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View Full Version : Hip sway back and forth during forehand



Archosaurus
07-10-2016, 09:21 PM
Hey.

I've noticed that I've taken it a habit to sway slightly back and forth while rotating. It's not extreme, but I feel that I'm stressing my lower back more than I could be, and I'm pretty sure I'm losing energy that I could be transferring into the ball.

I understand that I'll probably never rotate around my centerline like the Chinese do, but I'd at least want to get this a bit cleaner. ;)

What exactly could be causing this and what could be remedies for it? I feel it has to do with the positioning of my legs and how I move them. It's like my hips are being pulled by the legs, or that I'm "dropping" my waist down and to the side.

@UpSideDownCarl You probably know a thing or two about this, so shoot.

Thanks.

Boogar
07-10-2016, 09:28 PM
Ah video would help

Archosaurus
07-10-2016, 09:36 PM
Ah, yes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW7M-Aldhec

It's not always this bad (I might be exaggerating it because I mentioned it) but that's about it. Hips are moving in a circle, off center. If I don't try to be strict with my form.

NextLevel
07-10-2016, 09:40 PM
Good to see you still wasting your time with stuff, archo. Whatever happened to video odf your match play?

Archosaurus
07-10-2016, 09:42 PM
I haven't been able to touch a table for nearly a month now. That's why I can waste all my time doing spin exercises and stuff like this. ;)

TTFrenzy
07-10-2016, 10:28 PM
im not a muscle expert i had a few problems with my back also and it was mostly because of my improper footwork. Feet always move first dont know if it can help you though

Your back and upper torso seem stiff in the video, you should try to tuck/rotate inwards your left elbow (your left not mine as I see you in the video) and waist, what you do in the video is putting tension on your back cause you are not rotating at all, it seems that you only turning your feet without the upper body following and I suppose that is creating back problems if this is the exact motion you do when you play. Just let the body fall/rotate in your right leg


Hope I helped, back issues are really annoying

p.s. let your whole body loose to the point that if someone pushes you a bit u lose ur balance. if ur muscles are stiff then the problem wont be fixed, relaxation and footwork are fundamentals for me in tt

Archosaurus
07-10-2016, 10:37 PM
It seems to be the issue rotating on the feet instead of rotating the body. I can feel it now when I got up and compared. Took me a second, but I can feel what you mean.

I don't think this is exactly what I do in games, but it's the first thing I do when I shadow and I couldn't understand why.

Just shows how much there is to TT mechanics.

If anyone has anything else, do post.

NextLevel
07-10-2016, 10:58 PM
It seems to be the issue rotating on the feet instead of rotating the body. I can feel it now when I got up and compared. Took me a second, but I can feel what you mean.

I don't think this is exactly what I do in games, but it's the first thing I do when I shadow and I couldn't understand why.

Just shows how much there is to TT mechanics.

If anyone has anything else, do post.

Sure - the motion largely looks fine and you probably need to work out the core and back muscles more to support it. You are also too narrow - your feet are too close together and your knees need to be more bent.

People underestimate how much developing high level TT form is a process as much as a result. Bending your knees often requires you to build strength in your inner and outer quads that most people lack. Leaning forward requires good core work and balance. And we haven't gotten to sustaining it throughout a point etc.

Rotating on the feet is one way of avoiding some of the issues with not being low enough and with strong enough ankles is an enhancer. Given how much you love TT, it would help you to actually spend a significant amount of time around a good coach in person.

Archosaurus
07-10-2016, 11:17 PM
Sure - the motion largely looks fine and you probably need to work out the core and back muscles more to support it. You are also too narrow - your feet are too close together and your knees need to be more bent.

People underestimate how much developing high level TT form is a process as much as a result. Bending your knees often requires you to build strength in your inner and outer quads that most people lack. Leaning forward requires good core work and balance. And we haven't gotten to sustaining it throughout a point etc.

Rotating on the feet is one way of avoiding some of the issues with not being low enough and with strong enough ankles is an enhancer. Given how much you love TT, it would help you to actually spend a significant amount of time around a good coach in person.

You're right about working out the back: it feels like a bottleneck. Legs and core are developed enough to let me get low: only the back gets stressed after some time.

I actually found that these strokes feel better when low. I think I will make it a habit to always stay that low because I can.

By going low, the load seems to shift more from the lower back to the abs. It doesn't feel as good as I think it can, but like you said, it's a process. At least now my back feels a bit safer.

I'll keep going over this and check to see if I'm low enough for now. I've had a habit of playing a bit too high, so you're probably right in the implication that I developed this habit to make up for it.


I do what I can without a coach, for the time being. I'm really not concerned with getting to a high level: just concerned about having a good base. It could be a lot worse. ;)

NextLevel
07-10-2016, 11:24 PM
I do what I can without a coach, for the time being. I'm really not concerned with getting to a high level: just concerned about having a good base. It could be a lot worse. ;)


Sure - not concerned with getting to a high level sure explains why you are concerned with things other than hitting the ball.

The thing is that is - there is no magic way to play table tennis. There are things that are help and things that hinder and even eccentricities can be encouraged as long as they produce mostly positive results with little physical detriment. I suspect that if/when you get to play with better players, you will have spent a lot of time on things that will not buy you much benefit because you will have to work on other things that are far more important. A lot of playing well is simply absorbing what good players around you do and you will naturally gravitate towards some and away from some in a club environment.

Archosaurus
07-10-2016, 11:29 PM
Sure - not concerned with getting to a high level sure explains why you are concerned with things other than hitting the ball.

The thing is that is - there is no magic way to play table tennis. There are things that are help and things that hinder and even eccentricities can be encouraged as long as they produce mostly positive results with little physical detriment. I suspect that if/when you get to play with better players, you will have spent a lot of time on things that will not buy you much benefit because you will have to work on other things that are far more important. A lot of playing well is simply absorbing what good players around you do and you will naturally gravitate towards some and away from some in a club environment.
Hah. I guess.

Although I am making it sound like all I do is shadow strokes and watch videos all day, (Which is not far from what I'm doing right now) the main focus is on the strokes. A lot of these problems fix themselves with practice. How can you know if your torso rotation is effective if there is no ball to provide feedback, you know what I mean?

That said, what do you suggest I do, in my current state? Drop all of this and focus on strokes entirely?

NextLevel
07-10-2016, 11:36 PM
Hah. I guess.

Although I am making it sound like all I do is shadow strokes and watch videos all day, (Which is not far from what I'm doing right now) the main focus is on the strokes. A lot of these problems fix themselves with practice. How can you know if your torso rotation is effective if there is no ball to provide feedback, you know what I mean?

That said, what do you suggest I do, in my current state? Drop all of this and focus on strokes entirely?

You enjoy what you do. Don't take me so seriously. My point is that don't go obsessing over every element of technique.

I would say that serve practice and getting the right whip mechanics for putting spin on the ball will always add to your level. The thing about serve practice without a table is that you can actually work on your ability to produce different spins with different motions without a table as long as you can read the trajectory of the ball as indicating the spin you are trying to produce. Floor serves and bed serves can be helpful for practicing your deception as long as the motion is short and you record yourself for feedback often. PEople can develop high level serves and spin without any practice partners whatsoever.

As long as you are not doing something that causes you to get injured, your focus should be on ball quality once your form checks the boxes. If your form changes are driven by ball quality and injury prevention, they tend to be more sustainable. TRying to just copy top level pros is good if you understand what they are doing. Otherwise, check off the basics and focus on the ball.

NextLevel
07-10-2016, 11:42 PM
The drill at 2:06 in this video is the kind of thing that people should be doing if they have generally okay form. Not worrying about every detail accompanied to the knees or feet. And as always, stop anything causing injury unless you don't care or are earning money like pros.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIzW16bITyo

Archosaurus
07-10-2016, 11:49 PM
Serve practice is probably what I've done the most. I can't know if my serves are relatively high level because I've never had them returned by someone who could be considered relatively high level, but I'm sure they'd bring a surprise to anyone anywhere near my general level.

I'm starting to get the gist of really whipping with the wrist and "shaking into the ball" like Brett says IIRC. Seeing some of that in my shadow loops too, but it's not quite there I think. Need to be more relaxed and I need to try it out with live ammo. ;)


Tell me, is my form "generally okay", because I'm still not sure exactly where I stand. Even if it isn't, I've done that before: actually one of the first things I did when learning to brush better.

NextLevel
07-11-2016, 12:02 AM
I suspect that you are going to be lifting the ball as the racket seems to be coming towards the ball from below which is not ideal vs topspin balls but I can't tell what ball you are hitting in your head. The ball should come upwards at the end of the backswing. The circular backswing is a way of opening the paddle of the backswing and is not just circular for its own sake. But like I tell people, it is important to focus on the ball quality.

You can share video of your floor and bed serves if you are secure in them.

Archosaurus
07-11-2016, 12:14 AM
I suspect that you are going to be lifting the ball as the racket seems to be coming towards the ball from below which is not ideal vs topspin balls but I can't tell what ball you are hitting in your head. The ball should come upwards at the end of the backswing. The circular backswing is a way of opening the paddle of the backswing and is not just circular for its own sake. But like I tell people, it is important to focus on the ball quality.

You can share video of your floor and bed serves if you are secure in them.

Oh, those aren't loops, in the videos above. I wouldn't call them drives either. They're "shadow strokes", completely useless for actually contacting the ball. I didn't notice I wasn't actually doing anything proper.

The reason I do them like that is because I actually did used to come down under the ball like that when I tried to loop. Seems it's stuck. And yes, I was lifting the ball.


I think when I start hitting at balls again, with my new, more horizontal loop stroke, it'll fix itself. It's at the point where I can at least shadow it in front of a mirror and it will look correct from the front and side, and the form won't get any worse if I have to swing without a mirror. Just need to work on the ball quality on an actual ball.

Maybe. It never crossed my mind. I'm going pretty comfortably in my serves and achieving all the things I want to, so I don't even know if I want feedback to clutter my head. You will see the serves when I get around to recording match footage next time I play after school.

V-Griper
07-11-2016, 03:06 AM
Hip sway like that is fundamentally incorrect. You will not be able to get support for your stroke from your lower body with that motion.

Archosaurus
07-11-2016, 03:10 AM
Hip sway like that is fundamentally incorrect. You will not be able to get support for your stroke from your lower body with that motion.
Therefore, it's best if you post a video example of yourself explaining the correct hip motion.

NextLevel
07-11-2016, 03:36 AM
Hip sway like that is fundamentally incorrect. You will not be able to get support for your stroke from your lower body with that motion.

On a counterhit/block? This is news to me. Feel free to post the right motion and explain the dangers of this motion.

V-Griper
07-11-2016, 03:38 AM
Therefore, it's best if you post a video example of yourself explaining the correct hip motion.

LOL best for whom?

Archosaurus
07-11-2016, 03:48 AM
On a counterhit/block? This is news to me. Feel free to post the right motion and explain the dangers of this motion.
I am also intrigued. If a video won't do, then a short written description would be fine.

Admittedly, because I made this thread, I'm not an expert on body mechanics and there's a lot I could learn, so I'm not going to disagree or agree necessarily. Some basis would be nice to clarify the claim.

V-Griper
07-11-2016, 04:34 AM
Sure-

A CH/B is basically a mini/micro weight shift plus hip extension and rotation, in essence a scaled down drive or loop. Basically you pushing forward Slightly with your right leg and opening at the right hip as you stroke the ball.

So to me your hip is just swinging around but there is no drive from the right leg and hip as such that your arm and body look disconnected, which is were my comment about no support from the body comes in. Though one caveat I will make is that often people don't ghost the same movement that they use when they actually hit a ball.

Some vid examples-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0KOLRMipOM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld8Nad1apHE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIzEx8NBQyQ&spfreload=1

NextLevel
07-11-2016, 04:52 AM
V-Griper,

Thanks for the video. Seems like you and Archosaurus would make for a good partnership in dealing in such details.

V-Griper
07-11-2016, 05:31 AM
V-Griper,

Thanks for the video. Seems like you and Archosaurus would make for a good partnership in dealing in such details.

LOL I like that one.

UpSideDownCarl
07-11-2016, 05:53 AM
Okay Archo, NextLevel already hinted at this. The main issue here is, you need to be hitting a real ball.

You can get better by practicing shadow strokes. But you can't correct the form of your actual stroke (the stroke you use when you are hitting a real ball) by looking at the way you do a shadow stroke. You need to see real strokes and analyze them. Because real strokes will usually be different than what you do when you shadow stroke. The reason is that with a real stroke you have to track and intercept the ball so you are adjusting to each separate ball. With shadow strokes you don't need to adjust to the incoming ball.

Archosaurus
07-11-2016, 01:02 PM
Thanks for the reply V-Griper.


So that's it? I was avoiding pushing off excessively because these are not loops. In my loops, I have adequate hip extension and uncoiling.

I suppose there needs to be hip extension to get the legs into it even in a drive. Somehow I think the ball would go into the net if you don't include the legs.

Murre5
07-11-2016, 09:19 PM
Instead of obsessing over this when you can't even play right now, go do some weightlifting or at least bodyweight training. Trying to fix a small error with shadowstrokes seems insane to me. Get a coach and be at a table if you want to actually fix the issue you think you are having.