PDA

View Full Version : very interesting Float serve



bobpuls
05-02-2016, 05:40 PM
do anyone now this serve ...it is looking pretty intersting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnrhDp4mOmQ

SilentRain
05-02-2016, 05:58 PM
All of my float serves happen when i messed up and miss my backspin serve. I don't advocate using it too much as a decent player who is fairly competent at reading spin will either flick it or touch it in short. Players who play close to the table and have good short game will eat this serve for breakfast unless it is very very well deceptive and well placed (such as short and low). Something that is not easy to do. It is good however to mix in a few every once a while to throw your opponent off.

NextLevel
05-02-2016, 06:13 PM
All of my float serves happen when i messed up and miss my backspin serve. I don't advocate using it too much as a decent player who is fairly competent at reading spin will either flick it or touch it in short. Players who play close to the table and have good short game will eat this serve for breakfast unless it is very very well deceptive and well placed (such as short and low). Something that is not easy to do. It is good however to mix in a few every once a while to throw your opponent off.

Nah, you are too pessimistic about float serves. I probably serve more float/light backspin than anything else because people CANNOT eat it for breakfast once it is low enough and it is hard to put enough spin on the ball to prevent me from coming behind it. Putting it short requires an experienced hand and usually leads to easy flicks. Even if high, an experienced hand is required to contact and compensate for the lack of spin. Long float serves disguised as backspin or topspin can get free points at the lower levels as well. Too many people know what to do with backspin and topspin but get confused by real float.

ttmonster
05-02-2016, 06:27 PM
Completely agree with NextLevel here. Infact for moderately advanced players, float serve is a go to in most tough situations. read long time ago how waldner advocated the use of float serves at tense moments since opponents tend to get stiff hands and fail to keep it short enough. Anyways, another two cents on this, I find float serves with a slightly angled bat more difficult to handle than the one the kids is showing here. Its easier to detect if somebody uses a complete horizontal paddle to execute it. with a slightly angled paddle its becomes more difficult to read. If done properly , the slight side spin gives an arc to the ball which makes it seem as if its an underside or a side and then people either push it long for a loop drive, high for click or just wide off the side edge of the table.

thekleifheit13
05-02-2016, 06:54 PM
My coach, who is currently 1940, relies heavily on his float serves when he plays against people his own level for the exact reason NL and TTM are saying here. He murders me with it because I really don't have the strokes or fundamentals to do anything dangerous with it, so usually I try and drop it as short as possible and get back in hopes that I can block his coming attack. For that same reason, he hates receiving float serves. This is something I want to start working on as my FH attacks become more consistent and my BH attacks become more powerful. At my current level, though, my serves are more than spinny enough to be effective. Float serves at 1200 (at least in my area) are more like the average serve people see, and tend to be attacked pretty confidently.

ttmonster
05-02-2016, 07:01 PM
Try this when he serves to you ...

if its to your extreme backhand corner and short , side swipe it softly with an open paddle where the angle of the paddle is like 70-80 degrees to where you are standing meaning making a triangle with your body.

When its to your forehand short corner , instead of going directly against the ball try going around the side , like an angled push, much like the inside out serve that Feng Tianwei does ....

Let me know if it helps in receiving these serves.

Once you get comfortable using these you will be able to get a better feel of the ball and then start changing the motion where you could soft flick it , flick it with slight topspin , flick it flat , or even chop it right off the bounce ...

The window for a proper shot becomes smaller once somebody starts using good float serves against you that is why people also have problems when receiving serves executed with junk rubbers ... you need to maintain a soft forearm and a firm wrist by with soft pressure on the pinch where you are holding the blade ...

Again something that you will figure out the more you try against a real life serve ...


My coach, who is currently 1940, relies heavily on his float serves when he plays against people his own level for the exact reason NL and TTM are saying here. He murders me with it because I really don't have the strokes or fundamentals to do anything dangerous with it, so usually I try and drop it as short as possible and get back in hopes that I can block his coming attack. For that same reason, he hates receiving float serves. This is something I want to start working on as my FH attacks become more consistent and my BH attacks become more powerful. At my current level, though, my serves are more than spinny enough to be effective. Float serves at 1200 (at least in my area) are more like the average serve people see, and tend to be attacked pretty confidently.

SilentRain
05-02-2016, 07:17 PM
@TTmonster

This is agree with you. I merely said i dont think one should use it too much but rather in between serves.

@Nextlevel

Perhaps my wording was too harsh. A good float serve is indeed hard to attack effectively. The difficult part is making a good fast low and deceptive float serve. But I guess its because i value my 3rd ball attack so much that I misvalue the true worth of a float serve because it does not fit my style. I find that my opponents have more options in returning that serve in terms of placement relative to other serves. Now almost all serves can be returned almost anywhere on the table but RELATIVELY, I find float serves to have the most variation in terms of return and placement, making it hard to plan a proper 3rd ball attack with a decent probability of it happening. Also, my opponents are my club mates who are very capable in TT. Now I dont have any video yet as it is Examination period so all club activities are suspended but they are at a level where they have all the fundamentals down to clockwork (not me thou). We almost promoted ourselves to the Primeir division but lost the promotion match by score difference. If we won, we would be playing with other Universities like these


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luxiSo0ybD0

Most of my opponents and training mates are not as good as the players in the video but im using it as a benchmark or illustration if you will at the level of my opponents. 1 or 2 of them have fought and won against some of their players. So you can see my plight of why i dont like float serves as my opponents and partners are more than capable of giving a good return and denying me my 3rd ball.

I would like to stress that I am not as good as those players, but my training partners are pretty close. This is the basis of why i dont like using the float serve. Not that it is bad, it just is not my style and my opponents are capable and experience enough to do so.

[email protected]: So as you can see NL, my partners and opponents have the necessary skill,touch and experience to read and attack or at least give a good return for float serves. At best it is used as a one trick pony that usually ends poorly based on my experience with such players. But this is because of the opponents I face. If the opponents skill sets were different, then perhaps I would reassess my opinion about float serves. But because my opponents are like this, I still stand by my opinion that one should not use floats serves TOO OFTEN. At best, use it a few times in a match to get cheap points but do not make it a main serve

ttmonster
05-02-2016, 07:27 PM
Of course , its all relative. Once your exams are over , do post a video of yourself and we will have some fun :)

SilentRain
05-02-2016, 07:29 PM
@ TTmonster Sure thing! I actually want to play more but my mates want to study instead :(

SchemeSC
05-02-2016, 07:45 PM
If short dead balls are good enough for Chuang Chih Yuan, then they're good enough for me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VnWK9nn2Pc

NextLevel
05-02-2016, 07:51 PM
@TTmonster

This is agree with you. I merely said i dont think one should use it too much but rather in between serves.

@Nextlevel

Perhaps my wording was too harsh. A good float serve is indeed hard to attack effectively. The difficult part is making a good fast low and deceptive float serve. But I guess its because i value my 3rd ball attack so much that I misvalue the true worth of a float serve because it does not fit my style. I find that my opponents have more options in returning that serve in terms of placement relative to other serves. Now almost all serves can be returned almost anywhere on the table but RELATIVELY, I find float serves to have the most variation in terms of return and placement, making it hard to plan a proper 3rd ball attack with a decent probability of it happening. Also, my opponents are my club mates who are very capable in TT. Now I dont have any video yet as it is Examination period so all club activities are suspended but they are at a level where they have all the fundamentals down to clockwork (not me thou). We almost promoted ourselves to the Primeir division but lost the promotion match by score difference. If we won, we would be playing with other Universities like these


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luxiSo0ybD0

Most of my opponents and training mates are not as good as the players in the video but im using it as a benchmark or illustration if you will at the level of my opponents. 1 or 2 of them have fought and won against some of their players. So you can see my plight of why i dont like float serves as my opponents and partners are more than capable of giving a good return and denying me my 3rd ball.

I would like to stress that I am not as good as those players, but my training partners are pretty close. This is the basis of why i dont like using the float serve. Not that it is bad, it just is not my style and my opponents are capable and experience enough to do so.

[email protected]: So as you can see NL, my partners and opponents have the necessary skill,touch and experience to read and attack or at least give a good return for float serves. At best it is used as a one trick pony that usually ends poorly based on my experience with such players. But this is because of the opponents I face. If the opponents skill sets were different, then perhaps I would reassess my opinion about float serves. But because my opponents are like this, I still stand by my opinion that one should not use floats serves TOO OFTEN. At best, use it a few times in a match to get cheap points but do not make it a main serve

If opponents are still pushing your backspin serves long, by all means, continue to use them. I did that too. But any opponent good enough to deny you a third ball on a no-spin serve will deny you one even more easily on a backspin serve by pushing short.

For me, the reason why I hate backspin is that it is too easy to drop short - after I open off the first backspin ball, I get a steady diet of short pushes from good players for the rest of the match. At least, even when the good players push my no-spin heavy, they pop it up, it's just me and my footwork that can't get the smash flick in on time. The key thing for me with the no-spin serve is that even if the opponent digs into it, I know I can get in my opener. I just have to put it to a point on the table where the person's eye for the ball is no as good.

OF course, I am not sure what you mean by too often. The heavy backspin serve and the heavy no spin serve are like blood brothers. You use one to lay the carpet, then the other to open the trap door beneath it. And you just keep feeding people what they don't like. Good short push, more no-spin. Good fast flick, more backspin. Good everything? Well, better players are what they are.

SilentRain
05-02-2016, 08:15 PM
@ Next level

I did not say my opponents are pushing my backspin serve long. I am capable of consistently looping a half long backspin return on both wings and quite confident in my short backspin flicks which is why i even consider them as my 3rd ball attack. Its just that between a no spin serve and a backspin serve, less opponents will agressively attack it compared to a no spin serve. Therefore when i serve, I rather be the attacking player on a third ball even if its short/ half long than be the one being attacked on the second ball by a flick. The lesser of 2 evils. Also the options to deny a backspin 3rd ball attack is more limited compared to a no spin serve, meaning I have to cover less posibilities by my opponent compared to a no spin serve.

Maybe the reasons why we disagree on this serve is due to our own unique attributes and capabilities. I like touch and short play (flicks) and heavy backspin. You like to play a topspin game. Float lets you do your thing, it does not let me do my thing. So it would be pointless to continue arguing about who is right as there is no right answer. You put forward a good argument. Now for the float serve to be effective, we need to know OP's attributes to see if its useful. If OP plays similar to my stlye and can flick short backspin pushes, then maybe he wont like this serve. On the other hand, if he is like you, then he is going to have a field day.

UpSideDownCarl
05-02-2016, 08:39 PM
Didn't Ma Lin do a lot of spin/no spin (backspin) serves? I thought that was one of his main weapons varying amount of spin between heavy and no spin on backspin serves.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Archosaurus
05-02-2016, 08:41 PM
According to Larry Hodges, a no-spin serve that looks exactly like backspin is one of the highest level things you can have.

NextLevel
05-02-2016, 08:45 PM
@ Next level

I did not say my opponents are pushing my backspin serve long. I am capable of consistently looping a half long backspin return on both wings and quite confident in my short backspin flicks which is why i even consider them as my 3rd ball attack. Its just that between a no spin serve and a backspin serve, less opponents will agressively attack it compared to a no spin serve. Therefore when i serve, I rather be the attacking player on a third ball even if its short/ half long than be the one being attacked on the second ball by a flick. The lesser of 2 evils. Also the options to deny a backspin 3rd ball attack is more limited compared to a no spin serve, meaning I have to cover less posibilities by my opponent compared to a no spin serve.

Maybe the reasons why we disagree on this serve is due to our own unique attributes and capabilities. I like touch and short play (flicks) and heavy backspin. You like to play a topspin game. Float lets you do your thing, it does not let me do my thing. So it would be pointless to continue arguing about who is right as there is no right answer. You put forward a good argument. Now for the float serve to be effective, we need to know OP's attributes to see if its useful. If OP plays similar to my stlye and can flick short backspin pushes, then maybe he wont like this serve. On the other hand, if he is like you, then he is going to have a field day.
Ah, if you can consistently attack short heavy backspin over the table, that makes sense. In my experience, this strategy has risks, but it works if it can be done consistently.

I don't seriously distinguish between half long and long - half long is actually worse than long as long at least means that I have to back up. Half-long usually means I can drive through the table.

ttmonster
05-02-2016, 08:53 PM
True , but I have found half long serves that seem to get their second bounce just on the white line or thereafter tend to mess up a lot of people, especially who prefer looping instead of going over the table ... again depends on the opponent , isn't it ?

Ah, if you can consistently attack short heavy backspin over the table, that makes sense. In my experience, this strategy has risks, but it works if it can be done consistently.

I don't seriously distinguish between half long and long - half long is actually worse than long as long at least means that I have to back up. Half-long usually means I can drive through the table.

NextLevel
05-02-2016, 09:32 PM
True , but I have found half long serves that seem to get their second bounce just on the white line or thereafter tend to mess up a lot of people, especially who prefer looping instead of going over the table ... again depends on the opponent , isn't it ?

This is third ball but even for serves, a high level coach told me that almost no one serves consistently short below the world class level and that you are better off waiting for a ball to come long to loop it than to reach over the table to attack a ball. The number of balls that will drop short are far fewer than most people think and those that do are usually slow and high. If a ball is truly short, you usually have to reach for it unless it is slowed by the backspin (this gives you time and spin to drop it short though). At the lower levels, (below 2600 according to this coach) it is better to take the above as mantra rather than wait for specific opponents to play properly. If you let the first couple of serves come long and attack, the opponent will have his serve game drop a couple of levels unless he has really good long serves. One good sign that you are pushing long serves is when you can't drop any of the oponents serves short.

ttmonster
05-02-2016, 09:42 PM
Complete agree on the points you have made @NextLevel, to be more specific I was mostly refering to short or half long serves that bounces in the blind zone / pocket . @thekleifheit13 (http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/member.php?27091-thekleifheit13) Here is some detailed information on how to receive no spin serves, my practice partner usually mixes a very slight underside and hence I need to open the bat a little more than prescribed here but this is the classical response to a complete no spin serve, the racket angle will change if your opponent adds a little side top or side under to it ....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z13pY2qEAzY

thekleifheit13
05-03-2016, 01:33 PM
Thanks TTM. I had much better luck yesterday preventing him from attacking too strongly by dropping his serves short. If I felt confident I really tried to rip them but place them well, which worked out about 50/50. I'll watch the video when I'm not in class ;)