Change the short term mindset

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2016
469
738
1,403
Entertaining follow-up. The coach put together a smooth/LP combination racket for this guy after I heard him talking about this. He played with 1, yes, count it, ONE player who he NEVER loses to with his LP both sides racket. He played her with the new combination racket and got his clock cleaned.

After losing repeatedly for 1, count it, ONE hour, he went back to his locker mumbling to himself about how he can't play with that racket and how this person could never beat him with his normal racket. He brought out his normal racket. Proceeded to win.

My money says he will never pick up the combo racket again because he would have to learn to play with smooth rubber and read spin. And he is more concerned with winning against low level players than he is about actually learning something and improving.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

these people are too stubborn. my older sister (Joanna Song) plays with anti spin and holds the paddle wrong (half seemiller, half shakehand), and is basically a blocker/smasher. She's been around the same level (1600~) for years. I keep telling her to change to a normal setup, or at least long pips, or at the very least hold the paddle correctly. She also has low quality amateur serves, so I keep telling her to at least learn the pendulum serve. She never listens. The weird thing is, she can loop on her forehand, and she knows how to play backhands with an inverted rubber. Yet, she stubbornly sticks to limiting herself, making excuses like, 'it feels weird' or just 'no, I don't want to.'

My little brother(Daniel Song, rating 1000~) has the same mindset, but isn't as bad as a case. However, he thinks even more short term. He plays shakehand with a normal inverted setup. However, he is afraid of attacking, and rather defend and let his opponent miss. Yet, he knows how to forehand loop well, and it is pretty strong. It is just that he is too scared in a game to attack, afraid that he'd miss. I tell him that he's still developing, but I guess he's just a kid.

These people don't understand short term losses/long term gains. How do you convince them? Or should I just accept them as the way they are?
 
says what [IMG]
People like that are the kind of people who would eat the marshmallow.

I'm not sure if anything can be done, but do understand that it stems from wanting to feel good and think highly of yourself NOW, no matter how the future goes. They cannot see past their nose, in a sense.

Be it insecurity, ego, weak character in general, inexperience, whatever it is, you need to encourage them somehow. It's up to them to realize that short term uncomfortable feeling/long term gain is far superior to short term comfortable feeling/serious complications long term.


For the kid, it could just be insecurity. Growing up, I didn't really "buy into" the idea of doing shit now and feeling better in the future. I don't think a lot of kids did. Over time, I started believing it, though. Do some fun attacking drills that will get him comfortable and really hammer into his head that he's not gonna miss as long as he takes it easy. He doesn't trust his technique and so he wants to use something he does trust. It's all in the head: he can probably land shots fine and he WILL start landing them fine once it clicks in his head.

I can't say about adults, though. I don't exactly have experience.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,278
17,741
44,298
Read 17 reviews
I would argue that it is really more about changing from a results driven mindset to a mindset that rewards hard work and process mostly and results secondarily. Once you praise people too much for how well they do as opposed to how much effort they put in or how they do it, you are setting up a destructive cycle of image protection.
 
You guys may understand the importance of having fun in the process. If you are an amateur, it's not about winning a game or losing it how it was exposed, but it's about having fun in the process too and knowing your own limits.

For some people it doesn't matter if they are 1500 or 2500 since they know they are not going to beat Ma Long, so they play with the kind of equipment they find de game most enjoyable.

I got this same reply from two defensive players, one using LP and from a pretty good counter hitter that still plays with Srivers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel and pgpg
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Active Member
Mar 2013
910
1,174
2,593
Read 3 reviews
This feels like it could be a great thread. One to keep an eye on for sure.

A lot of this has to come from the player themselves. Some players just can't sink the time into redeveloping their games - life gets in the way for all sorts of reasons. And some simply don't want to - they're happy with their current level and don't want to progress because it represents something they don't like - increased level of competition can bring increased stress. Some people just enjoy playing the sport full stop, and progression to higher levels might be a bad personal move. I know a few players locally who turn down opportunities to have their teams promoted to a higher division because they know that they'll get battered every week, but lack the time or health to raise their game. The risk is that they would stop playing altogether if they were forced to play up.

I think the US system of ranking points, banded tournaments etc tends to highlight progression, or lack of, more keenly than less formal playing structures like local leagues. People say "you're 1500, but you could be 1800 if you just stopped messing around". But perhaps messing around is part of the overall package which is enjoyed.

Now, if someone says that they want to improve, and they're ready to sink time and effort into formal coaching and technique improvement, then that's something else. This tells you that they're already engaged with the idea of longer term goals. If they pair this with a demand for immediate results, then they could probably need a chat about short termism. Juniors are definitely ones to monitor. We have lost several promising junior players to other sports because they reach a good level amongst their peers (who all play a similar light topspin drive style game), but fall to pieces when they start to play senior league matches against choppers, or players with good serves. It's important that they understand that lack of experience is what matters in these situations and their initial individual results don't matter in comparison with the exposure they get. The really keen and switched on juniors will be open to training sessions against specific scenarios and styles.

Adults who say they want to improve and progress, but give up after hardly any effort because of poor initial results are simply undermining themselves. I think it's more than great to try to discuss issues like the short term mindset with them, but I think you also have to admit defeat in those situations where people don't want to listen. But if someone doesn't want to improve and is happy maintaining their current level, leave them be and be happy that they're happy.
 
This user has no status.
it's normal for kids to want to stay in the safe zone. a coach should steer them in the right direction either through explaining the correct mind set or having them train in a way that will make them more and more comfortable in using new elements in their game. preferably both.

if they don't have a coach their progress is already pretty much doomed.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,278
17,741
44,298
Read 17 reviews
You guys may understand the importance of having fun in the process. If you are an amateur, it's not about winning a game or losing it how it was exposed, but it's about having fun in the process too and knowing your own limits.

For some people it doesn't matter if they are 1500 or 2500 since they know they are not going to beat Ma Long, so they play with the kind of equipment they find de game most enjoyable.

I got this same reply from two defensive players, one using LP and from a pretty good counter hitter that still plays with Srivers.


One of the great things about TT is how so many people enjoy it no matter how bad or good they objectively are. Those of us who have pushed up the improvement cycle sometimes forget this. And we aren't professionals so enjoyment always comes first. So I think Andy's classification of the different audiences one is speaking to is helpful.
 
  • Like
Reactions: UpSideDownCarl
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,822
13,216
30,390
Read 27 reviews
I see a lot of stubbornness (Der_Echte goes to near top of list)

I agree that we all should play with what we like and how we like.

if our goals are to improve, then the mission is to enjoy table tennis and make strategic improvements with time. That involves learning what is ineffective and inconsistent. MANY different grips and play styles can be effective.

The things that do not change much with grips play styles (that can always be improved) are good stance low, on balance, reading teh ball, flexing knees on opponent impact, knowing the possible courses of the ball, (anticipation) effective footwork (slide, one step, two step, crossover, hop step) control of grip pressure, impacting ball within effective strike zone, control of placement, reading the spin and unconsciously calculating odds and selecting an effective shot, basic tactics, effective serves.

OK< I said enough to get the point across. I player can use the "Wrong" stuff or grip and still go places. Improving those few areas I mentioned can take a player places WELL above average level regardless of play style or grip.

I would focus encouragement on developing such things.

I see a lot of amature players at the two clubs I go to... at one club, a kid does ALL the above mentioned things you said all "wrong", but he is improving at half of the things I mentioned and he is now almost a half level better than the top end of average US club players only 1.5 yrs into the sport with no lessons. He reaches out with bad crip and bump blocks the ball back... good placement and change of spin/speed, catches some 2000+ players off guard often. Awkward player to face, gotta focus a lot and avid trouble spots, just like any other opponent's strengths.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,686
54,748
Read 11 reviews
Great idea for a thread David.

A few pieces of information and an idea.

Information first:

I am a process oriented person. I play games and matches but I think of them as training. Example. I was playing this guy over the weekend. Usually he wins. This is the first time I really dominated. I am sure it will go back and forth. I am okay with that. The first two games I used stuff I know he has trouble with. After that I just kept serving short backspin varying the amount, heavy to light, trying to get a push to open. It seemed like it worked every time that I got a push I could open and most of those points where I opened, I either won outright or controlled the point. On his serves, if I couldn't open, I pushed as short as I could and opened on his push.

Once I started focusing on the process opening first instead of thinking about the score and trying to win the point, I became more and more solid. But I also had much more fun playing.

And for the most part I would rather do game simulation training drills to work on technique than play matches. Training drills with enough of a random element to make it more like a match. I like the process of playing and working on things more than the feedback system of winning or losing.

A tiny bit more: I worked with two coaches over the weekend to treat myself as I have not worked with a coach in about a year. I have worked with both of these guys. They know my game and my level. They see me play pretty regularly: week in, week out. Both asked at the beginning of the session what I wanted to do. I told both, I wanted them to feel free to decide what I need to work on. Both asked enough questions to find out that I feel I need work on what happens in over the table play and in the first three balls. So, we did a lot of in out drills, multiball, serve receive and play out the point and me serving and responding to random placement pushes, long/short, left/right/middle. That mindset of wanting the expert to be able to have an opinion about what I need to work on is useful. Of course it is also useful to know what I need to work on for myself. The two together is valuable.

The people who are not process oriented, who do not want to work on their weaknesses or even perfect their strengths, you can often tell: they don't usually like warming up. They want to get to match play as fast as possible and often they don't want to do constructive drills at all. So, I believe it is a different mindset that allows someone to want to work on things and develop technique and improve and the mindset of someone who wants to "just play the game".

It is interesting that with many people, just playing often does cause a certain degree of improvement. But not to the degree where you would get to a very high level.

But here is an idea for you, David, for training your little brother.

1st game. Your brother starts with 5 points, he serves short backspin, you push long, he has to loop. If he loops successfully, he gets a point. If he misses or fails to loop, he looses a point. If he gets to ten points, he wins. If he drops to 0 points he loses. So the first game includes a reward for looping and a "punishment" for failing to loop. If he pushes your push he loses a point.

That will build his instinct to loop the pushes. And at a certain point it will become automatic.

To make the game harder you start varying the placement of the pushes or giving him slightly harder pushes. But you want him to succeed before you make it harder and you slowly progress the skill level as he is ready.

The next game is for when the first game is too easy. Which hopefully will happen fairly fast:

This time you set up something like straws or string on the table you make a line with the straws near each corner and two lines near the middle.

Here is a drawing of how you set the lines:

2bf08ef33fc20c4767c77edc14629f96.jpg


The red lines are the straws or string. Straws are easy and work well because, when you hit the straws they move.

So the game is almost the same. But when your brother loops, he has to get it between the straws and the side lines or between the middle lines. So building the instinct for middle (switching point) or wide angle.

If he loops successfully but it is not in one of the target areas he does not win or lose a point. If he misses or fails to attack, he loses a point. If he hits one of the target areas he gets a point. Just like in the first game, he starts with 5 points. He wins when he hits 10. He loses if he hits 0.

So you build the instincts of third ball attack into the game system where pushing would automatically lose him the point. And, the truth is, at some point it surely will. [emoji2]

The game came from Damien Provost.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2016
469
738
1,403
Thanks for the ideas guys!

If you look at my playstyle thread, I am a process oriented person; I focus on improvement (gotta go work on backhand flipping). I wish they too adopted the mindset.

One problem that I see with my little brother and my older sister is that they easily get frustrated with they miss. (I see missing as an inevitable side effect of improving, because you have to push your limits and push what your body knows how to do.)

I don't know how to convince them to practice these kinds of drills (bribe them with chocolate?). My sister (age 18) probably would straight out say no, but I've convinced her to practice before, so it's not impossible for me to persuade her. As for my little brother(age 12), he does practice with me, knowing that he needs to improve. However, after misses a bunch of shots in a row, he would get irritated and be in a foul mood. If he continues to miss, he just refuses to play and is in a foul mood for a while.


I feel like the source of the issue is the fear of missing.
How should I change how they view missing? Also, how should I convince them effectively to continue practicing?
 
Last edited:
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,686
54,748
Read 11 reviews
I will deal with your brother because it sounds like he has promise.

2 ideas:

1) Make the drills easy enough for him to make most of the shots and win most of the time and, as he is in a groove you slowly increase the difficulty so that he doesn't even notice it. If he misses 2 in a row, you make it enough easier that he makes the next. This means you need to make your pushes easy enough so he makes most of them and as he gains confidence you make the pushes lower, then when that gets solid, you add some extra spin, then when low with moderate spin becomes solid you make them a little faster. But you progress only to where he can still make 75% or more.

2) Make sure he knows when he missed but did it right or well, that even though he missed, he did something better than those shots where the ball went on but he didn't spin well or did something else wrong. So that there is some kind of reward for the right technique even when the ball does not go on.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,686
54,748
Read 11 reviews
Changing grip is a big emotional thing for most people. It is something the person has to decide they really want to do and then they have to commit to it. I have made several grip changes to try a Dd find something that really works for me. If you don't have some method for changing and keeping the change it is a bit like torture to try. I had a method: my ball bounce:


Something like that and then a robot, can help you with a grip change. But you can't make a change like that without really dedicating yourself to learning the change and feeling awkward and like a spaz until your body understands the change.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2010
3,779
4,569
16,162
Knowing that you are out and out aggressive player David, this might help you improve your touch on the push as well :)
I will deal with your brother because it sounds like he has promise.

2 ideas:

1) Make the drills easy enough for him to make most of the shots and win most of the time and, as he is in a groove you slowly increase the difficulty so that he doesn't even notice it. If he misses 2 in a row, you make it enough easier that he makes the next. This means you need to make your pushes easy enough so he makes most of them and as he gains confidence you make the pushes lower, then when that gets solid, you add some extra spin, then when low with moderate spin becomes solid you make them a little faster. But you progress only to where he can still make 75% or more.

2) Make sure he knows when he missed but did it right or well, that even though he missed, he did something better than those shots where the ball went on but he didn't spin well or did something else wrong. So that there is some kind of reward for the right technique even when the ball does not go on.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2016
469
738
1,403
Thanks! I'm reading all of your suggestions. I'll try this one next time. I'll let you know how it goes.

I will deal with your brother because it sounds like he has promise.

2 ideas:

1) Make the drills easy enough for him to make most of the shots and win most of the time and, as he is in a groove you slowly increase the difficulty so that he doesn't even notice it. If he misses 2 in a row, you make it enough easier that he makes the next. This means you need to make your pushes easy enough so he makes most of them and as he gains confidence you make the pushes lower, then when that gets solid, you add some extra spin, then when low with moderate spin becomes solid you make them a little faster. But you progress only to where he can still make 75% or more.

2) Make sure he knows when he missed but did it right or well, that even though he missed, he did something better than those shots where the ball went on but he didn't spin well or did something else wrong. So that there is some kind of reward for the right technique even when the ball does not go on.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: UpSideDownCarl
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Jan 2016
469
738
1,403
Knowing that you are out and out aggressive player David, this might help you improve your touch on the push as well :)

Actually, because I short push a lot, my touch is there. But I guess I'll practice the long ones too.

I don't want end up creating a habit of low quality pushes. Matt Hetherington told me that being a coach makes you worse as a player, since you're giving easy balls to students all the time without moving your feet, and those habits creep into your gameplay.
 
Last edited:
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Dec 2010
3,779
4,569
16,162
Good point David.
Actually, because I short push a lot, my touch is there. But I guess I'll practice the long ones too.

I don't want end up creating a habit of low quality pushes. Matt Hetherington told me that being a coach makes you worse as a player, since you're giving easy balls to students all the time without moving your feet, and those habits creep into your gameplay.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NextLevel
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,686
54,748
Read 11 reviews
Yep. Something to watch out for. You have to limit you're time helping people lower level if you want to keep progressing. Because you do have to figure out how to take spin off all your shots when helping someone 1000 points lower than you.

And it would really be hard to get to just under 2100 without good touch.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
Last edited:
Top