Fundamentals of shakehand vs penhold grip

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Hey.

What are the important points to consider for a penhold grip compared to a shakehand grip?

How important is the wrapping of the thumb and index? How does it effect the stroke? What about the other fingers: can you for example RPB with straight fingers or is there a definite reason why it's bad? What would be a BAD example of a penhold grip? How do you apply pressure with the fingers to go into the backhand vs how you do it with shakehand? etc.

This isn't a "teach me penhold" thread, more so a technical discussion, so give me whatever you got.
 
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Penhold is how you hold the pen and shakehand is how you shake the hand after signing off from penhold with wrist pain :p

Hey.

What are the important points to consider for a penhold grip compared to a shakehand grip?

How important is the wrapping of the thumb and index? How does it effect the stroke? What about the other fingers: can you for example RPB with straight fingers or is there a definite reason why it's bad? What would be a BAD example of a penhold grip? How do you apply pressure with the fingers to go into the backhand vs how you do it with shakehand? etc.

This isn't a "teach me penhold" thread, more so a technical discussion, so give me whatever you got.
 
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Penhold is how you hold the pen and shakehand is how you shake the hand after signing off from penhold with wrist pain :p
I know the feeling.

Wang Hao's instructional that Boogar linked mentions the wrist on RPB at least: don't use it.

When I was mucking around with RPB, I was using the wrist like crazy on backhands and near damn had to hospitalize my hand. Other than that, slight finger and hand pain after long hours of playing.

That can probably be fixed with conditioning and a lighter blade but I'm pretty sure it also has to do with how well your hand and fingers have adapted to the grip. Holding the bat with penhold in my left hand is absolute torture while it feels natural with the right.

Now, I don't know exactly how much of that is BS or not, thus this thread.
 
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I can only tell you based on what I have seen but not experienced. I had a practice partner in my old office , who use to play RPB and was pretty good with it ( around 2100 or so ) , who had to complete rebuild his game from scratch after damaging his wrist permamently. He had to take multiple medical advise , accupuncture etc. , first put long pips on the backhand and even now , when he loops with his shakehand grip , he does not use any wrist , almost consciously.
So my thought is, don't muck around with RPB unless you have a coach ..

I know the feeling.

Wang Hao's instructional that Boogar linked mentions the wrist on RPB at least: don't use it.

When I was mucking around with RPB, I was using the wrist like crazy on backhands and near damn had to hospitalize my hand. Other than that, slight finger and hand pain after long hours of playing.

That can probably be fixed with conditioning and a lighter blade but I'm pretty sure it also has to do with how well your hand and fingers have adapted to the grip. Holding the bat with penhold in my left hand is absolute torture while it feels natural with the right.

Now, I don't know exactly how much of that is BS or not, thus this thread.
 
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I can only tell you based on what I have seen but not experienced. I had a practice partner in my old office , who use to play RPB and was pretty good with it ( around 2100 or so ) , who had to complete rebuild his game from scratch after damaging his wrist permamently. He had to take multiple medical advise , accupuncture etc. , first put long pips on the backhand and even now , when he loops with his shakehand grip , he does not use any wrist , almost consciously.
So my thought is, don't muck around with RPB unless you have a coach ..

Hmm. Did he never report any uncomfortable feelings or pain?
 
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But honestly speaking, what I have noticed is , unless you have a coach who has played RPB , its not as easy as it seems when you pick up the paddle and hit some backhands and they land on the table... there is more to it than meets the eye ... hence its best if you can find somebody who plays RPB and has learnt the proper way to do it , to show you the ropes . Why else do you think there are only so few RPB pros ?
No no it was not sudden, he would have the pain , either he would ignore it ... or he would give it some rest and when it subsided get back to it ...
 
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I will keep it in mind. If I get any pain when mucking around, it's time to stop completely. I've long known the dangers of RPB so I've been VERY anal in how I do the strokes and how stressed my arm is. My penhold form is better than my shakehand form, hah. In the beginning I had somewhat tight fingers and wrist, so I stopped until I could hold the shakehand relaxed. Now I can hold RPB very relaxed as well.


I understand what you mean about the backhands. I can't fade balls as well as I can with shakehand. I think if one was to learn it, it'd be a real weapon.
 
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I used to play pelhold for 2 years about, and in competition. I never got pain nor wrist injury. One have to get a very relaxed grip, otherwise forget that grip ...

the big problem is mainly about backhand, rpb is the way if you start penhold as adult, for traditionnal grip, one have to start young.

Why do you think traditional backhand isn't good for adults to learn opposed to RPB?
 
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it takes time, a lot of time to manage traditional backhand, the chinese coach said to me you have to be young to learn it and I saw it on my own ... As I was not debutant, it had been too difficult for me.

Why do you think that is? The techniques are difficult or because of the grip?
 
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I will keep it in mind. If I get any pain when mucking around, it's time to stop completely. I've long known the dangers of RPB so I've been VERY anal in how I do the strokes and how stressed my arm is. My penhold form is better than my shakehand form, hah. In the beginning I had somewhat tight fingers and wrist, so I stopped until I could hold the shakehand relaxed. Now I can hold RPB very relaxed as well.


I understand what you mean about the backhands. I can't fade balls as well as I can with shakehand. I think if one was to learn it, it'd be a real weapon.

You are really stubborn about these things so good luck.
 
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I don't pretend to understand what I don't understand either :)

Hey, Lefty penholder here!

The thumb, index finger, and the middle finger play huge factors in the penhold stroke. The ring finger sort of merges with the middle finger. For this post, consider the middle finger to be both the middle finger and the ring finger.

The fingers have to be firm; otherwise, the paddle will slip when you do basic multiball.
The further your thumb is down the paddle, the more firm. The more your middle finger touches the rubber, it will also be more firm. Also, wrapping your index finger might help here.
After a while, your middle finger might get deformed. My middle finger is slightly bent sideways away from my thumb.

Wrapping your index finger around will make RPB a little easier. The more wrist you intend to use, the more your index finger will have to wrap. If your index finger wasn't there, your paddle would probably fly away. how tightly you grip with your index finger will affect how sore your finger will get when you practice rpb; remember, it is the only finger preventing the paddle from flying off.

The thumb and middle finger are necessary to close the paddle. Also, the position that the thumb and the middle finger take will also determine what kind of angles you can make with your paddle. For example, penhold looks like shake hand, except that the paddle got rotated about 90 degrees. The position of the thumb and middle finger determine that angle. Ideally, that angle isn't too small or too big.

Having straight fingers on the back of the paddle makes it hard to efficiently use the wrist. What do I mean by this? Every swing requires there to be a backswing. Having straight fingers for the backswing on the RPB feels really weird to me. (I feel no power). For the backhand, you're fingers are supposed to be dragging or pulling the paddle forward. If your middle finger is bent, it is easy to pull. If you're fingers are straight, you're middle and ring fingers are now pushing the paddle forward. Also, curved fingers also act as a spring board to get your paddle back to a ready position. Straight fingers don't do that for you.
Also straight fingers force your paddle to be pointed a little more away from your body and a little more up. That may or may not be desirable. It's also the difference between the forehands of Wang Hao and Xu Xin.


It's okay for your thumb to push though
(pushing is the only thing the thumb can do here anyways).

All in all, your fingers are there for control, not power. You use your wrist, forearm, and body for power. You fingers manipulate your paddle's angles and the limits of your paddles angles. Your wrist and paddle should be able to freely move up and down, forward and back easily.



A bad penhold grip would be when the last three fingers aren't together. You need them to be together if you want your paddle to have a proper collision with the ball, especially if the ball is very fast and is going to the forehand. It also limits the freedom of the wrist.

The three fingers should be somewhere close to the middle of the paddle.
If the three fingers are too close to the thumb, then you can't close your paddle properly. If the three fingers are too close to your index finger, you can't open your paddle properly.

If the paddle is always pointing towards the ground for the forehand swing, it means that the wrist isn't being used properly.
 
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