PDA

View Full Version : why P balls are about twice as expensive ?



violoniste18
06-26-2016, 07:54 AM
In France, we are gonna play with P ball at september, so I take a look about prices ... I am very surprised about the price increase

Do you know why ?

Tinykin
06-26-2016, 08:21 AM
Capitalism, Cost of doing business, cost of production, cost of distribution, greed, profit taking, opportunism. Take your pick.

violoniste18
06-26-2016, 09:38 AM
Take your pick.

i like it !

I am welcome to capitalism world I guess ...

P ball is a great idea from ittf, then table tennis will develop more and more in poor countries

Archosaurus
06-26-2016, 09:41 AM
"Because screw you." - ITTF

Baal
06-26-2016, 01:23 PM
In France, we are gonna play with P ball at september, so I take a look about prices ... I am very surprised about the price increase

Do you know why ?

Wait until you try to play with the Chinese seamed balls. Then you will feel truly screwed.

The seamless balls and the Nittaku Japan Premium 40+ are ok. But for some reason, and I really don't understand why, European leagues have had a tendency to choose to use European branded balls that are actually plastic seamed balls made in China by either DHS or Double Fish. They are not just expensive, they are horrible in every way.

Maybe your clubs and leagues will avoid them, probably they won't.

By the way, that choice is not the only one they have. Joola for sure markets a seamless ball that is not bad, in addition to the horrible Chinese seamed ones. Not only do the seamless balls play better, they last longer too, and a higher percentage are round, so for a club it is a better economic decision.

I have tried most of the balls on the market and have been playing exclusively with plastic for 2 years now. PM me if you have questions.

violoniste18
06-26-2016, 02:10 PM
thanks baal, your advices will be useful to choose.

I guess first be playing at home with C-ball, since I got about 200 ball for training services, a bit robot and playing with my young son (he's nine). Turn to P ball, it will be later on, since training ball are too expensive. And In France, competition balls are free during matchs

Der_Echte
06-26-2016, 02:57 PM
Playing with seamless poly balls saves money, they last way longer. I would go through a 6 pack of quality 3 star cell balls in under two weeks. If I got 1st or 2nd in a club tourney I always traded for balls.

A 6er pack of seamless poly balls last me more than a couple months.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Archosaurus
06-26-2016, 03:10 PM
Playing with seamless poly balls saves money, they last way longer. I would go through a 6 pack of quality 3 star cell balls in under two weeks. If I got 1st or 2nd in a club tourney I always traded for balls.

A 6er pack of seamless poly balls last me more than a couple months.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Back when I used to mash the ball hard, balls broke all the time. Nowadays it feels rare for a cell ball to break for me.

Maybe you're just unleashing too much whoop ass for your own economic good? :p

ttmonster
06-26-2016, 06:33 PM
Which seamless balls are you using Der_Echte ? I can't seem to play with anything other than Nittaku 40+

Playing with seamless poly balls saves money, they last way longer. I would go through a 6 pack of quality 3 star cell balls in under two weeks. If I got 1st or 2nd in a club tourney I always traded for balls.

A 6er pack of seamless poly balls last me more than a couple months.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Baal
06-26-2016, 06:42 PM
You should probably be able to find Joola and Tibhar brands of seamless balls in France for example below:

http://www.tabletennis11.fr/balle-de-ping-pong/balles-plastiques-tennis-de-table

I see they have Joola Flash 40+, also Xu Shao Fa, Schildkrott, and Xiom, all of which are seamless, good, and more or less the same. You can click the link where it says seamless for all their offers. They also have the very good Nittaku plastic balls (my favorites for playing characteristics). If you decide to buy Nittaku, make sure to NOT buy Nittaku SHA plastic (those are crappy Chinese balls).

The good Nittaku 40+ balls are called "premium" and they are made in Japan. These: http://www.tabletennis11.fr/nittaku-premium-40-3-ittf-3pcs-seam

At all costs avoid DHS or any other non-Nittaku plastic ball with a seam.

Baal
06-26-2016, 06:47 PM
One thing I forgot, though. The seamless training balls I have seen are really terrible and almost unplayable. Avoid them. You would be better off buying regular 3-star seamless balls (like Xu Shao Fa) in bulk and using them for training. You will lose your balls before you break them.

ttmonster
06-26-2016, 07:49 PM
Somehow I don't like XSF because its keeps jumping like a spring chicken compared to Nittaku , the speed and the bounce is very different , anyways that is the way it is ... I spent a fortune buying 3 dozen Nittaku Premium 40+ when paddle palace had it for 28 and some change ...

One thing I forgot, though. The seamless training balls I have seen are really terrible and almost unplayable. Avoid them. You would be better off buying regular 3-star seamless balls (like Xu Shao Fa) in bulk and using them for training. You will lose your balls before you break them.

violoniste18
06-26-2016, 08:21 PM
old training celluloid balls were very good, I got 200 balls "double circle" for about 50 € et now I have to buy 3 stars balls in order to get same quality ... Then I should have to spend about 300 € for 200 balls !!! not once, not twice but six ...

War will begin at September in France about balls, for sure small clubs will stop table tennis, according to that incredible price increase

violoniste18
06-26-2016, 08:26 PM
what do you think about it ? : http://www.tabletennis11.fr/xiom-pro-training-40-120-pcs-white

or it : http://www.tabletennis11.fr/schildkrot-40-seamless-120pcs

Boogar
06-26-2016, 09:00 PM
If i were you violoniste18... i would just buy celluoid balls.
If you are just starting to play, dont bother with those stupid plastic balls.
At our clubs we use only plastic balls and they break all the time... its ridiculous.

If im playing outdoors im using my old dhs * celluoid balls.
They are much cheaper and better.

Der_Echte
06-26-2016, 10:54 PM
Monster, I use Nexy *** of course. Since i get a good supply of them, why not?

I have sold six packs to club members who play 3 times a week. I sold a pack of balls to a guy who plays only with the heavy/solid Nexy ball and that was 4 moths ago. He is on his second ball of the pack.

I have to hit one on the roof of the bathroom or step on one to break one, only occasional hit on side breaks it. 3 Nexy balls last me a couple months, stepped ball and all. I play 4-5 times a week here.

XSF has a true bounce, but they feel a little too soft/not solid heavy for my liking.

Der_Echte
06-26-2016, 10:57 PM
Baal hit the head of the nail with a 16lb sledge hammer.

Seamless training balls for the most part are garbage. XSF makes our poly ball, but we wont sell the one star version, the QC is horrendous on those. One star poly ball equals MINUS 6 stars for real.

Tinykin
06-26-2016, 11:01 PM
XSF has a true bounce? We must have different batches or something.
The only P-ball with a true bounce or bounce that is consistent similar to the C-ball is the Nittaku premium.
Every other ball that I have tried has a relatively inconsistent bounce.

Boogar
06-26-2016, 11:04 PM
The XSF ball is tried *** btw... were rly inconsistent and bounced rly strange.

ttmonster
06-26-2016, 11:52 PM
I did not play it with enough to convincingly say they are inconsistent , what I felt was very awkward , almost like its an impatient little thing that wants to hop around like a rabbit :) , I don't know how I can explain it better .... almost like the cheap hard plastic balls you would get with recreational paddles which were thing and used to go "ping" every time you hit them....

The XSF ball is tried *** btw... were rly inconsistent and bounced rly strange.

ttmonster
06-26-2016, 11:52 PM
Der_echte , may be Nexy has put its own quality control clauses on top of XSF and thats the reason you are getting the better XSF balls ...

Baal hit the head of the nail with a 16lb sledge hammer.

Seamless training balls for the most part are garbage. XSF makes our poly ball, but we wont sell the one star version, the QC is horrendous on those. One star poly ball equals MINUS 6 stars for real.

Der_Echte
06-27-2016, 12:57 AM
The tourney quality formula and qc is good... but one star practice balls seamless poly are crap no matter who checks.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Baal
06-27-2016, 12:58 AM
XSF has a true bounce? We must have different batches or something.
The only P-ball with a true bounce or bounce that is consistent similar to the C-ball is the Nittaku premium.
Every other ball that I have tried has a relatively inconsistent bounce.

I have had many batches of XSF, in fact I was possibly the first person on English language table tennis forums to strongly advocate for their use (against considerable skepticism). Some recent batches if XSF balls have had some complaints about roundness. This was not a problem with XSF balls made in the first half of 2015. However, I have not heard a complaint about any other brand of seamless ball. My impression is that there is a QC issue in which XSF has accepted some substandard balls lately (late 2015 and early 2016) and decided to sell them as 3-star. Greed. Shame on them.

However, I have not heard or experienced anything like that from one of other brands of seamless balls.

So if you are in doubt, avoid XSF and simply buy one of the many other versions of seamless balls, like Xiom, Nexy, Kingnik, Joola, Yinhe, etc. etc. There are now many brands to choose from. I suspect each company can set their own QC specifications with the factory that makes them. For a variety of reasons too obscure to go into here, I have some reason to believe that there now may be two different factories making the seamless balls.

Seamless does not bounce or fly through the air exactly like celluloid or like Nittaku Premium. There is no question about that. (Actually it bounces a touch higher and seems to me to play a bit slower). But it wears substantially longer (on average) and is quite a bit cheaper.

Personally, I prefer playing with the Nittaku balls BUT if price is an issue, the question then becomes what is the best overall price/quality ratio. If you look at that, and consider average durability as important, then good seamless balls win hands down. Bear in mind, you have to buy the three-star versions. The "training ball" versions are awful.

I use XSF balls for training out of a bucket. I play matches and free play with the Nittaku.

ttmonster
06-27-2016, 03:06 AM
Thanks Baal for the clear and concise write up , this should settle the debate with conviction once and for all ...

I have had many batches of XSF, in fact I was possibly the first person on English language table tennis forums to strongly advocate for their use (against considerable skepticism). Some recent batches if XSF balls have had some complaints about roundness. This was not a problem with XSF balls made in the first half of 2015. However, I have not heard a complaint about any other brand of seamless ball. My impression is that there is a QC issue in which XSF has accepted some substandard balls lately (late 2015 and early 2016) and decided to sell them as 3-star. Greed. Shame on them.

However, I have not heard or experienced anything like that from one of other brands of seamless balls.

So if you are in doubt, avoid XSF and simply buy one of the many other versions of seamless balls, like Xiom, Nexy, Kingnik, Joola, Yinhe, etc. etc. There are now many brands to choose from. I suspect each company can set their own QC specifications with the factory that makes them. For a variety of reasons too obscure to go into here, I have some reason to believe that there now may be two different factories making the seamless balls.

Seamless does not bounce or fly through the air exactly like celluloid or like Nittaku Premium. There is no question about that. (Actually it bounces a touch higher and seems to me to play a bit slower). But it wears substantially longer (on average) and is quite a bit cheaper.

Personally, I prefer playing with the Nittaku balls BUT if price is an issue, the question then becomes what is the best overall price/quality ratio. If you look at that, and consider average durability as important, then good seamless balls win hands down. Bear in mind, you have to buy the three-star versions. The "training ball" versions are awful.

I use XSF balls for training out of a bucket. I play matches and free play with the Nittaku.

laistrogian
06-27-2016, 03:07 AM
While i like XSF, my rule of thumb with my friend who also loop hard is after 2 edges, it'll break.

I usually buy XSF but decided to screw it and just buy a dozen nittaku premium

violoniste18
06-27-2016, 08:03 PM
As I understand it, At your clubs, you play only 3 stars balls at training ?

In France, we use a lot of ball for training, it's impossible to get only 3 stars balls ! For example, at my club, we used about 3000 balls for a year ...

I hope trainings ball will improve a lot in future, otherwise table tennis will decline thanks to that decision from ittf

I play in competition, I am number 3 in my departement with my category "vétéran 2" ( I am 57), in France there is about 100.000 players doing competitions

Baal
06-27-2016, 08:41 PM
At my club we typically use 3-star for training, but the club doesn't supply them. We supply our own balls (which I think is pretty common in North America).

I think you might be better off using celluloid than trying to train with the 1-star seamless.

I found the Nittaku 2-star Japan training balls to be ok, but they are not all that cheap.

Shuki
06-27-2016, 10:05 PM
My conspiracy theory: they have the technology to make better training balls.

But why release them when they have so much overstock of the crap ones still.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Baal
06-27-2016, 10:07 PM
My conspiracy theory: they have the technology to make better training balls.

But why release them when they have so much overstock of the crap ones still.




Yes. Probably true.

Shuki
06-28-2016, 02:16 AM
Okay after quite a bit of research I've yet to find any information on the MASTER QUALITY BALL G40+ has anyone tried them or found a review of them? Or must I be the first to buy a batch.

violoniste18
06-28-2016, 07:59 PM
I think you might be better off using celluloid than trying to train with the 1-star seamless.


it sounds like this fot the moment ...

Baal
06-29-2016, 01:04 AM
Okay after quite a bit of research I've yet to find any information on the MASTER QUALITY BALL G40+ has anyone tried them or found a review of them? Or must I be the first to buy a batch.

After the first batch I bought, I have no interest in buying something that is now suddently "Master Quality". At that price, the first batch should have been.

So you go first! :D

Shuki
06-29-2016, 03:06 AM
I'll buy them. We hate the poly balls my coach uses anyway. Just waiting on butterfly to email me back about my discount. Since they're guaranteed to price match anywhere that a legitimate butterfly product is sold, and then give an additional 10% on that difference.

I'm lucky enough to have access to a site like this...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

violoniste18
06-29-2016, 10:10 AM
how are you doing for training with a lot of balls ? "basket of balls" in french , 3 stars ?

Baal
06-29-2016, 01:37 PM
I bought a bunch of 3-star XSF balls for my bucket about 8 months ago, 144 balls. I occasionally step on one or lose one. And I buy Nittaku as needed. Several other people at my club bought balls for their buckets also. Most people are using seamless for that, one poor soul bought Joola seamed balls.

violoniste18
06-29-2016, 04:33 PM
thanks baal,

I am still hesitant, according to that price increase,

I should have thus to spend 240 € instead of about 40 € for 144 celluloid balls for training ...

It will be a big anarchy in september in France during competitions (decision has just released, a lot of players are in holidays on the side of table tennis and don't know about it and will learn it in septembre, just before recovery)

violoniste18
06-29-2016, 08:06 PM
has anybody tried those balls : http://www.wacksport.fr/catalogue/?todo=aff_items&grp=510706

"DONIC COACH" I am searching for training balls and on the french forum, there are many players who are doing the same thing ...

yes baal; I am still hesitant between plastic and celluloid for training balls, I have heard about rebound very different

Tinykin
06-29-2016, 10:11 PM
I played a summer league team match last night using XSF balls. We changed the match ball twice before we found one that had any sort of decent bounce. I think that Nexy must have some arrangement with XSF to get balls manufactured with stricter QC. The fact that we got one that was way better than the first 2 shows that XSF can supply better quality balls if it wants to.