Dealing with short, fairly high balls that appear half long

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Hey.

A ball I somewhat struggle with is the occasional short, high ball that barely hits the edge. I don't get these too often when playing people my level, but against worse players, against whom I use less speed and spin, they're more common. You see similar stuff even in high level play, but that's a bit different. Here we're talking about a pretty easy ball that can't be played offensively if you take it too late.


What should I do in this case? Should I spot that it's a bit high and just flip it to keep the pressure going instead of backing off to loop? Should I push it low? Try to loop it over the table? Dropshot it?

This isn't a ball that's dropping in a terribly high angle from very high, so it can't just be smashed. It's high enough to potentially be taken with a loop over the table even if it's short, if you're fast enough. It's not low and very short like a push either, so I can't really keep it low and short over the net with my own push if it has any spin on it.

Should I keep playing it safe and push it back? Should I learn to take these early and loop them? Flip them?
 
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Short term advice:
Do whatever you were going to do. If you were going to loop it, don't stop yourself. If you were going to flip, don't stop yourself. Just do your thing and move on.


Long term advice:
Loop it.
Don't play it too late. Play the top of the bounce. You'd be surprised how useful it is.

Definitely learn how to loop openers at the top of the bounce. That is the best option, especially in the long term.
Looping over the table requires you to have a more forward motion in your loop, rather than an upward motion. I find that a lot of amateur players lack this forward motion. Spinning the ball forward isn't always easy, but it is part of development (after all, you need to learn this in order to counter loop openers).

This isn't limited to just a bad push: You can also use this to serves that are short, but are a little too high.


If you aren't in position for a strong loop, a flip is also fine. A backhand flip is definitely an acceptable return.


Don't try to smash it unless it is very high.


If you see this kind of ball, ask yourself two questions:

is the ball descending?
what spin is on the ball?

Most of the time, you see this kind of high short ball when your opponent receives your serve badly. If your serve was spinny, chances are that high ball is spinny. Be wary and don't be too eager to smash. If the ball is closer to the edge, loop it. If your opponent clearly was going for a short push and it is close to the net, go for the flip. There is nothing wrong with that.

The other times you see this ball is when you short push and they push it back. Now, since your short push won't have too much spin, your opponent's push won't be that spinny. In fact, it will probably have only a light amount of spin. Either way, don't be so eager to smash. Loop if it is going longer and flip if it is really short.


If you decide to push it back, the best choice is to push it long and fast. Since it is a little high, make sure you push it down into the table. If the ball isn't really spinny, make sure your paddle angle is close to vertical and push it down. Fast pushes are very difficult to loop kill. Your opponent will either push it back or loop it slow and spinny.
 
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@songdavid98

I lack the confidence to produce a strong loop onto balls that are right on the edge. Although with a more forearm oriented, very forward loop somewhere between a counterloop and forehand flip, I can spin it and get it over somewhat satisfyingly, albeit without pace. Is a shot like that okay? That is before the descent or just after it starts falling. Usually my mistakes happen if I wait, when I think I could brush loop it late below the table. Top of the bounce is better?

This is for forehand, by the way. No problems on the backhand side, over the table play is easier with the modern backhand. Almost feels like cheating.

@Der_Echte Is the shot I described what you mean? Taking it very early and nearly flipping it with mostly wrist and forearm?
 
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@songdavid98

I lack the confidence to produce a strong loop onto balls that are right on the edge. Although with a more forearm oriented, very forward loop somewhere between a counterloop and forehand flip, I can spin it and get it over somewhat satisfyingly, albeit without pace. Is a shot like that okay? That is before the descent or just after it starts falling. Usually my mistakes happen if I wait, when I think I could brush loop it late below the table. Top of the bounce is better?

This is for forehand, by the way. No problems on the backhand side, over the table play is easier with the modern backhand. Almost feels like cheating.

It shouldn't feel like a flip. It's just a loop. To me, it's just like looping a bad no spin serve. Imagine you are looping a no spin serve.

A slow one is fine. When you are more confident, you can add more speed.

However, if you rely on the forearm for power, just make sure that your forearm isn't going up too much. You need a forward motion to keep it on the table, especially since it is a little high.
 
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It shouldn't feel like a flip. It's just a loop. To me, it's just like looping a bad no spin serve. Imagine you are looping a no spin serve.

A slow one is fine. When you are more confident, you can add more speed.

However, if you rely on the forearm for power, just make sure that your forearm isn't going up too much. You need a forward motion to keep it on the table, especially since it is a little high.
Yes, that's what I mean. Exactly like looping a fairly high and short/half long no-spin serve over the table. I get better success if I take it very early and nearly jump into the ball. Think of Ma Lin doing forehand flipkills, but not so exaggerated.

That's what I want to strive for?
 
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Yeah, you basically have to jump at the opportunity.

It's not exactly off the bounce. Top of the bounce is the ideal.

But you have the right idea. Get into position and go for it, with no hesitation.
I doubt I'll even make it to take it off the bounce, and it was just a typo. Top of the bounce, yeah.

I've found I screw this up unless I spot it coming a mile out and really violently jump at it to go and get it as soon as it leaves the racket. I really need to improve my in-out footwork, so I guess I should practice these when I have the chance...
 
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A roll is a shot that requires some touch and a soft hand through the impact. You are giving it only a little spin. If you place the ball well and not too high, the lack of spin and placement will make opponent off time / out of position and give you an easy ball if he stepped back to loop. If he stayed at table, he might misread the spin or the placement will help prevent an attack and give you another chance to attack decisively.
 
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David, would you advise a 1400 player to loop short balls over the table?


DerEchte, your solution is better but why not just force the kid to show some damn video before giving him too much advice? He was getting looping lessons from Carl and now he wants to flick and loop balls over the table?
 
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David the problem with Archo is he has an analytic mind and a vivid imagination , the good thing about archo is he has analytic mind and a vivid imagination ... :)

He has the capability to describe a situation which might seem to you like its a 18-1900 level game scenario but it is quite possible it is not and if you suggest a solution he has a tendency to over analyze it and instead of taking your word for it , he will project it to a more difficult scenario and try to break it down ...

so the appropriate answer in this situation is unfortunately "video" ? I have to agree with NL ...
 
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David, would you advise a 1400 player to loop short balls over the table?


DerEchte, your solution is better but why not just force the kid to show some damn video before giving him too much advice? He was getting looping lessons from Carl and now he wants to flick and loop balls over the table?

I agree with this. Too many beginners over-complicate the stuffs they need to learn in the first place. I rarely see people who are below 2000 flicking ball left and right.

Good serves, knowledge of pushing the ball where you want it (corners or side, short or long or half-long) and consistent opening loop along with the follow-up are what you need to know right now archo.

I describe myself as someone who has a decent 3rd ball on FH and it's tough to loop ball over the table, especially if the ball is spinny. A proper fast brushing motion that actually brushes the ball and not hitting it is required.
 
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David the problem with Archo is he has an analytic mind and a vivid imagination , the good thing about archo is he has analytic mind and a vivid imagination ... :)

He has the capability to describe a situation which might seem to you like its a 18-1900 level game scenario but it is quite possible it is not and if you suggest a solution he has a tendency to over analyze it and instead of taking your word for it , he will project it to a more difficult scenario and try to break it down ...

so the appropriate answer in this situation is unfortunately "video" ? I have to agree with NL ...

So let's take archo at his word for a second. I am watching a TTEdge video about footwork that William Henzell made a while back. In this video, he discusses the situation that Archo seem to be describing (high ball short over the table that requires and over the table topspin). The first thing he says is that this is a shot that many players have problems with. Now note that when a world class player is saying this, he isn't referring to you, me or Archo. The next thing he says is "...especially the ones that like to keep their racket low." So now, how do we know that archo doesn't keep his racket perpetually low and this isn't his main problem? We know because we can read his mind?

Now the technique that William gives is fairly advanced partly because he want the footwork to allow you to continue the rally. I cannot execute it. I won't even pretend to try. I use footwork, if you can call it that, that is designed to try to end the point but which will leave me blocking should the rally continue. Mind you, I have had all kinds practice looping all kinds of short balls to the forehand. And then there are subtle differences in solutions if the ball goes to your backhand or to your forehand.

So if I described in detail the footwork required as described by William to archo, am I being fair?
 
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Yeah. You guys should really pay attention to what NextLevel is saying: Here is the one piece of advice so far that actually makes some sense:


And guys, it seems you may need to be reminded who you are giving advice to. I mean this IS Archosaurus after all!!!

I get better success if I take it very early and nearly jump into the ball.

Jumping isn't good in table tennis, but yeah, you basically have to jump at the opportunity.

It's not exactly off the bounce. Top of the bounce is the ideal.

I doubt I'll even make it to take it off the bounce, and it was just a typo. Top of the bounce, yeah.


Usually my mistakes happen if I wait, when I think I could brush loop it late below the table.

NOW WAIT! JUST HOLD ON A SECOND!! HOW DO YOU LOOP A SHORT BALL LATE FROM BELOW THE TABLE!!!

Come on guys. Remember this is Archosaurus. He is just saying what ever he says based on what you have said. And half of what he is saying is more about trying to say things that make you think he is getting what you said, which, more than likely, he doesn't.

I am not even sure most of what he says has any actual meaning. It sure doesn't seem like he knows what short and half long mean.

But, I have an idea: Archo, why would you want to take that ball at the top of the bounce? What would make the top of the bounce a good timing for taking a short high ball?
 
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Carl , you forgot to put the <funny> :p
Yeah. Here is the one piece of advice so far that actually makes some sense:



And guys, it seems you may need to be reminded who you are giving advice to. I mean this is Archosaurus.










NOW WAIT. JUST HOLD ON A SECOND. HOW DO YOU LOOP A SHORT BALL LATE FROM BELOW THE TABLE.

Come on guys. Remember this is Archosaurus. He is just saying what ever he says based on what you have said. And half of what he is saying is more about trying to say things that make you think he is getting what you said, which he doesn't.

And none of what he says actually means anything. He does not even know what short and half long mean.
 
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Carl , you forgot to put the <funny> :p

Nah, I don't need to. Archo put the funny in, by what he said. I mean, come on. David says take it at the top of the bounce and he says, jump into it and take it on the rise. David says no jump and top of the bounce not on the rise and he says, oh yeah, it was a typo: top of the bounce.

And he is talking about waiting and looping short balls from below the table. I mean, come on. The funny, smiley face, emoji is all over how Archo is yanking people's chains.
 
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I was somehow reminded of the old tom and jerry cartoons ...
Nah, I don't need to. Archo put the funny in, by what he said. I mean, come on. David says take it at the top of the bounce and he says, jump into it and take it on the rise. David says no jump and top of the bounce not on the rise and he says, oh yeah, it was a typo: top of the bounce.

And he is talking about waiting and looping short balls from below the table. I mean, come on. The funny, smiley face, emoji is all over how Archo is yanking people's chains.
 
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