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I have been working with a coach here and there (not a professional coach, but a guy who reached 2100 and works directly with Samson Dubina on many occasions) and have been making great improvements in my serves, receives, and third ball attacks. My coach's serves still give me trouble, but I haven't had issues aggressively returning the serves of anyone within 300 points of my rating (1170). Attacking underspin is something I'm seeing >85% success with as well, so my 3rd ball game is progressing nicely. My biggest problem at the moment is playing against anyone 1200+ that consistently can counter my 3rd ball attacks. I used to drop back and lob against an attacking opponent, which was fine until I started playing against consistent attackers. Now, I'm trying to stay more at the table or 2-4 feet back and block/counterattack. I do OK with blocking but am having issues making my blocks more dangerous. So the question - should I work more on blocking to improve consistency, or do I risk taking a step backward and try to counterattack? Any hints for working toward either goal are appreciated as well. Thanks!
 
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I have been working with a coach here and there (not a professional coach, but a guy who reached 2100 and works directly with Samson Dubina on many occasions) and have been making great improvements in my serves, receives, and third ball attacks. My coach's serves still give me trouble, but I haven't had issues aggressively returning the serves of anyone within 300 points of my rating (1170). Attacking underspin is something I'm seeing >85% success with as well, so my 3rd ball game is progressing nicely. My biggest problem at the moment is playing against anyone 1200+ that consistently can counter my 3rd ball attacks. I used to drop back and lob against an attacking opponent, which was fine until I started playing against consistent attackers. Now, I'm trying to stay more at the table or 2-4 feet back and block/counterattack. I do OK with blocking but am having issues making my blocks more dangerous. So the question - should I work more on blocking to improve consistency, or do I risk taking a step backward and try to counterattack? Any hints for working toward either goal are appreciated as well. Thanks!

if the player is able to counter your third ball so easily, maybe you don't have very much power (speed/spin) as you should for a third ball attacker. Part of this could be for a few different reasons. One being, maybe your serves aren't very spinny so they can't give you much spin back. a dead ball is harder to generate good amount of power for your third ball.

at 1200, they really shouldn't be able to get ANY 3rd ball attack back if it's placed decently. If I'm attacking, I'm more of a 5th ball attacker in a way that I flip the third ball and hit a "winner" (stronger loop, loop-kill, smash) depending on how they dealt with my third ball flip. But against a 1200 player just placing the third ball flip on the table decently has done enough to already win the point against that level of a player.
 
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I think I messed up some terminology here - my TRUE third ball attacks tend not to come back until I'm playing someone 1600+ (maybe 1500 against defenders). I'm talking more about instances where I play a controlled topspin to initiate offense, whether it's a flip or a loop. That's when good attackers tend to start their attacks. My placement is usually decent enough to keep them from really being aggressive but I have a hard time even against half-decent loops. That's what I'm trying to improve on.
 
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Also, what you said about serving is definitely correct. I can get great spin on my serves, but getting great spin consistently is something I struggle with and have started really working on.

Having played with people with different kinds of ratings, I'd say most players' serves won't get really spinny until they're 1800+

Also, I find that plenty of people who are around 1000-1400 don't really brush the ball on pushing and the ball usually ended up pretty dead
 
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Learning to generate more spin and to loop and counterloop more consistently is always worthwhile.

There is no one approach to this. And any number of approaches can be useful. What does the guy who trains you think will help you get better fastest? He probably knows more about your game than most people.

But, having him train with you to get you to train deeper and deeper into the rallies might be valuable.


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Up until the last two weeks the priorities were serve return and spin on loops. Now that they've come up my weakness is against attacks and it's rooted in footwork mostly. If I don't anticipate almost perfectly I have no chance to get to the ball in time to put a good stroke on it. Even when I do get to the ball in time, my timing is an issue. So I guess that sort of answers my own question :p
 
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Usually, when someone knows how to formulate this kind of question, they have a decent idea of good answers for to address the problem.

One thing you could do is get your coach to start with serve and receive and make you work deeper into the rally after each opening.

Another thing is to get a training partner where you can work on long distance looping, where you are both at mid-distance looping to each other and trying to keep the rally going. When you can keep those rallies going then you can start randomizing them and making them harder to keep going but you are still trying to keep them going.

And then, doing footwork drills with the coach where you have to keep ball after ball in play as he moves you around or from multiball.


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I player at OP's USA level has MANY things they really need to improve upon before they become a solid player. Heck, Der_Echte is considered a bad-azz and even at his USA level, he still has a LOT to work on.

Many of us think in terms of powerful opening loops, but it takes a lot just to get that chance and a better player knows how to minimize those chances or make them low percentage chances.

So... the most under-rated things in the game are the MIDDLE stuff. TOUCH... on blocks, on hits, on serves, on pushes... SEEING the ball and getting into position. Staying crouched and balanced. Finishing on balance and getting back in crouch.

These kind of things count a lot and many U2000 players struggle with them.

like Carl said, there is NOT just ONE thing any of can say and a coach who is there knows more.

I can certainly say that as one sees the ball better and learns how to stay balanced and in position, the QUALITY of ones shots gets better. There is so much the OP needs to improve upon and what he really needs is a strategic plan to get there. Tactics are one thing, but strategic goals are things like "Improving footwork" "Improving balance after an opener" "Stepping around after a push". Coach is in position to assess this and provide a plan over time.

None of this stuff fixes itself overnight. Even the stuff improved upon in practice takes MONTHS to translate into points in a match. SOME stuff improves just through awareness, but most stuff doesn't and it is always a tough road.

That is one huge reason why I like TT. You can fight and always have stuff to improve.
 
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I have TT club practice tomorrow and my plan is to work through footwork first and then try some longer distance looping against topspin to improve my spin generation. I do fine against underspin and actually generate good spin - not great but still heavy enough to be effective. I try to sit down every week and look at my game much like D_E is saying I should and counterattacking is my biggest weakness at the moment. My coach says my rating is closer to 1400/1500 than 1200, and that my counterattacking is holding me back from reaching 1600+. I'll try to get some video tomorrow and post it. Thanks for all the help so far, it's been humbling and given me a lot to think about!
 
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Hey Kleifheit, Carl and NL will confirm... I am a total WUSS when it comes to counter attacking... and I play near 2000 level... so don't sweat it. I autopilot block.. and it works for me more than countering right now, although I DO sometimes counter. (Mostly on BH wing)

There are a TON of things making you the level you are. Sure, being able to counter half strong and land it more than not would likely get you to the level coach says, I wont doubt it. he sees you often and I have never seen you play in my life.

SO MANY ways to go about improving from your level it is insane. Still, a good coach will give you a proposed PATH to "Get There" to each level and one way can be just as right as another way. keep a good bullcrap filter about you and fight on man !
 
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I have TT club practice tomorrow and my plan is to work through footwork first and then try some longer distance looping against topspin to improve my spin generation. I do fine against underspin and actually generate good spin - not great but still heavy enough to be effective. I try to sit down every week and look at my game much like D_E is saying I should and counterattacking is my biggest weakness at the moment. My coach says my rating is closer to 1400/1500 than 1200, and that my counterattacking is holding me back from reaching 1600+. I'll try to get some video tomorrow and post it. Thanks for all the help so far, it's been humbling and given me a lot to think about!

Forget about counter-topspin if you are below 2000. Even players around 2000-2200 at best would have 2-3 topspin to topspin exchange in a rare rally where they get to do that. Focus instead in getting better feeling in directing a block, it's your best chance to counter-attack an aggressive player.
 
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So long as your block or retrieve or lob or chop or cut or dead chop or whatever you return where is quality enough, that will get you through. So many ways to be effective it is NOT a requirement to be an all-out attacking monster like Der_Echte wants to be (on the first chance, but then wuss out) Just develop many ways to handle things and stay on balance on time in zone and try stuf out. Discover. Your. game.
 
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Post #12 by Laistrogian has no like button so I manually LIKE hiz post here.

Yes, even at my level, I average only 2, that is spelled T-W-O loop to loop or counter drive like mad rallies a game. That is it. SO MANY MORE shots count for so much more at my level. MIDDLE game is so under-rated. Train for consistency and quality and take your chances in battle. Victory to the brave and skilled and cautious.
 
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I have been working with a coach here and there (not a professional coach, but a guy who reached 2100 and works directly with Samson Dubina on many occasions) and have been making great improvements in my serves, receives, and third ball attacks. My coach's serves still give me trouble, but I haven't had issues aggressively returning the serves of anyone within 300 points of my rating (1170). Attacking underspin is something I'm seeing >85% success with as well, so my 3rd ball game is progressing nicely. My biggest problem at the moment is playing against anyone 1200+ that consistently can counter my 3rd ball attacks. I used to drop back and lob against an attacking opponent, which was fine until I started playing against consistent attackers. Now, I'm trying to stay more at the table or 2-4 feet back and block/counterattack. I do OK with blocking but am having issues making my blocks more dangerous. So the question - should I work more on blocking to improve consistency, or do I risk taking a step backward and try to counterattack? Any hints for working toward either goal are appreciated as well. Thanks!

Just to add my two cents … and maybe go into the issue more technically than others have. So, the issue is that you powerloop (i.e. loop backspin) then your opponent attacks, and then you have trouble dealing with this shot?
- Firstly, you’ve got to make your powerloop more difficult to attack. That involves putting greater spin on it, making it lower and faster, and placing it where your opponent is weaker – backhand, body, forehand - i.e. where he is more likely to block rather than counterloop. It is different from player to player of course. You should look into your powerloop technique. If it’s too high, try do to a more horizontal than vertical movement towards the ball. If it’s not spinny enough, brush the ball more than hitting it. At you’re level, opponents shouldn’t be able to counterloop spinny powerloops so easily.
- Secondly, I would look into how you’re approaching the fourth ball. Assuming you powerlooped and introduced topspin into the rally, you need to approach the ball far differently than your powerloop. It’s a common error to play a powerlooping-type shot again, meaning your shot is too vertical, so the ball goes off the table. Make sure you’re contacting the ball horizontally – down and forward – and contacting close to the top of the ball rather than the side of the ball as you would with a powerloop.
- Thirdly, I’ve been told and read from various sources about the importance of stepping back, even slightly, after your powerloop. Factor this into your training, as if it’s a crucial component of the shot. You need to step back to give yourself time to block or counterloop effectively with a backswing if possible. If your powerloop is effective, your opponent should have blocked – and if you can manage to move into a position where this block goes into your looping ‘powerzone’ this should lead to a strong attack. It’s this shot that gives the server the advantage over the receiver. This assumes an effective backspin serve that is pushed long, and then an effective powerloop that is blocked quite passively – but if everything goes to plan (and you’d be surprised how often this pattern happens at lower levels) – this is your power shot and you should take advantage of it!
 
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Forget about counter-topspin if you are below 2000. Even players around 2000-2200 at best would have 2-3 topspin to topspin exchange in a rare rally where they get to do that. Focus instead in getting better feeling in directing a block, it's your best chance to counter-attack an aggressive player.

This kind of advice is a mistake. If the OP has a good loop vs backspin or block (and most players at 1200 do not, but this is a coach's choice), he should learn to countertopspin immediately. MY view is based on the idea that if you have the proper stroke form, your strokes will improve as your level improves, but that if you do not have the right instincts, it will take forever to build them. Just learn all the strokes that your coach thinks you require to play the way you want to play long term. People look at countertopspin as something special, but kids do it all the time if their coaches show them as they do not think it is something special. I know a 900 rated adult who countertopspins with me all the time. Obviously other parts of his game are lagging, but that is the point.
 
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This kind of advice is a mistake. If the OP has a good loop vs backspin or block (and most players at 1200 do not, but this is a coach's choice), he should learn to countertopspin immediately. MY view is based on the idea that if you have the proper stroke form, your strokes will improve as your level improves, but that if you do not have the right instincts, it will take forever to build them. Just learn all the strokes that your coach thinks you require to play the way you want to play long term. People look at countertopspin as something special, but kids do it all the time if their coaches show them as they do not think it is something special. I know a 900 rated adult who countertopspins with me all the time. Obviously other parts of his game are lagging, but that is the point.

I agree. It's not big deal to counterloop - and shouldn't be something to be scared about. But there is a difference between looping a block (relatively easy) and counterlooping a loop and counterlooping a powerloop! All three shots have topspin but different degrees of it - and counterlooping a powerloop is the most difficult requiring a higher technical level. If it's not a very spinny loop though, one shouldn't be scared to counterloop.
 
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I agree. It's not big deal to counterloop - and shouldn't be something to be scared about. But there is a difference between looping a block (relatively easy) and counterlooping a loop and counterlooping a powerloop! All three shots have topspin but different degrees of it - and counterlooping a powerloop is the most difficult requiring a higher technical level. If it's not a very spinny loop though, one shouldn't be scared to counterloop.

Some day, I will film my practice with the 900 player and get people to comment. Now we can debate whether he really is 900 but he is not 1500. He does have the hand speed of a 2000+ player. The key thing is hand speed. If the hand speed/acceleration on your stroke is really good, you can learn and practice anything. Whether it should be your dominant focus should be more about what is required to get you to the next level, but I still believe in showing people everything and letting their comfort with risk determine what they actually decide to do in matches. I have been counterlooping seriously for a little over a year now and I wish I had started earlier as it would have taken my game in a different direction.

The main reason why people don't try these things is that they focus too much on putting the ball on the table rather than on building out proper technique. But the main reason people miss putting the ball on the table is because they either misread the spin (and hence the contact point) or they lack the hand speed to spin the ball sufficiently to put the ball on the table. But these are all things that will improve as long as someone is patient and willing to accept the growing pains. As I am getting better, I am learning that if you have the right timing and the right equipment, you can loop just about anything.
 
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