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moriguchi2
08-28-2011, 06:44 AM
Hey everyone,

I am a table tennis play who plays close to the table, mid distance looper that used to play with a custom blade that was OFF++ and tenergy 05 both sides. Yet i have tons of speed, I have very little control and very little consistency. I am a two winged looper that wants to keep the ball on the table more but still have loops fairly fast and spinny. I just finished trying and testing the Juic combo of the Stellan Bengtsson Blade with the Nano Spin 2 and i found that it played too slow and it was more for beginners. Can anyone recommend a blade and rubber combination that is around OFF- and work well together. I perfer to stick to tenergy but any other rubber suggestions are fine.

I really appreciate all that can help!

YosuaYosan
08-28-2011, 07:29 AM
So whats the thickness of your T05 ?
And what is your blade ?

If I know better I could surely help :)

moriguchi2
08-28-2011, 07:35 AM
i use max (2.1) sponge and custom blade by BBC (Blades by Charlie) OFF-

moriguchi2
08-28-2011, 07:35 AM
i use max (2.1) sponge and custom blade by BBC (Blades by Charlie) OFF- Sorry i meant OFF++ for the blade

YosuaYosan
08-28-2011, 08:19 AM
I see, MAX sponge it is then.
How about the blade's characteristics ?
Is it stiff and hard or is it a bit soft and flexed ?
How many ply does it have ? Any idea what is the ply used ?

azlan
08-28-2011, 07:57 PM
Equipment for Control Looper
Hey everyone,

I am a table tennis play who plays close to the table, mid distance looper that used to play with a custom blade that was OFF++ and tenergy 05 both sides. Yet i have tons of speed, I have very little control and very little consistency. I am a two winged looper that wants to keep the ball on the table more but still have loops fairly fast and spinny. I just finished trying and testing the Juic combo of the Stellan Bengtsson Blade with the Nano Spin 2 and i found that it played too slow and it was more for beginners. Can anyone recommend a blade and rubber combination that is around OFF- and work well together. I perfer to stick to tenergy but any other rubber suggestions are fine.

I really appreciate all that can help!

Hi buddy, honestly, I think your set up is fine. You just have to work more on your consistency, that's all. Since you hit the ball with so much pace, the ball will inevitably comes back at speed. Work on your footwork and timing more. There are so many players out there who wish that they have the power to attack with speed and spin. So, why are you taking two steps back? Honestly mate, if you change to a slower set up, it will be frustrating for you.

YosuaYosan
08-29-2011, 02:48 AM
The problem is even not every professional player use OFF++ blade with MAX sponge, they still appreciate control.
For this case, usually an OFF++ (hard, rigid, more than 5-ply) blade will leave the setup dwell-time less thus even less spin could be imparted to the ball even though the rubber is T 05. The MAX sponge add up the speed and without enough topspin to bring down the ball, the ball will always pop out off the table.
For this case you could refine your play and technique with slower setup. Maybe an OFF- blade with T 05 slapped to both side ?

moriguchi2
08-29-2011, 05:07 AM
The blade is a 7 ply balsa core with carbon and it has the characteristics of a brick...literally, yet i like the feel. When i mean "brick" i mean almost no dwell time and hard and no flex.

YosuaYosan
08-29-2011, 11:03 AM
Yep, your blade is too hard. No dwell time, no spin, no control.

UpSideDownCarl
08-29-2011, 11:57 AM
That blade is terrible for looping. That is a blade that is for smashing. If you are used to that, it will take you a long time to get used to anything else. Everything you use will feel slow after that. So you will just have to break down and use something that feels slow for a while. Even an offensive blade will feel slow. But you should probably try and offensive blade. I don't usually recommend these but they are good because they have a lot of dwell time and they are still decently fast. You should try one of Butterfly's technology blades: Timo Boll ALC, Timo Boll ZLC, Viscaria, Jun Mizutani. I think the Butterfly Innerforce series is good as well, but I somehow like the ones I mentioned better than the InnerForce blades I have felt. That being said, all of those Butterfly blades have a lot of dwell time so you can get a lot of spin and control and they have more speed than any player really needs. If you wanted something less expensive and all wood, that is a similar speed you could try a Stiga Clipper. The Clipper has a similar amount of dwell time to the blades above and a similar amount of speed. On the up-side of the Clipper, you can feel the ball more on the racket, you get more feeling from the Clipper. On the down-side: it weighs more which could slow your swing down.

My perspective on fast blades is: I have enough power to hit the ball past someone with a slow blade. I don't need anything that fast. I like All+ or Off- blades because I get so much more spin from them that the extra spin is worth it to me. I also actually like the fact that I have to work a little harder for the speed and this forces me to have a better stroke: more efficiency in the stroke = more spin and power. But, when I use the Butterfly blades mentioned they have more than enough control and enough dwell time to use the blade to my advantage. If I had one of those blades and they did not cost so much, I would use it even though I am happy with what I have as well.

Tenergy 05 goes really well on those blades so there is no need to change that. It is a good combination. In June I switched my forehand rubber from Tenergy to Skyline III to see if I could figure out why the Chinese all use DHS rubber on the forehand with Tenergy on the backhand. It is a good combination. Perhaps Hurricane III would be better as a first Chinese rubber (a little more forgiving), but I like the Skyline. You get a ton of spin on loops and serves from the Chinese rubber. However, it took me almost a month to be fully used to the Skyline and I do play every day. To use tacky rubbers like Skyline or Hurricane you need slightly different technique: you contact the ball differently. You have to be very precise with them because of the tackiness of the topsheet. So I don't recommend you change your rubber setup and your blade at the same time. What ever blade you choose, you should use the same rubbers you were using so that, at least something stays the same and you are used to it.

It will still take you a while to get used to a blade that is slower, but it will be worth the time you take to get used to it. Fast balsa blades feel great to just hit with, but they are not so good for short game or control loops. They are mainly good for hitting the ball hard. When you get used to something better for looping and for the touch of short game, your level will probably go up decently.

moriguchi2
08-29-2011, 09:42 PM
That blade is terrible for looping. That is a blade that is for smashing. If you are used to that, it will take you a long time to get used to anything else. Everything you use will feel slow after that. So you will just have to break down and use something that feels slow for a while. Even an offensive blade will feel slow. But you should probably try and offensive blade. I don't usually recommend these but they are good because they have a lot of dwell time and they are still decently fast. You should try one of Butterfly's technology blades: Timo Boll ALC, Timo Boll ZLC, Viscaria, Jun Mizutani. I think the Butterfly Innerforce series is good as well, but I somehow like the ones I mentioned better than the InnerForce blades I have felt. That being said, all of those Butterfly blades have a lot of dwell time so you can get a lot of spin and control and they have more speed than any player really needs. If you wanted something less expensive and all wood, that is a similar speed you could try a Stiga Clipper. The Clipper has a similar amount of dwell time to the blades above and a similar amount of speed. On the up-side of the Clipper, you can feel the ball more on the racket, you get more feeling from the Clipper. On the down-side: it weighs more which could slow your swing down.

My perspective on fast blades is: I have enough power to hit the ball past someone with a slow blade. I don't need anything that fast. I like All+ or Off- blades because I get so much more spin from them that the extra spin is worth it to me. I also actually like the fact that I have to work a little harder for the speed and this forces me to have a better stroke: more efficiency in the stroke = more spin and power. But, when I use the Butterfly blades mentioned they have more than enough control and enough dwell time to use the blade to my advantage. If I had one of those blades and they did not cost so much, I would use it even though I am happy with what I have as well.

Tenergy 05 goes really well on those blades so there is no need to change that. It is a good combination. In June I switched my forehand rubber from Tenergy to Skyline III to see if I could figure out why the Chinese all use DHS rubber on the forehand with Tenergy on the backhand. It is a good combination. Perhaps Hurricane III would be better as a first Chinese rubber (a little more forgiving), but I like the Skyline. You get a ton of spin on loops and serves from the Chinese rubber. However, it took me almost a month to be fully used to the Skyline and I do play every day. To use tacky rubbers like Skyline or Hurricane you need slightly different technique: you contact the ball differently. You have to be very precise with them because of the tackiness of the topsheet. So I don't recommend you change your rubber setup and your blade at the same time. What ever blade you choose, you should use the same rubbers you were using so that, at least something stays the same and you are used to it.

It will still take you a while to get used to a blade that is slower, but it will be worth the time you take to get used to it. Fast balsa blades feel great to just hit with, but they are not so good for short game or control loops. They are mainly good for hitting the ball hard. When you get used to something better for looping and for the touch of short game, your level will probably go up decently.
Its funny how RIGHT you are because i just tryed a Michael Maze with tenergy and felt slow but is suppose to be fast... I guess it will take time. May i ask what the difference between the Timo ALC and Jun M. blade are?

UpSideDownCarl
09-01-2011, 05:13 AM
Its funny how RIGHT you are because i just tryed a Michael Maze with tenergy and felt slow but is suppose to be fast... I guess it will take time. May i ask what the difference between the Timo ALC and Jun M. blade are?

These are the plies on the Jun Mizutani: limba-zlc-limba-kiri-limba-zlc-limba

So it is a ZLC blade with Limba and Kiri.

I am pretty sure that these are the plies for the Timo ALC: koto-arylate/carbon-limba-kiri-limb-arylate/carbon-koto

So it is a Koto outer ply with Limba and Kiri inside the ALC

This is the Michael Maze: limba-arylate/carbon-limba-ayous-limba-arylate/carbon-limba

Thinking about it though, the Timo Boll ZLC might be the best bet for you. Koto is the outer ply which makes it faster than the blades that have Limba. And ZLC is faster than ALC without loosing dwell time. It still will feel sort of slow to you, but it is great for looping and has lots of control and is probably as fast a blade as you would ever want for looping. I don't think there is anything that fast that has that much dwell time, and dwell time is where you get the extra spin for real heavy spin loops.

This is why most of the pros use blades that are this fast or slower. When I used a Clipper these blades felt normal to me. They are the same speed as a Clipper. It took me a while to get used to using a slower blade, my current blade is rated All+ but truthfully it feels like most Off- blades I try. But now I can feel how much faster and how much less dwell time the Clipper and these Butterfly blades have than my All+ blade. But I can also feel they have more than enough dwell time to get a lot of spin.

It will take time for you to get used to something that much slower than what you are now using, but when you do, you will be able to feel how much more spin you can put on loops, pushes and serves. The difference will be marked. And after you are really used to the slower blade, if you try your Off++ Balsa blade, you will feel how little dwell time and how much less spin you were getting from it. Since that blade feels normal to you right now, it will be hard to feel that. But when you are used to something with good dwell time, you will feel the difference as big. And you will also see how much more you are able to use the power of your own stroke, weight transfer, hips and arm to generate pace, where, now you are probably using the blade more than you realize and a full stroke less than you ideally want to.

moriguchi2
09-03-2011, 05:33 AM
ZLC blade is quite pricy... i might try to try it before i buy it

UpSideDownCarl
09-03-2011, 06:30 AM
ZLC blade is quite pricy... i might try to try it before i buy it

I would always see if I can try something before buying it. That is just a good idea. Getting to feel a blade to see what it plays like before buying it is well worth it, even if it takes time to find someone who has one.

moriguchi2
09-04-2011, 06:06 PM
Also i heard alot of good things about Stiga blades that are alot cheaper. do u know of any that play similar to the ZLC blade??

UpSideDownCarl
09-05-2011, 03:04 PM
I love Stiga's wood blades. My favorite is the Clipper. My favorite blades are actually Stiga blades. The reason I suggested the Butterfly ones for you, is you are coming from something very fast and the only Carbon blades that are really actually good, in my opinion, are the Butterfly technology blades where they combine Carbon for speed with something else to make the blade also have a soft slow element for when you do not hit as hard, short game touch stuff, and for when you loop. The other thing about the Clipper is that it is a little heavy. It is around 90-95 grams usually. Whereas most of those Butterfly blades are closer to 85 grams.

The Clipper is all wood and 7 plies, but it does the same basic thing that those technology blades do without the technology. The outer ply, Limba, is soft and SLOW, so that when you do touch stuff, it has a lot of control. But the outer ply is very thin. When you swing harder the ball penetrates the outer ply and reaches the inner plies, Ayous, which are springy and fast. You feel this snap from the ball sinking past the limba and then the ball shoots off the blade face almost like it has been catapulted. Those technology blades do this same exact thing which is what makes them so good. No other carbon blades that I have felt do this. The advantage to the Clipper is that, because it is all wood, you can feel the ball on the surface of the blade much better than with the carbon combination blades. The disadvantages are that it is heavier and it actually does not do this quite as well as some of those technology blades (but it does it more than well enough, many, many pros use this blade or one just like it from another company like the Joola Viva).

The other reason I did not suggest this one to you is that it is a little bit slower than most of those Butterfly blades and since you are coming from something sooo fast, it might be harder to get used to. It is really a great blade though and it is $55.00. The ones that say Clipper CR, even though, the info from the company says they are faster, my experience is that they are slower but have less of that snap. I love that feeling when the blade and ball make that snap sound that is not just the rubber.

You might also look at Stiga Optimum Plus: http://www.tabletennisdb.com/blade/stiga-optimum-plus.html

I would also say you can look at the Avalox P-700, but it is almost the same as the Clipper and a little slow still. Or the Avalox P-500, it is what Kong Linghui used before Butterfly made him a blade. It is almost the same blade as the Butterfly Kong Linghui but it is made in Sweden and, to me, it has better feeling than the Butterfly version. But this one is probably also too slow for you since it is a little slower than the P-700. :)

Other blades from Stiga that are really good are expensive too though, like the Rosewood and Ebenholz. The last thing that is worth knowing about Stiga blades. A lot of people used to products like Butterfly blades get a Stiga blade and think that it has been manufactured poorly. This is because they come needing to be sanded and finished. I like this. Since I am the type of person who likes to do things like cut my rubbers and glue them on myself, or tech my blade, I have no problem with a blade that comes to my a little rough when brand new. Then I can tech it, sand it, finish it, and make it ready to play myself. Whereas, someone in a store who is putting your blade together for you is not going to care. It might come out looking professional, but it will not be tailored to your game. All the pros have their blades teched and set up before they use them. And all the pros put glue on how they like. For example, the Chinese tend to glue up before a match like when speed glue was okay, and they tend to use many coats of glue on their sponge for extra bounce. I have my own technique. But the person in the store is just going to glue it. I like sanding down the wings of the blade (the part that is between the handle and where the sponge starts) so that it conforms to the shape of my hand better. I use Minwax Wipe On Poly to finish the blade because you can put on a very thin coating that protects the wood without changing the playing characteristics of the wood. I also am strange in that I like my handle finished. A lot of people think my handle is slipper and are worried about when they are sweating a lot. I am not worried about that. :) But many people just want to take the blade out of the box, have the rubber put on, and play. Butterfly is definitely better for that. But once you are playing, Stiga blades feel better than anything else in my opinion.

Funny, they almost feel cheap and disposable in a certain way, but, somehow because of that, you get amazing feeling for the ball with them. :) Butterfly blades feel solid and well constructed, but to me, because of that, most of their blades play like a piece of furniture, like hitting with a solid board. :) The new technology blades are the exception they really feel good. But, no carbon blade has as much feeling as a good all wood blade. So I personally like all wood blades.

Wow, this is long. I hope it is helpful.

UpSideDownCarl
09-05-2011, 03:16 PM
As a general statement, blades that have Carbon but not something like Arylate or Zylon with the Carbon are better for hitting than for looping because they do not give you enough time with the ball on the surface of the rubber and blade so you do not get as much spin. Also, wood blades have more vibration than carbon, but give you much more of an ability to feel the ball on the racket surface. The carbon cuts down the vibrations significantly but leaves you far less able to feel the ball. For me, one of the joys of playing is feeling the ball on the racket as I let the ball sink into the rubber, feel the rubber grab the ball and stop the spin, and then swipe past, accelerate my stroke, use my wrist and spin the ball. I can do it without feeling the ball as well, but I love feeling it.

It is also worth noting that Zhang Jike is the FIRST ever World Champion who was using a blade with Carbon in it when he won the World Championship. All previous World Champions were using an all wood blade when they won. Even the guys who signature blades that have Carbon in them. And I will contend, that, because the Viscaria (Arylate Carbon) has those playing characteristics of touch and control with speed that I describe in my previous post, this was possible. An all carbon blade (no arylate) would have hindered Zhang Jike's touch.

moriguchi2
09-06-2011, 01:25 AM
is vibration good for hitting or looping?

UpSideDownCarl
09-06-2011, 04:22 AM
is vibration good for hitting or looping?

As far as I understand, does not effect the performance of how the blade impacts the ball. So you could have a blade with vibration that is good for looping and another that is good for hitting. What it affects is what you feel of the ball on the racket. Too much vibration, I have heard, will not feel good. I have not felt a blade like that. But some vibration is also what some people refer to as "feeling", where, as a result of a small amount of vibration from the ball hitting the racket, you can feel what is happening while the ball is on the racket surface. Again, I could be wrong about this. But that is my understanding of it. If the vibration is completely dampened, you feel less of what you are doing while the ball is on the racket. This is the case with most carbon blades because of the carbon. With most wood blades there is a certain amount of vibration. When it is a good amount, it translates into feeling, when it is too much, it does not feel good. But different people will use the same blade and one will say, "there is too much vibration," and another will say, "wow, this blade has great feeling." :) So, in a sense, it may come down to personal preference.

azlan
09-09-2011, 06:43 AM
Carl is absolutely right. What works for you might not work for someone else. There are no clear cut thing about this. It's all down to preference. I for one would prefer a set up which has a little more feel, and Stiga blades give me just that. I can still loop and hit, same goes to Butterfly Timo ALC, though heavily dampened (as far as I'm concern), allows me to do the same too. But Stiga blades help me improved my short games. It helps me gage my heavy and light touches.

UpSideDownCarl
09-10-2011, 12:21 AM
Carl is absolutely right. What works for you might not work for someone else. There are no clear cut thing about this. It's all down to preference. I for one would prefer a set up which has a little more feel, and Stiga blades give me just that. I can still loop and hit, same goes to Butterfly Timo ALC, though heavily dampened (as far as I'm concern), allows me to do the same too. But Stiga blades help me improved my short games. It helps me gage my heavy and light touches.

What you just described is exactly how I feel and why I love Stiga blades, more than any other blades, they are my personal favorite. It is also why I like all wood Stiga blades. But it is true, I have used all of those blades from Butterfly. They work really well. They do what they are supposed to. They do it as well as any other blade, or better. But for me there is less feeling and so I have less touch.

moriguchi2
09-11-2011, 02:55 AM
Its so hard picking equipment by personal preference because i am on a low budget and i cant really spend money testing many blades :/ i may just stick with what i have because i am used to it and try different rubbers that i can test from friends

UpSideDownCarl
09-11-2011, 06:18 AM
Its so hard picking equipment by personal preference because i am on a low budget and i cant really spend money testing many blades :/ i may just stick with what i have because i am used to it and try different rubbers that i can test from friends

Often I would say that sounds like it makes sense but if you are using such a fast blade and you are having trouble keeping the ball on the table consistently, I would look at that seriously. An Off+ blade is actually too fast for looping so an Off++ blade is a little crazy even though you are used to it. Your first order of business, I would say, would be to get something that is good for looping in the speed range of Off to Off- and get used to a blade that is a slower speed. Without that it will be hard to develop really good loops and the touch of the dwell time that will really give you that extra spin on the ball to make your shots powerful and consistent.

moriguchi2
09-11-2011, 06:33 AM
I will do just that but i would have to wait because i have to play in some big tournaments (natt berkeley open and ICC juniors and baltimore teams ) coming up and i dont want to experiment so close.

Mr. RicharD
09-13-2011, 05:08 AM
Moriguchi I'd suggest trying a slower spinnier rubber on your "brick" blade. If you like the feel of that blade then you should go ahead and keep it. As I've stated in other posts the speed from a ball is primarily from the blade. So getting a good spinny control rubber like maybe GeoSpin Tacky or Juic 999 Elite (that's the old name I don't know if it's the same name now). Also when you do transition back to the Tenergy you should consider getting a thinner sponge. This will give you more control in your shots.

My buddy had a Jpen blade that's a thick Balsa ply. He was using Bryce Speed on both sides and just had no short game. I gave him a sheet of Geo and he absolutely loved it. Had the speed of his smashes and loops, but he finally had a short game.