more than I am right now, with my near vertical swing, but I'm starting to run into some hard caps here.


@UpSideDownCarl

You've forgot how much younger people can improve in a short time, haven't you? Doing the bounce drill with my new equipment is easy and multiple times smoother in that video, and my game bears no resemblance to the first video I posted.

It's common to think that people will always be exactly as they are when you meet them, and if there's not any hard evidence of it, then they haven't changed a bit, but don't you think that's a bit incorrect?

UpSideDownCarl
04-30-2016, 02:48 PM
@UpSideDownCarl

You've forgot how much younger people can improve in a short time, haven't you? Doing the bounce drill with my new equipment is easy and multiple times smoother in that video, and my game bears no resemblance to the first video I posted.

It's common to think that people will always be exactly as they are when you meet them, and if there's not any hard evidence of it, then they haven't changed a bit, but don't you think that's a bit incorrect?

Your still the same fool who keeps thinking in a week or two and 3 days playing with a new racket that the world has changed and you have become an expert. But, here I will quote a post from very recently, in fact, the time stamp on the post says 21 hours ago:


I didn't record anything because I was out of battery and also time, but I'll get something next time. It's very similar to the last video I posted, for reference. I'm just trying to spin more.


I think I'm just simply bumping into the ball and not rolling it over the topsheet. Is it inconsistency in blade angle? How exactly would I go about fixing this with simple drills for example?

So, in 21 hours you've stopped banging into the ball, you started brushing flawlessly and you are now the level that David Song made the assumption you might be?

Wow, the accidental troll is now graduating to high level player. Lets see some good footage of you hitting with a live human where we can see both you and your opponent and see the amazing improvements.

BTW: date stamps on the two videos are from April 15 and March 22 so, 2 weeks ago and 5 weeks ago.

In 5 weeks, without coaching and with no playing partners who know how to create loop spin, you have gone from beginner to expert. Good to know. We should call Ben Larcombe and tell him we've got a new candidate and a new challenge. Expert in one month. Or is that Expert in your mind.

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 02:53 PM
No, Carl. I haven't implied any of those things. I've just implied that I've actually improved a bit, but I'm still not there.

I'm a lot more "there" than on the very first video I posted, and I'm a bit more "there" than the 2nd video I posted, but not yet. I'm definitely not brushing flawlessly, otherwise I'd probably be getting more satisfactory results.

What I am now is really not what I'm concerned about, I'm a lot more concerned about what exactly I should do. There has to be some kind of exercise to enable me to learn the touch to spin the ball with a very vertical stroke. I can do it just fine when I serve, so why not when I swing upwards?

If it's my timing, how do I improve my timing? If it's my sense of blade angle, how do I improve my blade angle sensing? etc.

UpSideDownCarl
04-30-2016, 03:00 PM
No, Carl. I haven't implied any of those things. I've just implied that I've actually improved a bit, but I'm still not there.

I'm a lot more "there" than on the very first video I posted, and I'm a bit more "there" than the 2nd video I posted, but not yet. I'm definitely not brushing flawlessly, otherwise I'd probably be getting more satisfactory results.

What I am now is really not what I'm concerned about, I'm a lot more concerned about what exactly I should do. There has to be some kind of exercise to enable me to learn the touch to spin the ball with a very vertical stroke. I can do it just fine when I serve, so why not when I swing upwards?

If it's my timing, how do I improve my timing? If it's my sense of blade angle, how do I improve my blade angle sensing? etc.

And my post was to inform David that he gave great information for someone else. :) Your tendency to present yourself as higher level than you are clearly has an impact. And David answered to someone who is a decent player, who actually loops, who knows how to generate spin and make loop contact. And I was just informing him that he may have missed something.

And your response was:


@UpSideDownCarl

You've forgot how much younger people can improve in a short time, haven't you? Doing the bounce drill with my new equipment is easy and multiple times smoother in that video, and my game bears no resemblance to the first video I posted.

It's common to think that people will always be exactly as they are when you meet them, and if there's not any hard evidence of it, then they haven't changed a bit, but don't you think that's a bit incorrect?

Note, in the post I just excerpted, you bounce from responding to NL to me, because you are truly ADHD troll and can't help but argue with everyone at the same time.

If you were an honest person you would have told David, "well, honestly, I realize I am just trying to learn how to get good spin on the ball regardless of what kind of ball I am hitting against."

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 03:15 PM
Carl, instead of telling me how I should have presented myself, which is welcome in itself, I would still rather prefer it if you would give me help on the exact problem I am dealing with and asking about.

And @songdavid98 do post any further thoughts you have. Just understand that I'm not trying to learn a more efficient or deadlier brush loop: just a basic one.

UpSideDownCarl
04-30-2016, 03:42 PM
Carl, instead of telling me how I should have presented myself, which is welcome in itself, I would still rather prefer it if you would give me help on the exact problem I am dealing with and asking about.

And @songdavid98 do post any further thoughts you have. Just understand that I'm not trying to learn a more efficient or deadlier brush loop: just a basic one.

Well, actually I did. So did Baal. Here:


No, I think the answer is shear trial and error, so you figure it out yourself. That comes from multiball drills where someone feed you balls of various spins and speeds. As time goes on they feed you more varied balls but initially they concentrate on the balls you can make; then the balls you miss; then gradual increase in variation.

It is the only way to get to where you can do it without thinking about it when you are under pressure. You can't be thinking about mechanics when playing live.

In other words, on the ones you miss, you are given so many balls that you sort of figure it out. You try all sorts of things. One of those things will be the correct answer.

And here is mine; I will leave out the comedy and leave my actual answer which took into account the fact that I know you don't have access to a coach to feed you multiball:


But you could try that ball bounce thing the way I do it:


https://youtu.be/ezBW4kePyrc

Use 20-30 balls minimum so you get rapid succession practice. You keep trying to brush and every so often you feel something different. Then over time you start feeling it more and more often. And then you can do it every time when you do the ball bounce. Then you realize that while you are hitting with a real person you are still hitting flat and you start trying to brush and at a certain point you start getting it. Then at a certain point you can do it most of the time.

Otherwise you can go out and buy yourself one of those wheels:


https://youtu.be/3ztZKeGZsao

When you are not brushing with that, when you bang into it you know. But if you bang into it hard, you can break your racket.

With any of the methods for learning that kind of contact, there will still be a transitional period where you can do it in the drill but not against a person.

The drills are just to get you to know how to brush and what it feels like. Then you have to experiment and practice to get in while playing against someone.

David's comment was based on the idea that you are actually already looping. But you don't need more answers. You need to practice till you get it. If you had a good coach, you would learn it more quickly.

But somehow you don't get that your responses to DavidSong were misleading and fall right into the category that gets you in trouble over and over again.

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 03:47 PM
Either you're not understanding that I'm talking about specifically a very vertical shot, or I'm not understanding that the fundamentals are exactly the same no matter how vertical or horizontal the shot.

Whatever it is, I guess I'll have to post a video later so you guys can see if my form is terribly out of whack, and if not, then I guess I'll just keep hammering it in for a few months and see what happens.

Der_Echte
04-30-2016, 05:06 PM
Every ball is different. Fundamentals and principles are forever applicable. Knowing how to judge an incoming ball is a skill, and very central to what stroke you prepare. You fundamentals of basic stance and mental readiness are a foundation before you can read the ball.

When you get to a point after enough learning of basics and practical experience of this or that not not working, you will know almost instantly what you did wrong if something goes wrong.

When we are recreational players without any training or instruction or experience or means to meaningful practice to get the reps and experience, it is a damned difficult situation to learn and grow. NOT Mission Impossible, but damned difficult to grow at an acceptabe rate. TT is a tough sport to learn and even with proper help, it takes a LONG time to get good.

I started out as a slightly portly gent in my young 40s as a rec player. I THOUGHT I was a serious player, but my first 6 years, I had zero coaching or help. All I had was internet forums, which helped a LOT, and Larry Hodges; excellent basic TT book Steps to Success: Table Tennis.

My early forum days were pretty much like Archos. I was eager and keen about TT, loved playing and loved discussing it 100x more. I talked on matters like I was real solid, where I really didn't have but 20% of the experience needed. That is why I cut Archos a lot of slack and never really chimed in about calling him out for not really being solid and experienced about what he is talking about. All I saw was a kid loving TT and trying to participate with everyone. Archos took it to a new level about where I over-extended in my early days, but others have already done the deed of dime-ing him out, so it needed zero intervention from me.

Over time, ANY reasonable gent can do a decent job of discerning character, and the TT forums have a sufficient enough forgiveness and allow for tolerance to a good degree. Heck, they put up with me my first half decade of Der_Echte opening hiz mouth and jamming in foot and still do.

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 05:54 PM
Der_, I understand you've served as active mil.

Exactly how many years of service time is mandatory to be able to spin first, ask questions later without batting an eye?



:rolleyes:

Shuki
04-30-2016, 06:06 PM
@der_echte

I like this most recent post. It's true, the better you get the less you ask questions as to "why didn't that go over the way I wanted" At my level, I've noticed a lot of player's don't quite have the fundamentals and adaptability that I have. So when I play someone around my level for the first time, I go through a variety of serves and find one that they struggled with immensely. I can then repeat the same serve 3-4 times in a row without them having any adaptation and still struggling to find out exactly how they should be hitting the ball.

And then even when they figure out how to get that ball over decently, I'm ready to counter that. Once you get to a certain level, lets say 1850-1900ish, doing the same exact serve twice in a row simply wont work because the opponent knows exactly what they did wrong and can correct their mistake immediately.

Der_Echte
04-30-2016, 06:08 PM
Thanks Shuki... but at 1900 level, even in the ringer infested East Coast... you can get away with it.

Serving effectively is both a science and art and also a mind game.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Shuki
04-30-2016, 06:10 PM
Thanks Shuki... but at 1900 level, even in the ringer infested East Coast... you can get away with it.

Serving effectively is both a science and art and also a mind game.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Really? I'd love to come to the east coast, our 1900 level players are pretty strong here's a video of a penholder we have.

He got the second game I believe, and deuce the third. First game was poor we can skip that ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBI7KoLVkfk

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 06:10 PM
@der_echte

I like this most recent post. It's true, the better you get the less you ask questions as to "why didn't that go over the way I wanted" At my level, I've noticed a lot of player's don't quite have the fundamentals and adaptability that I have. So when I play someone around my level for the first time, I go through a variety of serves and find one that they struggled with immensely. I can then repeat the same serve 3-4 times in a row without them having any adaptation and still struggling to find out exactly how they should be hitting the ball.

And then even when they figure out how to get that ball over decently, I'm ready to counter that. Once you get to a certain level, lets say 1850-1900ish, doing the same exact serve twice in a row simply wont work because the opponent knows exactly what they did wrong and can correct their mistake immediately.

I have some experience in very technical things akin to TT, so that problem doesn't plague me terribly. For this matter, I just find answers for every single problem I could have at this level, except the one I'm intending to fix! Maybe eventually I will get to the point in the long list where "brush loop" is. :rolleyes:

Der_Echte
04-30-2016, 06:12 PM
Great stuff. Yet I still stand by what I say.

As a general practice, Der_Echte does NOT serve same serve twice consecutively vs that crowd... or any crowd... but there are times when it still works well.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Shuki
04-30-2016, 06:14 PM
I have some experience in very technical things akin to TT, so that problem doesn't plague me terribly. For this matter, I just find answers for every single problem I could have at this level, except the one I'm intending to fix! Maybe eventually I will get to the point in the long list where "brush loop" is. :rolleyes:

You don't have all the answers except this one ;]. There will always be questions. A great player once told me, every game you play, you learn something new. Even if you played poorly, you learned something in that loss and you are now a better player than you were 15 minutes ago. There's a difference between knowledge of how something works and what to do, and UNDERSTANDING. Understanding is only gained through experience while knowledge could be derived from intelligence and knowing the physics and anatomy behind things.

ttmonster
04-30-2016, 06:45 PM
This is great information , but as they say in our country , don't feed too much butter to the dog and it might lose its fur .... no offense intended .. Archo , just focus on getting the ball on the table with as much spin as possible , forget about speed for now .

Not many people analyze the backswing or the elbow or their stance

tldr; if you plan to loop hard, get your body lower but, don't lower your backswing too low.

Assuming you know how to topspin the ball well:

If you can loop underspin fine, but still loop out when encountering no spin, the quick short term solution is to let the ball drop down, close your racket more and then loop it (not too hard). It's not very effective, but it gets the ball on the table.

The long term solution(for those athletes who want to be competitive):
You can close your racket angle, but it will take away some speed.

Looping underspin serves requires you to drop the paddle low. After all, you must first go down low in order to go up fast.
If you drop the paddle too low, you are forced to hit upwards and it becomes very easy to loop the ball out if your opponent serves topspin or no spin.

Instead, just change the backswing. Bring your paddle back and a little less down. You still have to spin the ball of course.
Make you have a mirror or a video camera or something to help you look at what you are doing.
Most players don't realize how far their arm drops, since all they focus on is how fast they try to follow through. Players don't realize how much they drop their arms when they try to loop a no spin serve.

If you plan to snap your forearm, make sure you get your elbow low. The harder you plan to loop, the lower you would have to go.
(I'm a lefty penholder and I loop really hard, so my elbow is as low as the table or the net.)
If your elbow is too high, it is very difficult to hit forward. (you are almost forced to loop upwards, thus making people go out.
A forward motion is extremely important if you plan to loop hard and punish a serve, since going forward faster lowers the trajectory of your loop. And faster shots require lower trajectories.
Of course, the height of your elbow depends on the ball too(if it's really high or low), so adjust accordingly.
I have seen a lot of older players, and tall players especially who can't or don't get low enough.

One last thing thing is to lean forward. it is an easy way to change your looping motion into something that is directed in a more forward direction, lowering the trajectory of the loop even further. It also helps drop the elbow a little.

As a little extra:
Counterlooping openers and counter attacking is done the same way. Most people go out when they try to counterloop off of a heavy topspin loop because loopers like us are used to dropping our arm and lifting the ball. (This is fine in most scenarios) Instead, you have to raise your backswing to the appropriate height(the height of the loop matters quite a lot) and loop through the ball. Backhand punching follows the same logic. You don't drop your paddle. You raise it to the appropriate height and hit through the ball.

I can't counterloop those openers without leaning forward and raising my backswing a little and getting my body lower.

I have had this problem for years, since I loved looping underspin (and almost all I ever did, since the players I played then didn't block well). I would get frustrated when people served no spin, sidespin/topspin, because I would go out.

Having fixed this problem, I get to pretend to be Xu Xin and counterloop openers and flips all day :D and of course punish long and half long serves.

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 06:59 PM
@Shuki

Every time I learn something new, 3 new questions arise.

It's very pleasant, actually. Instead of a rigid goal to aim for, you find out that there's many ways to do whatever it is you're doing. So while new questions and struggles might arrive, they also bring new opportunities. That's why I can't wait until I get all of this basic bullshit to a sensible level and I can really start playing the game. :rolleyes:

@ttmonster

Do you think it'd be a good idea to actually completely drop the "on the table" part for now, and just focus on spin, then once I know how to do that, then care about getting it on the table?

Shuki
04-30-2016, 07:11 PM
@Shuki

Every time I learn something new, 3 new questions arise.

It's very pleasant, actually. Instead of a rigid goal to aim for, you find out that there's many ways to do whatever it is you're doing. So while new questions and struggles might arrive, they also bring new opportunities. That's why I can't wait until I get all of this basic bullshit to a sensible level and I can really start playing the game. :rolleyes:


"Having the "basics" developed well enough to actually play the game will take around 3 years, give or take a couple months of focused training. Don't expect to get it in a year. I'm sure you've seen the "expert in a year" documentation. of the player getting coached every day and focused on getting good in a year. Didn't turn out the way they had hoped.


I try and look at things and understand "why" this is optimal. Try and remember a long chop/push to deep forehand is hard to loop WELL. There are reasons for this. As a ball is rising it takes away speed from your stroke. If your stroke goes up at 8 mph and the backspin ball is rising at 2 miles an hour, well now your stroke is only 6mph. Now lets take into consideration that the push was deep and wide and that you have to be moving AWAY from the table. lets say you're moving away at 3mph. Well now your 8mph stroke is only making contact with the ball at 3mph. 8-2-3=3.

When you're doing these drills you're not hitting the ball on the rise, so when it comes to a game you will find the no-spin balls more difficult. Instead of hitting them on the fall which actually adds speed to your stroke, making it easier to loop, you may catch your timing being off hitting it earlier on the rise or at various different times.

ttmonster
04-30-2016, 07:21 PM
You could , but how will you know if you spun it, if it does not kick off the table . The point its spin and consistency is interlinked , the more you can spin the more it will be on the table.

On the no spin , there are many ways to go about it , the easiest is to spin with a thin contact. And this is true for all ball where you are kind of unsure about the direction and amount of incoming spin.

Ofcourse , there are other ways to deal with it , for now just focus on loading up on spin and landing it on the table. There will be a alot of things to work with once you start putting things on the table.

But my sincere advice, is go out and try to make friends and get to know other table tennis player not matter what it takes in terms of improving your social skills or even taking BS , so that have you different players to play with as long as they have different playing styles and are one or two levels above or below you... this will solve a lot of your issues.



@Shuki

Every time I learn something new, 3 new questions arise.

It's very pleasant, actually. Instead of a rigid goal to aim for, you find out that there's many ways to do whatever it is you're doing. So while new questions and struggles might arrive, they also bring new opportunities. That's why I can't wait until I get all of this basic bullshit to a sensible level and I can really start playing the game. :rolleyes:

@ttmonster

Do you think it'd be a good idea to actually completely drop the "on the table" part for now, and just focus on spin, then once I know how to do that, then care about getting it on the table?

Archosaurus
04-30-2016, 07:51 PM
It's better to observe how the ball reacts on the table than the arc to gauge spin, right?

I've noticed that my fast topspin shots look like they're not bouncing off the table and instead just skipping forward off it, and they're also not coming back from the wall too much anymore, so I'm pretty sure it's topspin. I had to improve my elbow and wrist snap a lot, and then it suddenly started happening.

Exactly what kind of bounce should I expect from a slower shot with a high arc? Just as low, or only compared to the original arc?

Sometimes when the ball goes out of play and is bouncing near my forehand wing, I'll try to lift it on my partner's side of the table around the net with a short, fast loop stroke. Top of the bounce will be about chest height and the second bounce will only go navel height, a bit above the hips, and it'll speed up. I should probably stop doing that, because they're not catching the ball in their hand anymore. :p

Is that kind of contact what I would want for my slow loops?

ttmonster
04-30-2016, 08:40 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORfCiNf8mWk
It's better to observe how the ball reacts on the table than the arc to gauge spin, right?

I've noticed that my fast topspin shots look like they're not bouncing off the table and instead just skipping forward off it, and they're also not coming back from the wall too much anymore, so I'm pretty sure it's topspin. I had to improve my elbow and wrist snap a lot, and then it suddenly started happening.

Exactly what kind of bounce should I expect from a slower shot with a high arc? Just as low, or only compared to the original arc?

Sometimes when the ball goes out of play and is bouncing near my forehand wing, I'll try to lift it on my partner's side of the table around the net with a short, fast loop stroke. Top of the bounce will be about chest height and the second bounce will only go navel height, a bit above the hips, and it'll speed up. I should probably stop doing that, because they're not catching the ball in their hand anymore. :p

Is that kind of contact what I would want for my slow loops?

ttmonster
04-30-2016, 08:46 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1PYvDHohIE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORfCiNf8mWk
It's better to observe how the ball reacts on the table than the arc to gauge spin, right?

I've noticed that my fast topspin shots look like they're not bouncing off the table and instead just skipping forward off it, and they're also not coming back from the wall too much anymore, so I'm pretty sure it's topspin. I had to improve my elbow and wrist snap a lot, and then it suddenly started happening.

Exactly what kind of bounce should I expect from a slower shot with a high arc? Just as low, or only compared to the original arc?

Sometimes when the ball goes out of play and is bouncing near my forehand wing, I'll try to lift it on my partner's side of the table around the net with a short, fast loop stroke. Top of the bounce will be about chest height and the second bounce will only go navel height, a bit above the hips, and it'll speed up. I should probably stop doing that, because they're not catching the ball in their hand anymore. :p

Is that kind of contact what I would want for my slow loops?

ttmonster
04-30-2016, 08:50 PM
Against no spin, the starting point of your backwing will be not that low but lower than a regular topspin against topspin counter and you finishing point will be slightly in front with the bat face a little more closed .. hope the videos help

The questions about the bounce off the table and the arc should get answered if you watch both videos carefully in detail ...

songdavid98
05-01-2016, 02:29 AM
Turns out a lot has happened in the 12 hours I have gone.

True, I thought I was giving advice to a more developed player. However, that doesn't mean my advice can't apply to developing players. After all, I just suggested to lean forward and get lower, which are fundamentals.

Still, Carl makes a good point. I gave a crap ton of technical advice about the backswing(which I believe is a big problem for beginners).

However, I posted more in response to the thread's title, so I decided to give advice to the community as a whole rather than to one person. After all, this is a forum, not a coaching session.

So I decided to add more details for the more experienced players :D

@Archo Let's see your new stroke. Who knows, I might be a miracle worker :P (just kidding, can't even make my own backhand strong enough)

By the way, for just basic looping strokes, it really depends on what your intention is, simply because of the fact that there are different kinds of loops. So in a way, there are a couple of different "basic looping strokes."

What matters even more is what kind of shot is given to you. When you watch videos of world class players practicing their loop, please realize that the block that comes back to them is also played by a professional, meaning it is low, fast, and has a decent amount of topspin.
If all you do is try to copy their stroke, you will soon realize that you will go into the net since most players give much slower, higher, and less topspinny blocks. (I hate high blocks by the way; they make you have to pay close attention to height)

UpSideDownCarl
05-01-2016, 03:54 AM
For me, one of the things I am actually wondering about is: Is Archie now talking about a dead ball that is coming to him from a serve? A shot that was a dead ball because one of his training partners hits dead balls in a rally? Or is he still talking about the dead balls from self hitting that he as originally talking about in this thread?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT5Z8ncS-QM


Regardless, there has been a lot of good information on looping dead balls that would benefit a player who really is facing real variations in spin.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel
05-01-2016, 04:00 AM
The difference between you and me one one hand and archo on the other is that both of us had USATT ratings and (I guess for you but definitely for me) did not misrepresent our levels. I drove people crazy enough that they thought I was a troll on mytt. Some people still consider me the most respectable troll of all time, because I sometimes needle the people I am tying to help.

One of the reasons why I respect Sebas (other than when he hides behind unknown identities) is that he does not mask himself like the worst trolls do. The main reason I cut archo slack is that real trolls never reveal themselves. They know that once you see them play, most of their power to annoy you is gone.

What's really unfortunate is that archo does not know the difference in level between club play and casual play. It just has to be experienced to be understood.


Every ball is different. Fundamentals and principles are forever applicable. Knowing how to judge an incoming ball is a skill, and very central to what stroke you prepare. You fundamentals of basic stance and mental readiness are a foundation before you can read the ball.

When you get to a point after enough learning of basics and practical experience of this or that not not working, you will know almost instantly what you did wrong if something goes wrong.

When we are recreational players without any training or instruction or experience or means to meaningful practice to get the reps and experience, it is a damned difficult situation to learn and grow. NOT Mission Impossible, but damned difficult to grow at an acceptabe rate. TT is a tough sport to learn and even with proper help, it takes a LONG time to get good.

I started out as a slightly portly gent in my young 40s as a rec player. I THOUGHT I was a serious player, but my first 6 years, I had zero coaching or help. All I had was internet forums, which helped a LOT, and Larry Hodges; excellent basic TT book Steps to Success: Table Tennis.

My early forum days were pretty much like Archos. I was eager and keen about TT, loved playing and loved discussing it 100x more. I talked on matters like I was real solid, where I really didn't have but 20% of the experience needed. That is why I cut Archos a lot of slack and never really chimed in about calling him out for not really being solid and experienced about what he is talking about. All I saw was a kid loving TT and trying to participate with everyone. Archos took it to a new level about where I over-extended in my early days, but others have already done the deed of dime-ing him out, so it needed zero intervention from me.

Over time, ANY reasonable gent can do a decent job of discerning character, and the TT forums have a sufficient enough forgiveness and allow for tolerance to a good degree. Heck, they put up with me my first half decade of Der_Echte opening hiz mouth and jamming in foot and still do.

Archosaurus
05-01-2016, 05:46 AM
monster, I noticed the angle in the video is more closed than I'm thinking is correct. For no-spin, I imagine it'd be even closer to 45deg. I think I have an idea of how I could do this stroke, now.

Carl, I'm talking mostly about self hitting balls, but also balls in rallies. I'm having an easier time making better contact with the balls that actually come at me.

Also thanks for posting that video: I noticed I was actually contacting more forward than upward. Lately I've been trying to brush more up and follow through up as well, because that's where I want the force to go. I think I was basically turning a perfectly fine brush stroke into a drive just before contact.

Notice how the shadows in the beginning are different from my stroke. I wasn't letting the brush happen.

Song, the point about amateur vs pro blocks is good. I've got a lot more accustomed to dealing with nearly chest height balls than perhaps a bit lower balls that I'd prefer. I should really get someone to block for me so I can deal with terrible placement inconsistency AND garbage balls. From what I understand, it's a pretty important skill. :p

I love your avatar by the way. Shame only 12ep and we're probably not getting more.



I have a pretty decent idea of what I should do now. There's no wonder I wasn't getting any spin before. Prepare for some video hopefully on monday. Thanks, guys.

EDIT: So I rigged a setup with my bed frame where I can place the ball on it like on the edge of the table and practice brushing there. It's not going to teach me how to generate a LOT of spin, but it's going to teach me to brush rather than hit. I figured I needed something at home to practice this with, that won't make a ton of noise.

I'm not as consistent as I'd like, but there's a pretty clear difference between spin and no spin. Amount of spin isn't high because I'm going very slow, but the effect on the bedsheet is apparent. I'm using Joola Spinballs so I can see the rotation a bit better in the air.


Does this method make any sense?

songdavid98
05-01-2016, 03:56 PM
Does this method make any sense?

I assume your setup allows you to spins balls onto your bedsheet where you can see it spin. This makes sense. I can do this with the wall. I would loop the ball against a wall, the ball would bounce off, and then spin back towards the wall.

Brushing the ball should be like peeling an apple as opposed to smashing into the apple, if you want an analogy.

Just know that learning to put spin will take a lot of time. Just keep trying! Remember to follow through because some things don't work if you slow down your stroke. I'm looking forward to the video.

To the community in general (I'm pretty sure I have the right audience this time), when you see a low no spin ball, unless you are very familiar with this shot, don't try to punish the opponent with a ridiculously fast attack. Sure, you might look cool, like One-Punch Man, but you're more likely to miss.
Just because a ball has little spin doesn't mean the shot isn't difficult.
Instead, a slower, well-placed loop will be much more effective.

Archosaurus
05-01-2016, 04:27 PM
Sure, you might look cool, like One-Punch Man, but you're more likely to miss.


Expectation:

9892


Reality:

9893

UpSideDownCarl
05-01-2016, 04:53 PM
And at the risk of redundancy, for Archie, since the actual issue is learning to make brush contact, then this exercise:


https://youtu.be/ezBW4kePyrc

With 20-30 balls in a bucket you will get a decent number of reps so that, when you accidentally brush the ball there is more of a chance to repeat it. The number of reps is why this method would be more useful than using one ball and bouncing it on the floor.

The bed idea sounds fine as well.

In the end whatever gets Archie feeling how to brush is good. And as I already said, when Archie can brush while self hitting, then he will start to learn how to do it while facing a real opponent. But that could take some time after he is able to do it with the self hit method.

If Archie had access to a coach or players at a decent level I would give different info. But since this is what Archie has access to, self hitting is probably his best option. But he needs more reps than one ball at a time and then going to pick the ball up before the next rep.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel
05-01-2016, 04:57 PM
Here are two videos by Samson Dubina - he doesn't discuss no spin but the concept of friction he describes is helpful. This is what most lower level players don't understand and something many higher level players do intuitively but struggle to teach.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azopxzp-gc0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pICY7xbwsQ

Archosaurus
05-01-2016, 06:10 PM
Quick question:

What exactly is happening if it feels like I'm brushing, but I still need to increase velocity if I want more spin?

Am I driving into the ball very gently while I brush, which results in this need to increase velocity every time I increase spin? If I had a more pure brushing contact, would I be getting just more spin with more bat head speed, or are there some other dynamics to it, like the ball bouncing off the sponge?

ttmonster
05-01-2016, 06:46 PM
Man, you need to consult somebody in person, honestly. With proper brushing contact the translational motion does not need to increase when you are increasing the torque. With proper whip and timing of waist / weight shift you should be able to get more and more spin without increasing the speed of the ball. Its all in the contact archie ...


Quick question:

What exactly is happening if it feels like I'm brushing, but I still need to increase velocity if I want more spin?

Am I driving into the ball very gently while I brush, which results in this need to increase velocity every time I increase spin? If I had a more pure brushing contact, would I be getting just more spin with more bat head speed, or are there some other dynamics to it, like the ball bouncing off the sponge?

Archosaurus
05-01-2016, 06:51 PM
Man, you need to consult somebody in person, honestly. With proper brushing contact the translational motion does not need to increase when you are increasing the torque. With proper whip and timing of waist / weight shift you should be able to get more and more spin without increasing the speed of the ball. Its all in the contact archie ...
That's what I was trying to find out. I don't want to keep practicing the same, wrong thing.

So the only explanation is that I'm not applying force as purely towards generating spin as I'd like. Probably still "cutting into the apple" a bit.

NextLevel
05-01-2016, 07:05 PM
As a wise man once told me, you need to post video to get proper feedback. Without the video he posted for us, Archosaurus would still be Ma Long in his head watching idiots like NextLevel play ping pong.

Shuki
05-02-2016, 01:56 AM
Song, the point about amateur vs pro blocks is good. I've got a lot more accustomed to dealing with nearly chest height balls than perhaps a bit lower balls that I'd prefer. I should really get someone to block for me so I can deal with terrible placement inconsistency AND garbage balls. From what I understand, it's a pretty important skill. :p

Poor Archosaur. When you're playing ANY player, regardless of level, and you're practicing something with them, they WILL be able to adjust and block more and more consistently. If you've ever had reps with a high level player you'd think that you're pretty damn good because you can place it on them to "close to similar spot" every time. This is because regardless of how terrible your ball is, they can fix it and place it where you'd be able to do your stroke consistently again.

So if your training partner isn't getting the hang of blocking against you, you can't blame them for being bad. You are also to blame. Maybe if you could give them the same spin and pace to the same area they could block it. But when every ball is different and you're playing someone not great, you can't be upset with them for not blocking well.




As a wise man once told me, you need to post video to get proper feedback. Without the video he posted for us, Archosaurus would still be Ma Long in his head watching idiots like NextLevel play ping pong.

He still may be Ma Long in his head. I feel like if he got a real coach it may consist of him telling his coach that he can do all the strokes the coach wants him to work on fine and he'd rather work on getting more spin.

Archosaurus
05-02-2016, 07:25 AM
Nowhere did I say that blocking inconsistency is not my fault as well. There's a clear "How good I'm doing vs how good they're doing" correlation.

What do you suggest I do, attempt to not produce more spin? Am I not attempting to learn a contact where I'm producing more spin and less velocity? Should I just shadow my strokes 2x as much as I do now and forget hitting, then?

ttmonster
05-02-2016, 07:46 AM
This problem has only one solution Archo, you have to find a better hitting partner if you are not getting consistent blocks.

You could dial down on spin to focus on recovery and footwork when you find that you are not able to get a consistent feed...

Nowhere did I say that blocking inconsistency is not my fault as well. There's a clear "How good I'm doing vs how good they're doing" correlation.

What do you suggest I do, attempt to not produce more spin? Am I not attempting to learn a contact where I'm producing more spin and less velocity? Should I just shadow my strokes 2x as much as I do now and forget hitting, then?

Shuki
05-02-2016, 03:22 PM
I would actually recommend having your blocking partner block whatever ball you can give them consistently. If you can't consistently give the same amount of spin then you shouldn't be trying to force more into it. Hit the table in the same spot. Once you can do this consistently and they're blocking it consistently then try adding a little more spin. and then a little more. placement and consistency come first. Spin and speed come second.

Baal
05-02-2016, 03:46 PM
What do you suggest I do, attempt to not produce more spin?

My advice is for the time being don't worry about it. That will come with consistency as you progress. Right now you are thinking too much when you hit the ball. Relax. Concentrate on making transitions from forehand to backhand while still being able to hit controlled topspin shots. It is hard to say without more video, but from what little I watched I felt like you were trying to hit the ball a little too hard.

I got the impression from the thread that it is hard where you live to find coaching and decent practice partners, but that would help a lot. In any case, you need to get a bucket of balls so you can really spend time working at it rather than picking up the ball after each shot.

Archosaurus
05-02-2016, 04:33 PM
I played a bit today, under an hour. Warmup then we did some games, with my usual partner. No battery left in the phone and I had to come home fast to attend to more important matters, so I didn't get the video.

Good news are that I've improved a bit. I've stopped caring about spin and speed and just focused on getting the right contact with the right movement. I was surprised to see that I actually span the ball pretty well a few times! A loose wrist among other things discussed here have helped a lot.

Sometimes, the ball is still slipping off the bat (I feel that's due to not having enough bat speed when looping backspin), or I drive into it by mistake and it comes out pretty dead. Sometimes, it's pretty good. It looks like all of my successful loops are not gonna land on the table, but they do, so I'm a bit more confident in them now.


The ball brushing method with the bed frame probably did most of the work. I'll keep doing that among other drills and this should develop on itself, I think.


Thanks a lot for bearing with me over all this theoretical nonsense, but I've felt it has also helped. Now it's just down to practice.

UpSideDownCarl
05-02-2016, 10:44 PM
Yep. It's just down to practice.

The thread meandered but probably what you need to continue working on is brush contact.

At a certain point it will be natural. The rest, like when to make deeper contact, when to make thinner, when to make the loop slow and spinny, when to make it fast, they will start falling into place as you practice and become more successful at making loop contact when you choose.

As I see it, that is what you probably need to work on until you can do it every time.

The more specific and detailed information: your strokes are already decent. The contact may be different but the fundamental strokes won't change much. The angle of the stroke will change. You will feel that out. But the fundamentals of the stroke will remain fairly similar.

At some point you should get someone to video from your phone for you. You should have a real person hold the phone rather than your method of propping the phone on something and going to hit. If the person makes the video from 4 or more angles, you will be able to learn much more about what you are doing when you are hitting with someone. If each video/short is approx 15 seconds, that should be enough. Angles that would help you:

1) facing you from FH side
2) facing you from BH side
3) behind you from FH side
4) behind you from BH side

You can do more angles. But those 4 angles will give you different information about things you are doing.

Since mechanics are what they are, for observing your strokes you don't really need more than 15 seconds from each angle.

Whether you share those or not is up to you. But if you do that with someone looking in the camera and choosing the angles that give you good, full views of your strokes, it will help you and you will see stuff you did not know was there. For you, the most important of those views may be #1.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
05-02-2016, 11:13 PM
I'd really like a 250FPS slow motion camera: that'd probably make pretty clear just exactly how much am I brushing or not brushing. ;)


Barring that, I think the phone would do fine. I'll look into getting my partner to hold my phone next time.

Even without seeing my current strokes, I feel like I'd improve fine. I'm not shooting into the dark anymore, I have some substance to work with now. On top of it my shadow strokes look quite good and I'm not having problems translating them into games, so I think I can trust them. It's really just down to feel now.

NextLevel
05-02-2016, 11:14 PM
I'd really like a 250FPS slow motion camera: that'd probably make pretty clear just exactly how much am I brushing or not brushing. ;)


Barring that, I think the phone would do fine. I'll look into getting my partner to hold my phone next time.

Even without seeing my current strokes, I feel like I'd improve fine. I'm not shooting into the dark anymore, I have some substance to work with now. On top of it my shadow strokes look quite good and I'm not having problems translating them into games, so I think I can trust them. It's really just down to feel now.

Good for you, Ma Long.

Shuki
05-02-2016, 11:25 PM
Here's the thing arch. A LOT of us started coming to the forum's thinking we knew or know more than we truly understand. We thought we could put a lot of spin on the ball and were getting things down pretty well. So I see where you're coming from thinking that you're finally getting a good understanding. And I love to see how dedicated you are to improving. But being humble is what worked for us in getting farther with our games.

Although we may have thought we were better than we were, being humble and just accepting advice from higher level players got us so much farther and kept us well liked, frustrating little to nobody with our responses. When you say something like your problem is that you can't get more spin and the other aspects of your game are fine it sounds like you think you're really damn good. I know some loopers with very little spin that play at an extremely high level and still know about a lot of their weaknesses.

Parviz for instance, probably the best player at my club at the moment is a two winged looper without much strength or spin on his loops. But he plays for counters and making the opponent uncomfortable with his perfect placement. What my coach says is she works with her students on the basics until they get close to or over the level of 2000, which hasn't taken any of her students more than 3 years to obtain. At that point the next step is messing up the opponents timing.

I've played with Parviz numerous times and have gotten his full game. He gives me his all because not only have we played a lot, but he also starts me off with 5 points in the game to give himself more of a challenge considering he's a 2300 player. The thing I've noticed the most threatening about him, was when I would get in a backhand to backhand rally and then all of a sudden he'd do his backhand to my forehand. I didn't notice anything different in his stroke and the speed was the same as usual. So I would load up for a powerful forehand loop and then I noticed somehow I was jammed. He did this a couple more times in the game and I was truly confused because I saw the speed the ball was coming at me and got used to it. I couldn't have been winding up too big.

I talked to my coach afterward who was watching the game. She said he added spin to the ball but kept the same arc and speed when he switched it to my forehand. So when it bounced on my side it would speed up and my extended stroke would be too big. He was truly messing with my timing.

Shuki
05-02-2016, 11:28 PM
I'd really like a 250FPS slow motion camera: that'd probably make pretty clear just exactly how much am I brushing or not brushing. ;)


Barring that, I think the phone would do fine. I'll look into getting my partner to hold my phone next time.

Even without seeing my current strokes, I feel like I'd improve fine. I'm not shooting into the dark anymore, I have some substance to work with now. On top of it my shadow strokes look quite good and I'm not having problems translating them into games, so I think I can trust them. It's really just down to feel now.

The shadow strokes I've seen I wouldn't consider quite good but everyone's opinion on what's good is different. So now is your only problem in your game feel?


Good for you, Ma Long.
+2

NextLevel
05-02-2016, 11:38 PM
The shadow strokes I've seen I wouldn't consider quite good but everyone's opinion on what's good is different. So now is your only problem in your game feel?


+2

When he grows up, he will learn that other than in politics, it is best to underpromise and overdeliver. Or one will perpetually look and sound like an idiot around smart people.

ttmonster
05-02-2016, 11:42 PM
I can't find the right words to express my support @NextLevel. You have come up with another gem since the little statement you made about experience and talent :)

When he grows up, he will learn that other than in politics, it is best to underpromise and overdeliver. Or one will perpetually look and sound like an idiot around smart people.

SilentRain
05-02-2016, 11:49 PM
Slow and steady wins the race Arch. Maybe you could try my formula which i use when learning something new in TT (serves or strokes)

1. Getting it on the table
2. Maximising your Consistency
3. Developing a form
4. Increasing the power and spin
5. Perfecting the form with same/higher level of consistency, speed, spin and power.
6. Practicing different Placement and variety
7. Pushing this new technique or serve to the limit. This usually means you revert to step 1 but with a new starting point

Rinse repeat. Its not about being able to perform your serve/ shot once but consistently. You will always be improving no matter what. I started playing since I was 7 but my main serve (pendulum serve) is always evolving and changing. Its the same serve, but higher in quality as I'm always practicing it and pushing it to the limit. My serve now is different in quality to my serve last year.

From your statements, it seems as if you are progressing too fast without really understanding the fundamentals of what it is you are learning. Slow down. Do the same thing over and over again. I often find new players without a coach skipping "Grades" if you will because they think they are doing it when they are not. This seems to be the same case as you. If it took me about 3 months with 1 to 1 coaching to properly develop brushing, it is inconceivable to think that you, without a coach and proper training partners to developing your fundamentals in such a short amount of time. Heck it took me 6months to coach new members how to brush and it is still not at a level where I am satisfied for them to move on to something more advance.

Edit: Instead of trying to learn how to slow brush loop a no spin ball so that it has a high arc but with heavy topspin, perhaps it is better to devote your time in mastering the topspin loop then the backspin loop. Those are more important and mastering them will probably help you learn how to brush loop a no spin ball in the long run.

NextLevel
05-03-2016, 12:07 AM
I can't find the right words to express my support @NextLevel. You have come up with another gem since the little statement you made about experience and talent :)

I read too many books a long time ago to believe that I am not some cheap imitation of some far wiser person.

ttmonster
05-03-2016, 12:26 AM
Ha ha , true , I am sure we are all pretenders at some level or another. But then its also a way to carry the wisdom forward and onward into the world :P

I read too many books a long time ago to believe that I am not some cheap imitation of some far wiser person.

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2016, 12:53 AM
Archie: just a few small pieces of info:

1) you keep practicing brushing till you can do it when you want. There is no rush. You will feel the ones that have more spin. 2 years from now you will laugh and think of how little spin those have compared to your technique in 2 years.

2) your cell phone's camera is all you need. You are not conducting a science experiment. You will see what you need to from your cell phone's camera.

3) YOU DO NOT WANT YOUR TRAINING PARTNER FILMING YOU. He can't film you and hit the ball back. YOU NEED PROPER FOOTAGE OF YOU HITTING WITH SOMEONE. This has little to do with brushing. I promise, you will see stuff you weren't expecting if you see footage from those angles I said while you are hitting with a real live human. That means you need to get a 3rd person to film for you. It should take less than 5 min for the person to get several clips of 15 seconds each from all 4 of those angles. SO FOR 5 min YOU NEED A 3rd PERSON. You can get a friend to do you a favor.

4) the footage is not about the brushing but seeing yourself will still help. I will continue to maintain that I don't need to see the footage and neither does anyone else here, unless you want to post it. But you seeing it WILL HELP YOU: ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU THINK YOU KNOW WHAT YOU WILL SEE. Trust me. Seeing what you are doing will help you.

Find a friend to come to the table while you are hitting. Wait till you are warm enough. Like, make the person show up 30 min after you start hitting so you are warm. And get them to film from different angles while you hit.

I know, I am staying focused on these simple details. It's because you tend to get yourself wrapped up in a miasma of stuff that seems to distract you from what you need to focus on.

Too bad you don't have access to a good coach. He would make you work on the stuff you need to focus on instantly. No messing around.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Shuki
05-03-2016, 04:09 AM
]
3) YOU DO NOT WANT YOUR TRAINING PARTNER FILMING YOU. He can't film you and hit the ball back. YOU NEED PROPER FOOTAGE OF YOU HITTING WITH SOMEONE. This has little to do with brushing. I promise, you will see stuff you weren't expecting if you see footage from those angles I said while you are hitting with a real live human. That means you need to get a 3rd person to film for you. It should take less than 5 min for the person to get several clips of 15 seconds each from all 4 of those angles. SO FOR 5 min YOU NEED A 3rd PERSON. You can get a friend to do you a favor.


As someone who hasn't read this entire thread, what are these angles? I'd like to do this myself aswell. I've noticed from some angles my strokes look damn close to what I think I'm doing, but from others they're completely different.

edit: sorry to make you reiterate what you've already posted

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2016, 04:24 AM
As someone who hasn't read this entire thread, what are these angles? I'd like to do this myself aswell. I've noticed from some angles my strokes look damn close to what I think I'm doing, but from others they're completely different.

edit: sorry to make you reiterate what you've already posted

Oh, man. Are you going to make me quote myself.....again! I feel silly with how often I quote myself. But this quote is from the last page of THIS thread. I bet you could go back one page and find it easy. :) Well, I guess I can quote myself as much as Carl Jung or Mircea Eliade. Hahaha.


Yep. It's just down to practice.

The thread meandered but probably what you need to continue working on is brush contact.

At a certain point it will be natural. The rest, like when to make deeper contact, when to make thinner, when to make the loop slow and spinny, when to make it fast, they will start falling into place as you practice and become more successful at making loop contact when you choose.

As I see it, that is what you probably need to work on until you can do it every time.

The more specific and detailed information: your strokes are already decent. The contact may be different but the fundamental strokes won't change much. The angle of the stroke will change. You will feel that out. But the fundamentals of the stroke will remain fairly similar.

At some point you should get someone to video from your phone for you. You should have a real person hold the phone rather than your method of propping the phone on something and going to hit. If the person makes the video from 4 or more angles, you will be able to learn much more about what you are doing when you are hitting with someone. If each video/short is approx 15 seconds, that should be enough. Angles that would help you:

1) facing you from FH side
2) facing you from BH side
3) behind you from FH side
4) behind you from BH side

You can do more angles. But those 4 angles will give you different information about things you are doing.

Since mechanics are what they are, for observing your strokes you don't really need more than 15 seconds from each angle.

Whether you share those or not is up to you. But if you do that with someone looking in the camera and choosing the angles that give you good, full views of your strokes, it will help you and you will see stuff you did not know was there. For you, the most important of those views may be #1.

There. So Shuki, you might as well read my whole post. It explains why I keep trying to get Archie focused back on the simple priorities.

There have been lots of great posts about lots of different aspects of technique and looping of low balls, high balls, dead balls, topspin, backspin, multiball, blocking, chopping. Very little of this has to do with what Archie was actually asking. In fact what Archie was really asking should be rephrased. It is this:

How do I brush the ball and generate spin when I am feeding the ball to myself and it does not start with spin on it.

Answer: Brush and keep practicing. Brush and keep practicing.

The rest of the thread is great. But almost all of it is besides the point for Archie because: a) he doesn't have a partner who can actually block his loops, b) he isn't actually looping, he is driving, c) he doesn't have a coach, d) he doesn't have someone who can feed him multiball, e) he doesn't have a shortage of hitting partners who can feed him dead balls because most of us would consider all the topspin or chopped balls he receives from his hitting partners as very light or dead, f) he is really looking to learn how to brush consistently so he can start implementing that in his practice time with his hitting partners: in other words when he made the title to this thread, he really meant, how do I get really good spin when I self hit; what am I doing wrong. So it makes perfect sense how he got great answers about how to hit dead balls but not too many answers about the actual question he was trying to find answers to. (Brush and keep practicing). :)

But regardless of if he is brushing or not, him seeing actual footage of himself, where he is really playing with an opponent, not self hitting, would definitely help Archie even if he never let any of us see it.

Shuki
05-03-2016, 04:36 AM
thanks! when a thread gets long, I tend to just read whatever page the thread is currently on ;)

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2016, 04:38 AM
thanks! when a thread gets long, I tend to just read whatever page the thread is currently on ;)

Then you definitely don't want to read any of Mircea Eliade's books. hahaha.

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2016, 05:01 AM
Okay. These are some of the best posts ever. And they have to do with how you generate spin. And they were directed to an infamous deadballer back in the day.


More than the sound, there is the ball trajectory and clearly the ball is going down instantly after than contact, it goes over the net only because the contact point is very very high. The real test of skill is to top spin this huge underspin ball with a contact point under the net, forcing you to create an arc.

I do think that if the bat speed matches the spin of the ball, you should get a returning spin not far from the incomming one, and it's obviously not the case here.....only judging from the bounce of the returning ball. It is possible to loop this ball by using "brut force", meaning as described by Pnachtwey, by reaching a very high paddle speed..........but it is also possible to loop this ball by touch.......has you described, by reaching a high dwell time (= "grabbing" the incomming spin).

Touch is everything in table tennis. I have faster arm speed on my FH loop than many of my team mates in my tt club, but a team mate is able to input incredible spin, more than me, even with is "slow motion" FH loop. He is able, thx to his touch, to deform the rubber even on "slow motion" strokes.

See this video of Shlager (serves) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD02s8uTSzw

I do believe that anyone here can reach far higher bat speed on a pendelum serve than Schlager is using for most of his serves here. But nobody here is able to imput has much spin than Schlager. Thanks to his amazing touch, Schlager is able to input more deformation than us to his rubber, resulting to more spin than anyone of us, he is maximazing dwell time. And this is what you explain also at the end of your post, the acceleration is an important factor to reach a better dwell time/rubber deformation/higher spin.


@Pnachtwey

If youthinks that he is looping the robot ball, clearly there is someting mistaken about looping. Once again it's only because the contact point is ultra high that the ball is going over the net (I could get this beckspin ball past the net even without moving my racket, yup with a static racket, it would be ez, same are some adjustments anyone here will be able to falt hit the ball, you just have to adjust the racket angle).
It really looks like flat hits on underspin ball, the ball is going down right after the ball contact. With the same technique it will be impossible to loop this ball with a contact point under the net.

Pnachtwey you should try the same thing but just waiting for the ball to be under the net and try to loop it back by giving it an arc, with this level of underspin (150+rev/s) just to understand what we are saying here first. Then for improvement, a good thing will be to do exactly the same exercice as we see on the second video with his play mate..........but doing it seriously, meaning huge backspin on the serve, if possible huge backspin + short serve (for more advanced players, requires far more touch than huge backspin + long serve) and then a 3rd ball FH topspin.

Here I don't see the point, the serve is long without spin, the return hardly has any backspin and then a FH topsin that is not even meant to be a winner.......there much better usage of precious training time to be done !!!!

The serves have to be REAL serves, meaning that you concentrate on it to get maxium backspin (long serve if you cannot achieve short serve with huge backspin), this way you also benefit of this training to get also better serves. The training partner takes the ball right after the bounce to input huge backspin (the more backspin you put into your serve, the more backspin yopur partner will be able to input also, while keeping the ball low) into a low a long ball into your FH and then you execute an opening FH loop or killing 3rd ball attack. Repeat it hundreds of time.

This will be truly productive.

And, one more thing, there is no meaning executing 3rd ball attack drills if you don't have, at least, a huge backspin long serve, really, there is no meaning in it.
Table tennis is a constructive sport, its not like I can begin to train someone to do killing 3rd ball attacks if this guy doesn't have the serve skills to benefit from this traing. You won't be able to do 3rd ball FH attacks if your serves are so bad that it is easy to attack your serve.
Most of time, the coach instruction, during those type of exercices, is to attack right away if the serve is long for example....

Also, 9mm balsa core, please don't tell me there is also carbon in it, like a Joola Kool or Yinhe T11, what you are lacking the more right now is touch, not even speaking about technique or anything else, it is to FEEL the ball, to feel when you are giving spin (or not), to feel when your contact is good (or not), to FEEL. This is far more important at your level than the astronomical power of a 9mm balsa core. Get a 5 ply 6mm tick allwood with a lot of flex and if possible a ton of feedbacks (vibrations, sound), something like Stiga Offensive Classic.

Pnachtwey, you are right about the fact that when you topspin a backspin ball, the ball will always rotate (in the referential of the floor), but Carl is not an engineer and what he describes can be wrong if taken litteraly but it is so true when taken from a lambda tt player with a very good feeling.

Carl is describing his feeling, he has the feeling that when he executes a very good stroke, he can "grab" the ball. As I explained, here is just the feeling of being able to deform the rubber, maximizing dwell time and spin, the feeling you get when you have good arm/wirst accelaration. He wanted to explain that there is much more than your simple way to see physics in table tennis and he's done it based on his feeling (and I'm sure he has a pretty good one, because is table tennis "intuition" based on his feeling actually matches very often the physics, even if it's not 100% accurate, but dude......Carl is not a physics nerd and an engineer like I am, or you are, he tries to describe his FEEL with mere words, thats all).

Certainly the same feeling Schlager gets on all his serves, the amazing spin is not created by raw bat speed, it is creating by a combination of very big but very short acceleration (not long enough to reach very high bat speed, as I said I think anyone here can reach higher bat speed on a pendelum serve than Schlager on most of his serves, but nobody here will come close to his level of spin). This way, Schlager is able to maximize dwell time and to deform his rubber far more than anyone of use.

This feeling, to deform the rubber much more than a usual stroke would, even on serves, has been described many time with his own words by Carl.........for example Der_Echte will call it by the famous expression "Bang Impact", a compination of "Hand pressure mastery" and huge acceleration. Werner Schlager, the Elite, is able to get this "bang impacts" even on serves.

But I trully think you lack feeling, with more feeling you will understand far better what Carl is saying, feel is the alpha of table tennis, the omega is the touch and I think it is very very difficult to get a good technique without good touch and feeling.

To me, it looks like you are wanting to overcome your lack of feeling and touch by the usage of low grade physics, and judging from the video it doesn't look like this is a good trade for your improvement, for example you think that you are doing topspins against the robot backspin, it's not true, there is no spin in your ball, you can't feel it but you can at least SEE it, your balls have no spin, just watch the video.

See this video of Freitas touch and feel :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=047lRBrNQ2c

See what he is doing at 1:15 "the backspin catcher". A guy like Carl will instantly understand what Freitas is doing and the level of touch behind it, based on his own feeling. And you won't understand this based on low grade physics applicated to table tennis, because like many scientist would do and has you said, you will consider the dwell time as few milliseconds and thuus........somehow a constant parameter. You even wanted to "expose" the "myth" of long/shord dwell time....etc....but man, a guy like Carl will instantly understand what Freitas is doing the "backspin catcher", indeed he is minimizing dwell time as much as possible, so much that the ball is keeping its backspin after multiple contacts with the rubber, try to guess what will happen with a longer dwell time, try to do it yourself and try to FEEL the ball, the dwell time...etc..., there is now way to understand it with low grade physics once again, even introducing a friction coeficient....etc...won't help you here.

Now I understand why you wanted to "expose" the "long/short dwell time myth" on your famous topic, I trully think that you lack touch and FEEL, and into your hand there is no short or long dwell time blade/rubbers/whatever and you trully believe(d ?) it was a myth. But it's not a myth, you just can't feel it.

Sorry. I really couldn't resist. I figured, if we want to confuse Archie and add to the list of things he's interested in finding out how to improve on and get better at, then these posts will send his imagination running totally wild in a way that is completely worthwhile.

NextLevel
05-03-2016, 05:23 AM
Keep that rabbit running on the treadmill...

Archosaurus
05-03-2016, 02:41 PM
@NextLevel

"Under-promise and over-deliver" is great. Definite +1 for that.

@SilentRain

I read your post, and I followed it today.

I've narrowed my focus down. My only goal is to get more spin with the same normal speed I play shots at, placing it just simply down the line from the middle.. Nothing technical. I'm not getting a lot of spin, but it's a good start.

That, along with @UpSideDownCarl's advice of a higher volume training method, I've started doing self hitting off the table with 3 balls in my left hand, dropping the next one as soon as I recover from my shot. Carrying a huge box of balls with me is not practical, but I could sneak a few more balls into my racket case, probably.

I managed to get a few sequences where I brushed 3 balls in a row with pretty acceptable consistency, but it's not quite there yet. I'm starting to develop a form now, and it's making things more consistent.

I took a short video just before I left, and of course the shots were absolute failures as well, but I'm seeing a small problem with my follow through. My stroke is a lot less flat, though, because I've been trying to stick to the "swing in same plane as blade angle" guideline. It'll probably fall into place once I get a bit better at this.

I think the best change I've done is the higher volume training. I don't have as much time to think between shots, but I do have a far better memory of what I just did. So +1 to Carl definitely.

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2016, 04:34 PM
Archie, a small bag with 20 balls in it will be half the weight of your racket and not much bigger. You can carry 20 balls with you.

You can also find a little container that fits 20 balls to stash somewhere in that game room.

At a club I used to play at in NYC's Chinatown, there was a little old lady with a bucket of balls. Everyone called her "the chicken lady" because her bucket was a cardboard Kentucky Fried Chicken container shaped like a bucket. You can figure something out that will work, that you can leave and hide at the table and easily replace if it goes missing. You even could shape the bag into a bucket and just use that.

Truthfully, if you used 70-80 balls, it would be better. But 20 balls is easy to carry and gives you at least 20 hits before you have to pick up.

I've got little hands and I can put my hand in a bucket and come out with 5 each time. That guy who feeds multiball to ZJK looks like he gets 15-20 with each grab. And I am not sure his hands are much bigger than mine. 4 rounds of 5 before you ha e to pick up will be much more worthwhile.

Try it one time. See if you can sort out why I am repeating this yet again.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel
05-03-2016, 04:37 PM
Archie, don't let Carl break your back. He doesn't remember what it was like to pick up balls without a ball picking machine.

Archosaurus
05-03-2016, 05:27 PM
NL, hahaha, true.

There's actually a ton of places where balls can get stuck and go out of view in my play area, so it's a bit of a pain, but I think I will still find some kind of practical way to transport a dozen balls or so with me. It's mostly a question of space in my bag, and I'm not inclined to carrying a spare bag with me.

You know, now when I think about it, I have a spare racket case. I could probably throw at least 10 in there. The rackets in it are actually unused premades and sealed up with a plastic wrap, so it'll not be a problem to take them out: they're not gonna degrade. So I might just use that as a ball "bucket".

9906

Better than expected.

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2016, 06:24 PM
Archie, don't let Carl break your back. He doesn't remember what it was like to pick up balls without a ball picking machine.

Hahahahaha. Nice. Even though it's not true.

When Ludovic was 10 he said to me: "I've never seen anyone your age do so much to pick up ball that are stuck behind things." By "my age" he meant old and grumpy. [emoji2]

That was at NYTTF which closed down a few years ago. But, at Spin, I pick up balls all the time and not always with a pickup.


9906

Better than expected.

That will work well. If you try it once and you don't feel the extra value of that amount in the case, then do what you choose. But I have a feeling you will be able to understand why that amount is worth using.

ttmonster
05-03-2016, 06:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yf_ETGdjnQ

UpSideDownCarl
05-03-2016, 06:57 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yf_ETGdjnQ

Where can I order mine.

ttmonster
05-03-2016, 07:42 PM
Where can I order mine.

you can contact Mr. Pee Wee ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVdqwD_bcPs