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Boogar
09-28-2016, 01:03 PM
I have a question concerning the use of body rotation used in the FH Loop.

How can i make proper use of turning the body while looping a backspin ball?
Looping a backspin ball requires a more vertical stroke.
Now this makes it hard to turn your body into it without leaning back. Because if you don't you will hit the ball flat and it will drop into the net.

The other thing that I do in that situation is to not turn the body and more like jump from one leg onto the other in a jumping jack fashion if that makes sense. So its more a leaning sideways that helps with additional power.

What is your take on that?

Ilia Minkin
09-28-2016, 01:41 PM
Some tips from Werner Schlager: http://www.experttabletennis.com/stroke-development-tips/



"The more topspin I put on the ball, the less I need to consider the existing rotation of the coming ball. The more spin I put on the ball, the less I need to consider the existing rotation."


You may remember that I used this in my recent blog post about How to Return Spin Serves. It is probably my favourite Werner Schlager quote!


What he’s saying is that using lots of spin on your own strokes can help to weaken the effect of the spin that was put on the ball by your opponent. If you play a high-quality shot, with plenty of spin, you don’t have to worry as much about which spin was on the ball. You can counter that spin with your own spin.


"Personally, I don’t see a clear difference between the topspin against topspin or backspin."


Some coaches teach that there are two types of loop. The loop against topspin (where you hit more through the ball, or over the ball) and the loop against backspin (where you have to spin up the back of the ball). My coach when I was a junior used the talk about brushing the ball at “3 o’clock” when looping backspin – basically, brushing up vertically.


This kind of thinking is probably useful when working with relatively new players – as their biggest problem is usually looping backspin balls into the net. However, if you watch the top Chinese you’ll notice that even when looping backspin they appear to make contact close to the top of the ball. Professional players are able to do this because of the quality of their strokes.


So, professionals probably don’t have to worry too much about whether the ball has topspin or backspin because their loops are so perfect and spinny. This goes back to the point above about heavy spin strokes weakening the spin already on the ball.


TLDR: the higher the racket speed is, the more similar two strokes (against backspin and topspin) are.

Boogar
09-28-2016, 01:47 PM
Some tips from Werner Schlager: http://www.experttabletennis.com/stroke-development-tips/



TLDR: the higher the racket speed is, the more similar two strokes (against backspin and topspin) are.

Thank you! Very good post. I just started reading the blog posts on experttabletennis when you posted :)

SO the solution is to have a super loop who fits all... This will be a long therm goal!
However for amateurs i think there really are two loops.

UpSideDownCarl
09-28-2016, 01:48 PM
I have a question concerning the use of body rotation used in the FH Loop.

How can i make proper use of turning the body while looping a backspin ball?
Looping a backspin ball requires a more vertical stroke.
Now this makes it hard to turn your body into it without leaning back. Because if you don't you will hit the ball flat and it will drop into the net.

The other thing that I do in that situation is to not turn the body and more like jump from one leg onto the other in a jumping jack fashion if that makes sense. So its more a leaning sideways that helps with additional power.

What is your take on that?

I think we may need to see what you are actually doing.

One thing I can say is that, the more you practice looping backspin, the more it clicks; the more you start being able to choose your timing: top of the bounce, as the ball is dropping....the more you start being able to choose your arc: direct or high.

From a theory standpoint, if you use both legs together, and they are timed with the contact properly, they give you power in a small up motion so that your stroke can go more forward and your hips can give you rotation that moves you forward. Because if you are looping heavy backspin and the whole motion is up, you are going to get a slow, high arc loop. That is okay. But looping forward gives you pace and it is worth being able to loop with pace off backspin.

Just to be clear, the legs working together for a little up movement does not mean that you come all the way up. You should start low so your legs are loaded. And they press into the ground to cause a small up movement while your stroke is still forward.

As you practice, you start getting better at this. Then you can choose high arcs for safety and to mess up opponent's timing and more direct forward loops for the pace.

Ilia Minkin
09-28-2016, 01:57 PM
However for amateurs i think there really are two loops.

I would rather say that there is a spectrum of shots in between.

NextLevel
09-28-2016, 02:00 PM
I have a question concerning the use of body rotation used in the FH Loop.

How can i make proper use of turning the body while looping a backspin ball?
Looping a backspin ball requires a more vertical stroke.
Now this makes it hard to turn your body into it without leaning back. Because if you don't you will hit the ball flat and it will drop into the net.

The other thing that I do in that situation is to not turn the body and more like jump from one leg onto the other in a jumping jack fashion if that makes sense. So its more a leaning sideways that helps with additional power.

What is your take on that?

Why not just watch better players do it and then see what they are doing? Here is the guy with the best loop against backspin in the world (his record against choppers is impeccable) - he is the model when I am telling people to loop backspin. Straighten the arm on the backswing so that the racket dips the blow the ball. when you come round the side and up, it will feel as if there is no backspin on the ball. Going downwards deliberately is not right in my view. Use some spin avoidance by not hitting the ball square from the back.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a090bMKZw4



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p7QWKjKXkI

UpSideDownCarl
09-28-2016, 02:03 PM
By the way, here is an old video of Zhang Jike looping vs Joo Se Hyuk, so he is looping against very heavy backspin. You can see how, in this video, his loop motion goes mostly up, but his hips give him forward momentum. They show the same rally several times making it slower and slower so it is easy to analyze.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpXuiYap94

You can also see his hips move him up a few inches on most of those shots. But he never comes all the way up and his legs stay bent to varying degrees the whole time. You can also see his weight transfer and how his left foot comes up while he is powering up from the legs and when his left foot lands, his right foot comes up a tiny bit.

NextLevel
09-28-2016, 02:05 PM
Here is Timo - I am not a fan of that ZJK video - ZJK's record against choppers is not fantastic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FIlB9Ir7zA

Boogar
09-28-2016, 02:14 PM
Thanks for yours answers i really appreciate it.

As I see it there are different approaches on looping backspin. Xu Xin does it by avoiding the spin. Which i like very much, this flows into the same principle as the Werner Schlager one. One loop to fit them all. As XX uses sidespin in almost all of his loops.

One principle stands above all - Racket speed. In the video of Jike we can see that he uses lots of forearm snap. To fit that principle, but his loops seems to have spin without a lot of pace.

The next step for me would be to analyse how much backspin i can lift with trying out the different tactics :) Going to play now, maybe i can use some of the tips you gave me!

Archosaurus
09-28-2016, 02:41 PM
Boogar, what do you mean it's difficult to rotate your body without leaning back?

I can't really picture what exactly you think is correct. Why do you need to lean backwards? Is your arm moving too far in front of you?

UpSideDownCarl
09-29-2016, 12:01 AM
Here is Timo - I am not a fan of that ZJK video - ZJK's record against choppers is not fantastic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FIlB9Ir7zA

Yeah. I hadn't seen that video in years and was surprised by how choppy the technique was. But what I remembered about the video is that, with the slower and slower slow motion, and the the fact that you can see the legs, it is easy to see what is going on.

But, in the video you posted, if the person can see what they are looking at, that compact arm swing from Timo with the legs, hips and core rotation and how much forward action he has despite the fact that you can see the ball is loaded: pretty good footage.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Baal
09-29-2016, 02:46 AM
One high level coach told me to keep your normal loop stroke and just open up the racket angle a bit (against very heavy underspin). Another said to keep your stroke moving forward (not more vertical) and just aim higher. If your stroke gets too vertical you lose all your power and throw yourself off balance. Try it in practice.

Der_Echte
09-29-2016, 04:14 AM
To throw you all for a loop (pun intended haha), Kim Jung Hoon says that vs underspin, if you take it right off the bounce, you can go very forward with a powerful stroke and overcome the spin easier.

This might be a good skill to have with the crappy seamed plastic balls that bounce every which way but loose on a slow or weak underspin shot from opponent.

izra
09-29-2016, 06:35 AM
both avoiding spin and looping with a horizontal stroke are quite advanced imo, if you teach someone these techniques too early they might never learn to handle spin with their own spin. you will end up with a player that plays mostly high risk shots both when needed and not imo.

regarding the question, when looping backspin the body can be applied in two ways and most of time we have a combination of the two: vertical upward motion from the legs helps lift and spin the ball. this is pretty obvious so i won't go into detail. the horizontal motion from turning the body forward is a bit more interesting: it helps add pace to your shot which in turn means you don't have to add pace with your arm, which means your arm can do more spinning. without turning the body you have to choose between spin and pace, with the horizontal body turn you can have both. successfully applying the body turn into your loop off of backspin feels like you are giving your arm a much needed rest and still achieving high quality shots.

Kelpo
09-29-2016, 01:42 PM
To throw you all for a loop (pun intended haha), Kim Jung Hoon says that vs underspin, if you take it right off the bounce, you can go very forward with a powerful stroke and overcome the spin easier.

Is that so? I have always heard that it was easier to loop if you wait for the ball to drop.

Archosaurus
09-29-2016, 02:05 PM
Is that so? I have always heard that it was easier to loop if you wait for the ball to drop.
The spin will decrease as the ball spends time in the air, but it will also have caused more effect on the ball. I guess if you take it right off the bounce, it's gonna be more static compared to slowing down rapidly and starting to float or fall.

Boogar
09-29-2016, 02:16 PM
The spin will decrease as the ball spends time in the air, but it will also have caused more effect on the ball. I guess if you take it right off the bounce, it's gonna be more static compared to slowing down rapidly and starting to float or fall.

The physics work like this: If you take the ball early - off the bounce it has more energy and its rising. This means you don't need to generate that much energy by yourself and most importantly don't need that much lifting. That's why you can take it with a more horizontal motion. At least that's what they taught us in the trainer seminar and makes sense to me.

When you take it later on the ball is dropping, so you need to lift it with a more upward motion.

Archosaurus
09-29-2016, 02:33 PM
The physics work like this: If you take the ball early - off the bounce it has more energy and its rising. This means you don't need to generate that much energy by yourself and most importantly don't need that much lifting. That's why you can take it with a more horizontal motion. At least that's what they taught us in the trainer seminar and makes sense to me.

When you take it later on the ball is dropping, so you need to lift it with a more upward motion.

That's true. However you gotta remember that topspin and backspin looping off the bounce vs on the fall are a little different because the spin affects the ball oppositely. Even if you have huge racket head speed, you can't loop it exactly like you'd loop topspin or no-spin, but the pros sure do get damn close! Well, assuming that it's heavy. If it's light I think you can mostly just loop it however you want.


I think this would be common sense if people didn't watch pros play choppers and "lift" the ball so much. Everyone wants to copy that way of looping backspin without really understanding that it's a tactical decision and not the only right way. Occasionally you also do see pros put away backspin shots with the kind of shot you're describing: early off the bounce with a more normal motion.

songdavid98
09-29-2016, 03:25 PM
Some tips from Werner Schlager: http://www.experttabletennis.com/stroke-development-tips/



TLDR: the higher the racket speed is, the more similar two strokes (against backspin and topspin) are.

Yes.
It's simple physics really. It's easier to see if your stroke was broken up into x and y components of velocity.



Thank you! Very good post. I just started reading the blog posts on experttabletennis when you posted :)

SO the solution is to have a super loop who fits all... This will be a long therm goal!
However for amateurs i think there really are two loops.

Ehhhh half true.
I made a post about this a while back. I forget where. The key is to be able to get a looping technique that is ADJUSTABLE. In fact, the loop is meant to be this way, so that it can be used in every kind of situation. It's not like you do the same super loop no matter what kind of ball it is. But the loops will be closely similar to each other.

I remember which thread now, it is actually Boogar's thread https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?13704-What-is-the-most-important-part-of-the-Forehand-Topspin&p=158476#post158476

Body rotation is definitely important when looping underspin; otherwise, it will be very difficult to make power shots. Beginners will usually only focus on getting the ball on the table, so they will just lift the ball enough to get it over the net.
However, this is kind of a trap, because they are now stuck in the mentality that they should only try to spin the ball upwards.

Truth be told, spinning the ball forward is the answer, although it is really hard. There pretty much isn't a way to spin the ball forward if you don't go fast enough. So NextLevel's advice on racket speed is important and relevant.

If you start spinning the ball forward, all of your loops will start to look the similar: they will all have a good forward motion.

EDIT: referring back to the original post:

Looping backspin doesn't require a more vertical stroke, it only requires a stronger vertical speed. Think about it. If you somehow made your arm go at infinite speed on any kind of loop, the ball will probably go over the net.

Also, leaning back a little bit is okay, as long as you don't lean back too far.

As for the jumping from one leg to the other, that isn't a good idea for developing your stroke, especially if you play with choppers. I know what you are talking about, and I have done it before when I have played with a chopper who chopped with a lot of spin.
If you keep going with that motion, it will slowly turn into a cartwheel :)
But with jokes aside, definitely try to find another way to get more racket speed. Forearm snap usually works.

Der_Echte
09-29-2016, 09:28 PM
Is that so? I have always heard that it was easier to loop if you wait for the ball to drop.
The rationale is right off the bounce the spin doesn't bite the rubber and react so much as if you wait. This allows a forward stroke to overpower the spin and make a powerloop.

Personally, I like to let it drop and then I spin heavy, but it is easier to forward stroke power loop the ball if you take it off the bounce.

If you have access to a robot, set it to give underpin deep near endure and practice power looping off the bounce... you might surprise yourself.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

NextLevel
09-29-2016, 10:18 PM
Coaching people who can't generate racket head speed is one of the hardest things you can do in table tennis.

CroneOne
09-29-2016, 10:52 PM
There are a lot of examples her of heavy backspin from choppers. FH strokes against these will be quite vertical. When talking about backspin pushes and starting up the loop against them, this video really opened up my eyes...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiARkUO6aEE

I was amazed at how ML treated this almost like a topspin ball. You can see all of the rotation in his torso and his forward momentum. I had always thought that you had to lift pushes, but the truth is that if you can get the bat speed going very fast, you can really go through these pushes with a fast loop. Of course this is ML but when I put a few hours on the robot, I could start getting a few of these on. Then after trying these in games over and over, the confidence goes up to try and put some serious pressure on a BS push.

This Coach Li video has a lot of what you are talking about - he tends to lean right to left on the follow through. It could be just his demonstrating style though.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsqIw_vKu24

izra
09-29-2016, 11:29 PM
does he really treat it almost like a topspin ball? the body turn is certainly there, but the bat goes from under his knee level all the way above his head. at the same time it doesn't seem to drift too far back on the backswing nor does it finish too much in front of him. i'd say there is quite a lot of upward motion from the arm there, but it is combined with a powerful forward momentum from the body turn.

if he were to hit a topspin ball at that distance from the table at the same angle, i assure you it would fly off the table.

Boogar
09-29-2016, 11:39 PM
OH this video just reminded me of another way to make use of the body rotation in a more upward stroke!

Drop your shoulder and lean a bit over your right knee and then go up while turning the torso!

Very NICE! Now I need to delay my date tomorrow and go training!

izra
09-29-2016, 11:46 PM
i've noticed a lot of people (my self included) try to use the body by leaning into the shot, as in follow the shot with both shoulders. this is not good, the result is much better if you follow the ball with the playing shoulder and move the other shoulder back as this way your body gets a turning motion.

CroneOne
09-30-2016, 01:33 AM
does he really treat it almost like a topspin ball?

In terms of the amount of forward motion and forward hit the stroke seemed to me to be far more aggressive than a spinny lift. Almost as if he is hitting through the spin. Obviously it is coming from low to high but the bat speed allows him to be very aggressive and attack, rather than start up loop then attack.

Have a read here at the topspin(Loop) section http://www.experttabletennis.com/stroke-development-tips/

Where Schlager talks about BS or TS when looping. Statements like


The more topspin I put on the ball, the less I need to consider the existing rotation of the coming ball. The more spin I put on the ball, the less I need to consider the existing rotation.


Personally, I don’t see a clear difference between the topspin against topspin or backspin.

Der_Echte
09-30-2016, 04:46 AM
i've noticed a lot of people (my self included) try to use the body by leaning into the shot, as in follow the shot with both shoulders. this is not good, the result is much better if you follow the ball with the playing shoulder and move the other shoulder back as this way your body gets a turning motion.

Kim Jung Hoon Advocates this pulling back of the non-hitting shoulder before moving the hitting shoulder forward as you describe, gives the shot 10 percent more power.

strangeloop
09-30-2016, 08:01 AM
Kim Jung Hoon Advocates this pulling back of the non-hitting shoulder before moving the hitting shoulder forward as you describe, gives the shot 10 percent more power.

Interesting.. can you show a demonstration of that? I remember you posted a video series by KJH along with translation.. but I think I missed this point. So, let me see.. you bend your legs, put all weight on the right leg and then twist your waist, pull your non-playing shoulder backward, rotate your playing arm, snap the fore-arm and wrist and hit at the appropriate contact point whilst transferring weight to the other leg.. then comes recovery. Phew!! Breaking it down makes it look so complicated :(

izra
09-30-2016, 11:24 AM
In terms of the amount of forward motion and forward hit the stroke seemed to me to be far more aggressive than a spinny lift. Almost as if he is hitting through the spin. Obviously it is coming from low to high but the bat speed allows him to be very aggressive and attack, rather than start up loop then attack.

Have a read here at the topspin(Loop) section http://www.experttabletennis.com/stroke-development-tips/

Where Schlager talks about BS or TS when looping. Statements like

oh it is far more an aggressive loop drive than it is a spinny lift. but that is due to the powerful body turn, and the hand is still doing some heavy lifting/spinning.

did you know that the chinese did a research paper about how spinny the national team members loops are? they found out the shot with the most spin was the loop drive, it had even more spin than the slow loop. so what ma long is doing in this video is very fast and powerful but it is also VERY spinny.

i agree with schlager in the sense that the mechanics of a loop are always the same and you only adjust the angle depending on the type of shot you are dealing with and you want to make. and also i agree that the more spin you produce the less careful you have to be... but that doesn't mean you can have a "one loop to fit them all", unless the incoming spin is quite low. take a look at how much schlager varied his loops in the world championship final against joo se hyuk.

Boogar
09-30-2016, 01:28 PM
oh it is far more an aggressive loop drive than it is a spinny lift. but that is due to the powerful body turn, and the hand is still doing some heavy lifting/spinning.

did you know that the chinese did a research paper about how spinny the national team members loops are? they found out the shot with the most spin was the loop drive, it had even more spin than the slow loop. so what ma long is doing in this video is very fast and powerful but it is also VERY spinny.

i agree with schlager in the sense that the mechanics of a loop are always the same and you only adjust the angle depending on the type of shot you are dealing with and you want to make. and also i agree that the more spin you produce the less careful you have to be... but that doesn't mean you can have a "one loop to fit them all", unless the incoming spin is quite low. take a look at how much schlager varied his loops in the world championship final against joo se hyuk.

Jea i read that. wait let me search it... http://www.ittf.com/ittf_science/SSCenter/docs/199208013-%20Wu%20-%20Table%20Tennis%20Spin.pdf

I was impressed by two points:
- Loops drives have more spin than high loops, even though more energy is spent in hitting the ball flat.

They justify it that the player have trained the loops drive more and are better at using it. I think it also has to do with the way rubbers topsheet works together with the sponge. The rubber wraps more around the ball and gets more grip if you hit it flatter.

-Secondly Pips out player can reach similar spin! The highest pips out player had about 140 rotations per second and the best inverted had around 160 rotations! That's insane!
'
I wish there d be a tool to measure your spin! I bet mine is at like 30-40 max.

songdavid98
09-30-2016, 01:51 PM
Jea i read that. wait let me search it... http://www.ittf.com/ittf_science/SSCenter/docs/199208013-%20Wu%20-%20Table%20Tennis%20Spin.pdf

I was impressed by two points:
- Loops drives have more spin than high loops, even though more energy is spent in hitting the ball flat.

They justify it that the player have trained the loops drive more and are better at using it. I think it also has to do with the way rubbers topsheet works together with the sponge. The rubber wraps more around the ball and gets more grip if you hit it flatter.

-Secondly Pips out player can reach similar spin! The highest pips out player had about 140 rotations per second and the best inverted had around 160 rotations! That's insane!
'
I wish there d be a tool to measure your spin! I bet mine is at like 30-40 max.


I'e always sort of suspected this, since I do power loop drives consistently. All you have to do is learn how to spin the ball forward (which is pretty hard, though). After that, you can just start looping harder and harder, and the ball will just keep getting more speed and spin. It will still go on the table, because you are looping forwards.

With the high loop, if you loop too hard upwards, you will go out, so there is like a pseudo-limitation.

The reason why most people think the high loop has more spin is because the spin to speed ratio is much higher.

strangeloop
09-30-2016, 01:55 PM
That PDF is a great find. We often used to have this discussion here. I always used to feel that a closed angle with perfect contact can produce greater spin and speed. However usually I will be waging a lone battle. I think the mental image of spinning the ball with an open angle is more dominant than vs closed bat angle. Closed bat angle also needs greater hand speed compared to a vertical lift. It is possible to hit very spinny topspins with a closed angle. This is just my intuition. Likely to be half-wrong at least.

Boogar
09-30-2016, 01:58 PM
That PDF is a great find. We often used to have this discussion here. I always used to feel that a closed angle with perfect contact can produce greater spin and speed. However usually I will be waging a lone battle. I think the mental image of spinning the ball with an open angle is more dominant than vs closed bat angle. Closed bat angle also needs greater hand speed compared to a vertical lift. It is possible to hit very spinny topspins with a closed angle. This is just my intuition. Likely to be half-wrong at least.

One thing about the high loops that makes you believe it has lots of spin is that the angle it comes at you is different.
Because the ball comes at you in a more vertical motion you need to adjust your angle more.
That's why its so hard to block a high loop ball and most people solve this problem by countering it.

Ilia Minkin
09-30-2016, 02:00 PM
All you have to do is learn how to spin the ball forward (which is pretty hard, though).

I think that the hardest part of it is developing footwork & anticipation so that you get into position early enough to not mess up the timing. With slow loop it is easier since you can be late to the ball and still make the shot.

NextLevel
09-30-2016, 02:47 PM
Guys, the fact that the loop drives have higher rotations per second is not news and in fact Hurricane is a relatively slow rubber. The fact that it is the spin to speed ratio for slower balls that is higher is not news and this is how serves or sidespin loops get their best curves.

In the end, it matter most what your customer doesn't like and whether you can produce it. Or a higher level, you just have to get good enough at what you do so that it hardly matters.

Rajah*
09-30-2016, 04:25 PM
Kim Jung Hoon Advocates this pulling back of the non-hitting shoulder before moving the hitting shoulder forward as you describe, gives the shot 10 percent more power.
That 10%is a beast if executed perfectly. +1

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

NextLevel
09-30-2016, 08:16 PM
The physics work like this: If you take the ball early - off the bounce it has more energy and its rising. This means you don't need to generate that much energy by yourself and most importantly don't need that much lifting. That's why you can take it with a more horizontal motion. At least that's what they taught us in the trainer seminar and makes sense to me.

When you take it later on the ball is dropping, so you need to lift it with a more upward motion.

It's not so much about energy but about how the contact point on a ball for a loop changes when it is on the rise, at the top of the bounce and on the fall. It is easier to show with pictures, but it is also the reason why you can push a ball with a relatively closed paddle if you take it off the bounce as opposed to taking it on the fall, If you try to take really heavy underspin over the table after the top of the bounce, you will net it most of the time if it is below net height because the contact point for passive play as shifted to the bottom front of the ball and you are still trying to touch the back.

NextLevel
09-30-2016, 08:18 PM
I'e always sort of suspected this, since I do power loop drives consistently. All you have to do is learn how to spin the ball forward (which is pretty hard, though). After that, you can just start looping harder and harder, and the ball will just keep getting more speed and spin. It will still go on the table, because you are looping forwards.

With the high loop, if you loop too hard upwards, you will go out, so there is like a pseudo-limitation.

The reason why most people think the high loop has more spin is because the spin to speed ratio is much higher.

The philosophy for looping with harder sponges and tacky rubbers is slightly different. There, you have to loop drive and because the catapult is relatively hard to get, you will get more spin and speed over a wider range of hard impacts than you will with softer sponged Euro rubbers. The trade off is ease of stroke speed at which the spin begins.

Archosaurus
09-30-2016, 08:54 PM
The philosophy for looping with harder sponges and tacky rubbers is slightly different. There, you have to loop drive and because the catapult is relatively hard to get, you will get more spin and speed over a wider range of hard impacts than you will with softer sponged Euro rubbers. The trade off is ease of stroke speed at which the spin begins.
So there is a real benefit to hitting with A LOT of power as opposed to less power? The gains in spin from a slower action with more brush will be surpassed by the same original brushing action with more force?

Boogar
09-30-2016, 09:23 PM
So there is a real benefit to hitting with A LOT of power as opposed to less power? The gains in spin from a slower action with more brush will be surpassed by the same original brushing action with more force?

I wouldn't call it power. More like momentum and racket speed of the bat. It's not like muscle power and hulk smashing stuff.

I notice this a lot with my H3N. Its hard to play slow controlled balls. However if I load and smash through ( ofc with the right bat angle) i get tons of spin and speed. Those hits need the most courage. However if you do it they feel much more safe and controlled.
On the other hand I always need too much time to get the feeling for the right stroke. So i can't use it in most matches.

EDIT: If I remember the feeling of those shots. I think i could play them against different spins with almost the same motion. Well not like heavy backspin and heavy top... more like no spin or a bit top or a bit back wouldn't matter. Which goes more into what Schlager says.

Archosaurus
09-30-2016, 09:43 PM
I wouldn't call it power. More like momentum and racket speed of the bat. It's not like muscle power and hulk smashing stuff.

I notice this a lot with my H3N. Its hard to play slow controlled balls. However if I load and smash its it through ( ofc with the right bat angle) i get tons of spin and speed. Those hits need the most courage. However if you do it they feel much more safe and controlled.
However I always need too much time to get the feeling for the right stroke. So i can't use it in most matches.

EDIT: If I remember the feeling of those shots. I think i could play them against different spins with almost the same motion. Well not like heavy backspin and heavy top... more like no spin or a bit top or a bit back wouldn't matter. Which goes more into what Schlager says.
Power just means more energy in the swing ie: more racket head speed. Not muscle tensing.

I've noticed that my best spin comes from basically a smash with the right racket angle and some tangential action. Not really brushing finely, but not really driving either.

I try to brush as much as I can, and avoid this kind of hitting. Am I doing it wrong?

CroneOne
10-01-2016, 01:04 AM
I've noticed that my best spin comes from basically a smash with the right racket angle and some tangential action. Not really brushing finely, but not really driving either.



I think that's the holy grail of a FH loop. If the planets align, you are well in position to do your loop and your goal is to put the ball back with the most quality you can (max spin, max speed, low to the net) getting that correct percentage of brush and forward motion is essential. I've seen some clips of the pros go too spinny, and those get clobbered back as well as too forward which obviously go off. I think that's why it feels so rewarding to get a nice FH winner...because so many things have to happen correctly in such a short amount of time.

NextLevel
10-01-2016, 01:39 AM
I think that's the holy grail of a FH loop. If the planets align, you are well in position to do your loop and your goal is to put the ball back with the most quality you can (max spin, max speed, low to the net) getting that correct percentage of brush and forward motion is essential. I've seen some clips of the pros go too spinny, and those get clobbered back as well as too forward which obviously go off. I think that's why it feels so rewarding to get a nice FH winner...because so many things have to happen correctly in such a short amount of time.

Since every stroke must also be adapted to the incoming ball, this is mostly a feeling and not a reality.

Archosaurus
10-01-2016, 01:54 AM
Since every stroke must also be adapted to the incoming ball, this is mostly a feeling and not a reality.
This is what I've figured, too. Very often a brush shot appears to be better.

However, on some balls, like no-spin balls, I feel that a harder, flatter contact is actually better.

CroneOne
10-01-2016, 02:27 AM
It's too difficult to talk ideal shots for incoming balls because there's too many subjective opinions. I've been told to always put spin on no spin balls by a coach. You've got articles online saying that it's best to flick no spin https://www.pingskills.com/table-tennis-forum/how-to-return-a-no-spin-serve/
The truth is you can also flat hit them - like you say Archosauru (https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/member.php?27399-Archosaurus)s. There's no rules.
Within that adaptation to the incoming ball there are multiple options with the FH that will return the ball successfully. If we are talking a FH loop attack shot, the maximum quality that I'm concerned with is spin, speed, being low to the net and placed well. When that happens (rare) it's quite rewarding.

NextLevel
10-01-2016, 06:00 AM
It's too difficult to talk ideal shots for incoming balls because there's too many subjective opinions. I've been told to always put spin on no spin balls by a coach. You've got articles online saying that it's best to flick no spin https://www.pingskills.com/table-tennis-forum/how-to-return-a-no-spin-serve/
The truth is you can also flat hit them - like you say Archosauru (https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/member.php?27399-Archosaurus)s. There's no rules.
Within that adaptation to the incoming ball there are multiple options with the FH that will return the ball successfully. If we are talking a FH loop attack shot, the maximum quality that I'm concerned with is spin, speed, being low to the net and placed well. When that happens (rare) it's quite rewarding.

You can flat hit anything - the problem is two fold - you have to read the spin correctly and most of the time, the ball has to be above net height for significant accuracy. I play a kid who likes to drive everything. The problem of course is when the ball is below net height, his accuracy drops significantly. Its when you leave that out that flat hitting is an option.

songdavid98
10-03-2016, 12:00 AM
I've noticed that my best spin comes from basically a smash with the right racket angle and some tangential action. Not really brushing finely, but not really driving either.



Actually, this is how I started spinning the ball forward, and thus loop driving.

I got really tired of looping so many balls out, and I just wanted to start smashing them. Then, I realized that I could put some spin on them, and I started to call them spin-smashes. Shoutout to Roy Li, if you are here, who was present when I created this term.

FOR ME and my chinese rubber:

The smash part gives my shot a low trajectory and lots of forward momentum.
The spin part pushes the ball down and keeps it on the table.

gmiller2233
10-12-2016, 03:15 PM
great thread and time. I have been thinking about this very topic the last few weeks, very cool. I think I'm at the lel that I do think of two different swings. My natural stroke is a topspin drive previously (and I can fall into that if I'm not mindful ), I always had some wood contact but the ball was still plenty spiny. As I continue to develop the past 6 months I have worked on more of a true brush loop wanting a bigger windows and because this stroke fits my developing strategy better. I shortened my swing some and tried to focus on being quick through the swing while do so, and it's been going good. Another reason why I wanted to do more of a true brush loop is because it felt like a smaller adjustment when looping back spin. So this talk about the swing being the same (not the same for me but closer) for both strokes makes a lot of sense. I really appreciate this thread and the links to help me flesh this out some.
Also the discussion on contact point is also interesting. Contact point seems to be (for me right now anyway) the key aspect to continually come back to and focus on. For me it feels like one of the biggest determining factors on success when executing nearly any type of shot and it's the first thing I examine when I missed the shot.


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