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D_Nizzle
04-25-2016, 08:35 AM
In an effort to further improve my serves I’m thinking a lot about stomping (or stamping if you like) recently … and would like your learned opinions.
I’m not asking whether it’s illegal (it isn’t) or fair (meh – life’s not fair!) – I’m mainly interested in how it can help one win points.
It’s common knowledge that stomping can be useful for combination bat players as a way to hide the sound created by one rubber or the other, therefore denying the opponent an auditory clue as to which rubber was being used. That’s one use.
But has anyone experimented with the timing of the stomp during serve? When I serve, and I guess this is the case for most people, I stomp exactly when the ball contacts the rubber. So the sound of the stomp happens at the exact same moment as ball contact. BUT has anyone tried stomping before or after contact? Much of our coordination is auditory – hearing the ball contact the racket or hit the table helps us coordinate our timing and execute shots – but by stomping before or after contact we’re introducing a sound from nowhere that could influence the opponent to mistime their shot – especially if it’s used along with other serve where we stomp at contact (or even don’t stomp at all). You could really mess around with people’s heads! Or that’s the theory. Has anyone tried this? The ‘after stomp’ seems easier to do in practice – though I haven’t done this in a game or seen its effectiveness … if any. Obviously you’d have to be very careful to make the gap very marginal between the stomp and the serve, as your opponent or the referee may deem your behaviour illegal … but if not I think it might be a good ploy.
The other thing I’m thinking about is the role of stomping with weight transfer during the serve. Obviously stomping helps us consciously transfer weight from the back to the front foot. But the act of stomping is at the end of the weight transfer – whereas we should be trying to contact the ball when the weight transfer is in motion – when it’s at its fastest point – therefore allowing us to impart more spin/speed. So, thinking about this – would it be technically better to stomp after contact? So, you’d be contacting the ball during weight transfer and then stomping when weight transfer has finished. Make sense?
And ideas would be appreciated …

laistrogian
04-25-2016, 09:11 AM
Is stomping on purpose a thing in the first place? I stomp on some of my serves just based on reflex and I know some others who stomp really loud and some who doesn't although I don't know if they do it on purpose or not

IMO, if the stomping isn't a natural part of your serve and meant to be used as a distraction, it's just an unsportsmanship behavior and you shouldn't do it. Winning is important but how you win is probably even more so

D_Nizzle
04-25-2016, 09:34 AM
I think some people do it on purpose and others don't. Doing it on purpose can be helpful in forcing you to put weight transfer into your serve.
I kinda of didn't want to get into a discussion about whether it's fair or not - the morality of it. But get your point. The thing is - where is the divide between distraction and gameplay? Using a pendulum serve to hide backspin/topspin is deemed fine - as is twiddling between longpips/anti and inverted. So why isn't stomping OK? Anyway ... like I said .. I'm not into the morals. One reason I like tt so much is that allows you to use deception so much - kinda like magic! ... so I was thinking of doing the same with stomping ... . Then, again, I'm not one to win at all costs either ... I'm a nice guy (when I'm not sleep-deprived or drunk ... which is the case every day) ... so ... who knows.

kukamonga
04-25-2016, 09:54 AM
you might as well just spray pepper spray in the opponents face, that would be more effective for winning the point.

or just sweep the leg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kr24G8jQpM

D_Nizzle
04-25-2016, 10:25 AM
Let he who has not boosted cast the first stone ...

SilentRain
04-25-2016, 12:28 PM
When i used to do a short toss pendulum serve, I stomped like a MOFO. But it was not to hide the serve but weight transfer instead. That said, my training partner likes to stomp just before the contact of the ball and i find it quite effective for disturbing auditory responses if you're not used to it as most people stomp at the point of contact. That said, the surprise quickly diminishes so yeah it works but not that much.

Ardenhouse165
04-25-2016, 12:58 PM
Can't help thinking that the speed of light is so much faster than the speed of sound that this would really not make any difference to a player watching the ball hit the servers bat. All it does is make one think what an irritating fellow your opponent is, and how much more you actually want to beat him.

SilentRain
04-25-2016, 01:11 PM
Can't help thinking that the speed of light is so much faster than the speed of sound that this would really not make any difference to a player watching the ball hit the servers bat. All it does is make one think what an irritating fellow your opponent is, and how much more you actually want to beat him.

See the link and watch 1 minute onwards


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvXhx9SmOB8

TLDR
Speed of light is faster than speed of sound but our brain process sound faster than light. Sound is quite crucial if your opponent is very good at deceptive serve.
That said, i agree it is kinda annoying and I dont do it anymore since moving on to a high toss pendulum serve. I guess it depends on how hard you stomp. Some people stomp not so loudly which i can tolerate but others.....

kukamonga
04-25-2016, 01:36 PM
also maybe it's just me but my feet hurt when I stomp.
maybe I'm just a delicate sensitive person....

also sometimes it hurts me even when others stomp lol.

SilentRain
04-25-2016, 01:40 PM
also maybe it's just me but my feet hurt when I stomp.
maybe I'm just a delicate sensitive person....

also sometimes it hurts me even when others stomp lol.

Its not just you but the feet really will get sore after a while

kukamonga
04-25-2016, 01:42 PM
Its not just you but the feet really will get sore after a while

this is real, sometimes I watch someone stomping really hard and I get this chill, like when you are watching someone hurt themselves and it hurts a bit....

I don't remember who it was who told me that doing this, specially with the heel bone is bad for your vertebral back.
Actually I think he said it for like jumping and landing in your heel bone.
But well stomping is a tiny jump.
There's a reason why when people and animals jump they land in the metatarsals zone....

ajtatosmano2
04-25-2016, 05:16 PM
Pros stomp because the stomp hides the sound of the contact (I've heard that...not sure).
Stomping helps to move to ready position faster after the serve (just like step back before the serve) and get ready mentally (have you seen Kenji Matsudaira and Morizono Masataka?).
Some slow mo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dolQO-M8LJE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QX_Il-gEBdQ

Der_Echte
04-25-2016, 06:46 PM
As an umpire, I am inclined to draw out the yellow card pretty quick when a player does obvious things to disturb the opponent. Stomping the daylights outta the floor would fall under this. Yet, in USA, when you take the umpire exam to be certified as a Club Umpire, an explanation in one of the questions specifically addresses stomping and states that it is allowed. It would require judgment on what degree of loudness and potential "Disruption" constitutes "Allowed" stomping.

As a Club Umpire, if I am umpiring a match, I would address this to both players before the match so they know where I stand. Stomping is allowed in a serve. Stomping so hard that the table, and the tail end of every spectator 25 meters away shakes like an earthquake is an intentional obvious disruption. Another thing to consider is if both parties state that they will tolerate stomping to the degree of a 155 MM Howitzer artillery shell impact and explosion... then in reality, there is no distraction to the other player, they both already stated this. If both players state such positions, and yet on serve, the stomping causes the table to move several centimeters, then calling a let and serving over would be proper. If this happens several times, then calling a let and addressing this to both players warning them that if the table moves noticeably after the stomp it will be a card.

Whenever you hold public question and answer sessions, you will be surprised at how off the wall extreme case never happen in a million years left field questions you will get. As the one leading the discussion, you have to have a good working knowledge of the rules and how to fairly and consistently apply them... plus a lot of patience with these questions

It comes down to knowing the official position, and being able to apply good judgment.

Archosaurus
04-25-2016, 07:05 PM
Jesus christ Echte, you've seen a player's stomp move the table several centimeters?

Do they squat elephants? :p

Der_Echte
04-25-2016, 07:17 PM
Jesus christ Echte, you've seen a player's stomp move the table several centimeters?

Do they squat elephants? :p

Not exactly ARCHO, they all eat Kimchee, but they can ALMOST drink as much beer as me when provoked and almost eat half as much Garlic, both cooked and raw, which a tiny fraction of that is enough garlic to send Count Dracula running to the hills in mortal fear for hiz life..

It really depends on the flooring below the table.

If the flooring is concrete solid with a carpet cover or the red cover... then you will cringe when you hear tendons, bones, and joints crack upon the stomping impact so loud the cracking sound is well loud enough to cover the sound of the serve impact.

If the flooring is plywood boards built atop a grid of 2x4 wood pieces, then you can imagine how much give the flooring has (it is great stuff to play on for your knees, this stuff has the most soft give of anything) then when I player stomps with authority, the impact reverberates even more than the "Elephants" in the "Jungle Book" Diseny cartoon movie when the Commander of the elephants blew a loud trumpet right into the ranks close range of all their ears.

So there you have it, STOMP at Ur own risk.

Archosaurus
04-25-2016, 07:22 PM
I tried stomping a few times. I'm not sure if my opponents were even reading my spin in the first place, and I injured a few children in the nearby elementary school, so I stopped. :rolleyes:

Der_Echte
04-25-2016, 07:23 PM
Archos, you would like the re-write of the first two sentences.

chuckjordan2
04-26-2016, 12:42 AM
If stomping by the server is fair game, then me waving my hands (as the receiver) in a distracting manner is fair too. True/false?

Der-echte, what would your ruling be then?

BTW, stomping doesn't phase me. I can tune it out.

Shiro
04-26-2016, 03:17 AM
Normally, i use stomping for two purposes. The first reason is one of the most obvious, to hide the sound of contact. Sometimes you will do a really nice brushing noise feeling, or have a solid contact for a nice fast long serve. The second reason i use it is to sometimes intimidate the person i am playing against.

D_Nizzle
04-26-2016, 07:54 AM
Interesting to read all the posts, and nice to hear the umpire’s point of view too from Der Echte. Since I wrote the post, I’ve practised my stomps a bit and now can do a simple backspin serve in which I stomp on contact or after contact with the same action. Interestingly, when I stomp after contact I find I’m getting more spin, I think because I’m using my waist rotation or weight transfer more effectively. And when I stomp, I’m not talking about a mini earthquake. I just want to produce an audible noise - what I’m trying to do is to get the opponent to mistime their return rather than intimidate them – though I can see how that can work too. I know this borders on unsportsmanship – and it would be a big step for me to do this in a game. For now, I think it’s worth experimenting with in practise – and I’ll try get my head around the moral bits later!

UpSideDownCarl
04-26-2016, 08:49 AM
If stomping by the server is fair game, then me waving my hands (as the receiver) in a distracting manner is fair too. True/false?

Der-echte, what would your ruling be then?

BTW, stomping doesn't phase me. I can tune it out.

With stomping during the serve, the sound happens on your contact. With waiving your hands during the other person's receiving of the ball, that happens when they are going to contact. And just like making sound or vocalizing while the other person is setting up for the ball or in process of hitting it, waiving your hands could be interpreted as an attempt to distract the opponent. I have seen a player who does wave his hands while the other person is hitting. I have also seen the same person stomp while the other person is hitting. And I have seen him get called for it and get points deducted for it.

But I have also seen him get away with it.

Kaizoku
04-26-2016, 11:12 AM
Let he who has not boosted cast the first stone ...

Who do I throw it at?

UpSideDownCarl
04-26-2016, 05:02 PM
Not sure if how I said it is clear. But purposely stomping while the other person is going to hit, I believe that IS against the rules. And waiving your hands to try and purposely distract the opponent while he is hitting, I think that would also be against the rules.

It might be a judgement call for the umpire, but I believe you are not allowed to purposely create a distraction while the other person is in the process of playing the ball.

So stomping your foot while you are serving is an entirely different issue than creating a distraction while someone else is about to play the ball.

One time I played a match where this guy kept talking under his breath to purposely distract me while I was serving. He was saying stuff like, "come on, miss," or "no, no, don't do that one." After a few I looked at him and asked if he had a problem. He said he didn't know what I was talking about. I told him he knew exactly what I was talking about and that if he wanted to win by cheating, what was the point of playing a match in the first place. He still denied it. So I just started doing it to him. After he apologized. But that is the kind of thing only a jerk would try to pull. Same thing for stomping feet while the other person is hitting or waiving your hands while the other person is hitting.

It is totally different than stomping while you serve as part of the motion. That being said, I don't stomp when I serve.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Anders
04-26-2016, 05:15 PM
The stomping on service should be ok, as long as it seems natural.. The unnatural moaning is worse. I tend to stop and ask if my moaning opponent is hurt or in pain, then they tend to stop the moaning ;)

NextLevel
04-26-2016, 06:22 PM
Even stomping while hitting the ball is annoying, especially when it is an unnatural stomp. On serves, the rules allow it. After that, it is umpire judgement. There is a guy who I play at tournaments who stomps when hitting the ball and he knows I will call him out on it so to his credit, he did not do it during our last match.

IMO, that Primorac, Ovtcharov and Assar can get away with what they do is annoying. I also hate it when a silent opponent suddenly moans or grunts while hitting the ball.

Archosaurus
04-26-2016, 07:55 PM
Doing anything distracting during an opponent's stroke is definitely against the rules. In the event of a loud noise, a let can even be called.

What constitutes distraction or a loud noise isn't exactly specified to the detail.

iammaru
04-26-2016, 07:58 PM
hi there, I had the exact same thought as the OP but I've never tried it, actually never had time to practice it. It's so unnatural for me, so it would take a lot of time to practice the stomp before contact. I do think it would mess up the timing of the opponent more or less. It's not against the rules, isn't it? It's a legal (and acceptable) trick IMO.

That said, I played a guy who stomped very hard before almost every shots and it was really annoying. He did that on purpose, it definitely messed up my timing and concentration.

D_Nizzle
04-26-2016, 10:12 PM
Nice to see someone had the same idea iamarru! I think there is something in it, but the legality is vague. On the subject of stomping in play, check out Amelie Solja - she's Petrisa's sister - though she plays for Austria rather than Germany.

https://youtu.be/yXBAEu2DK3g
She plays with anti-spin and her main shot is a side swipe which goes with a massive stomp. It's even annoying to watch. So the opponent has to deal with anti-spin and continual stomping. It's what nightmares are made of!


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Shuki
04-27-2016, 05:20 AM
I'm a stomper, I've hurt my leg a few times by stomping too hard, and then when I'm not able to stomp because of the pain it makes service extremely uncomfortable.

kukamonga
04-27-2016, 11:23 AM
maybe people should stop worrying about rules so much and apply the old rule of

don't do unto others what you don't want others to do unto you

D_Nizzle
04-27-2016, 12:07 PM
maybe people should stop worrying about rules so much and apply the old rule of

don't do unto others what you don't want others to do unto you

Hah – this thread is getting very Biblical!