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nonixious
08-10-2016, 01:07 AM
Hi TTD. Watching the match between Boll and Aruna and several other matches of African players, it got me thinking. This tournament, saw many African players such as Aruna playing incredibly well and could par with the world elite. However, while watching it, it feels like they are much technically inferior to that world elite, their shots are very basic, they seem clumsy at times, but they make it up with great athleticism. I feel like before 40+ there were not many African players, let alone those who won any matches at all and now, with the new plastic ball, less technique is required from them and their unique athletic style has puzzled the minds of many of the world's elite.

Also, the Celluloid ball produces much more spin than the current 40+ plastic ball, Aruna would have not been able to counter against Timos spin during the celluloid ball era like he did yesterday in Rio.

Do you agree? Intersted in your thoughts.

LordPippington
08-10-2016, 01:49 AM
Less technique? Maybe it's BETTER technique for the 40+ ball!

So basically you're saying the african guys are less skilled but "uniquely athletic" lol... gotcha!

bzing
08-10-2016, 01:54 AM
Social justice warriors here they come.

kirua18
08-10-2016, 02:24 AM
Yes Aruna is in very good shape. But OG are not first competition with plastic ball. Since 2014, world championship, world cup and opens were played with plastic ball.

Aruna is a good player, able to huge performances with celluloid or plastic.

TTFrenzy
08-10-2016, 02:31 AM
Hi TTD. Watching the match between Boll and Aruna and several other matches of African players, it got me thinking. This tournament, saw many African players such as Aruna playing incredibly well and could par with the world elite. However, while watching it, it feels like they are much technically inferior to that world elite, their shots are very basic, they seem clumsy at times, but they make it up with great athleticism. I feel like before 40+ there were not many African players, let alone those who won any matches at all and now, with the new plastic ball, less technique is required from them and their unique athletic style has puzzled the minds of many of the world's elite.

Also, the Celluloid ball produces much more spin than the current 40+ plastic ball, Aruna would have not been able to counter against Timos spin during the celluloid ball era like he did yesterday in Rio.

Do you agree? Intersted in your thoughts.

aruna's attitude is really great, attack hard no matter what, timo actually read him well but failed to execute he simply was not there. he got frustrated didnt play with clear mind and when he did it was too late, a few lucky balls from aruna in the 6th set, some unforced errors by timo and aruna won with some smart tactics in the closing points.

ma long refuted quadri's attacks by standing a bit further away from the table when the point was transitioned to a rally which is also his style, boll plays closer to the table but stubbornly maybe, he thought he can countertopspin aruna's rockets and miss after miss the game was almost over in 3-0. even zhang jike had problems doing that in 2014 and won points against aruna simply by blocking.

Aruna's FH is very powerful dont let the weird technique fool you, his recovery is bad on the elite level because of the big unbalanced stroke, sometimes he can topspin hard for a 2nd time due to his great physicality but almost never a 3rd time, especially when the topspin rally changes tempo or placement. chuang chih yuan and boll tried to outpower him with same placements over and over and failed really hard, probably some big ego issues there if you ask me

For me I dont think that the 40 + has anything to do with it, yes boll's topspins would be much better, but same goes for aruna's spin/speed which would be greater

On the contrary, with a bigger ball it is required better technique in overall ability of a stroke because rallies are definitely getting longer. Aruna would be a beast in the era of hidden serves, deception serve followed by hard FH and who cares about technique

I was quite confident that boll would make a comeback because he won his 2 sets quite strong and figured out how to play quadri, but I got to give it to aruna with his smart risky tactics in the end of the 6th game

p.s. also bear in mind that boll has deuced 2 times in 2 consecutive sets being down 10-5 and 10-7 but aruna performed really well in the crucial points. I cant tell if timo underestimated him but for sure he didnt assess the situation well especially in the opening games. after he read the game it was too late

Archosaurus
08-10-2016, 05:50 AM
Lol. Okay.

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 06:02 AM
And people said I was being racist...

I have heard this arguments on mytt as well. People trying to rationalize why Aruna is beating Boll and come up with all kinds of excuses.

People also overthink TT technique sometimes. There is nothing inherently wrong with Aruna's technique. Recovery is forced upon you by the quality of the opposition you play. Aruna is not used to playing against the amount of power and spin he generates. Ma Long plays against that level of power and spin all the time when he hits with Fan Zhendong or Xu Xin. So he knows how to control that ball. If you noticed, Aruna just had issues controlling the ball of Ma Long, forget anything about his forehand or backhand technique. Koki Niwa had similar problems playing against Zhang Jike. It was clear that neither Niwa nor Aruna was used to playing against that spin level.

Musaab
08-10-2016, 09:38 AM
Hi TTD. Watching the match between Boll and Aruna and several other matches of African players, it got me thinking. This tournament, saw many African players such as Aruna playing incredibly well and could par with the world elite. However, while watching it, it feels like they are much technically inferior to that world elite, their shots are very basic, they seem clumsy at times, but they make it up with great athleticism. I feel like before 40+ there were not many African players, let alone those who won any matches at all and now, with the new plastic ball, less technique is required from them and their unique athletic style has puzzled the minds of many of the world's elite.

Also, the Celluloid ball produces much more spin than the current 40+ plastic ball, Aruna would have not been able to counter against Timos spin during the celluloid ball era like he did yesterday in Rio.

Do you agree? Intersted in your thoughts.

You only have one post, and frankly it is not the best one.

TTFrenzy
08-10-2016, 03:04 PM
And people said I was being racist...

I have heard this arguments on mytt as well. People trying to rationalize why Aruna is beating Boll and come up with all kinds of excuses.

People also overthink TT technique sometimes. There is nothing inherently wrong with Aruna's technique. Recovery is forced upon you by the quality of the opposition you play. Aruna is not used to playing against the amount of power and spin he generates. Ma Long plays against that level of power and spin all the time when he hits with Fan Zhendong or Xu Xin. So he knows how to control that ball. If you noticed, Aruna just had issues controlling the ball of Ma Long, forget anything about his forehand or backhand technique. Koki Niwa had similar problems playing against Zhang Jike. It was clear that neither Niwa nor Aruna was used to playing against that spin level.

Whether is forced upon you or not which is 80 % of the times true, its also a matter of philosophy, sometimes the ball will come awkward and high yet aruna still has trouble to get to a relatively easy ball and miss. that is what recover is all about your first shot must be linked to the 2nd one

Now dont get me wrong, its about philosophy im not saying aruna's style is BAD but its definitely not consistent. For me i dont think he had issues controlling, he served many times in ma longs body in purpose and went for BH kill, most of the times he missed (probably stepping on the gas too much with these BH punches) because he knew if the block is good and consistent then ML will start topspins all table and he had no chance, aruna's tactics were quite obvious against everyone, finish the point early and take the lead+psychology advantage

dio_hgw
08-10-2016, 03:59 PM
For me the only thing that matters is winning, having or finding what it takes to win. There's not only one way to play table tennis or a single eternal universal technique for each shot. Training, technique, rules are ever-changing and players need to adjust.
If Aruna was "much technically inferior" he would have lost. Even if we accept such an assumption for debate's sake, that means he was much better in tactics, physical condition, mental preparation, suiting the match to his advantages.
Almost certainly, table tennis history will record Boll as a greater player than Aruna after the end of both careers, but undoubtedly Aruna is a very good player.

slym
08-10-2016, 04:24 PM
And people said I was being racist...

I have heard this arguments on mytt as well. People trying to rationalize why Aruna is beating Boll and come up with all kinds of excuses.

People also overthink TT technique sometimes. There is nothing inherently wrong with Aruna's technique. Recovery is forced upon you by the quality of the opposition you play. Aruna is not used to playing against the amount of power and spin he generates. Ma Long plays against that level of power and spin all the time when he hits with Fan Zhendong or Xu Xin. So he knows how to control that ball. If you noticed, Aruna just had issues controlling the ball of Ma Long, forget anything about his forehand or backhand technique. Koki Niwa had similar problems playing against Zhang Jike. It was clear that neither Niwa nor Aruna was used to playing against that spin level.

So the only thing Aruna needs is to be used to CNT kind of spin and to their rubbers? I'm sorry but this is a pretty much biased opinion, Boll's kind of spin is not sooo inferior to CNT's and he managed to beat him. But ML is just more powerful, place the ball much better, is much faster and does significantly less unforced errors.

The fact is Aruna's technique is inferior to Boll's or Ma Long's one. But its not racist at all to say that, its the same with let's say Kristian Karlsson.

Don't get me wrong, Aruna's performance was awesome in this tournament and I respect the man.

But Ma Long also pointed out something interesting, the fact that players are not used to him, hope that doesnt makes him racist to your eyes :

As an African player, it's not easy that he made it to the quarter-final stage; he was able to defeat Chuang Chih-Yuan and Timo Boll. His forehand and footwork are great, I think also because he doesnt play much internationally, we are not familiar with his playing style and characteristics, that could have surprised his opponents and they couldn't react and adapt in time". Ma Long.

NDH
08-10-2016, 04:33 PM
Perhaps this is more an "Aruna" thing, than an "African" thing.

I agree with a lot of what you have said about his technique being "different" - I wouldn't call it inferior - Inferior techniques don't get to the quarter finals of the Olympics.

Ask yourself this - If Aruna was a Chinese/European/Japanese player - Would these conversations be happening? Or would you simply accept that someone has a different technique, that other people might not be used to (due to not playing as much on tour), and that's where his success came from?

Does Aruna look as polished as Ma Long?

No.....

But does anyone? :)

slym
08-10-2016, 04:37 PM
Of course this conversation would happen, the guy is 40th in the world ranking and you have to admit that his technique, even if effective, is not common. If a european had the same style of play, people would discuss about it either.

But because hes an african we can't say nothing, see how the author got answered lol.

slevin
08-10-2016, 04:39 PM
I think the reason why TB lost to Aruna was a bit different. TB was content to push AQ's serve returns slightly long or flip them softly. That behavior is not done by everyone - just by those (like Samsonov) who have confidence in controlling the opponent's 3rd ball. But TB could not control Aruna's 3rd ball. He lost a lot of points that way.

The Chinese won't play AQ this way - they would either use their tacky FH rubber to push short (engaging AQ in the short game where he is weaker) or perform a strong Chiquita BH.

NDH
08-10-2016, 04:41 PM
Not at all - I think we should be discussing the effectiveness of his technique.

If you feel it's inferior, then that is entirely your own opinion - No one can stop you from having one :)

My point was more the fact you mentioned about him being "African", and basing your argument on that.

As I said in my previous post - This is an "Aruna" debate, it's irrelevant where he comes from.

If there were many other examples of players from Africa who played the same/had the same success with a different technique, then fair enough.

I personally don't know enough about the other African table tennis players to comment - Do you have any videos of them (playing the same as Aruna?)

Ilia Minkin
08-10-2016, 04:45 PM
It is not the new ball it is determination and hard work and... a good wife!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzecYD88xhU

yuri.saldon
08-10-2016, 04:50 PM
I think Aruna go so well because his mental superiority in Olympics.
That OG show me how important is the mental game

Sent from my 2014819 using Tapatalk

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 04:51 PM
Of course this conversation would happen, the guy is 40th in the world ranking and you have to admit that his technique, even if effective, is not common. If a european had the same style of play, people would discuss about it either.

But because hes an african we can't say nothing, see how the author got answered lol.

So how many posts have people opened on Lebesson? Platonov? Or other similarly high level forehands with unique methodology?

slym
08-10-2016, 04:52 PM
I think you confound me with the author, I never talked about africans I stated Ma Long's comment. You can see it on ittf new website.

What I say is that the author was called a racist while he just pointed out the different technique of Aruna, which is pretty indecent in my opinion.

TTFrenzy
08-10-2016, 04:53 PM
Perhaps this is more an "Aruna" thing, than an "African" thing.

I agree with a lot of what you have said about his technique being "different" - I wouldn't call it inferior - Inferior techniques don't get to the quarter finals of the Olympics.

Ask yourself this - If Aruna was a Chinese/European/Japanese player - Would these conversations be happening? Or would you simply accept that someone has a different technique, that other people might not be used to (due to not playing as much on tour), and that's where his success came from?

Does Aruna look as polished as Ma Long?

No.....

But does anyone? :)


For me its not an issue of country at all . I like the scientific approach of technique in TT and many world star players have "Weird" technique if u judge them that way.

Take crisan for example, crappy footwork, crappy rallying abilities BUT excellent ball feeling, excellent placement, pure talent in BH rallies close to the table and variations in BH opening game against push, no spin balls, short long semi long serves you name it.

Steady FH and he always tries to neutralize the point and take advantage of an opponent's poor shot, always trying to fool the opponent in neutral short balls, with flicks, pushes, soft touch and very good imagination on how to open up the rally to his advantage


Crisan's game is quite simple with lots of jedi mind tricks depending on the opponent, something like samsonov but without the rallying ability

Another good player that comes to mind is gustavo tsuboi, weird technique and weird grip of the paddle again but hasnt provided results like aruna. Watch some of his matches he definitely puts up a good fight against some good euro/japan players. From the old era damien eloi comes to mind and the french coach of tristan flore with his BH violin receive cant remember the name right now

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 04:54 PM
Whether is forced upon you or not which is 80 % of the times true, its also a matter of philosophy, sometimes the ball will come awkward and high yet aruna still has trouble to get to a relatively easy ball and miss. that is what recover is all about your first shot must be linked to the 2nd one

Now dont get me wrong, its about philosophy im not saying aruna's style is BAD but its definitely not consistent. For me i dont think he had issues controlling, he served many times in ma longs body in purpose and went for BH kill, most of the times he missed (probably stepping on the gas too much with these BH punches) because he knew if the block is good and consistent then ML will start topspins all table and he had no chance, aruna's tactics were quite obvious against everyone, finish the point early and take the lead+psychology advantage

It is not consistent against whom? Again, the point is that when you have to recover, you either get faster or you measure your shot better. People evolve. If you can't return my forehand, why should I plan to recover? When I see it come back a few times, then I will get into the habit or find said technique.

Given the rallies that Aruna played against most players, the idea that his goal was to finish the point early is fairly ridiculous.

slym
08-10-2016, 04:54 PM
So how many posts have people opened on Lebesson? Platonov? Or other similarly high level forehands with unique methodology?

Lebesson and Platonov didnt reach the Olympics quarter finals, Lebesson can't even win a match in olympics.

Musaab
08-10-2016, 04:58 PM
I think you confound me with the author, I never talked about africans I stated Ma Long's comment. You can see it on ittf new website.

What I say is that the author was called a racist while he just pointed out the different technique of Aruna, which is pretty indecent in my opinion.

The author talked about "African players" and he uses "they" and "their"

TTFrenzy
08-10-2016, 05:01 PM
So how many posts have people opened on Lebesson? Platonov? Or other similarly high level forehands with unique methodology?

oh yeah NL platonov definitely comes to mind. he won gionis two times in euro champs 2013 & 2015


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fhiMbc6PIw mizu in the first two sets had problems handling platonov's opening game imho and if pavel didnt make some unforced errors in the end he would be really close to an upset

slym
08-10-2016, 05:05 PM
It was not clever indeed but I really dont think that it was meant to be racist.

His argument wasnt so bad, african people are more athletic than europeans, which is a really favourable factor, and the poly ball was told to be less spinny and to favour power-based players. I dont see where is the racist part here.

NDH
08-10-2016, 05:06 PM
Sorry Slym - I definitely confused you with the author - I saw the French flag and just assumed (slightly awkward given the racist comments on this thread lol!).

We all need to chill out, remember English isn't most people's first language, and just bloody get on with each other for the sake of Table Tennis.

Is the author racist? Unlikely - Certainly their intention was not racism when the original post was written.

Let's not jump on the smallest of comments and hound people into never posting again.

TTFrenzy
08-10-2016, 05:09 PM
It is not consistent against whom? Again, the point is that when you have to recover, you either get faster or you measure your shot better. People evolve. If you can't return my forehand, why should I plan to recover? When I see it come back a few times, then I will get into the habit or find said technique.

Given the rallies that Aruna played against most players, the idea that his goal was to finish the point early is fairly ridiculous.


It is not consistent in general, in wttc 2015 he lost to soumajit gosh (quite decent player from india, but certainly not on aruna's level imho) in the opening round dont remember the name exactly. Obviously there are many reasons (decision making, wrong assessment of the situation, maybe they underestimated his ability, poor receives on aruna's opening game, stubborness on believing that aruna cant execute a good FH against a body/BH placement shot) why aruna's FH was unreturnable in boll and chuang matches, not only the fact that aruna's FH is devastating.

well how do you explain the fact that most of the points ended, in devastating FH attacks cause by his tactics , but when rallies came along most of the times aruna made mistakes? For sure i didnt count rally by rally all the points , its just the impression I have after a set has ended

Im speaking about the matches against chuang boll and ma long, i didnt watch his games against the other players

slym
08-10-2016, 05:09 PM
Haha no problem man

NDH
08-10-2016, 05:09 PM
It was not clever indeed but I really dont think that it was meant to be racist.

His argument wasnt so bad, african people are more athletic than europeans, which is a really favourable factor, and the poly ball was told to be less spinny and to favour power-based players. I dont see where is the racist part here.

I see where you are going with that, and I understand your thinking (even if it is very flawed) - If that were the case, the small Chinese players wouldn't stand a chance against the more athletic power houses out there.

I personally don't think the poly ball has improved Aruna's chances a huge amount - If anything, his style of play has benefited from it, but that has nothing to do with his athletic ability (in my opinion).

slym
08-10-2016, 05:13 PM
Indeed I don't think that either, Aruna is just improving a lot, poly ball or plastic ball. He's like the ZJK of Nigeria, gives his best in great events.

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 05:30 PM
It is not consistent in general, in wttc 2015 he lost to soumajit gosh (quite decent player from india, but certainly not on aruna's level imho) in the opening round dont remember the name exactly. Obviously there are many reasons (decision making, wrong assessment of the situation, maybe they underestimated his ability, poor receives on aruna's opening game, stubborness on believing that aruna cant execute a good FH against a body/BH placement shot) why aruna's FH was unreturnable in boll and chuang matches, not only the fact that aruna's FH is devastating.

well how do you explain the fact that most of the points ended, in devastating FH attacks cause by his tactics , but when rallies came along most of the times aruna made mistakes? For sure i didnt count rally by rally all the points , its just the impression I have after a set has ended

Im speaking about the matches against chuang boll and ma long, i didnt watch his games against the other players

My impression was very different. I saw Aruna using his athleticism to win the rallies. In fact, Aruna thrives on using his forehand in rallies so your statements are puzzling. In any case, I think we have very different perspectives on Aruna since I watch him closely as a Nigerian and you watch him once in a while. Aruna's backhand used to be so bad that it was easy to exploit. He put in a lot of work the past year. It is only obvious to people who watch him regularly.

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 05:33 PM
Indeed I don't think that either, Aruna is just improving a lot, poly ball or plastic ball. He's like the ZJK of Nigeria, gives his best in great events.


Glad to hear you say it so directly. People do not realize that some of this stuff happened in the Commonwealth games in 2014 in a celluloid ball tournament. The biggest change was that the head of the Nigerian TTF had started encouraging players to play Pro tours. That's part of the reason why Aruna's ranking started to improve as he started seeing how he fared against some of the players he was ranked below. There are many Europeans who will never beat a healthy Boll with any kind of ball. But when Aruna does it, people look for all kinds of excuses.

TTFrenzy
08-10-2016, 05:40 PM
My impression was very different. I saw Aruna using his athleticism to win the rallies. In fact, Aruna thrives on using his forehand in rallies so your statements are puzzling. In any case, I think we have very different perspectives on Aruna since I watch him closely as a Nigerian and you watch him once in a while. Aruna's backhand used to be so bad that it was easy to exploit. He put in a lot of work the past year. It is only obvious to people who watch him regularly.

Acrually i watched aruna in the french league quite a few times but its a differente occasion than olympics. I would dare to say that he has improved alot since april. If i find the time i will watch the match with chuang again to see if my impression is misleading

TTFrenzy
08-10-2016, 05:44 PM
Glad to hear you say it so directly. People do not realize that some of this stuff happened in the Commonwealth games in 2014 in a celluloid ball tournament. The biggest change was that the head of the Nigerian TTF had started encouraging players to play Pro tours. That's part of the reason why Aruna's ranking started to improve as he started seeing how he fared against some of the players he was ranked below. There are many Europeans who will never beat a healthy Boll with any kind of ball. But when Aruna does it, people look for all kinds of excuses.

Health condition is definitely a poor excuse my friend, especially when an injured samsonov manages to beat an inform ovtcharov. I strongly believe that boll could beat aruna even on a bad day with poor health ( i think some people will eat their tongues if boll speaks openly and honestly about the match after the olympics) , but this doesnt take anything away from the fact that aruna totally outsmarted boll&chuang in their game

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 06:34 PM
So the only thing Aruna needs is to be used to CNT kind of spin and to their rubbers? I'm sorry but this is a pretty much biased opinion, Boll's kind of spin is not sooo inferior to CNT's and he managed to beat him. But ML is just more powerful, place the ball much better, is much faster and does significantly less unforced errors.

The fact is Aruna's technique is inferior to Boll's or Ma Long's one. But its not racist at all to say that, its the same with let's say Kristian Karlsson.

Don't get me wrong, Aruna's performance was awesome in this tournament and I respect the man.

But Ma Long also pointed out something interesting, the fact that players are not used to him, hope that doesnt makes him racist to your eyes :

As an African player, it's not easy that he made it to the quarter-final stage; he was able to defeat Chuang Chih-Yuan and Timo Boll. His forehand and footwork are great, I think also because he doesnt play much internationally, we are not familiar with his playing style and characteristics, that could have surprised his opponents and they couldn't react and adapt in time". Ma Long.

Just saw this. Maybe I am oversimplifying what I mean but what I mean is that Aruna needs to play more against these kinds of players. There are too many variables he needs to adapt to vs a regular player.

Ma Long probably doesn't know, like I do, that Quadri and CCY have played before. In that match, CCY beat Aruna so badly that Aruna told Bobrow that CCY bought his own ball and refused to let Aruna play (all figurative speech). I was not even considering the possibility that CCY would lose. But after he beat CCY, and Boll struggled with Shibaev, I had hope for Boll. Aruna had improved a lot of things in his game, his serves especially and his short game. Not CNT level but major improvements. Not as easy to expose as it was before. Boll being a lefty was able to find Aruna's backhand more easily but that match could easily have been 4-1 for Boll as well.

I saw how badly Xu Xin beat Aruna when they played this year. So I wanted to see if Aruna could handle that ball. Immediately he couldn't, I knew it was going to be ugly because Xu Xin showed me already that Aruna's ball is not going to bother CNT players. Fan Zhendong and Ovtcharov loop at least as hard as Aruna.

The Chinese criticize Boll and Mizutani's technique all the time. Boll plays with regular Tenergy 05 spin. Hurricane is a different animal and when you watch Chinese power loopers play Europeans, you can see the difference in how the rubbers facilitate shots.

Why am I saying all this? To make it clear that yes, Ma Long is a far better player. But the gap is more cognitive and experience based than technical. JYS, who many people have been talking about, knew he would have to beat Ma Long to get a medal. Aruna didn't realistically think he would best CCY.. You can't prepare for Ma Long in 24 hours. You just can't.

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 06:43 PM
Health condition is definitely a poor excuse my friend, especially when an injured samsonov manages to beat an inform ovtcharov. I strongly believe that boll could beat aruna even on a bad day with poor health ( i think some people will eat their tongues if boll speaks openly and honestly about the match after the olympics) , but this doesnt take anything away from the fact that aruna totally outsmarted boll&chuang in their game

Some of the things your write betray a level of intemperance that is puzzling. Injury before or after a match is different from injury during the match as that often affects the opponent as well. But in any case, I like your suspicion as it shows the level of respect you hold for Aruna and Boll.

TTFrenzy
08-10-2016, 07:26 PM
I dont know if i understood the meaning of intemperance, had to search it on google & dictionary but all i was trying to say is that boll could beat aruna even if he was in poor physical condition, something that only timo knows for sure not us.

Of course injuries are different but, I was pointing out the urge of some fans/users to explain a favorite losing like this for example "what ? timo boll lost to aruna??? no way how the hell did that happen?? ! there must be something wrong with timo, he had a surgery 11 months ago after all !

same sentimetal approach also is appearing with ZJK ma long xu xin etc etc. when a favorite player lose , there must be something wrong with the favorite, opponent is lower ranked, doesnt have a world title so he is a noob who got lucky and get to beat a world class player"

The reason I used vladi for an example is that, he played great tactics and tried to adapt with the new situation he risked also got a bit lucky and tactics paid off.

if he lost some fans would still say "oh vladi was injured dima got lucky" .

Dima on the other hand played foolishly from set 1, always trying to outpower vladi with strong topspins, urging to finisht the point and lost some relatively easy balls. I cant know if he was affected, his body language seemed relaxed and aggressive but he really threw away some good chances in the last sets with his urge to attack hard

all in all and to wrap it up in one sentece : some people believe what they like to believe, reality is a different thing though.

UpSideDownCarl
08-10-2016, 07:28 PM
It is not the new ball it is determination and hard work and... a good wife!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzecYD88xhU

Wait a minute, in Rocky 1 didn't Rocky's trainer say: "Women weaken legs!" [emoji2]


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 08:10 PM
"I was surprised by his performance."

"Many people would feel amazed at Aruna's performance. No one could believe...and I couldn't believe that he was able to play at this high a level. This was my first time playing him. I am very frustated by the result. I kept trying to adjust but near the end I realized it was already too late. Without a doubt, his performance was impressive."

"His movement and backhand gave me tons of trouble. That was the main reason for my loss today."

"Having lost the singles, I will turn my attention to the team event. Our first opponent is Chinese Taipei, which is going to be a tough match and we will have to give it a lot of effort. If we make it to the final, there is good chance we will face China. Now is the time to prepare." ~ TB

Posted on mytt.

Tornado2016
08-10-2016, 08:12 PM
Why am I saying all this? To make it clear that yes, Ma Long is a far better player. But the gap is more cognitive and experience based than technical.
I think you are not absolutely right on that.

My impression is that a lot of people call Aruna's technique inferior because it is not common. It does not look how you would describe a perfect topspin. However, the key elements such as acceleration in hitting point, power, spin they are all there. Consequently, the technique cannot be bad. Otherwise his shots wouldn't be as effective and powerful as they are. That he has some uncommon moves before and after hitting the ball doesn't matter if he has enough time to get ready for the next shot. So finally, his technique is not worse than of most European players. As you said Boll's technique is far from optimum as well and probably it is one of the better ones in Europe.

But I don't agree with you saying that there is no big technical gap between Chinese players or some other world class players and Aruna. It definitely is. For instance, if you look at Ma Long he always is in the right position, has balance and consistency. It looks as if one shot flows smoothly into the next. Also, his technique is effective in terms of energy consumption. It's similar for all CNT players. In contrast with this, I often get the impression that Aruna almost trips over his own feet. He often lacks stability and is playing on one feet, next to his head or in front of his belly. Every stroke looks different. Of course, in most of the cases he is able to compensate these technical faults with an unbelievable power and athleticism. What makes it more impressive in my eyes. He often has little stability but plays a very hard stroke. Maybe, this is his strenght and weakness at same time because he plays out of such uncommon positions that his opponents are surprised and cannot believe it. Moreover, they are not used to the curve of his uncommon (or unorthodox) technique. Probably, if they play him second or third time they look much better against him. Your argumentation that he only needs some practice with CNT players to adapt to their speed is subjective. I could argue as well that players like Boll or CCY only need some practice with him to adapt to his special style and then he has no more chance to win against them because they have much more variation and experience. They are more complete players.
You cannot overlook that he has some instability and inconsistency only because he compensates it with will, athletics and fighting. It is as someone said before: he plays more like one stroke after another. Playing one and then thinking about the next. Not like Ma Long playing a whole combination. But these combinations are also part of technique.

It's the same with his footwork. Aruna is very, very, very fast. He has so much power in his legs that he can reach almost every ball. Besides this physical strength, as mentioned before, he has this rare talent to play fantastic strokes even if he is not in the best position. And that is one impressive part of his game (and technique if your definition includes that). However, in terms of technique his footwork is bad. It seems as if the lacks some kind of coordination. Examples: standing on one foot, stumbling, moving looks more than this of a 100 metres sprinter than of a table tennis player, weight on the wrong foot, ... In my opinion, this is also the reason why he has no chance against Ma Long and CNT. They are playing that fast that he is not able anymore, to compensate his technical faults in footwork with his physical strength. When Ma Long was blocking down the line in his FH or playing counter topspin he sometimes wasn't even able to make one further step in that direction. Not only because Ma Long played faster than he is used to, but also because his technique crashed at that speed. And I think it is not enough to practice with higher speed or against Hurricane rubbers. To be competitive with Ma Long he would have to change technical aspects of his game. Because with his current style there is a limit of how much speed he can handle.

As I said before I am not saying that his technique is bad. That's not what this paragraph is about. It is great and not worse than most other players. Most players have similar problems facing the CNT. But saying that there is no big gap to Chinese technique is ridiculous in my eyes. CNT members are not only playing faster because of their rubbers. The rubbers might have an impact but it is also because they have a better technique. I had three Chinese coaches during my life. All of them had so much more knowledge about technique than every German coach I met. It was unbelievable.

Anyway, all that doesn't matter because technique isn't everything. Putting all factors together (tactics, technique, physical strength, will, nerves, ...) Aruna is a very good player. He improved a lot - especially his backhand and receives - and had some fantastic performances at Rio. Thus, his great results were well-deserved. He has a fresh style of playing and the spectators like him a lot. Therefore, I hope he will play on that level more often. I enjoy watching him.

Refering to the beginning of the thread: this is no cultural or African thing. It is his personal style and it has nothing to do with 40+ ball.

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 08:14 PM
Some tidbits.


"Playing the way you did is definitely no good. Wake up! Stop spacing out already! There's no spacing out in the arena. Get yourself going! This is the THE Olympics! It's already started. Got it?" LGL told ZJK after the 1st game against Koki Niwa.


"Finishing my Rio journey as a quarter-finalist. I've got no regret."

"Ma Long is my idol."

"I picked up the table tennis racket for the first time when I was seven. Never have I thought I would be able to stand in the arena of a quarterfinal match right here today. I'll keep on playing until the day I couldn't move." ~ Quadri Aruna


"It's no easy feat to make the quarterfinal as an African player. His wins over CCY and TB mean he's got his own unique traits. I feel that my preparations for this match were pretty comprehensive. His biggest weapon is his very impressive forehand, as well as his footwork and mid-distance play." ~ Ma Long


"Utter defeat. I've tried everything but simply couldn't fend off her high-quality winners."

"My opponent had the advantage on all fronts whether it be quality of attacks or quality of returns. Her sheer power is higher than every opponent I faced. Just out of the world. I tried hard to carry out my game plan, but I kept missing, unfortunately. Simply outclassed."

"The LXX now has already surpassed the then Zhang Yining. I was convincingly defeated." ~ Ai Fukuhara

More quotes.

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 08:27 PM
I think you are not absolutely right on that.

My impression is that a lot of people call Aruna's technique inferior because it is not common. It does not look how you would describe a perfect topspin. However, the key elements such as acceleration in hitting point, power, spin they are all there. Consequently, the technique cannot be bad. Otherwise his shots wouldn't be as effective and powerful as they are. That he has some uncommon moves before and after hitting the ball doesn't matter if he has enough time to get ready for the next shot. So finally, his technique is not worse than of most European players. As you said Boll's technique is far from optimum as well and probably it is one of the better ones in Europe.

But I don't agree with you saying that there is no big technical gap between Chinese players or some other world class players and Aruna. It definitely is. For instance, if you look at Ma Long he always is in the right position, has balance and consistency. It looks as if one shot flows smoothly into the next. Also, his technique is effective in terms of energy consumption. It's similar for all CNT players. In contrast with this, I often get the impression that Aruna almost trips over his own feet. He often lacks stability and is playing on one feet, next to his head or in front of his belly. Every stroke looks different. Of course, in most of the cases he is able to compensate these technical faults with an unbelievable power and athleticism. What makes it more impressive in my eyes. He often has little stability but plays a very hard stroke. Maybe, this is his strenght and weakness at same time because he plays out of such uncommon positions that his opponents are surprised and cannot believe it. Moreover, they are not used to the curve of his uncommon (or unorthodox) technique. Probably, if they play him second or third time they look much better against him. Your argumentation that he only needs some practice with CNT players to adapt to their speed is subjective. I could argue as well that players like Boll or CCY only need some practice with him to adapt to his special style and then he has no more chance to win against them because they have much more variation and experience. They are more complete players.
You cannot overlook that he has some instability and inconsistency only because he compensates it with will, athletics and fighting. It is as someone said before: he plays more like one stroke after another. Playing one and then thinking about the next. Not like Ma Long playing a whole combination. But these combinations are also part of technique.

It's the same with his footwork. Aruna is very, very, very fast. He has so much power in his legs that he can reach almost every ball. Besides this physical strength, as mentioned before, he has this rare talent to play fantastic strokes even if he is not in the best position. And that is one impressive part of his game (and technique if your definition includes that). However, in terms of technique his footwork is bad. It seems as if the lacks some kind of coordination. Examples: standing on one foot, stumbling, moving looks more than this of a 100 metres sprinter than of a table tennis player, weight on the wrong foot, ... In my opinion, this is also the reason why he has no chance against Ma Long and CNT. They are playing that fast that he is not able anymore, to compensate his technical faults in footwork with his physical strength. When Ma Long was blocking down the line in his FH or playing counter topspin he sometimes wasn't even able to make one further step in that direction. Not only because Ma Long played faster than he is used to, but also because his technique crashed at that speed. And I think it is not enough to practice with higher speed or against Hurricane rubbers. To be competitive with Ma Long he would have to change technical aspects of his game. Because with his current style there is a limit of how much speed he can handle.

As I said before I am not saying that his technique is bad. That's not what this paragraph is about. It is great and not worse than most other players. Most players have similar problems facing the CNT. But saying that there is no big gap to Chinese technique is ridiculous in my eyes. CNT members are not only playing faster because of their rubbers. The rubbers might have an impact but it is also because they have a better technique. I had three Chinese coaches during my life. All of them had so much more knowledge about technique than every German coach I met. It was unbelievable.


I think my careless statements make it unclear what I am saying. Ma Long will beat Aruna 40 times out of 40. But Aruna was playing at a level where it is reasonable to expect that he could have given someone like Dima or Freitas or Samsonov an interesting match. If you read my first post on the Olympics thread eirher here or on mytt about this match before it was played, the first thing I said that whenever i watch the Chinese play Aruna, the first thing I see is how technically sound they are (and I then gave kudos to JYS that this was the biggest reveal of the match vs Ma Long).

But when I look at the match, it was not just the technical issues that were in play. The first rule of table tennis shoes that our have to be able to put the ball on the table. Aruna basically gave up on counterlooping Ma Long's ball after a few tries. Can you imagine Timo Boll or Dima giving up in counterlooping Ma Long's ball? No, because they have done it before.

That was what I was trying to explain. At the top level, players get by mostly on special talents not technique. Anyone who thinks that Ma Long had some special technique that isn't found in other Chinese players is free to believe whatever. What makes Ma Long special is not something you can copy. Same with Aruna.

I was speaking in the context of why it looked like Ma Long did not belong on the same table.

There is precedent for this. JYS has been improving his results steadily vs Ma Long. So have Dima and Freitas (I am staying in the plastic ball era). You have to be able to play with that level to hang with it. What I saw was someone who just didn't know what to do with that level. In other words, I was saying that the match result was worse than the differences in player ability would predict. And if you want to put it down to stroke technique, fine. I have given my own informed opinion.

Tornado2016
08-10-2016, 08:36 PM
I see what you mean

Tony's Table Tennis
08-10-2016, 09:35 PM
As a coach based in Africa, I can say lots of kids hear get bought up with bad technique, but still can do well.
They simply just don't have enough international exposure to really get BMT (big match temperament)

I think I understand the OP - it is not racist, but rather, is the new ball the cause of these sudden rises from weaker players? and to link with that, the sudden fall of top players?

Speed glue era - there was a shift
40mm ball - there was a shift
40+ ball - I still believe there is a shift.
Ball is getting slower and has less spin = more time for players to return the ball, with less power and spin = giving weaker player more chance on getting the ball back = a chance to beat better players.

Aruna simply has a lot of power, he moves fast, and can produce a high quality shot in awkard situations. His technique is bad in text book terms, but then again, many players are not used to deal with his type of play. I see CCY having bad strategy (not skill or technique) and TB did better, but simply wasn't comfortable enough.

Anyways, I don't want my post to be about strategy or Aruna, but rather I do feel that 40+ ball has a lot to do with shift of weaker players to beat top players.
On the same token, Aruna is also getting more exposure, more support, and he is also improving.

PS, he is not the first bad technique player, and he will not be the last. There was Mr Kreanga, with that backhand - how he got it back so powerful and consistence - I don't know how to teach that :)

NextLevel
08-10-2016, 11:01 PM
"Facing this type of player, the 2nd game is crucial, but I couldn't take it down after a see-saw battle. By the time I regained my composure, his chi(morale) had already built up."

He feels that Aruna is not difficult to play, but he didn't play well on some shots that were over his expectations, which had a negative effect on his mental game.

"Until now, I feel that if we are to play again, I will come out victorious."

"I was fourth last time. I aimed to reach higher this time, but this is what competition is about. There are still areas where my abilities lack."

"This was not the result I expected, but I feel at peace."

As to the team event, "Most of all, I will review my mental issue to better prepare for situations that are not within my expectations." ~ CCY

By the way, for people who do not know, CCY had beaten Aruna 4-0 the first time they played. The beating was so bad that Aruna told Bobrow that he felt like CCY just didn't let him play his game.

TTFrenzy
08-11-2016, 12:35 AM
It is not consistent against whom? Again, the point is that when you have to recover, you either get faster or you measure your shot better. People evolve. If you can't return my forehand, why should I plan to recover? When I see it come back a few times, then I will get into the habit or find said technique.

Given the rallies that Aruna played against most players, the idea that his goal was to finish the point early is fairly ridiculous.

NL, I just watched the FULL game against chuang again and I feel I should rephrase my assessment on aruna's winning points. I admit that I was not accurate enough to explain thoroughly

Out of the 60 -70 total points in the game there were 7-8 rallies ( 2 or more topspin from both player exchanges or topspin vs block, 2 topspins or more and 2 blocks or more again)

I dont consider a rally the opening phase, serve receive and push exchanges. Most of the points won by aruna were build up by placement pushes, short long and sideswipe that cause weak returns from chuang and a devastating FH from aruna

I also dont consider a rally 1 topspin vs 1 weak block and then one hard topspin that finishes the point, that for me is not a rally that is aruna taking the initiative caused by his tactics and attacking hard, and chuang trying to save his ass desperately.

A rally for me is exchanges as described above AND that the players have equal or almost equal chances to win it and the initiative is not clear on which player holds it.

U seem to be misunderstanding my statements, whats wrong with finishing of the point with a hard topspin if u can? It is his style of play, especially against chuang where if the 1st topspin was not enough the 2nd was for sure in 95 % of the points that aruna won and had the initiative

So can facts be fairly ridiculous? Watch his match against ma long again and tell me if the plan of aruna is to try to rally with ma long, as for chuang his receives against aruna's opening pushes (opening for a rally i mean) were so bad, there was no need for a rally. 1 or 2 hard topspins and the point was over

p.s. to be fair about terminology one could consider a rally : 1. the exchanges after the serve occurs, but then again we are not addressing here the scientific approach of rules in TT or 2. ma long smashing hard against mizutani who is 5678 meters away from the table, especially no 2. for me : is one player attacking and the other desperately defending hoping the attacker makes a mistake.

a rally could also be considered two players lobbying against each other o_O

UpSideDownCarl
08-11-2016, 02:09 AM
I don't know, I feel like adding one thing.

A guy like Jun Mizutani has this special skill of being able to track down what seems like EVERYTHING. He gets to and returns some amazing shots that I would never think he would get to.

Is this technique or special skill? I don't know. But when they changed to the 40+ Poly ball, from the celluloid ball, his world ranking had been dropping slowly for a while. I think he dropped to something like 12. I can't remember but he was out of the top 10.

As soon as the Poly ball started being used in International play, his world ranking stormed right up to 5 and for a while, nobody outside of the CNT could beat the guy and nobody outside of the CNT players could get the ball past him.

Was this because the Poly Ball somehow allowed his inferior technique to compete against players with better technique. NO WAY!!!!!

This was because of his special skill (or is it technique) of being able to get to so many balls and give quality returns that present his opponent a challenge. Right now I am thinking of that year's Grand Tour Finals where Jun Mizutani took care of Dima Ovtcharov. It was a great match. But the whole time I just had the feeling that Dima just couldn't put the ball past Jun and couldn't win.

Now, Aruna has a similar kind of special skill. There are REALLY times where he gets to balls I would never imagine he could reach. Right now I am thinking of one of those points in Aruna's match with ZJK in the 2014 World Cup where ZJK ran Aruna DEEP, I mean DEEEEEEEP, to the FH and did a touch shot to the center off his return. There was no way I thought Aruna would get to the ball and neither did ZJK who seemed to have gone to sleep after dropping the ball to the short center. But Aruna got there, and made a great shot too.

The guy is fun to watch and darn exciting as a result of this special skill. Did the Poly ball allow Aruna's special skill to shine a little more than it would have with the celluloid ball? It may have. But not much. No matter which way you look at it. The guy is awesome fun to watch and has an uncanny ability to track down bombs launched from any missile launcher out there. But man Ma Long has some serious firepower!!!

And Aruna is playing great because he is playing great. The amount of improvement he has shown since the 2014 World Cup speaks for itself. So the idea of talking about this as though for some reason the Poly ball allows players with inferior technique to win against players that are simply better misses the point of how many things Aruna is doing well; wait, not just well, but spectacularly.

I promise you, if I played Ma Long with all my special skillzzzz, I would do almost as well as Aruna but only because of the Poly ball and me getting Ma Long to play with a blindfold on. [emoji2]

Now you can all throw tomatoes at me. But let's stop throwing around accusations of racism. Please.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Tony's Table Tennis
08-11-2016, 11:10 PM
Also remember, teams study players.
Aruna is "new threat" by destroying 2 giants, so going forward, all teams will study him more.
It won't be an easy journey for Aruna vs the Germans, French, Portuguese and Asians going forward

Imo, a flawed technique will always come back and bite you.
Or simply, a limitation of technique will always become a problem one day.
It just needs to be exploit and there are very good minds nowadays to do that.

CCY to me was very disappointing, his brother also didn't change his strategy much
ML strategy didn't give Aruna a chance to play his strengths, and this is what table tennis is all about.
Aruna is still going to be a tier 2 player, and not a top 10, 15 or 20.
But it is always fun to watch upsets happen

NextLevel
08-12-2016, 05:48 AM
NL, I just watched the FULL game against chuang again and I feel I should rephrase my assessment on aruna's winning points. I admit that I was not accurate enough to explain thoroughly

Out of the 60 -70 total points in the game there were 7-8 rallies ( 2 or more topspin from both player exchanges or topspin vs block, 2 topspins or more and 2 blocks or more again)

I dont consider a rally the opening phase, serve receive and push exchanges. Most of the points won by aruna were build up by placement pushes, short long and sideswipe that cause weak returns from chuang and a devastating FH from aruna

I also dont consider a rally 1 topspin vs 1 weak block and then one hard topspin that finishes the point, that for me is not a rally that is aruna taking the initiative caused by his tactics and attacking hard, and chuang trying to save his ass desperately.

A rally for me is exchanges as described above AND that the players have equal or almost equal chances to win it and the initiative is not clear on which player holds it.

U seem to be misunderstanding my statements, whats wrong with finishing of the point with a hard topspin if u can? It is his style of play, especially against chuang where if the 1st topspin was not enough the 2nd was for sure in 95 % of the points that aruna won and had the initiative

So can facts be fairly ridiculous? Watch his match against ma long again and tell me if the plan of aruna is to try to rally with ma long, as for chuang his receives against aruna's opening pushes (opening for a rally i mean) were so bad, there was no need for a rally. 1 or 2 hard topspins and the point was over

p.s. to be fair about terminology one could consider a rally : 1. the exchanges after the serve occurs, but then again we are not addressing here the scientific approach of rules in TT or 2. ma long smashing hard against mizutani who is 5678 meters away from the table, especially no 2. for me : is one player attacking and the other desperately defending hoping the attacker makes a mistake.

a rally could also be considered two players lobbying against each other o_O

Your post is funny to me. It is almost like you are writing about another sport. There is no really rallying in modern table tennis. Everyone is playing for 3rd ball or 5th ball attack. The average length of points during most TT matches is 3-4 shots.

The point is whether a player is avoiding the rally or is losing more than his fair share of rally points. My point is that Aruna is taking what he gets. He is not afraid of counterlooping exchanges and did not lose them more often than not vs CCY or Boll. Nothing you have said changes that. If you think that because someone is playing third ball table tennis that he is avoiding rallies, then I think you need to rethink that.

NextLevel
08-12-2016, 05:52 AM
Also remember, teams study players.
Aruna is "new threat" by destroying 2 giants, so going forward, all teams will study him more.
It won't be an easy journey for Aruna vs the Germans, French, Portuguese and Asians going forward

Imo, a flawed technique will always come back and bite you.
Or simply, a limitation of technique will always become a problem one day.
It just needs to be exploit and there are very good minds nowadays to do that.

CCY to me was very disappointing, his brother also didn't change his strategy much
ML strategy didn't give Aruna a chance to play his strengths, and this is what table tennis is all about.
Aruna is still going to be a tier 2 player, and not a top 10, 15 or 20.
But it is always fun to watch upsets happen

ML beat Zhang Jike almost as badly as he beat Aruna. CCY beat Aruna really badly earlier this year, so this is not about CCY playing someone he did not know. Even as people prepare for Aruna (and they did), the truth is that Aruna needs to play more top level players to get used to that speed and pace of play. He is already 28, but people sometimes place too much value on technique and too little value on actually playing and learning to adapt to a certain pace of game. I think Ma Long's ball quality and control was too high for Aruna but Aruna will also improve as long as he is healthy from learning to control that quality of ball.

TTFrenzy
08-12-2016, 12:34 PM
Your post is funny to me. It is almost like you are writing about another sport. There is no really rallying in modern table tennis. Everyone is playing for 3rd ball or 5th ball attack. The average length of points during most TT matches is 3-4 shots.

The point is whether a player is avoiding the rally or is losing more than his fair share of rally points. My point is that Aruna is taking what he gets. He is not afraid of counterlooping exchanges and did not lose them more often than not vs CCY or Boll. Nothing you have said changes that. If you think that because someone is playing third ball table tennis that he is avoiding rallies, then I think you need to rethink that.

dude you are constantly misinterpreting my statements. I never said he is playing 3rd ball TT BECAUSE he is avoiding rallies. seriously thats ridiculous. my posts are here read them again, i said what i said.

I never said he LOST more rallies I said u wont see him attacking hard for the 3RD time with his FH. seriously im out its pointless to explain the obvious

p.s. since you like to discuss with valid arguements you seem to be nitpicking your replies. didnt see any replies on my other questions . hf

Archosaurus
08-12-2016, 01:49 PM
Can you guys stop the autism and just settle on the fact that you're not Aruna nor are you his coach, so you don't exactly know what's going on and why he does what he does?

Good analysis can be made and has been made, but what the **** is this.

UpSideDownCarl
08-04-2019, 11:59 AM
All jokes aside, if you have ever seen Jesse Owens defying Hitler in Berlin in 1936 with his gold medal performances, its pretty incredible to watch, consider and reflect upon. The Olympic ideal, huh?

Is there a reason you woke up this old thread? The last time anyone posted in this thread before you was 3 years ago.