PDA

View Full Version : Zhang Jike CONFIRMED and will play singles at Rio Olympics 2016!



TableTennisDaily
05-20-2016, 08:58 AM
After weeks of speculation and various articles surfacing across the web, table tennis fans across the world have been awaiting eagerly on who Team CHINA will select for the singles event at the upcoming Olympic Games in Rio. A popular discussion took place on TTD (http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?13001-Zhang-Jike-Will-Play-Singles-Rio-Olympics-2016!) with many users trying to work out who Liu will pick. Ma Long secured a singles spot with his victory at the Asian Cup. The second singles position has been between Zhang Jike and Xu Xin. Liu Guoliang today announced Zhang Jike will join Ma Long in the singles event and Xu Xin will join the players in the team event.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/zhangjikegoingrioolympics2016.jpg

Men

Singles - Ma Long and Zhang Jike
Team - Ma Long, Zhang Jike and Xu Xin

Women

Singles - Li Xiaoxia and Ding Ning
Team - Li Xiaoxia, Ding Ning and Liu Shiwen

Reigning Olympic Champion Zhang Jike will get a chance to defend his title at the Rio Olympics 2016. Do you agree with the selection?

Michal_Z
05-20-2016, 09:02 AM
Just posted about it in the other topic..
I didnt know about LGL sayin, just looked up here:
http://ittf.com/ittf_ranking/olympic_singles_ranking/
where you can clearly see ZJK being in the green and FZD and XX NOT .. that means ZJK goes..

What makes me sad is, that world no. 1 in women is not going to play singles.. poor LSW :( :( :(

TableTennisDaily
05-20-2016, 09:14 AM
Zhang Jike will get a chance to defend his title. Relive the moment from London 2012 below by youtuber SpinClips


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjHy9Tg2Ymg

bobpuls
05-20-2016, 09:37 AM
There will be no chance against the Ma Long machine...

dio_hgw
05-20-2016, 09:44 AM
It doesn't matter if I or anyone else agrees or not; LGL knows better. Though, I have written my thoughts in the other thread, I had predicted this decision and personally I like it.

Chen Chen
05-20-2016, 09:46 AM
The list from china site released a couple of days ago, Zhangjike was placed at the second place followed by Malong, which means he will play the men's singles according to the Chinese system. Xuxin will play the team matches.

10009

GO Zhangjike!

Chen Chen
05-20-2016, 09:54 AM
There will be no chance against the Ma Long machine...

Never underestimate Zhangjike, he is the only one played the Olympics before in this Chinese team.

ping fun
05-20-2016, 10:26 AM
I really liked this choice ... Zhang jike is better than xx in many aspects that liu and other coaches know . I mean they know better than us . Its not just about one or two games , its about the whole career . I wish zjk can defend his title in a time that every one expect malong to win the olympic title . Cause he is capable of doing such a master pieces ...

sktrdie
05-20-2016, 11:12 AM
It's just sad that XX will be 30 at the next olympics and therefore won't probably be able to play them.

anchorschmidt
05-20-2016, 11:37 AM
It's just a bad decision by the Olympic committee to only allow 2 to play instead of 3. Xu Xin and Liu Shiwen have to sit out even though they rightfully deserve medals.

dio_hgw
05-20-2016, 12:17 PM
With all due respect I don't think that they "rightfully deserve medals". Nobody rightfully deserves anything unless they actually win it. XX and LSW are great but for some reason they lacked a tiny bit of something to gain their coaches' choice.
Of course there could be more spots for each country, but those are the rules and the concept of the Olympic Games is not only the best players to be there, but also as many countries and peoples as possible to be represented.

Sali
05-20-2016, 12:23 PM
ZJK or XX - prefer XX but ZJK can be. But not picking up women ranked no 1 in the world is outrageous. I understand that Liu is not the best regarding nerves but still she deserves much more then ding ning who had the opportunity last time and failed.

Chen Chen
05-20-2016, 12:23 PM
It's just a bad decision by the Olympic committee to only allow 2 to play instead of 3. Xu Xin and Liu Shiwen have to sit out even though they rightfully deserve medals.

They are just trying to stop Chinese table tennis players to win everything.

anchorschmidt
05-20-2016, 12:31 PM
I understand what you mean, but I think it's unfair that the bronze medal match in 2012 happened between Chuang Chih Yhuan and Dimitrij Ovtcharov while a player of Ma Long's calibre was sitting out. It also cheapens the medal in my point of view. Timo Boll's and Michael Maze's bronze medals at the WTTC are greater achievements than D.O. Bronze medal for precisely this reason.

Of course there should be a limit but the Olympics were fine when 3 players from each country were playing till 2008. Also, no one really cares about what happens before the round of 32 (where pretty much the same players play that we know of). I can't recall a single memorable match from any Olympic games that happened before the round of 32.

It's a good thing that unknown players get a chance but I think it's a bigger tragedy that players who have worked so hard and are so good have to sit out.

dio_hgw
05-20-2016, 01:01 PM
Yes, you are right, for some athletes it's sad and hard, though I always think Olympics as something different, something much more multi-dimensional, than each sport's World Championships. Maybe top-ranked players or top-ranked countries or at least the reigning champions should be awarded with extra places.
But on the other hand, competitive sports are a matter of one spot, one tournament, one point, one millimeter, one millisecond and that is sometimes unfair but is also part of the sports' magic; you have to fight every single moment cause you don't know if you will be given another chance.

NextLevel
05-20-2016, 01:08 PM
ZJK or XX - prefer XX but ZJK can be. But not picking up women ranked no 1 in the world is outrageous. I understand that Liu is not the best regarding nerves but still she deserves much more then ding ning who had the opportunity last time and failed.

There was an Olympic trial tournament. Kong Linghui was very disappointed with Liu Shiwen's performance against Doi Kem. It's the kind of loss that can have coach's scratching their heads. To compound LSW's issues, LXX won the trial. Had Ding Ning won, LSW would have had a chance, but with LXX winning, that was all she wrote.

The same with XX. Losing to CCY at the trials sealed his fate. Had he reached the final, then he could have had a chance.

Sali
05-20-2016, 01:35 PM
There was an Olympic trial tournament. Kong Linghui was very disappointed with Liu Shiwen's performance against Doi Kem. It's the kind of loss that can have coach's scratching their heads. To compound LSW's issues, LXX won the trial. Had Ding Ning won, LSW would have had a chance, but with LXX winning, that was all she wrote.

The same with XX. Losing to CCY at the trials sealed his fate. Had he reached the final, then he could have had a chance.
Considering World Tour Liu Shiwen did not loose a single match this year, while Ding Ning lost to Liu and Li XX. Also Ding Ning lost to Mima Ito at the same tournament. Do Hoi Kem is not ranked that high but she is also very young and improved a lot. Of course it is not my business who Chinese choose to play olympics, but for me it is litte bit unfair.

UpSideDownCarl
05-20-2016, 01:53 PM
The one thing I would say about the 2 player max from each country for singles: there is only one country that has more than two players who deserve to go to the singles event. It is sad that that is the case. China has 4 that really could be considered. Most other countries have one that should be considered and another 1 or 2 who would fill out their team so they can play the team event. Japan, Korea, and Germany have 2 players that deserve a shot in the singles event. No other country is even 2 deep on their roster. But Japan and Germany don't really have a 3rd player. And Korea has a few older players who don't play as much, but, who, in some ways may be better than the Korean younger generation. In spite of lower world ranking or not even appearing on the World Ranking because of inactivity the older generation Korean players may still have something over the younger generation.

So, unfortunately, allowing China to send 3 would probably mean 3 medals for China and none for any other country. I don't like the way this has been sorted out. And it would be nice if there was more talent outside China in table tennis. But this is the reality of the situation. It is also why China does not send too many of its provincial players to world events. There are really another several players from China who could be in the World's top 10 if they had the exposure in World Tour play.

So, does anyone have any other ideas of how to run the Olympic Singles Event where all the top players who deserve to be there can play, without one country winning all the medals? It is a testament to the level of talent in China that they have 4 guys who really are better than anyone else entering the event. And really probably could have several more. And no other country can actually field more than 2 that have a shot at placing in the top 4!

Sali
05-20-2016, 01:59 PM
The one thing I would say about the 2 player max from each country for singles: there is only one country that has more than two players who deserve to go to the singles event. It is sad that that is the case. China has 4 that really could be considered. Most other countries have one that should be considered and another 1 or 2 who would fill out their team so they can play the team event. Japan, Korea, and Germany have 2 players that deserve a shot in the singles event. No other country is even 2 deep on their roster. But Japan and Germany don't really have a 3rd player. And Korea has a few older players who don't play as much, but, who, in some ways may be better than the Korean younger generation. In spite of lower world ranking or not even appearing on the World Ranking because of inactivity the older generation Korean players may still have something over the younger generation.

So, unfortunately, allowing China to send 3 would probably mean 3 medals for China and none for any other country. I don't like the way this has been sorted out. And it would be nice if there was more talent outside China in table tennis. But this is the reality of the situation. It is also why China does not send too many of its provincial players to world events. There are really another several players from China who could be in the World's top 10 if they had the exposure in World Tour play.

So, does anyone have any other ideas of how to run the Olympic Singles Event where all the top players who deserve to be there can play, without one country winning all the medals? It is a testament to the level of talent in China that they have 4 guys who really are better than anyone else entering the event. And really probably could have several more. And no other country can actually field more than 2 that have a shot at placing in the top 4!
This is true. That is why I think world chamionships or grand finals are much more interesting. Anyway I have no other soultion. This system is to help other countries send their players even if they are very poor, but still they can compete and maybe take autograph from Ma Long :)

sktrdie
05-20-2016, 02:20 PM
I understand what you mean, but I think it's unfair that the bronze medal match in 2012 happened between Chuang Chih Yhuan and Dimitrij Ovtcharov while a player of Ma Long's calibre was sitting out. It also cheapens the medal in my point of view. Timo Boll's and Michael Maze's bronze medals at the WTTC are greater achievements than D.O. Bronze medal for precisely this reason.

Of course there should be a limit but the Olympics were fine when 3 players from each country were playing till 2008. Also, no one really cares about what happens before the round of 32 (where pretty much the same players play that we know of). I can't recall a single memorable match from any Olympic games that happened before the round of 32.

It's a good thing that unknown players get a chance but I think it's a bigger tragedy that players who have worked so hard and are so good have to sit out.

amen.

Also from TableTennista, this is not an official announcement yet...

NextLevel
05-20-2016, 03:08 PM
amen.

Also from TableTennista, this is not an official announcement yet: http://tabletennista.com/2016/5/zhang-jike-has-locked-his-olympic-singles-seat-videos/

It is official. This is how you know.

http://www.ittf.com/World_Events/2016OG/2016_OG_qualified_players.pdf

NextLevel
05-20-2016, 03:11 PM
The one thing I would say about the 2 player max from each country for singles: there is only one country that has more than two players who deserve to go to the singles event. It is sad that that is the case. China has 4 that really could be considered. Most other countries have one that should be considered and another 1 or 2 who would fill out their team so they can play the team event. Japan, Korea, and Germany have 2 players that deserve a shot in the singles event. No other country is even 2 deep on their roster. But Japan and Germany don't really have a 3rd player. And Korea has a few older players who don't play as much, but, who, in some ways may be better than the Korean younger generation. In spite of lower world ranking or not even appearing on the World Ranking because of inactivity the older generation Korean players may still have something over the younger generation.

So, unfortunately, allowing China to send 3 would probably mean 3 medals for China and none for any other country. I don't like the way this has been sorted out. And it would be nice if there was more talent outside China in table tennis. But this is the reality of the situation. It is also why China does not send too many of its provincial players to world events. There are really another several players from China who could be in the World's top 10 if they had the exposure in World Tour play.

So, does anyone have any other ideas of how to run the Olympic Singles Event where all the top players who deserve to be there can play, without one country winning all the medals? It is a testament to the level of talent in China that they have 4 guys who really are better than anyone else entering the event. And really probably could have several more. And no other country can actually field more than 2 that have a shot at placing in the top 4!

Guys, this is more than just about China. People are so focused on this best player thing that they don't look at Olympics politics in each nation. Some countries will not send athletes if they have no chance of winning a medal or placing respectably. The ITTF had to do what it did to make sure that countries still felt table tennis was worth investing in for the short term. Last Olympics for example, MAtilda Ekholm from Sweden was not sent by her country after she qualified. At least, this year, because she and a teammate qualified, they are sending her.

Sali
05-20-2016, 03:29 PM
Guys, this is more than just about China. People are so focused on this best player thing that they don't look at Olympics politics in each nation. Some countries will not send athletes if they have no chance of winning a medal or placing respectably. The ITTF had to do what it did to make sure that countries still felt table tennis was worth investing in for the short term. Last Olympics for example, MAtilda Ekholm from Sweden was not sent by her country after she qualified. At least, this year, because she and a teammate qualified, they are sending her.
What is more each country has a problem, not only China. Japan and Germany fight for bronze medal. Japan of course Mizutani is no 1, bo who is no 2 - Niwa (very poor from two years), Yoshimura (came up just last years but still has ups and downs), Oshima (fought brave with Ma Long last year, but since then lost almost everything), Kenta (poor last year but now improving, won with oshima easily not far ago).
The same with Germany, Ovtcharov is obvious, but who is next - Boll??? (quite old, many injuries lately, but never lost to Mizutani), maybe Steger who is quite solid but will never reach semis.
And so on - each country has a problem

NextLevel
05-20-2016, 04:27 PM
What is more each country has a problem, not only China. Japan and Germany fight for bronze medal. Japan of course Mizutani is no 1, bo who is no 2 - Niwa (very poor from two years), Yoshimura (came up just last years but still has ups and downs), Oshima (fought brave with Ma Long last year, but since then lost almost everything), Kenta (poor last year but now improving, won with oshima easily not far ago).
The same with Germany, Ovtcharov is obvious, but who is next - Boll??? (quite old, many injuries lately, but never lost to Mizutani), maybe Steger who is quite solid but will never reach semis.
And so on - each country has a problem

Maybe in your theory but in practice, Germany will only send Steger if he is playing the teams. They would probably reject him if he was the best player in the country because he has no chance of medaling. Germany has rejected better tennis players like Tommy Haas or even other athletes who have qualified for other sports. The point here is that to make table tennis sustainable, you need countries to invest and they will only invest in Olympics if they have a chance of winning.

Baal
05-20-2016, 04:29 PM
With all due respect I don't think that they "rightfully deserve medals". Nobody rightfully deserves anything unless they actually win it. XX and LSW are great but for some reason they lacked a tiny bit of something to gain their coaches' choice.
Of course there could be more spots for each country, but those are the rules and the concept of the Olympic Games is not only the best players to be there, but also as many countries and peoples as possible to be represented.

Yes but nothing stopped them from expanding the draw. It was a transparent move to keep China from sweeping medals and it flies in the face of what sports should be about -- especially individual sports like table tennis. Let the best players play.

Baal
05-20-2016, 04:32 PM
I am glad that one of the handful of Grand Slam winners in our sport gets to defend his gold medal. There will be time for FZD. And XX has never accomplished as much in big events.

TTFrenzy
05-20-2016, 04:33 PM
In the end the lineups were somehow predictable but of course I wasnt 100 % sure. Chinese coaches always go with safer solutions and the truth is ma long zhang jike ding ning and li xiaoxia all delivered when they had to deliver, sadly XX and LSW did not. LSW is definitely unlucky, if she wasnt affected from the DN injury during their final she would be cruyshing everyone now.

Its interesting how some results have a huge impact on players carreers.

Zhang jike had a tremendous boost of confidence after winning against ma long in 2010 trials, then came the participation in 2010 wtttc (the weird thing is that if wang hao was not in such a bad form, LGL would have never replaced him with zhang) and of course the 2011 title.

On the other hand LSW was to blame for the 2010 loss (up till then she was considered the most promising young player), even though ding ning also lost her match being 2-0 up against feng tianwei

Tony's Table Tennis
05-20-2016, 06:04 PM
As my prediction in 2012
Xu Xin will never play Olympic singles
This is pretty much is best chance
Next one, FZD is for sure and then another up and rising champion
Sad to be a member of the Chinese National Table Tennis team in a way.
Xu Xin, the 1st world number 1 not to ever qualify for Olympics - reason, because he is from China and only 2 people can represent a billion

Takkyu_wa_inochi
05-20-2016, 06:20 PM
Lets not forget the Japanese Team, Niwa no2 is very strange. Yoshimura looks much more promising. Niwa has not a lot of results recently. And its very wrong not to let Ito play singles. She just beated Ding Ning at Asian Qualifiers !!!! Fukuhara, and even more Ishikawa have a long losing record against Chinese players. Fukuhara has less than a handful victories, and Ishikawa , like Mizutani NEVER EVER won !!!!!

totally stupid decisions...

Tony's Table Tennis
05-20-2016, 06:45 PM
Lets not forget the Japanese Team, Niwa no2 is very strange. Yoshimura looks much more promising. Niwa has not a lot of results recently. And its very wrong not to let Ito play singles. She just beated Ding Ning at Asian Qualifiers !!!! Fukuhara, and even more Ishikawa have a long losing record against Chinese players. Fukuhara has less than a handful victories, and Ishikawa , like Mizutani NEVER EVER won !!!!!

totally stupid decisions...

I also said in 2012
This 2 player policy will not only hurt China
It will hurt Japan, Korea, Germany

So in future, less kids will want to go for table tennis, as there is no more olympic glory
well done to our leaders. Olympic is no longer that special any more

Lolman
05-20-2016, 11:17 PM
I really wanted to see Xu Xin in the singles, to be fair to him, he has beaten Zhang Jike so many times!

NextLevel
05-21-2016, 01:16 AM
Lets not forget the Japanese Team, Niwa no2 is very strange. Yoshimura looks much more promising. Niwa has not a lot of results recently. And its very wrong not to let Ito play singles. She just beated Ding Ning at Asian Qualifiers !!!! Fukuhara, and even more Ishikawa have a long losing record against Chinese players. Fukuhara has less than a handful victories, and Ishikawa , like Mizutani NEVER EVER won !!!!!

totally stupid decisions...The Japanese coaches laid down the qualification rules and followed them. Most of the contest was last year.

NextLevel
05-21-2016, 01:17 AM
I also said in 2012
This 2 player policy will not only hurt China
It will hurt Japan, Korea, Germany

So in future, less kids will want to go for table tennis, as there is no more olympic glory
well done to our leaders. Olympic is no longer that special any more

Given how most countries handle Olympic budgeting, this can hardly be true.

Matt Hetherington
05-21-2016, 05:25 AM
The two player system is the best system for the growth of the sport. If a country wins an olympic medal in a sport it usually receives quite a substantial increase in sport funding. Giving other countries a chance to win Olympic medals helps put the sport on the map in countries other than China.

I know after Chinese Taipei won the men's doubles at the world championships they received quite a significant increase in funding from private investors and the government sport department.

On the note of Zhang Jike being selected for singles, he is definitely the best choice. Should he win then China will have the greatest table tennis player in history with two grand slams. Should Ma Long win then he will join the ranks of the grand slam champions. Unless the two of them both lose it's really a win/win for China in the record books.

dio_hgw
05-21-2016, 08:34 AM
Yes but nothing stopped them from expanding the draw. It was a transparent move to keep China from sweeping medals and it flies in the face of what sports should be about -- especially individual sports like table tennis. Let the best players play.

Maybe so, but keeping China from sweeping medals is not necessarily bad for the sport. More countries, more people will get interested that way. It's like the World Cup in football. Traditionally, all the best teams came from Europe or Latin America and lately African countries, but the competition and the sport needs USA, Jamaica, Costa Rica, Australia, China, Japan, South Korea etc.
What if there was an open qualifying tournament? China would probably get 10 or more spots! They do nothing wrong, they are admirable for their level, but less people would care. Also the general level of the games will probably be higher now, cause everybody has a better chance to win at least the bronze medal. Even the CNT players will feel the pressure and will have to give their best, cause if ZJK or ML lose there will not be FZD or XX to save the medal for their country.

Baal
05-21-2016, 05:02 PM
Maybe so, but keeping China from sweeping medals is not necessarily bad for the sport. More countries, more people will get interested that way. It's like the World Cup in football. Traditionally, all the best teams came from Europe or Latin America and lately African countries, but the competition and the sport needs USA, Jamaica, Costa Rica, Australia, China, Japan, South Korea etc.
What if there was an open qualifying tournament? China would probably get 10 or more spots! They do nothing wrong, they are admirable for their level, but less people would care. Also the general level of the games will probably be higher now, cause everybody has a better chance to win at least the bronze medal. Even the CNT players will feel the pressure and will have to give their best, cause if ZJK or ML lose there will not be FZD or XX to save the medal for their country.

I do understand that argument. And it is clearly the argument that carried the day.

Still, it seems like cheating to me, especially for an individual sport. If several of the world's top 20 are not allowed to play, it seems to me that it cheapens the value of an Olympic gold.

( North/Central American football at World Cup is clearly a whole lot better than the table tennis).

Tony's Table Tennis
05-21-2016, 08:32 PM
Given how most countries handle Olympic budgeting, this can hardly be true.

Given how must countries handle Olympic budgeting.
Even qualified players will not make it, as they are not medal prospects players

But I guess you don't see or understand my meaning with kids not going for table tennis.
Table tennis is dropping rapidly in Asia
Maybe you will understand my statement in 10 years time

Tony's Table Tennis
05-21-2016, 08:34 PM
The two player system is the best system for the growth of the sport. If a country wins an olympic medal in a sport it usually receives quite a substantial increase in sport funding. Giving other countries a chance to win Olympic medals helps put the sport on the map in countries other than China.

I know after Chinese Taipei won the men's doubles at the world championships they received quite a significant increase in funding from private investors and the government sport department.

On the note of Zhang Jike being selected for singles, he is definitely the best choice. Should he win then China will have the greatest table tennis player in history with two grand slams. Should Ma Long win then he will join the ranks of the grand slam champions. Unless the two of them both lose it's really a win/win for China in the record books.

Matt, you are wrong here
Chinese Taipei funding came from World Champ, not Olympic :)
And to be more precise, Chinese Taipei (Table Tennis Association) did not get any funding from the private investors.
It is Chuang's Chih Yuan Table Tennis Academy

Tony's Table Tennis
05-21-2016, 08:37 PM
I do understand that argument. And it is clearly the argument that carried the day.

Still, it seems like cheating to me, especially for an individual sport. If several of the world's top 20 are not allowed to play, it seems to me that it cheapens the value of an Olympic gold.

( North/Central American football at World Cup is clearly a whole lot better than the table tennis).

To me, the pinnacle of table tennis is no longer Olympic
In facts, Olympic is probably lower rated/leveled than some world tours.

The world champs, world cup, certain world tours, will provide a much higher competition and level of table tennis.
Olympic is like a joke for table tennis.
Imagine Team USA swimming only allowed 2 swimmers per category, how about sprinters too? Team USA wins way too many medals in those 2 sports - its bad for the sport too then
If swimming and athletics, they also make it 2 players per category - this will also lower the level of the tournament

Matt Hetherington
05-22-2016, 12:54 AM
Matt, you are wrong here
Chinese Taipei funding came from World Champ, not Olympic :)
And to be more precise, Chinese Taipei (Table Tennis Association) did not get any funding from the private investors.
It is Chuang's Chih Yuan Table Tennis Academy

I said the world championships. It was just an example (a bad one obviously lol)

The point is, Olympic medals result in greater funding for the sport and it's national associations.

NextLevel
05-22-2016, 03:31 AM
Given how must countries handle Olympic budgeting.
Even qualified players will not make it, as they are not medal prospects players

But I guess you don't see or understand my meaning with kids not going for table tennis.
Table tennis is dropping rapidly in Asia
Maybe you will understand my statement in 10 years time

Kids not going for TT has nothing to do with whether one or two or three people can get to Olympics in singles. I wrote elsewhere that it will be interesting to see whether TT's popularity can survive its decline in China. But that decline will have little to do with the number of spots in the Olympics singles event,

ttmonster
05-22-2016, 03:58 AM
One more way could have been to increase the number of events and also have doubles and Mixed Doubles as separate events , and have the teams in the world championship format, kind of how athletics / swimming have more events and more medals. Instead of restricting the number of entries, trying to increase the number of medals would have been a better option .. they could have restricted the number of entries in those events instead of singles where they could have kept 3 players per country.

I personally feel, Olympic singles medals should go to the best of the players no matter which country, if it is China , so be it . This has diluted the level of competition and always raises the question , is olympic bronze medal is as fairly contested as a 3rd place in world championship ?

NextLevel
05-22-2016, 04:22 AM
One more way could have been to increase the number of events and also have doubles and Mixed Doubles as separate events , and have the teams in the world championship format, kind of how athletics / swimming have more events and more medals. Instead of restricting the number of entries, trying to increase the number of medals would have been a better option .. they could have restricted the number of entries in those events instead of singles where they could have kept 3 players per country.

I personally feel, Olympic singles medals should go to the best of the players no matter which country, if it is China , so be it . This has diluted the level of competition and always raises the question , is olympic bronze medal is as fairly contested as a 3rd place in world championship ?

I think that idea was also considered and I am not sure what came of it. In any case, they would have to keep China out of that as well and that would not fix the problem. Some things required to grow a sport are not fair to specific individuals. IF Lebron James was paid his true value as basketball player, it would be tough to afford him. But he knows that his status is tied to the NBA and winning so he can take less to make things work and even agree to take less as part of a deal with the Player's Union and ownership. The point is that people should understand the driver of these decisions and not just focus on what they don't like about them.

dio_hgw
05-22-2016, 07:17 AM
To me, the pinnacle of table tennis is no longer Olympic
In facts, Olympic is probably lower rated/leveled than some world tours.

The world champs, world cup, certain world tours, will provide a much higher competition and level of table tennis.
Olympic is like a joke for table tennis.
Imagine Team USA swimming only allowed 2 swimmers per category, how about sprinters too? Team USA wins way too many medals in those 2 sports - its bad for the sport too then
If swimming and athletics, they also make it 2 players per category - this will also lower the level of the tournament

Swimming and athletics are generally another story cause there is the extra interest for breaking records. However, in this year's summer olympics each country is limited to 3 participants in athletics and 2 participants in swimming, even though more could have met the qualification standards.
Obviously this is a general trend decided by the IOC in order medals to be spread, more countries to get involved and propaganda based on sports dominance to be fought. Probably also doping will be less in the Olympics (but likely more in national, tournament and qualification level).
I tend to find this policy right but I can't say that you and Baal and many more don't have reasonable arguments. We'll see how it works...

Tony's Table Tennis
05-22-2016, 09:14 AM
Kids not going for TT has nothing to do with whether one or two or three people can get to Olympics in singles. I wrote elsewhere that it will be interesting to see whether TT's popularity can survive its decline in China. But that decline will have little to do with the number of spots in the Olympics singles event,

Yes it does
Parents all aim for highest level of achievement
Olympic glory has been in China for a long time and that is why they put so much time and money (you have any idea how poor parents need to fund/bribe coaches from youth?)
I guess maybe you don't quite understand Chinese way of thinking.
As a westerner thinking, I would agree with you, but then again, Chinese sports star will cry when getting interviewed when they achieve olympic glory - to proof to the world that a Chinese person is also worthy to compete on world stage.
China has change a lot since ww2, from sick dog of asia to world champion. A history maybe you will never understand.

If I am a Chinese parent, I will get my kids involved with a sports that China can send more entries.
Have you ever thought that all the ITTF rule changes - included the 2 player rule have all combined to destroy Chinese table tennis?

Tony's Table Tennis
05-22-2016, 09:21 AM
dio_hgw, matt

It has already been 4 years. I agree that time will tell

Matt, my apologies, you did say world champ medals :), but your chinese taipei example is flawed. Since the last olympic and world champ medals, Chinese Taipei had no boost, but rather the main investor had a problem with CCY, where CCY quit from the main investors - as he played in China and not Taiwan. So I must say, things are going far from right in Taipei. I still don't see any boost that you are referring to, but I agree with you the logic if a medal came from NZ, your national champ would actually get sent and not just rejected. A SA player was rejected in 1996 olympic as she was never a medal prospect too - that killed TT in SA I reckon (what is the purpose to train if we will never ever go to the olympics?)
Maybe there is a boost from Germany? From England? Yes, no? its 4 years, lets wait another few.....

Time will tell if this 2 player is working.
I agree that the IOC is making olympic entries fewer. 10 years to see if it is good or bad
So far all other TT changes has been mostly bad

Dio, me and baal had this debate 4+ years ago already, i really don't have time to dig up old stuff.
As I said, Xu Xin will be the best player never to get to the olympics, and he won't be the only one in the future. I said this way before london 2012.

Maybe Olympic should cut away from singles, and only focus on team - as this is what olympic medals is becoming - not about player, but about how many medals a country is limited to have.
I also see IOC will one day limit teams to 1 player only - as China still have a high percentage of having both gold and silver medals.

NextLevel
05-22-2016, 12:38 PM
Yes it does
Parents all aim for highest level of achievement
Olympic glory has been in China for a long time and that is why they put so much time and money (you have any idea how poor parents need to fund/bribe coaches from youth?)
I guess maybe you don't quite understand Chinese way of thinking.
As a westerner thinking, I would agree with you, but then again, Chinese sports star will cry when getting interviewed when they achieve olympic glory - to proof to the world that a Chinese person is also worthy to compete on world stage.
China has change a lot since ww2, from sick dog of asia to world champion. A history maybe you will never understand.

If I am a Chinese parent, I will get my kids involved with a sports that China can send more entries.
Have you ever thought that all the ITTF rule changes - included the 2 player rule have all combined to destroy Chinese table tennis?

No, I have not. China still gets three gold medallists in the team event and are still the top nation, so the total number of medalling athletes is the same. The sport is getting killed by more prestigious sports and computer games.

I have generally understood why people say that the Olympics is not as competitive. But I find the logic that says these changes hurt TT globally to be unconvincing. It's mostly people who want to see great matches but do not care about Olympics politics.

Matt Hetherington
05-23-2016, 04:21 AM
It's a well known fact, if you win an olympic medal in any sport in most countries then you are likely to receive more funding for your sport and also become more attractive to sponsors.

I agree with NextLevel, table tennis is definitely falling under competition from other sports. This is something which Peter Karlsson mentioned in his interview with me a few years ago and also what I heard in New Zealand. In the 70s and 80s table tennis was much more popular than it is now but there was a big growth in different indoor sports, particularly indoor cricket which started to take players away from table tennis.

I like how far off tangent we can sometimes get with these threads though because they always seem to come back to the same thing (you would think ITTF would get on the same page with it too!)

Der_Echte
05-23-2016, 04:29 AM
One more way could have been to increase the number of events and also have doubles and Mixed Doubles as separate events , and have the teams in the world championship format, kind of how athletics / swimming have more events and more medals. Instead of restricting the number of entries, trying to increase the number of medals would have been a better option .. they could have restricted the number of entries in those events instead of singles where they could have kept 3 players per country.

I personally feel, Olympic singles medals should go to the best of the players no matter which country, if it is China , so be it . This has diluted the level of competition and always raises the question , is olympic bronze medal is as fairly contested as a 3rd place in world championship ?

I like Monster's idea, it would make Umpires and Organizers work a lot more to earn the piddling sums of money they get. still, an international umpire cannot beat the chances at photo ops and maybe going on a thunder run with Adam Barbrow...

Michal_Z
05-25-2016, 02:08 PM
Given how must countries handle Olympic budgeting.
Even qualified players will not make it, as they are not medal prospects players

But I guess you don't see or understand my meaning with kids not going for table tennis.
Table tennis is dropping rapidly in Asia
Maybe you will understand my statement in 10 years time

Tony - the problem is that this sport is really too complicated!
Its known that for fast thinking that is needed in table tennis (general tactics, strategy, rotation, direction and speed of ball; moving, weaknesses and position of the oponent, moving, weaknesses and position of the player) and you need to count in so many factors, that simply one half of your brain (that is typically needed for other activities) is not enough. So this is the only sport, where you need to turn on both brain hemispheres to be able to play top level. Kids of today - what are they doing? They are looking at their smartphones or tablets or notebooks, all the time they are damaging their brains with that f**ing white light, when not that, they are poisoning themselves with sugar and artificial food that is damaging their health, they are drinking milk and all the stuff made from it so they are causing themselves allergies and skin problems..
Tell me - how can kids of this generation play table tennis?
They are so lost..
It is so much easier to play some agressive RPG game or just play candy crush on the phone.. so many many stupid stuff that is melting their brains, who the hell would try hard to play table tennis?

I mean - that is my point of view..
And this is not affecting just table tennis, other sports too.. Kids are stupid. I mean - compare kids 20 years ago to kids now, see the difference?
Remember yourself young playing basketball or volleyball or other sports at school, what have you been capable of? Now I look at the kids and they are so poor..

TTFrenzy
05-26-2016, 12:30 AM
I think michal_z and nextlevel got straight to the point. Or maybe I just agree with their opinions

Computer games in the past 20 years have definitely damaged sports of all kinds not just table tennis and my perception is that u need to have exnperienced a certain level of play to understand professional or world class table tennis and admire it

How the hell can the average TV guy understand that ML's serve for example is quite deceptive being sidetopspin and not underspin leading to the opponent's bad push resulting in a high ball which allows ML to destroy it with perfect technique mechanics and athleticism?

Or why a BH loop kill of kreanga dima or any other great player is so damn perfect to execute and deserves utmost admiration against a heavy underspin ball?

I mean the average guy still thinks that table tennis is only wrist action and taht the chinese are the best because they practice all day and they are really short, thus faster than other players, which sometimes is a fact but mostly its a stupid stereotype

There is a comment in the olympic 2012 final of a hilarious guy who asks " what's all that sorcery when they serve?" which is exactly a simple but 100% accurate depiction of what "average" tv viewers understand about table tennis. Almost nothing : PPP

TTFrenzy
05-26-2016, 12:38 AM
As for computer games, I dont like to consider them evil or great but whether we like it or not they have a huge money pool. Im still a gamer myself and games can be good for the brain also suppose of course you dont play all day.

I witnessed the era where counterstrike was rising globally ,and many players made lots of money out of it so I dont demonize games so much. Its not something u can do for the rest of ur life but damn, if I was able to play games 20 to 35-40 as many professional gamers do, I would definitely do it.

Everything is good, as long as you combine targeting towards inner balance... sports and games or whatever else u like.

for chess lovers magnus carlsen is also training in tennis and at the gym, it seems awkward hearing this at first if u dont know about chess, but many chess profesionals have treated their body with the same intensity needed as their mind

Tony's Table Tennis
05-26-2016, 09:55 AM
In Chinese Table Tennis
Yes, computer games/other sports, is a threat.
Maybe not as crazy as the American and European kids, which sounds like a couch potato.
In China, they are also loosing kids to academic and business career options (to take over parents empire)

But in Chinese Table Tennis of just this decade - how many drop outs has happened in a "pro" level where they don't see hope in A team or Olympic Team
Already CNT is streamlining based on the Olympic Cycle
Less and less players make the mix and more focus on 3 to 4 players, than 5 to 8 players of previous generation.
Now, you can be world number 1 and top 3, and will never have a chance to play Olympic

Just like Matt state, a country need medals, these players also need medals to survive and to go into the history books.
With out a chance to even qualify - they will loose interest and change career paths - to maybe immigration (we already know how many left China already) or just change careers. Does it help Chinese TT if the next grand slam looses interest in the sport? or immigrates? Does it help table tennis if we loose these type of caliber?


table tennis in China is cruel since 20 years ago and more
It is just so much more cruel today with ITTF and IOC
Nextlevel hasn't been inside Chinese table tennis system (maybe just from the internet), and he will never understand this in a personally level as I said above
Yes, all your tv and sports does make a different, but your German or USA table tennis system is not so cruel - is it?

Will Olympic hurt table tennis? maybe yes, maybe no
Will 2 player rule devalue Olympic table tennis - yes for sure - the level from QF and below is a too low. SF and Final is still world class
Its like a watching a low rated world tour where good matches start on the final day or final 2 days.....

I sit in RSA, and hope RSA can one day make the olympics, but then I also sit in another chair that a young Xu Xin and LSW, who both are good enough to be Olympic champion - only have 2 or 3 shots at it (8 or 12 years), but can't make the cut.
Remember the great LGL, he made Olympics as the 3rd player.
If LGL didn't make it as per 2 player rule, our table tennis today would not be as great - would it?
So the ones who love LGL (I think you guys all do), what if he didn't make the cut?
Xu Xin and LSW can never be head coach of China, as they do not have olympic gold (unless CNT change policies in the future)

3 to 2, we will see the effect soon. It is starting in China, soon I feel the world can feel it too.
what will happen after that when China still continues sweeping all (isn't that the one thing IOC/ITTF is trying to stop)
Net height
table size
bigger ball
bigger blades
thinner rubbers

imo, the focus should be on uplifting the weak, not reducing the strong
CNT and CTTA won't back out. There is 30 + provinces
Only 2 people from 1 billion can make the cut.
I rather go into swimming, there is so much more medals options there than table tennis

NextLevel
05-26-2016, 02:00 PM
TTT,

I am not clear what your argument is. At least, I see that you are willing to consider that the Olympic TT funding might get better with less Chinese dominance of the three medal spots. That's all the restriction does. It gives another country a higher chance of getting a medal. I can understand why you do not think it is good for China, and I guess time will tell whether the sport is truly bigger than China.

NextLevel
05-26-2016, 02:10 PM
Cai Zhenhua was never a World or Olympic Singles champion either, BTW. If the policy is new, then so be it. LSW and XX have not won a WTTC singles medal. They both have Olympics team medals which should count for something. In the end, the two athletes per country rule helps many more nations play singles and teams. The US qualified a team this year and two singles players. Players in Europe from countries like Finland are also getting people in. I know some people would prefer to see three Chinese people play rather than people from obscure TT nations but we have to take a serious look at our sport. We still haven't created events that make it more appealing to the broader public (I still believe coordination and competitive exhibitions would take things to another level. I would rather they take these risks than keep catering to just the top of the sport as long as the big picture is kept in view.

Tony's Table Tennis
05-30-2016, 11:31 PM
Next Level
I agree with where you are coming from, but there is a major flaw in your view, especially on the part of the bigger picture.

All these (new) countries now at olympic will not get a medal
without medals, they will not get funding
without funding, they will not win
without winning, they can't get medals
So many countries, but so little medals - most players will not have medal = no funding?

I already told Matt that Taiwan DID NOT get any more money from Olympic and World Champ medals
Will Germany get more? Maybe the German forum members can comment
I know France is getting more funding, but that has nothing to do with getting (past) medals

Cai Zhen Hua was before the time of the new rule + olympic



LGL was 3rd player - imagine a world today without LGL's leadership in the sport and what he is doing for the World?
and China not bigger than the sport - yes I agree, but who is doing more for the sport than any other country in the world? is it not China??
You can't one side write off China, and the other side need China/praise China. Otherwise you are just like the ITTF Chairman who is totally clueless and point all fingers at China.

If you really see the bigger picture, then you will realise if Germany, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore won all medals and not a single one for China in Rio or Tokyo Olympics - will this make table tennis better in the whole world?
Will this allow top 20 countries to get more funding? will this allow top 100 countries to get more funding? Will this push countries like NZ and South Africa to even send players to the Olympics? I honestly don't think it will help 50%+ of the countries in the world if China totally fails to the other top 5 countries.

I have to say, most of the worlds (including your Germans, Japanese, Singaporean, French) etc etc, became strong because of China.

XX and LSW, will never have a chance now
Tokyo is also out.
Tough luck, if they were not Chinese, given they skills and talent, i'm sure they have a shot at being olympic champion

So tell me, how is 2 player rule will make table tennis better?
Team USA will get 10 times funding for Tokyo?

NextLevel
05-31-2016, 07:53 AM
Tony,

The standards are not the same for every country. But if only China is winning the medals, then no one else is really investing in the sport.

And while you may not agree, other countries winning medals and China getting shut out is healthy for the sport even if only in the short term. Events like that built the WSA.

Tony's Table Tennis
05-31-2016, 08:28 AM
Tony,

The standards are not the same for every country. But if only China is winning the medals, then no one else is really investing in the sport.

And while you may not agree, other countries winning medals and China getting shut out is healthy for the sport even if only in the short term. Events like that built the WSA.

Tell me, how did China shut out / failure, built the WSA?
Do you know everything about WSA or just because there is 1 gold medal player and the player choose the "coaching" career, that you gathered it built the WSA?
Based on your logic, why isn't there a JOWA and JPA in Sweden, JPGA in France, JMSA in Belgian, VSA in Belarus,
And based on just the above 4 countries, how much development/growth/funding is there today compared to the past glories that the best player in that country achieved.

I think it is very naive to think that 1 medal will change a countries table tennis destiny.
Yes it will help, but that is just a minute issue out of the entire bigger picture.

This is not just a problem in Europe, but take Asia
Korea, Japan is maybe better off. Taiwan and Singapore is like the government don't care about it.
In your country, there is a junior olympic medal - how much did your national body provide for the player and the future? Lots?

NextLevel
05-31-2016, 10:28 AM
Tell me, how did China shut out / failure, built the WSA?
Do you know everything about WSA or just because there is 1 gold medal player and the player choose the "coaching" career, that you gathered it built the WSA?
Based on your logic, why isn't there a JOWA and JPA in Sweden, JPGA in France, JMSA in Belgian, VSA in Belarus,
And based on just the above 4 countries, how much development/growth/funding is there today compared to the past glories that the best player in that country achieved.

I think it is very naive to think that 1 medal will change a countries table tennis destiny.
Yes it will help, but that is just a minute issue out of the entire bigger picture.

This is not just a problem in Europe, but take Asia
Korea, Japan is maybe better off. Taiwan and Singapore is like the government don't care about it.
In your country, there is a junior olympic medal - how much did your national body provide for the player and the future? Lots?
Tony, in anything this complicated, you know that there are a lot of hidden and emotional assumptions underlying any argument. Feng Tianwei for example speaks about the attention and good that her bronze medal did for her and the sport as it was only the second Olympic medal in their history. For you, the government of Singapore doesn't care about it.

The WSA was a result of many things but it definitely would not have taken off without Schlager's world championship branding Look at Schlager without the world championship. I am just pointing out an example of the kind of attention that winning can bring to a sport in a country. I am sure that there are other ways of interpreting what I wrote.

In America, the government doesn't fund sports like in other countries - the national body is largely funded by membership dues and the Junior Olympics does not excite anyone per se. It's just a totally different set of assumptions we are working under. I have accepted that.

Tony's Table Tennis
06-01-2016, 05:18 PM
Tony, in anything this complicated, you know that there are a lot of hidden and emotional assumptions underlying any argument. Feng Tianwei for example speaks about the attention and good that her bronze medal did for her and the sport as it was only the second Olympic medal in their history. For you, the government of Singapore doesn't care about it.

The WSA was a result of many things but it definitely would not have taken off without Schlager's world championship branding Look at Schlager without the world championship. I am just pointing out an example of the kind of attention that winning can bring to a sport in a country. I am sure that there are other ways of interpreting what I wrote.

In America, the government doesn't fund sports like in other countries - the national body is largely funded by membership dues and the Junior Olympics does not excite anyone per se. It's just a totally different set of assumptions we are working under. I have accepted that.

So from the 2 you listed, that did nothing for the national sport.
In fact, how is Austria?
Sweden sure isn't so well
Taipei also didn't benefit.
So I think it is safe to say that a medal will not do "total wonders" for your country.
The fundamentals of helping table tennis is more than medals - ie life after the olympics.

NZ and RSA for example all had players qualified and NOC decided they are not medal hopes, so did not enter the player - this is reality.

China can loose all medals - I find it only a slight benefit to world table tennis.
If China pulls out of table tennis, I see this is a greater damage than other countries getting medals
This seesaw is not a balance one and ITTF needs to understand the real problem. It is not China winning too much, it is the other countries loosing too much.

ttmonster
06-01-2016, 07:07 PM
Tony , I don't agree with the view that restricting the number of medals is going to help improve the sport in other countries. Neither do I agree with you when you keep saying that China is doing a lot for the sport .

I will explain my POV. Restricting the number of medals is like implementing reservation or what you call "affirmative action" in the United States.We have seen the effects of caste based reservation in India. Ultimately it has become a tool in the hands of the politicians to garner more votes, and there are financially well off families who belong to the so called backward classes who keep taking advantage of the situation and get easier jobs etc. and increase their wealth even when they practically they don't deserve or qualify for those jobs, they don't need reservation and even they don't give back anything to their community from the hubris they accumulate using the system.

Now if we are going to implement similar country based affirmative action in Olympics , ultimately people are either going to shoot for easy bronze or going to clamor that China should have only have one participant going forward so that we have more "democracy" for the silver ... the moment you give people and easy way out by nature people will take it.
The fact that in some countries the funding is reduced because there is no medal prospect should be handled directly with the sports establishment in those countries and ITTF should . The revenue sharing model should be improved and ITTF should step in and prevent countries implementing moronic laws like they do in NewZealand where deserving players don't get into Olympics. And if the argument is that ITTF does not generate enough revenue, then they need to wake up and start figuring that out first instead of discussing the height of the net and size of the ball ...

Now coming to the constant drum beating on how much China is doing for the sport , I completely disagree with you Tony. They are doing what they need to do the improve the quality of the players in their country and improve their medal prospects. When was the last time did you hear that somebody authorized from the CNT is doing workshop with international coaches ? When did you hear CNT going on a trip to Africa and playing exhibition matches in Nigeria to improve the profile and popularity of the sport. They would rather do that on top of Burz Khalifa when there is enough oil money and endorsements !!

Both ITTF and the leading countries in the sport , China , Germany , Japan, South Korea, Chinese Taipei or Taiwan included have a lot left to do to help grow the sports ....


So from the 2 you listed, that did nothing for the national sport.
In fact, how is Austria?
Sweden sure isn't so well
Taipei also didn't benefit.
So I think it is safe to say that a medal will not do "total wonders" for your country.
The fundamentals of helping table tennis is more than medals - ie life after the olympics.

NZ and RSA for example all had players qualified and NOC decided they are not medal hopes, so did not enter the player - this is reality.

China can loose all medals - I find it only a slight benefit to world table tennis.
If China pulls out of table tennis, I see this is a greater damage than other countries getting medals
This seesaw is not a balance one and ITTF needs to understand the real problem. It is not China winning too much, it is the other countries loosing too much.

Tony's Table Tennis
06-01-2016, 07:18 PM
I love it when you say China is not doing much.
Especially Africa, and especially the amount of info I can share with you.
But sadly, I am busy at the moment. So let me just list a quick few

China in Africa project - http://ittf.com/stories/Stories_detail_juniors.asp?ID=36928&General_Catigory=&
China giving equipment to Africa (many countries) - link - no time to find
China send free coaches - i'm sure about 15 countries benefit - CTTA pays for the coach salary, local national body just covered accommodation and meals.
China offering free bursary/training for African players in China - if young and still student, they will put them in a school too - all funded by China

I'm sure I can list over 20 different type of instance about China in Africa.
Oh wait, there are tons of exhibition matches - just south africa alone, there is 2 the past 4 years,
Is this enough for you?

sadly your other top countries don't really care too much.
If each top 10 country can look after 10 countries, then we are going somewhere

ttmonster
06-01-2016, 07:45 PM
Thanks for the information, it does provide some evidence on what China is doing in Africa and I am ready to change my mind. But do you have evidence of similar initiatives in other countries ? It also seems a very current initiative after the ITTF dream intiative.

But it does not change the POV that the top countries are not doing enough ?

Why do you need to know which country I belong to ? How does it add any value to this discussion ? That is the particular mindset that is a bit revolting to me :)


I love it when you say China is not doing much.
Especially Africa, and especially the amount of info I can share with you.
But sadly, I am busy at the moment. So let me just list a quick few

China in Africa project - http://ittf.com/stories/Stories_detail_juniors.asp?ID=36928&General_Catigory=&
China giving equipment to Africa (many countries) - link - no time to find
China send free coaches - i'm sure about 15 countries benefit - CTTA pays for the coach salary, local national body just covered accommodation and meals.
China offering free bursary/training for African players in China - if young and still student, they will put them in a school too - all funded by China

I'm sure I can list over 20 different type of instance about China in Africa.
Oh wait, there are tons of exhibition matches - just south africa alone, there is 2 the past 4 years,

Good luck with your pov and not agreeing with me. You don't need to :)
Tell me, what did your country do?

Tony's Table Tennis
06-01-2016, 08:02 PM
Thanks for the information, it does provide some evidence on what China is doing in Africa and I am ready to change my mind. But do you have evidence of similar initiatives in other countries ? It also seems a very current initiative after the ITTF dream intiative.

But it does not change the POV that the top countries are not doing enough ?

Why do you need to know which country I belong to ? How does it add any value to this discussion ? That is the particular mindset that is a bit revolting to me :)

I don't need to waste my time.
You can choose to believe China is doing nothing.
Imo China is pretty much a silent hero in Table Tennis.
China should just pull the plug as the west will always be the same, no matter how much they do for the west.
Knowing your nationality can just give me a better idea on how clueless you could be if China is very involved in your country and confirming that your country not involved in any other

Go and google Chinese training centres in the world, I think 3 or 4 should come up and soon be in action