The big struggle

Tonight I got schooled badly by one of the top five players from my club. The 3×0 was expected, but not the way I felt helpless against him.

The player was just hitting everything right after the bounce really fast and low and I just couldn't get any rhythm, I felt like the ball was back at my side of the table right after I hit it.

How do you guys play this kind of opponent?

I got most of my points on 3rd ball attacks or an eventual opportunity I had to loop.
 
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A video would be great :)

So with hitting do you mean counter hits and blocks? Strokes without alot of spin?

You got most of your points on third ball attacks, those points are the ones where you have full control over the ball.

Hitters rely on their speed to disrupt your rythm and give them easy balls. So you need to generate a situation where you are in control of spin, speed and placement.
A good method to get in control is to slow down the game. One way to do that is by stepping back from the table and changing the trajectory of the ball.
What you dont want to do is just loop every ball back the same way.

Tell us more about your game, what are your thirdball attack tactics? What are your strengths? Weaknesses?
 
He had an unorthodox somewhat short stroke, was always close to the table punch blocking or counter hitting any ball quickly or flicking when I tried do play the short game. His balls where usually low and fast. I really couldn't get any rhythm, there were no time to make anything and the ball was coming back, I didn't even had time to step back to be in more comfortable position in time and just couldn't keep the pace to trade balls with him close to the table.

The final score wasn't that loopsided because I could do well with my own serve, but I felt helpless against him doing anything else and I'm not used to this style to find aswers.
 
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It seems that this guy was able to put you under pressure. But if you'd put him under pressure yourslef, the quality of his shots whould go down dramatically and he wouldn't be able to do whatever he wants. A way to do this is to discover what your opponent doesn't like: a specific placement, spin or pace. It is also useful to analyze your service and receive. Do they limit your opponent's possibilities to attack? Does your first attack make your opponent uncomfortable enough? If not, you have to find a solution. Easier said than done, as always :)
 
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I can only assume and imagine, but the way you describe it, loosing the points too early, it's obvious he's much better in serves and receives. That is what you need to improve in the first place. Try to serve mostly short with heavy backspin. Short receives may also work and also agressive receives may work. Generally, don't let him find his rythm, try to slow the game down and apply heavy spin, backspin (serves, pushes) or topspin (loops).
In addition to tactics, work on your mentality. Don't get frustrated, don't get discouraged, stay sharp and fight every point. Sometimes we just only need to land one more ball on the table to win the point.
Finally, try to play this guy (and any guy that gives you a hard time) as often as possible.
 
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Try aggressive heavy backspin pushes to his body or where you see a weak spot. Then attack his return.

That may be an option, looping to his body was one of the only things that earned me some points outside the 3rd ball attacks, maybe pushing to his body could give me some time.
 
It seems that this guy was able to put you under pressure. But if you'd put him under pressure yourslef, the quality of his shots whould go down dramatically and he wouldn't be able to do whatever he wants.

That was pretty much the history, but the problem was not just being under pressure, it was about how much I felt under pressure like if I couldn't even breath.

I could 3rd ball kill and when I was able to loop to his body I got enough time to prepare the next attack, but he was counter hitting fast almost everything else right after the bounce with the ball coming back fast and low. Hitting the ball after the bounce with consistency and good placement he took me completely out of my game.

I lost another game to the best player from my club and the final score was almost the same, but the game was played, he won because he is better and more consistent and that is OK, everybody loses games like this, the problem is when you feel like you can't win a point if you don't kill it with your first attack :-(
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
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Table tennis is a complex sport/game. When someone is a decent amount better than you they can make you feel inept and out of control.

There are many times when a better opponent isn't even trying hard and gives you what seem like they should be easy shots. And you keep messing up on balls where you misjudge the difficulty level.

Sometimes when you play a player several levels higher they don't try very hard and you feel as though you play them close. Then you play someone close to your level, maybe one level above or even a half level above and they are playing as hard as they can because they can't play around with you the same way. And they give you one of those beatings you are talking about where you feel helpless and inept.

It is okay that this happens. Don't worry to much about it. If this player is one or two skill levels higher than you than, the more you play him, the more you will reset faster and be more ready for how he was pushing your timing and reset by taking the ball early.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus
 
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Table tennis is a complex sport/game. When someone is a decent amount better than you they can make you feel inept and out of control.

There are many times when a better opponent isn't even trying hard and gives you what seem like they should be easy shots. And you keep messing up on balls where you misjudge the difficulty level.

Sometimes when you play a player several levels higher they don't try very hard and you feel as though you play them close. Then you play someone close to your level, maybe one level above or even a half level above and they are playing as hard as they can because they can't play around with you the same way. And they give you one of those beatings you are talking about where you feel helpless and inept.

It is okay that this happens. Don't worry to much about it. If this player is one or two skill levels higher than you than, the more you play him, the more you will reset faster and be more ready for how he was pushing your timing and reset by taking the ball early.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Sure Carl.

I know I'm not on his level, but I'm a competitive guy and I try to understand what I can do to play better against some stiles while I keep improving my own game. Strategy plays a role in this game and you try to find ways to reduce the gap between you and a better player. In this case I just felt helpless because at this stage I can't keep his pace and I just didn't find answers o play against someone with an stile a bit uncommon like him.

I don't mind losing, the goal is keep improving and most loses use to teach you something, what got me this time was how I just couldn't keep the pace or find any answers.
 
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Samson Dubina wrote a blog post recently that seemed like a direct response to a thread that David Song started here. While we dealt mostly on cognitive skills and anticipation, Dubina argued (quite correctly as I have said similar things in the past under the influence of the coach that got me to my first 2000 level ) that the first step is ball quality. The quality of the ball you hit is the first thing that limits the options of your opponent and it is this that first and foremost feeds anticipation. So when you think about your match, think in terms of the quality of the ball. One of the things I have noticed when loopers play hitters/blockers is that some loopers do not spend enough time finding their ideal rally distance. They play too close to the table given the blocker's speed and are not getting powerful returns back. They then wonder why the blocker can counter everything and it is in part because you are not loading up the ball. This advice goes both ways. A topspin blocker might not be getting effective shots because he is too close to put good power into his blocks. So always look at whether your playing distance allows you to play good strokes.

If someone is hitting off the bounce, are they generatin their spin or more likely borrowing yours? If you have versatile playing styles and can reduce your spin, this may be another way to play.

Another question is how well they open off backspin. Some players are very good vs topspin but very poor vs backspin. So you have to push more than you may want to in order to avoid giving them easy counters. You have to be selective about what you attack and you may find that slow heavy topspin is more effective than fast topspin opening. So you want to load up the backspin before opening.

Last thing is that it pays to play go the middle of the table or mostly crosscourt vs blockers. Going down the line leads to changes that may not benefit you unless you know their hitting patterns.
 
One of the things I have noticed when loopers play hitters/blockers is that some loopers do not spend enough time finding their ideal rally distance. They play too close to the table given the blocker's speed and are not getting powerful returns back. ... So always look at whether your playing distance allows you to play good strokes.

If someone is hitting off the bounce, are they generatin their spin or more likely borrowing yours? If you have versatile playing styles and can reduce your spin, this may be another way to play.

That may be the point. Being unable to keep the pace with this guy close to the table I could maybe buy some time getting further away from the table. I know I would still lose because he is a better player than I am but it's good when you feel like you can stand a chance against someone.

I've tried to slow down the game with backspin, but the guy is a good player and his unorthodox strokes also gave me problem because he was able to generate good spin and speed without the usual stroke preparation, kinda that guy you posted a video last week with unusual, but efetive game.
 
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Had another session today, not so long because my elbow is hurting and I have to be caution with that because it took me more than 3 months to real the same thing in the past, but talking with guys on the club they just told me to stay cool because outside the top five guys of our club everybody struggles against this guy. I got the tip to avoid his backhand, let's try it the next time. Just like NextLevel our coach told me to play away from the table but being prepared to move my feet a lot :)

Thank you all about the tips
 
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I (maybe we) don't really know how good you are, so we can't really give specific advice on your game.

I notice in some earlier posts that people are suggesting that you find a weakness in an opponent. The thing is, better players usually don't have glaringly big weaknesses. Also, weaker players might not have to skills to take advantage of a weakness.


As for the pressure, try to force your opponent to make shots that you are familiar with. For example, if you can force your opponent to push or block, that could be a good idea. The easiest way to do this is to have good serve and service return. You might want to start attacking serves, so you can prevent your opponent's third ball. Don't let your opponent attack your serve.
You might not be playing ideally, so practice doing so.

You said your opponent stands close to the table. The best way to counter this is to play deep into the table and ideally, fast. For example, push long and fast. You can also loop deep and high to his forehand if you want. If you can, loop fast and deep. Also, serve long heavy underspin.
However, this is easier said than done. You have to practice.

Tell me more about your opponent. Is he/she strong with both forehand and backhand? If not, try playing to his angles on his third ball and your third ball. Again, this is actually much harder than it sounds.

I can't really imagine someone with bad technique that is good at short ball, so short ball is probably a weakness. However, your short game might be too high. You may need to work on it. Practice.

If his shots are low, then that means he is a good player. Get lower, bend your knees, lean forward.

@NextLevel are you talking about this? http://www.samsondubina.com/coaching/2200-vs-2600
 
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A player can lose against another player for a variety of reasons. However, if you are playing against a player who is at a far higher level than you, it is unlikely that any strategy you employ will be effective, due to the difference in playing standard. And I think that it is the point that everyone is trying to make.

Usually, when your opponent is at the same level as you (or even slightly better), the major factor that decides the outcome of the match is the strategy used and its strengths/flaws. People at the same level will tend to have a similar level of consistency, and therefore a difference in consistency normally isn't a problem. Of course there can be variations attributed to certain play styles and player match-ups, but the player with the better strategy is the one that will generally win.

When playing someone at a lower level than you, you can often just let them make the mistakes, be it forced or unforced. Why? Because your consistency is far higher than theirs. Knowing this, any given point based on consistency or safe plays will result in the higher level player winning the point, simply because they tend to get more balls on the table.

Similarly, when playing someone at a higher level, given a usual set of points played with a certain amount of safety, they are almost destined to win, simply because they are more consistent. At this point, the only way to win while playing safe/consistent is to completely outsmart your opponent while playing at a very high standard. This can boost your chance of winning, but that means you must render their tactics almost worthless and play at least at their level, which is very hard to do, even against someone of your own standard.

So now you may be thinking that there is no way to win or even put up a decent fight for that matter. But that is not true. The real only way to rival someone better than you is to take risks. Allow me to elaborate.

Let's say your chance of winning any given point is 1 in 3 (or 30%). Let's throw in a risky play, and the chance of winning the point becomes higher but simultaneously lowers it. Let's say then it becomes a 50/50 play, because the chance of it succeeding are low but the chance of winning the point if it succeeds are high. This is one of the only ways to put up a fight against a better player; by taking risks. More risk, more reward.

And this isn't just me running my mouth (for once). A lot of people agree that playing aggressively when you're down is essential, and that it is pointless to play safe. In this interview: http://www.masatenisi.org/english/roportaj5.htm
Liu Guoliang said:

''When you are behind, then it is no good to play safe, since if you exchange points with your opponent you would still lose. That is when you need to be more aggressive.''

Essentially, aggressive plays with higher risks are needed when playing someone better than you. You need to attack first and put as much pressure as you can on them. Making long serves and risky third balls is a way to do this. I think a good example was Werner Schlager vs Ma Long in this match. Werner Schlager serves long and goes for all or nothing, knowing that playing any other way isn't as good and this is his only viable way to stand a chance.


It is also important to have lots of variation and to try and adjust your tactics accordingly. Use everything you have at your disposal. Playing aggressively also gives them more to worry about. The fact that your fast loop just barely went out and went right past them is a little bit more worrying then a simple push that went into the net, or a high ball that granted them the ability to smack it right past you.

Simply put, stay aggressive and take risks. Playing safe and consistent is an aspect of the game that a more advanced player will simply outclass you in; and will most likely not yield any positive results.

 
Very good interview, you don't need to wonder why he is a top coach now.

I found some good tips in this old thread too

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/f...478-Tips-for-playing-counter-hitters-blockers

Next time I'll try to play further away from the table varying the amount of spin on loops and avoiding opening on his backhand where he has outstanding control starting over his FH where his returns are more predictable trying to make him move his feet opening his backhand. I should still lose it because he is a better player, I just want to feel like I'll be doing something that will give me the chance to win most points if well executed.

I'm working hard on my returns with the goal to be able to take the initiative early and I'm sure it will pay dividends in the future. My serves are one step above my overall level, I'm very confident that I'm going to score four or five points on 3rd or 5th ball kills and an eventual free point.
 
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