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rahul
09-01-2011, 12:46 PM
Hi guys,
Any one who knows to play against an anti spin player please give me some tactics. And is it true when we serve a fast no spin serve is it hard to take for the anti spin player???:confused:Looking for your advise..:):):)

Matt Hetherington
09-01-2011, 02:10 PM
No problems! I had 2 antispin players in my club growing up as a junior. There are multiple tactics you can use:

-Base no spin tactics: If you don't give them any spin to work with they are not able to generate much of their own, so as you mentioned long no spin serves are more difficult for antispin players to do anything with. Also playing short float pushes can sometimes pop the ball up for an easy attack. This is one tactic which you can use or mix with others.

-Control topspin: Another option is to use slow controlled topspin, an antispin player will chop all day long given the opportunity, this serves the purpose of wearing you down or forcing a mistake. As with many normal rubber tactics placement and consistency is important and spin variation! If you can make them move around and wear them down you will have an advantage, also aim for body then wings, try and force errors.

-Depth tactic: This is based around footwork and works against many choppers and is a common tactic, when attacking against antispin chop, try and press them back from the table then play a push to draw them back in, this may force errors or cause them to pop the ball up. It just adds uncertainty really, antispin players like to build rhythm and large amounts of variation will really cause them problems.

-Attack strong: The other tactic of course is to try and hit through them, this might involve spinning the first ball up and then trying to drive the second ball harder to a different place on the table. It is a harder tactic to achieve and can be frustrating to keep trying if you continue failing.

All in all variation of placement and spin will be your biggest weapon against an antispin player, try and combine these tactics and see if it helps.

Good luck and remember be patient and thoughtful when playing, frustration will only force more errors which is what the antispin player wants. Oh and remember backspin play is easier for them to attack so try to be careful when pushing.

YosuaYosan
09-01-2011, 02:12 PM
I have an anti player friend.
His anti (Yaska Anti-Power) is on the backhand side.
Yes, sometimes a fast no spin serve (little topspin) will cause trouble, but against experienced anti player it won't help much.

My main tactic against anti players is to send a fast medium-heavy underspin push to the anti side and loop kill the little topspin return.
Placement also play an important role here.
I think thats all ;)

MrRothhaendle
09-01-2011, 02:30 PM
To keep up a consistent game, you gotta try the combination:
Long dead serve
CONTROLLED opening top-spin into his BH
The ball will return with backspin, than you'll just push it
Than again CONTROLLED top-spin into his BH

Repeat it a few times until there is a chance of killing the ball.
The point is: KEEP IT UP, be patient
Your chances will come, for sure. In this tactic you will feel really comfortable, because you do not make a lot of mistakes and get into your rhythm quickly

Another alternative:
Fast top-spin serve into the ankles of the table (watch out: the ball will return with backspin)
Hard attack into the FH

(It's really risky, but works out for me :) )

poltery
09-02-2011, 09:34 AM
No problems! I had 2 antispin players in my club growing up as a junior. There are multiple tactics you can use:

-Base no spin tactics: If you don't give them any spin to work with they are not able to generate much of their own, so as you mentioned long no spin serves are more difficult for antispin players to do anything with. Also playing short float pushes can sometimes pop the ball up for an easy attack. This is one tactic which you can use or mix with others.

-Control topspin: Another option is to use slow controlled topspin, an antispin player will chop all day long given the opportunity, this serves the purpose of wearing you down or forcing a mistake. As with many normal rubber tactics placement and consistency is important and spin variation! If you can make them move around and wear them down you will have an advantage, also aim for body then wings, try and force errors.

-Depth tactic: This is based around footwork and works against many choppers and is a common tactic, when attacking against antispin chop, try and press them back from the table then play a push to draw them back in, this may force errors or cause them to pop the ball up. It just adds uncertainty really, antispin players like to build rhythm and large amounts of variation will really cause them problems.

-Attack strong: The other tactic of course is to try and hit through them, this might involve spinning the first ball up and then trying to drive the second ball harder to a different place on the table. It is a harder tactic to achieve and can be frustrating to keep trying if you continue failing.

All in all variation of placement and spin will be your biggest weapon against an antispin player, try and combine these tactics and see if it helps.

Good luck and remember be patient and thoughtful when playing, frustration will only force more errors which is what the antispin player wants. Oh and remember backspin play is easier for them to attack so try to be careful when pushing.
wow sir matt nice post this will help me with one of my rivals :)

UpSideDownCarl
09-02-2011, 12:41 PM
All the advice above sounds pretty solid. The thing with anti-spin that is worth understanding is that, you need to practice against it enough to get used to what will come back and to get used to watching the which rubber your anti-spin opponent is using. A lot of good anti-spin players also flip (twiddle) their blade face. If you stop paying attention and they flip from one side to the other, you could miss seeing what spin is coming at you. As you get used to anti-spin, a nice way of thinking about it is this: if they use their anti-spin side, you are controlling the spin that will come at you. So the actual question is: how do you use this to your advantage.

Well, if you like hitting against topspin, you should give underspin. If you like hitting or, really, looping, against underspin you should give topspin. If you want the ball to come back slow, server short and slow. If you want the ball to come back faster serve faster.

Here are some things that I like to do.

1) I like to keep the ball in play, being patient and waiting for a ball I can put away and end the point. To do this, you have to be comfortable letting the rally go longer while playing against an anti-spin player. That means you have to have played a decent amount against anti-spin. I like control looping, so that, the shots coming back to me from the anti-spin have a consistent amount of underspin. Then I just keep looping the underspin knowing that I will eventually get something I can really rip and end the point.

2) I have realized, the way I play, I do not like facing short, low, heavy topspin, so I have no intention of giving short serves that have heavy underspin to an anti-spin player. But if someone gives me a short ball that is light underspin, I love attacking that. So, if I want light underspin, I give short light topspin serves that are disguised to look like underspin. Often that also means I can get my anti-spin opponent to give me something high and slow if I disguise the serve well.

3) I might not like topspin that is short and low, but I love topspin that is long regardless of whether it is slow or fast. So: fast, long underspin serves are going to come back as topspin and if it is a good fast serve, it will be hard for your anti-spin opponent to keep those returns short and low. So that is another way of getting a good attack. However, you have to be careful with this, because, if you give a player who has anti-spin any underspin ball, when they hit it back it is a topspin, and they do not have to worry too much about hitting it into the net, so, a good anti-spin player will probably just attack that if they realize what it is. If it has a lot of underspin it could come back with heavy topspin (a loop). So you have to use the element of surprise with this one and have some long fast dead ball serves and long fast topspin serves that all look similar so they are not exactly sure what spin is coming at them. If you served it, you should know what spin you put on your serves so you should know what spin is coming to you.

4) Fast dead serves might not give a good anti-spin player much trouble in terms of returning them. However, when a dead ball serve comes back off of anti-spin, it is not going to have much spin. If you know how to attack dead balls, this could give you an easy set up to attack and end the point.

For me, once I am past the serve and receive part, and I am in the rally, I like using control loops and trying to keep my opponent using his anti-spin side. If I do that, the spin that is coming back to me is fairly consistent so eventually I will get something to attack and put away. The advantage when you play an anti-spin player is that, if they use their anti-spin side, you are determining the spin they put on the ball. You just have to hit with anti-spin players enough to get used to this. When you do, it is also worth experimenting with sidespin serves because you need to know what will come back at you if you use a sidespin serve. And just like when you hit topspin or underspin at anti-spin what comes back at you is counterintuitive. So if you have not seen it enough to get used to it, it could cause you some problems.

When you hit topspin, what comes back is underspin. When you hit underspin what comes back is topspin. But when you hit sidespin at anti-spin, what comes back is THE SAME sidespin. So, if you do a regular pendulum serve, and you give side spin that causes the ball to curve towards the backhand of your opponent (right handed player), when the ball comes back, it will curve towards your backhand also (right handed player). If you are good at attacking serves that have a lot of sidespin without top or underspin, it can be a good tactic also as long as you have seen how much sidespin your serves are going to come back with, and as long as you have seen this enough times to be used to it, before you try this in a match. But the ball is going to curve on you if you have a lot of sidespin. An advantage to this, a sidespin ball that does not have almost any topspin or underspin is easy to attack provided you know how to deal with the sidespin that is coming at you. If you do not, stay away from heavy sidespin until you do. :)

It is absolutely true that, if you mix up the spins and keep giving variations, you can get an anti-spin player to mess up. It is a good tactic. The reason I use this for serve and receive but not if my opponent gets past my third ball attack, is, I have found I am not good enough to deal with all those variations of spin that come back to me. :) So, sometimes I mess myself up before I get to mess my opponent up. :) So for me, I know, once I am deeper into the rally, if I can keep moving my opponent around and keep the spin that is coming back to me as consistent as possible, I will get balls to put away and end the point.

Justchill
09-02-2011, 01:27 PM
No problems! I had 2 antispin players in my club growing up as a junior. There are multiple tactics you can use:

-Base no spin tactics: If you don't give them any spin to work with they are not able to generate much of their own, so as you mentioned long no spin serves are more difficult for antispin players to do anything with. Also playing short float pushes can sometimes pop the ball up for an easy attack. This is one tactic which you can use or mix with others.

-Control topspin: Another option is to use slow controlled topspin, an antispin player will chop all day long given the opportunity, this serves the purpose of wearing you down or forcing a mistake. As with many normal rubber tactics placement and consistency is important and spin variation! If you can make them move around and wear them down you will have an advantage, also aim for body then wings, try and force errors.

-Depth tactic: This is based around footwork and works against many choppers and is a common tactic, when attacking against antispin chop, try and press them back from the table then play a push to draw them back in, this may force errors or cause them to pop the ball up. It just adds uncertainty really, antispin players like to build rhythm and large amounts of variation will really cause them problems.

-Attack strong: The other tactic of course is to try and hit through them, this might involve spinning the first ball up and then trying to drive the second ball harder to a different place on the table. It is a harder tactic to achieve and can be frustrating to keep trying if you continue failing.

All in all variation of placement and spin will be your biggest weapon against an antispin player, try and combine these tactics and see if it helps.

Good luck and remember be patient and thoughtful when playing, frustration will only force more errors which is what the antispin player wants. Oh and remember backspin play is easier for them to attack so try to be careful when pushing.

Don't stick to just one tactic, do all this together. And the most important thing.... be very very patient :)

WiWa
09-02-2011, 01:54 PM
When I play against players with pips or anti spin, I try to keep the rallies short and simple. Serve fast long serves into the weird rubber and attack agressively after that. Usually they can't really launch a proper attack from a no-spin ball, so thats a good start of the rally. Play short and they will send you all around the centre-court though. Consider it a looping practise :P

rahul
09-03-2011, 02:36 AM
Thanks for all of your advise. Gonna try it:)

moriguchi2
09-03-2011, 05:35 AM
stay close to the table and play aggresive. take the ball at the peak. very important is to be patient and let the ball bounce and come to you.

azlan
09-04-2011, 03:35 PM
Hi Rahul, Carl was right when he mentioned about twiddling.. Experience players do a lot of twiddling, so be on your toes all the time. And since I used anti when I started playing in the 80's, I would also like to highlight that they also love to flick the short balls, especially the ones about net high of higher. So, as Wiwa and Moriguchi said, attack whenever you can...and just lift the ball if you think it's coming back with a heavy backspin, and start again. Good luck buddy.

moriguchi2
09-05-2011, 12:45 AM
and if u get a person who gets in push rallies with the anti, u have to put ur own back sping cus they give you dead

Mr. RicharD
10-24-2011, 09:58 PM
As I understand it anti spin rubbers typically don't reverse spin they simply cancel or lower the amount producing varying dead balls. I have some students of Danny Seemiller at my local clubs and they always explain it as the ball simply being caught and lowering the angle of the shot. Producing dead balls to them can force a lot of errors when they use the anti because the ball won't have any momentum to rebound across the net.

I'm not too sure about what anti does, but I just attack their backhands and then drop short. I haven't really met many anti players that were "high" level players. My thoughts are that you really have to understand your own game when playing deceptive players. If you know what you give to your opponent then you can calculate the likelihood that they will return with the opposite (LP), similar (inverted), or dead (anti/sp).

UpSideDownCarl
10-25-2011, 04:09 PM
It is worth understanding how Anti-Spin and Long Pips work. There are great articles on About.com on how they work, how to use them and how to play against them.

Here is a link to one of them: http://tabletennis.about.com/od/antispin/a/playagainstanti.htm

From that one you can find links to all the rest. They are written by Greg Letts and they are high quality information.

Here is the simplest of information. These rubbers do not change the spin so much. You could think of them as supper dead rubbers. They have almost no grip, almost no friction.

If you took a ball and hit it against a wall or against a verticle surface that is smooth like the surface of a Ping Pong Table, when the ball comes back it will have the same spin you put on it but it will be going in the opposite direction so it will seem as though the spin has been reversed. Here is an example. If I hit underspin at that vertical surface when the ball comes back it would be topspin. If I hit topspin it will come back as underspin. The more spin I put on the ball, the more spin comes back. But the ball coming back will have a little less spin than what I put on the ball because the contact with that vertical surface will slow the spin down a little and so will the fact that the ball has been in flight.

The direction of the spin has not changed, the direction of the ball is what has changed. Say you take a ball and you have that ball moving from point A to point B and it has topspin: Now if you do not change the spin, but have that same ball change directions so that now it is going from point B to point A because the ball is rotating in the same direction as it was, but it is now moving in the opposite direction, that spin would now be underspin.

There are many different versions of Anti Spin. Some have a little more friction. Some have a little less. Some Anti Spin rubbers slow the spin down considerably. Some almost completely stop the spin. Some have very little friction and only slow the spin down a little. So different types of Anti Spin rubber have different effects. Then there is the sponge. With the sponge, how you contact the ball could cause the ball's spin to change less with lighter contact, or more when you get the ball to sink more deeply into the sponge with heavier contact. So if you were using Anti Spin, and a person gave you heavy underspin you could give them back medium topspin, light topspin or dead depending on how you contact the ball. But, if they gave you heavy underspin you would not really be able to give them back heavy underspin with the Anti Spin side of your racket. The best you could do is slow their spin down.

Creating these variations in spin does take technique and skill.

Long Pips are more complicated. The name Long Pips is sort of inaccurate. What it means is that the pimples are longer than they are wide. With Long Pips you have much more of an ability to vary the spin on the ball. The reason is that those long thin pimples can bend; and to top it off, you can use them without sponge or with any thickness of sponge you choose.

So the surface of the pimples is similar to the surface of an Anti Spin rubber, except it is pimples not smooth. If you make lighter touch contact so the ball only touches the tops of the pips, what you get is very similar to what you get from Anti Spin. However, if you make heavier contact, the pips bend and then to ball contacts the sides of the pimples. The sides of the pimples have friction and can grip the ball. When you do this, the pimples unbend while the ball is still in contact with them and this can increase the spin that you are putting on the ball if you are going with the spin that came at you. In other words when you are using Long Pips and someone gives you a heavy loop, you can chop heavy and give the opponent back their spin and some more of your own making it an extremely heavy chop. A good Long Pips player can take any topspin shot you give them and make it:

1) dead,
2) light underspin,
3) about the same amount of spin you gave them coming back as underspin or
4) make the underspin even heavier.

To do this takes a lot of good technique and skill in using the Long Pips because it is subtle stuff that has to do with your stroke, the quality of your stroke, and how you contact the ball.

For the smooth rubber player, you have to watch every detail to distinguish between the dead balls, the mild underspin and the heavier underspin. For the Anti Spin or Long Pips player it takes a lot of skill in making it hard for his opponent to see what spin he is giving back. This is called deception and it is not that different from what every smooth player strives to do in keeping his opponent from seeing what spin he is placing on his serves.

So knowing how these rubbers actually work and the different ways in which different players use them is quite valuable when you are trying to improve your skills as a smooth rubber player. And just as there are many different Long Pips and Anti Spin rubbers that all have slightly different playing characteristics, every Long Pips and Anti Spin player I have played against has a different playing style and uses their equipment differently.

Knuckle Ball
01-26-2012, 03:15 PM
Yes, sometimes a fast no spin serve (little topspin) will cause trouble, but against experienced anti player it won't help much.

My main tactic against anti players is to send a fast medium-heavy underspin push to the anti side and loop kill the little topspin return.
Placement also play an important role here.
I think thats all ;)

For someone from the Dark Side I'll contribute a little based on how I play.

You got it right Yosan! A fast serve to the anti side can pose problems, but once I know or anticipate this I usually twiddle and loop it BH with my conventional rubber. I can also also give it a controlled smack to the opponent's far FH side.

Yosan your main tactic against anti is the kind that usually defeats me. An underspin serve returned by a push of my anti rubber comes back as a weak topspin. Very easy to spin loop kill. That is for players who know how my anti behaves. Others would usually try to push it anticipating an underspin, ball pops up, I do the kill.

Here are some of my tactics, how I win points with my anti:

I serve underspin, opponent pushes back underspin, I twiddle and push with my anti. Opponent anticipates an underspin, not expecting spin reversal, ball pops up, I kill.

I alternate using anti and conventional side and wait for opponent to make a mistake, a loop snagging the net or going long, a push that pops up or goes long.

When an opponent starts looping I block with my anti, spin reversal and the next loop becomes harder to nail as it needs more spin to lift. Second loop usually hits the net. I can also twiddle and give different spin returns to my blocks against the opponents loops.

In serving, I toss high and often twiddle or double twiddle to confuse my opponent which side I used, and what spin to expect. (Can also backfire and I end up losing the serve on a twiddle-fumble ha ha)

I notice that the more my opponents play me, the more they understand how my anti behaves, the more games I start to lose. ha ha ha

Deception is the name of my game. That's how I use my anti, perhaps you can get something from it and improve your games against Dark Siders. (my BH Sriver Killer and Super Anti)

jmillsy2
01-26-2012, 04:40 PM
As a "weird rubber" player, my views may be a bit different as im a chopper and the only time i play anti is our other chopper. Basically, i chop till he misses then attack when he is nervous. He's 2 wing chop but has a decent fh loop. I attack his anti with control topspins for 2 or so balls, then push or do a stronger topspin w/more speed. he often misses those. also you must also attack the forehand to force him to change it up a little. if he twiddles and pushes w/normal then try and get him to push w/ the anti.
Hope this helps!
also, i find this particular chopper struggles with a "Ding Ning" style bh tomahawk serve - he just plonks it in the net because of the very heavy backspin-sidespin. watch He Zhi Wen play a chopper to see the master of "controlled topspin"...

rhonis
01-26-2012, 05:52 PM
As a pimples player I think I have to react on the post.

First if you play short pimples that's a whole other game. Playing without spin long and hard is not smart. But this deserves a new topic because short pimples is a different discipline.

Now anti is easy.why? Because you're opponent can't do a lot of different things. First is the opponent only defending, just keep semi slow playing the ball with a little curv on the back of the table. Wait for a semi short ball and kill. Make sure to kill, because now you have put speed in the ball and you're now in his world.

It gets harder if you're opponent attacks more and is deadly. For example til from Korea. If you put back the ball on the back of the table with a arc he will use his hammer and destroy you. So don't give the chance. How? Put more speed in the ball, but not to much and certainly not allot spin. And keep your opponent moving. Start in the back of the table and during the rally you may choose to put it short. If you keep the ball in the back in my opinion you get easier opportunities to kill.

I hope someone recognizes these tips and it will help you to play great matches against darksiders.

teen291
04-07-2015, 04:16 PM
I could not grab lots of tips from your sharing. However, do recognize attack to kill at short ball. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lightzy
12-28-2018, 12:08 AM
I was asked this today by one of the beginner level players in the club..

So, I'm sorry for being judgemental, I have a lot of respect for the pros commenting here, but from my experience many tips given here are useless for the players that actually need those tips.
There is a reason it's AMATEUR leagues are that are often dominated by pimple/anti players, and you need to help THESE guys. Nobody that can accurately vary their spin/hit ratio is asking these questions. It's the amateurs getting wrecked by shit they don't understand.

For example one tip is to do a 'baloon' topspin and then another one except this time against the super-heavy backspin they receive etc. What point is there in telling a beginner this?

There are also many suggestions to use no-spin long shots and serves, but this is also not good, because the anti-spin will return slight backspin to those shots too and sometimes short too if it's a dampening sponge, which is very awkward and difficult if you don't know wtf is going on. The most common mistake for beginners against antispin is driving the ball into the net, and these kinda tips will help them do that more.




So here are some tips that I think will help you if you're an actual beginner and are struggling:

1) Try using a short serve. Little underspin or no spin is good. As weak and short as you can get it. These are difficult to return properly with the anti-spin because you have to get under the ball, where the effect of the anti-spin works against the player trying to return the short serve. They can never give you a quality return with the anti-spin, but since they are also beginners they will usually use the antispin to answer all serves if possible.
This can cause them a lot of serve return errors and high/easy balls, or at least cause them to use the forehand, in which case you're avoided the anti-spin confusion.

2) AVOID! Just play everything to the forehand. Serves too.
In beginner levels, anti players tend to grow extremely dependent on their anti to return serves and difficult shots. So much so that more often than not they'll move to the forehand side of the table just to use the anti.
This doesn't mean you win the point, but you certainly have greater chances of winning if the player is no longer covering the backhand side of the table effectively.

Also, anti players tend to have very bizzare forehand shots. I dunno why this is, just an observation from years at the club. Not necessarily a bad shot. It's often incredibly spinny because they tend to use very soft blades, but still. More prone to error, which may probably increase your chances of getting a point.

3) Your topspins and also your non topspin, including your no-spin serves; whatever you do except for pushes, there's gonna be some degree of backspin on the ball you get back, because even your basic drives have a bit of topspin on them, including topspin generated by friction when the ball hits the table, and the anti-spin rubber will reverse that.

So simply remember that most of your shots are going to be returned with backspin.
So don't drive any ball you get back from the anti-spin rubber. Or at least not until you're sure you can read the ball properly and know there's no spin on it.

4) Long pushes to the backhand are very difficult for amateur players with antispin. With fast shots they can generally just put the racket there and absorb the ball with their speed-dampening effect and you'll be left with a ball that's very difficult for you to return (possibly a fast underspin ball etc). But with pushes it is more difficult for the antispin players to read the actual speed on the ball, so they will make more mistakes trying to return that.

5) Wait longer before hitting the ball, if possible.
This is in general is a good idea, but especially against anti-spin. The spin on their return is often greatly diminished since it's just your spin back, and air resistance and table friction saps away much of the spin by the time the ball gets back to you.
So the more you wait, the less spin there will be on the ball.
If all your drives are going into the net, you can either 'never drive the ball', or try waiting a bit longer. The spin may dissipate completely in many cases (if there wasn't a lot of spin in your shot that was returned by the anti).


Uhm.

So...
There ya go.
Dude from 2011. And dude from my club.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
12-28-2018, 01:34 AM
People gave good tactics above, which was answers to OP's question.

I want to add my own grain of salt.

Don't be afraid of antispin players. At the same ranking they are probably weaker technically than a BS player. They have an advantage because many players are not used to playing them and make mistake / have difficult to adapt, and/or develop a psychological fear of these players. Practising a lot again these players is the best antidote.

I think if you understand that the incoming ball from antispin, just like its name says, has less spin and speed than a normal ball, and that to counter that, then you will realize you should adjust your timing and stroke correctly and if you manage to do that, if you are a playing who likes to take initiative, you can nearly develop your usual game.

Because the ball is often slower, you have to be more patient and not rush to the ball. Profit from the extra 1/10th of second to get your feet in better position, often you have to wait more and take the ball lower than usual so make an extra effort to lower your body. The alternative is to time the ball at the top (just before) of the bounce with a more closed angle but you have to get the right tempo and a good footwork.

Also, play all the balls with less pace and speed, and try to always put light topspin on all balls, it will make the ball much more difficult for your opponent. If you hit a ball too hard or without spin, its much more difficult to control.

Avoid pushing short twice in a row. if you push once, the incoming ball will be probably no spin or slight upspin. so topspin it, or - at worse- push it long. if it pops AND you played it short its a penalty for your opponent.
so a pattern alternating (short) underspin / topspin etc... is useful if you master it, and just wait for the easy ball to kill.

i also avoid serving short to the pips / antispin.

When i play pips or antispin players, my main mistake is to put too much power when i'm late on a long push on my BH. be careful of those balls not staying too close to the table and play those balls with soft topspin, never put power on such balls.

Good luck and please tell how it goes

mart1nandersson
12-28-2018, 03:37 PM
We have a player in our club who uses anti and twiddles fast as hell. She only uses the anti to block which results in some funky dead ball returns. It’s impossible to use a tactic which involves serving to a certain side as she twiddles so fast. Maybe not really on topic but I just wanted to say that there’re quite a few different ways to use anti.

I’ve played quite a lot against other anti players who mainly chop and they’re quite easy to beat as long as you don’t feed them with spin (unless you’re really into doing some heavy duty looping).

brokenball
12-28-2018, 08:40 PM
Hit the ball high to the back hand like Cory Eider vs Pushblocker.

Lula
12-28-2018, 08:51 PM
How did it go for the guy? any updates? I agree that is proably good if you have played against anti so you know what is happening to the ball. I have almost never played against an anti player, so i would have to figure it out as the game goes on but i think one tactic would be to play alot against the inverted rubber instead. Maybe this is difficult if the opponent have a great forehand. If they do not have a good forehand, they proably will use the anti in the forehand corner aswell. Then the tactics will change to playing alot in the corners so it will be hard for the anti player to use the anti over the whole table.

Der_Echte
12-28-2018, 11:47 PM
Hi Rahul, Carl was right when he mentioned about twiddling.. Experience players do a lot of twiddling, so be on your toes all the time. And since I used anti when I started playing in the 80's, I would also like to highlight that they also love to flick the short balls, especially the ones about net high of higher. So, as Wiwa and Moriguchi said, attack whenever you can...and just lift the ball if you think it's coming back with a heavy backspin, and start again. Good luck buddy.

Azlan… oh Azlan...

Der_Echte
12-28-2018, 11:50 PM
Hi Rahul, Carl was right when he mentioned about twiddling.. Experience players do a lot of twiddling, so be on your toes all the time. And since I used anti when I started playing in the 80's, I would also like to highlight that they also love to flick the short balls, especially the ones about net high of higher. So, as Wiwa and Moriguchi said, attack whenever you can...and just lift the ball if you think it's coming back with a heavy backspin, and start again. Good luck buddy.


As I understand it anti spin rubbers typically don't reverse spin they simply cancel or lower the amount producing varying dead balls. I have some students of Danny Seemiller at my local clubs and they always explain it as the ball simply being caught and lowering the angle of the shot. Producing dead balls to them can force a lot of errors when they use the anti because the ball won't have any momentum to rebound across the net.

I'm not too sure about what anti does, but I just attack their backhands and then drop short. I haven't really met many anti players that were "high" level players. My thoughts are that you really have to understand your own game when playing deceptive players. If you know what you give to your opponent then you can calculate the likelihood that they will return with the opposite (LP), similar (inverted), or dead (anti/sp).

Oh, Richard would just be dying to meet ttd member erm's uncle... he is maybe .5 to 1 level higher rated, but might wipe our Richard and force him to eat a few pages like in the Fists of Fury movie...

Der_Echte
12-28-2018, 11:59 PM
I was asked this today by one of the beginner level players in the club..

So, I'm sorry for being judgemental, I have a lot of respect for the pros commenting here, but from my experience many tips given here are useless for the players that actually need those tips.
There is a reason it's AMATEUR leagues are that are often dominated by pimple/anti players, and you need to help THESE guys. Nobody that can accurately vary their spin/hit ratio is asking these questions. It's the amateurs getting wrecked by shit they don't understand.

For example one tip is to do a 'baloon' topspin and then another one except this time against the super-heavy backspin they receive etc. What point is there in telling a beginner this?

There are also many suggestions to use no-spin long shots and serves, but this is also not good, because the anti-spin will return slight backspin to those shots too and sometimes short too if it's a dampening sponge, which is very awkward and difficult if you don't know wtf is going on. The most common mistake for beginners against antispin is driving the ball into the net, and these kinda tips will help them do that more.




So here are some tips that I think will help you if you're an actual beginner and are struggling:

1) Try using a short serve. Little underspin or no spin is good. As weak and short as you can get it. These are difficult to return properly with the anti-spin because you have to get under the ball, where the effect of the anti-spin works against the player trying to return the short serve. They can never give you a quality return with the anti-spin, but since they are also beginners they will usually use the antispin to answer all serves if possible.
This can cause them a lot of serve return errors and high/easy balls, or at least cause them to use the forehand, in which case you're avoided the anti-spin confusion.

2) AVOID! Just play everything to the forehand. Serves too.
In beginner levels, anti players tend to grow extremely dependent on their anti to return serves and difficult shots. So much so that more often than not they'll move to the forehand side of the table just to use the anti.
This doesn't mean you win the point, but you certainly have greater chances of winning if the player is no longer covering the backhand side of the table effectively.

Also, anti players tend to have very bizzare forehand shots. I dunno why this is, just an observation from years at the club. Not necessarily a bad shot. It's often incredibly spinny because they tend to use very soft blades, but still. More prone to error, which may probably increase your chances of getting a point.

3) Your topspins and also your non topspin, including your no-spin serves; whatever you do except for pushes, there's gonna be some degree of backspin on the ball you get back, because even your basic drives have a bit of topspin on them, including topspin generated by friction when the ball hits the table, and the anti-spin rubber will reverse that.

So simply remember that most of your shots are going to be returned with backspin.
So don't drive any ball you get back from the anti-spin rubber. Or at least not until you're sure you can read the ball properly and know there's no spin on it.

4) Long pushes to the backhand are very difficult for amateur players with antispin. With fast shots they can generally just put the racket there and absorb the ball with their speed-dampening effect and you'll be left with a ball that's very difficult for you to return (possibly a fast underspin ball etc). But with pushes it is more difficult for the antispin players to read the actual speed on the ball, so they will make more mistakes trying to return that.

5) Wait longer before hitting the ball, if possible.
This is in general is a good idea, but especially against anti-spin. The spin on their return is often greatly diminished since it's just your spin back, and air resistance and table friction saps away much of the spin by the time the ball gets back to you.
So the more you wait, the less spin there will be on the ball.
If all your drives are going into the net, you can either 'never drive the ball', or try waiting a bit longer. The spin may dissipate completely in many cases (if there wasn't a lot of spin in your shot that was returned by the anti).


Uhm.

So...
There ya go.
Dude from 2011. And dude from my club.

Some certain members might say this post is arrogant or condescending... I would say lightzy did a good focus to kept the advice relevant for who is asking and their level/abilities.

Even the most widely accepted advice - use controlled loops... means you need to do several in a row vs spins/placement/depth player is unsure about...

I don't see even half the 2000 USATT crowd able to do that consistently vs an anti player even one level below them.

What is important to catch onto some concepts and easily visualize them. It is how adults work best.

Out of the 5 things he focused on, an adjustment that would pay off is No. 5 suggestion... that gets the ball into the effective hitting zone.

However, I would amend that to say MOVE FORWARD a little more once you see a not a screamer anti shot coming at you. This will not only get the hitting zone right, but makes you position more solid, better kinetic energy to transfer, you can see the ball better, you have more angles to use, and most important, you are hitting in the right timing.

That is real important for confidence.

Once a player sees all his attempts to adjust and play offense result in a Denver & Rio train wreck of epic proportions... it is over for that player.

brokenball
12-29-2018, 08:06 AM
#1 is a good idea. Short dead ball serves to the anti will work but you much keep the ball low. The spin doesn't matter much if playing against frictionless anti, flanti. Hopefully the anti player will need to hit the ball up over the net. If he hits the ball too high then go for the kill. Mix this up with a couple of very fast long serves to the anti that will hopefully bounce long.


#5 is a good suggestion but the reasoning is flawed. The ball will not slow its rotation in any appreciable way. I started a thread about why waiting works. What must be avoided is getting too much in a hurry and rushing forward to hit the ball instead of waiting and stroking up. If the anti player blocks short you should treat it like a short underpin serve.

Also, anti rubbers are not alike. I have played with many anti rubbers. Yasaka Anti Power, YAP, does not have very good spin reversal if any. Most of the time it returns dead balls. However YAP does allow for more aggressive play or even chopping.
The new German flanti, are similar to LP 0X but since flantis don't have pips that may or may not bend they are much more predictable to play against as well as play with relative to LP 0X. Watch some PushBlocker , Amelie Solja, and AA videos, on the OOAK forum, videos.

If you are playing against a twiddler and you don't pay attention, you will lose. Instead of the ball coming back slow with backspin it will come back with speed and top spin when twiddling. To keep the anti player from twiddling you must keep the pace of the game high but then you also risk making mistakes.

Realtor_Dillon
12-29-2018, 03:06 PM
I’m not a fan of low dead balls. There’s an anti player in my club who is good at giving you these weak, dead balls just over the edge of the net, and super short to boot. The only thing that I’ve found that’ll consistently put a point away is a good flick long if he’s near the table, (beat him to the corner) or if you’ve pushed him back, chop it short and dump it at a sharp angle on either the Bh, or Fh side. I’m fairly inexperienced, but watching him in match play he handles even the other experienced guys in a similar manner. His placement is super precise.


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yogi_bear
12-29-2018, 03:28 PM
Learn to brush no spin balls by contacting the top part of the ball.

UpSideDownCarl
12-29-2018, 03:38 PM
I guess it is a good subject. But, Lightzy, what caused you to play the necromancer and wake up this LONG DEAD thread?

hahaha. I guess it is just entertaining to me to see stuff written 7-8 years ago and people responding to that. :)

Again, it is a timeless subject. So I am just entertained by people responding as though the comments from 2011 were written last week. :)

pgpg
12-29-2018, 03:53 PM
I guess it is a good subject. But, Lightzy, what caused you to play the necromancer and wake up this LONG DEAD thread?

hahaha. I guess it is just entertaining to me to see stuff written 7-8 years ago and people responding to that. :)

Again, it is a timeless subject. So I am just entertained by people responding as though the comments from 2011 were written last week. :)

I guess 'Lightzy' got a question from one of his beginner friends (as mentioned in the post), tried to find an answer here and did not like the gist of advice.

Anti players did not go away in the last 6 years, so no harm in reviving old thread - keeps info in one place. Why there is such a general dislike of 'necromancing'? I thought this particular one was quite tastefully done :rolleyes: .

Realtor_Dillon
12-29-2018, 03:55 PM
Better than starting a new thread, right?


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Der_Echte
12-29-2018, 07:36 PM
Learn to brush no spin balls by contacting the top part of the ball.

Yogi, your comment deserves a little clarification.

Given an incoming no-spin ball, ball arrives one foot past the end line, ball is at top of bounce, ball is 6-10 cm above net height, speed of ball is slow medium.

That situation is similar to if you served a dead, deep ball medium speed and anti opponent pokes it back long with his anti...

If we are talking about a clock, where on the clock are you suggesting the impact? You said THE TOP of the ball.

12 O'Clock is TOP. 3 O'Clock is BACK of ball.

Your suggestion sounds like around 1 O'Clock.

Please clarify.

Lula
12-29-2018, 08:03 PM
Yogi, your comment deserves a little clarification.

Given an incoming no-spin ball, ball arrives one foot past the end line, ball is at top of bounce, ball is 6-10 cm above net height, speed of ball is slow medium.

That situation is similar to if you served a dead, deep ball medium speed and anti opponent pokes it back long with his anti...

If we are talking about a clock, where on the clock are you suggesting the impact? You said THE TOP of the ball.

12 O'Clock is TOP. 3 O'Clock is BACK of ball.

Your suggestion sounds like around 1 O'Clock.

Please clarify.

I feel that you are making this harder than it is. I think he just mean that you need to hit the on the top of the ball by closing the angle of the bat and hitting over the ball. So you hit around 12, 1 o'clock or close to that. And by doing that you will get topspin. Just like you loop on a no spin or topspin ball. But maybe im wrong.

yogi_bear
12-29-2018, 08:28 PM
Lula, you are correct. I am referring to 1 o'clock position of the ball. I also teach this to my players when a long pimps user uses LP to serve to them as it also has no spin.

brokenball
12-29-2018, 08:59 PM
Hitting the ball at 1 o’clock is risky because the timing must be perfect and the swing must be extremely fast. The ball has backspin and the paddle is closed so the stroke tangential speed must be much faster than the angular speed of the ball to carry it above the net. then why? Most of the energy goes in to spin not speed. the anti player will block it back and now the ball has even more back spin. Also, it will take a lot of effort to recover quickly from an extremely fast brushing stroke. I think waiting is better and hitting controlled shots concentrating on keeping the ball low is safer and a higher percentage way to go.

Lightzy
12-29-2018, 09:15 PM
Well it's weird to resurrect threads where like some guy asks what equipment he should buy in 2011 (which for some reason keeps happening) but with this yeah, like pgpg said, I was looking for a repository of advice I could point a beginner to.
And it's definitely useful. It wouldn't have occurred to me the idea of deep pushes to the backhand because that's not how I play against antispin but some smart dudes wrote it here, so I added that to my collection.

Der_Echte
12-29-2018, 10:48 PM
Der_Echte is not opposed to adding to discussions past... especially if they are on the topics of technique/tactics. We never get enough of that stuff on the forums.

Yeah, I get the part about adding to old conversations just for the heck of it when there is nothing relevant going on. That happens too much.

yogi_bear
12-30-2018, 07:10 AM
Why are you assuming that every ball from antispin has backspin? It is also clear that the one being discussed is a no spin ball.


Hitting the ball at 1 o’clock is risky because the timing must be perfect and the swing must be extremely fast. The ball has backspin and the paddle is closed so the stroke tangential speed must be much faster than the angular speed of the ball to carry it above the net. then why? Most of the energy goes in to spin not speed. the anti player will block it back and now the ball has even more back spin. Also, it will take a lot of effort to recover quickly from an extremely fast brushing stroke. I think waiting is better and hitting controlled shots concentrating on keeping the ball low is safer and a higher percentage way to go.

vvk1
12-30-2018, 10:47 AM
IMO, the advice to serve short to an antispin player (or a combination bat player with long/medium/short pips) is somewhat questionable, to put it mildly.

Aside from the fact that the vast majority of beginners do not possess the ability to serve short and low consistently, all this achieves is giving the initiative to the opponent inviting them to do an awkward return at a sharp angle where you least expect it to be.

If this was a reasonable general approach, someone like Greg Letts or Larry Hodges would have mentioned it ages ago.

In my personal experience and many post-match conversations with combination bat players, they seem to vastly prefer short and/or spinny and/or slow serves from their opponents than fast long serves which immediately put them under pressure.

Lightzy
12-30-2018, 12:10 PM
IMO, the advice to serve short to an antispin player (or a combination bat player with long/medium/short pips) is somewhat questionable, to put it mildly.

Aside from the fact that the vast majority of beginners do not possess the ability to serve short and low consistently, all this achieves is giving the initiative to the opponent inviting them to do an awkward return at a sharp angle where you least expect it to be.

If this was a reasonable general approach, someone like Greg Letts or Larry Hodges would have mentioned it ages ago.

In my personal experience and many post-match conversations with combination bat players, they seem to vastly prefer short and/or spinny and/or slow serves from their opponents than fast long serves which immediately put them under pressure.

Because long serves will return with spin that makes it difficult for a beginner to play a second shot. With a short serve you avoid that problem of confusion almost entirely.
Serving a short serve is easy for beginners.

phorkyas
12-30-2018, 05:38 PM
Picked up that long no spin serves to the turning point from Larry Hodges, but that was nothing anti/long pips specific.

Don't have that much Anti experience, but the spin reverse effect is similar to long pips I think, so I'd treat them similarly. In my lower league plays generally I had some success against them pips players by not giving them much spin to work with, I.e. playing some mild drives and giving them back their strange drifting no spin balls was trouble for themselves.

Just try out different things. E.g. I found that many still had troubles against my strong side spin tomahawk serve putting it out the table. Probably weren't used to it, because players even didn't try.
IMO, the advice to serve short to an antispin player (or a combination bat player with long/medium/short pips) is somewhat questionable, to put it mildly.

Aside from the fact that the vast majority of beginners do not possess the ability to serve short and low consistently, all this achieves is giving the initiative to the opponent inviting them to do an awkward return at a sharp angle where you least expect it to be.

If this was a reasonable general approach, someone like Greg Letts or Larry Hodges would have mentioned it ages ago.

In my personal experience and many post-match conversations with combination bat players, they seem to vastly prefer short and/or spinny and/or slow serves from their opponents than fast long serves which immediately put them under pressure.

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Der_Echte
12-30-2018, 05:53 PM
I am not sold on the idea that beginners to average USA players can serve a quality short serve consistently. I do agree that a player should be able to have such a serve to setup a lot of other possibilities. yet, one can still other ways of variation with long serves. I still agree that a short serve is a valuable tool to have... for anti players, LP players, pips players, inveted players.

I have seen 1900 USATT players not able to serve short to save their life, and many 2000 level players who cannot do it in a match in doubles.

I can see the advantages/risks of a good short serve vs an anti player.

Advantages:
- if low and tight, high risk shot for opponent to flip or return aggressively
- opponent still must read spin and make a good return, may be popped up or into net
- good serve if opponent is killing you by attacking everything long

Risks:
- Still difficult to do low/tight for many players even 3 levels above average USA club level
- Opponent now have severe angle to return the serve
- possible unknown spin (server can kill the spin too) return can be short and awkward to do much with
- anti opponent can return this short with a light touch pretty easily, just needs to touch it loose

Serving long has its own set of advantages and risks

Advantages:
- easy for any level player to do
- variation possible of depth, speed, and bounce anywhere on end line
- variation of spin is easy
- server has more time to see the ball coming back and setup (if bumped back)
- server can take advantage of attacking tendencies (use different spin or force to attack to a known zone)
- anti player has much less severe angles to work with on return

Risks:
- Server may still be rushed by attack from anti
- timing of incoming ball may be awkward until player gets experience
- anti can bump the ball back with unknown spin and entice server to attack low percentage
- anti player can easily jam the middle for a server without footwork or good stance

Lula
12-30-2018, 06:53 PM
I Do not know much about anti, But have played alot of long pimple. I Do not think it matter much if you serve long or short, a variation is proably best. Against long pimple that have No grip or almost No grip i think you should avoid serving nasty serves since the ball Will return wobbly and strange. I think backspin, Nospin or topspin serves are best.

Against short pimple players it May be most effective to serve against the inverted rubber if they have that since the pimples is not as sensitive for spin.

Lightzy
12-30-2018, 07:27 PM
I can see the advantages/risks of a good short serve vs an anti player.... ETC (omitted for the sake of brevity)


I agree with your summaries a hundred percent, but not so much with the difficulty of.... ok,
What I mean is that to serve a short serve you can do, because it depends only on you.

To figure out and respond (and quickly) to wtf is happening with the ball after a long serve against anti-spin is much more difficult. I would never advise that to a beginner.
For a beginner there is no point trying to 'defeat the weakness of antispin'. The technique and ball-reading ain't there.
That's why my thoughts on the issue center on 2 things:
1) avoid the antispin
2) understand that antispin players tend to be overly reliant on the antispin (and how wouldn't u, if you're a beginner and can return every crazy serve just by setting your racket in font of the ball).


Long serve advice is basically advice on the theme of 'defeating the weakness', which I think is bad advice for beginners.
Too much complication: most anti-spin players tend to use heavy speed dampening effect in order to keep the ball on the table, so a long fast serve can suddenly be returned medium-length and slowish with some backspin anywhere on the table. Or it can be hit back with speed (and spin reversal).
Shit, at those levels even the anti player sometimes doesn't know what his serve return will be like. They block the serve back to the table and that's it.
That's just too much. There's no point entering into a point if every second ball is a surprise

With a short serve you can expect much less (if any) variation on the serve return, which is all I want.
Also this can be very difficult for beginner antispin players who are overly reliant. They will move to answer any serve with the antispin and leave parts of the table open.
That's why I'd advise beginners to serve short and weak.

brokenball
12-30-2018, 07:40 PM
Why are you assuming that every ball from antispin has backspin? It is also clear that the one being discussed is a no spin ball.
Even if the ball has no spin, the paddle will hit the ball down into the table unless there is a sufficient tangential force that keeps that from happening. The requires a lot of tangential paddle speed. It is risky and not necessary. Again, I refer to the videos I mentioned above. I don't see people brushing at 1 o'clock. When brushing a ball, a certain percentage of the tangential energy goes into spin and some into speed. It is determined by the ratio of rotational inertia to mass. The energy not going into speed does not help the ball go over the net. If pressed, I can do the math to show how much faster this stroke must be when brush looping. Also, since the paddle is closed so much the apparent cross section of the paddle is smaller. The timing is critical. There are safer ways. Also, I would like to see a video of your students doing this. They would have to be exceptionally good students to do this relatively consistently.

Lula
12-30-2018, 07:56 PM
I agree that if you close the angle of the racket and hit over the ball it Will be easier to miss the ball. And that you need a certain amount of acceleration with the arm to make the ball go over the net.

Where Do you see people brushing the ball? What is the safer ways?

With an open angle it Will be more safe But the ball Will have No spin. It is also possible to brush behind the ball at around 3 oclock But that is more suited for a backspin ball i think. Against a topspin or Nospin ball the ball Will have a pretty high arch. It is more safe But is less threat for the opponent since the ball Will be higher and Do not have so much power.

I think the ball with the most quality when there is topspin or Nospin on the ball is when you brush over the ball with an forward motion.

Maybe in wrong. I can not give the scienific explanation like you gave, which was impressive.

Der_Echte
12-30-2018, 08:12 PM
I agree with your summaries a hundred percent, but not so much with the difficulty of.... ok,
What I mean is that to serve a short serve you can do, because it depends only on you.

To figure out and respond (and quickly) to wtf is happening with the ball after a long serve against anti-spin is much more difficult. I would never advise that to a beginner.
For a beginner there is no point trying to 'defeat the weakness of antispin'. The technique and ball-reading ain't there.
That's why my thoughts on the issue center on 2 things:
1) avoid the antispin
2) understand that antispin players tend to be overly reliant on the antispin (and how wouldn't u, if you're a beginner and can return every crazy serve just by setting your racket in font of the ball).


Long serve advice is basically advice on the theme of 'defeating the weakness', which I think is bad advice for beginners.
Too much complication: most anti-spin players tend to use heavy speed dampening effect in order to keep the ball on the table, so a long fast serve can suddenly be returned medium-length and slowish with some backspin anywhere on the table. Or it can be hit back with speed (and spin reversal).
Shit, at those levels even the anti player sometimes doesn't know what his serve return will be like. They block the serve back to the table and that's it.
That's just too much. There's no point entering into a point if every second ball is a surprise

With a short serve you can expect much less (if any) variation on the serve return, which is all I want.
Also this can be very difficult for beginner antispin players who are overly reliant. They will move to answer any serve with the antispin and leave parts of the table open.
That's why I'd advise beginners to serve short and weak.

I like and appreciate the detailed logic of your position. It is important for TTers to not just know WHAT to do... but HOW and WHY and the consequences for each course of action. Adults really need that.

TT for an adult is bravery and risk management in action. Caution and skill are number 1 and 2 in combat. TT has its own dynamics every match. Adults need to be able to assess their chances and play accordingly. Knowing what how and why really help.

You assessed the potential risks of a long serve for a beginner. The ones you listed are legitimate risks and so are the ones I listed for short serve.

For a beginner, it comes down to discovering what is dangerous for opponent, what situations gives unknown ball uncertainty, what situations give more predictability, what situations transfer risk to opponent, what situations favor self in attacking, what is destructive to the opponent, how can one take advantage of opponent's middle and feet position (or lack of effective position), how to discover what spin gets what back...

It is a learning process for each match and opponent, but for a beginner vs anti, more attention is needed or the risks are greater.

it is difficult to say THIS or THAT will work as each opponent has his/her own vulnerabilities and recklessness to take advantage of... it is our job to discover those while managing risk.


This is always a mission objective and challenge... just for beginners with little experience vs anti it is more challenging.

Der_Echte
12-30-2018, 08:15 PM
I agree that if you close the angle of the racket and hit over the ball it Will be easier to miss the ball. And that you need a certain amount of acceleration with the arm to make the ball go over the net.

Where Do you see people brushing the ball? What is the safer ways?

With an open angle it Will be more safe But the ball Will have No spin. It is also possible to brush behind the ball at around 3 oclock But that is more suited for a backspin ball i think. Against a topspin or Nospin ball the ball Will have a pretty high arch. It is more safe But is less threat for the opponent since the ball Will be higher and Do not have so much power.

I think the ball with the most quality when there is topspin or Nospin on the ball is when you brush over the ball with an forward motion.

Maybe in wrong. I can not give the scienific explanation like you gave, which was impressive.

A high level player and coach saying maybe I am wrong is refreshing and rarely seen.

One way to play a safe ball vs a dead ball is to think loose and 50.

Loose shoulder, arm, and wrist. 50 percent power. 50 percent brush, 50% solid impact. Strike ball a tad above 3 O'Clock and lift. Objective is a safe heavy or medium heavy ball that lands DEEP near end line.

Under pressure, this or any shot may seem tough... but this is an easy one to train for and execute.

This is just another safe option with potential benefits either right away or for next ball.

Der_Echte
12-30-2018, 09:21 PM
A short vid from a Korean show. One of the guys on this show has been around Korean television a LONG time.

Dude also likes TT... a LOT.

He uses his influence in the industry to make TT themed episodes sometimes.

Aren't we all for that???

Usually they are amateur TV stars vs amateur TV stars...

In this vid, it is against a FEMALE ANTI PLAYER !!

All the discussion after the game is about the guy having to pay attention to what rubber she used to strike the ball as she twiddled a bit. The stop action to show what she hit with on some points...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-SnxMElHiM

Der_Echte
12-30-2018, 09:25 PM
What is real funny is on the graphics of the vid before the vid starts...

The graphics over the guy says it is "High Level TT Player" vs "Anti Spin Special Class Defender"

Cracks me up as the guy is Div 4 city... no better. That isn't a high level player - that is average TT club level... unless you are talking about the average Joe off the street, which in that case it would be real high level vs that class.

The lady defender... the title is a little more accurate to her... She would be Div 1 city female or Div 4/Div 3 mens city. For amateur females, she is 3 levels or more above average female TT club level.

yogi_bear
12-30-2018, 10:53 PM
No the ball does not drop especially when they are using chinese rubbers in the forehand. Also, in your case i think you are referring to a fast knuckle ball wherein you are having difficulty brushing it. In case of a normal speed return for no spin or little spin, even intermediate players can do it. It is not difficult to do it if it lands about 6 inches before the edge. If it is a little bit short you beed to do it on the rise which is the one being difficult.


Even if the ball has no spin, the paddle will hit the ball down into the table unless there is a sufficient tangential force that keeps that from happening. The requires a lot of tangential paddle speed. It is risky and not necessary. Again, I refer to the videos I mentioned above. I don't see people brushing at 1 o'clock. When brushing a ball, a certain percentage of the tangential energy goes into spin and some into speed. It is determined by the ratio of rotational inertia to mass. The energy not going into speed does not help the ball go over the net. If pressed, I can do the math to show how much faster this stroke must be when brush looping. Also, since the paddle is closed so much the apparent cross section of the paddle is smaller. The timing is critical. There are safer ways. Also, I would like to see a video of your students doing this. They would have to be exceptionally good students to do this relatively consistently.

yogi_bear
12-30-2018, 11:36 PM
Wow, the lady uses Joola Timeless. I wonder why they showed a Dr. NEUBAUER anti at first. I think some people are c9 fused and should nit generalize about anti spin rubbers because she is a chopper the ball has reversal but it does not mean that it is underspin all the time. There times that she returns a no spin ball, sometimes a loose topspin especially when she chops the underspin serve of the guy. That is the reason why it pops up.

Der_Echte
12-31-2018, 02:18 AM
I agree she isn't a pro controlling it like Joo Se Hyuk, but she is good enough to bait a guy of that level to madly attack when he THINKS he knows the spin, but it is different. He looped knuckle ball after knuckle ball out. Sometimes it was because he didn't pay attention to what rubber she used, sometimes it was because she manipulated the spin on the ball (killed the spin).

She played pretty much as classic defender... took very few or no attacks or risk... settled on transferring risk to opponent... and opponent was too attack happy to be cautious... and when he was cautious she pushed heavy and he pushed ball into net...

Very few female Korean players play a classic or modern defender style.

Just about 80-90% of women over 40 or 50 all play a fast solid OFF+ blade with OX LP on BH... they play a punching game with their LP, or push with LP to get a high ball to pulverized with their inverted FH.

Der_Echte
12-31-2018, 02:52 AM
Not Anti, but the Captain prolly couldn't lift his right arm higher than his chest for a week after this match... JSH never give up.

Plenty of variation on the returns...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gf2O0sumhpQ

UpSideDownCarl
12-31-2018, 10:43 PM
I guess 'Lightzy' got a question from one of his beginner friends (as mentioned in the post), tried to find an answer here and did not like the gist of advice.

Anti players did not go away in the last 6 years, so no harm in reviving old thread - keeps info in one place. Why there is such a general dislike of 'necromancing'? I thought this particular one was quite tastefully done :rolleyes: .

Honestly, I am okay with people waking up old threads. But I am frequently entertained when someone wakes an old thread knowing that they are doing it and people after respond as though the posts from 7 years ago were just written. Then, of course, there are the times when, the person waking the thread is doing it without realizing how old it is. So, in waking an old thread, sometimes, making it clear how old the thread is--ie "I know this thread was from 2011, but I think this is a good topic to reopen"--might make sense to warn the people who follow after.

Der_Echte actually did sort of let people know with this post:


Azlan… oh Azlan...

But I wonder how many people understood what he was saying.

In this case, to be honest, it looks to me like Lightzy woke the thread to show he can give better information for the type of player who would ask about player ways to play vs vs pips and anti than the people who had responded way back when. Maybe he is he has a good point. But I am not sure I think that is a great reason to wake a thread even if this is a good subject.

Ultimately, good info for handling a tricky player may be most useful when you are present and get to see what the player is having trouble with.

I am always impressed how good coaches can give coaching info during a match that helps the player improve the results against an opponent.

One time I was playing this guy who is a few levels lower than me. At the time he trained with the same coach I did. After the first game of the match, the coach asked me if I minded if he helped the other guy. I thought to myself "I don't care what you say to him, he can't beat me." And I told the coach it was fine.

The guy beat me. :) He never beat me before. He never beat me again.

But with the insight of a skilled coach seeing things that would help him, he won the match. :) Sometimes this kind of info is sort of like that.