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View Full Version : Dimitrij Ovtcharov using Hurricane rubber at World Cup 2016!



Chen Chen
10-02-2016, 05:10 PM
I just received this photo from my friend, a close up of Ovtcharov's forehand rubber at the World Cup. Look, he is using a Chinese rubber looks like a DHS rubber blue sponge?

Strange I think.

10993

Kaispencer
10-02-2016, 05:16 PM
Your welcome for the picture ;). Shocked me too aha.

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

Lucas Nascimento
10-02-2016, 05:25 PM
Another one shocked here o/ hahaha

Boogar
10-02-2016, 05:26 PM
Didn't seem to work too good tho.

fais
10-02-2016, 05:29 PM
I really want this to be true.

What better way to overcome a powerful opponent than studying him first?

RajaLoopah
10-02-2016, 05:30 PM
whoaaaa

RajaLoopah
10-02-2016, 05:45 PM
hahaha so that is why his stroke seems different in the training hall videos haha the loud cracking sound and the slow spinny loop in the end. the closer angle and a different stroke lol my intuition was right haha


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb1SFMgvX-U

Chen Chen
10-02-2016, 05:58 PM
hahaha so that is why his stroke seems different in the training hall videos haha the loud cracking sound and the slow spinny loop in the end. the closer angle and a different stroke lol my intuition was right haha


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb1SFMgvX-U


You are right... tacky rubber with haifu oil...

RajaLoopah
10-02-2016, 06:02 PM
You are right... tacky rubber with haifu oil...
wow Donic has a lot of explaining to do. Look at his shoes, Donic Drive 6? hahaha

Chen Chen
10-02-2016, 06:21 PM
wow Donic has a lot of explaining to do. Look at his shoes, Donic Drive 6? hahaha

I bet donic knows and they are gonna do nothing with this. They needs his face...

Kaispencer
10-02-2016, 06:34 PM
I bet donic knows and they are gonna do nothing with this. They needs his face...
He was using tenergy before. So I doubt this will affect anything

Sent from my ONE A2003 using Tapatalk

RajaLoopah
10-02-2016, 06:45 PM
Perks of playing with Chinese in their Superleague. I wonder whose rubber Dima is using?

shinhyun
10-02-2016, 06:49 PM
He has just stole it from FZD while they are playing hahahaha

tikitiki
10-02-2016, 07:02 PM
blade looks like primorac carbon.
definitely not the ovtcharov most truest carbon :-O

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ittfworld/29440373493/

10994

ajtatosmano2
10-02-2016, 08:39 PM
We shouldn't make statements about that it isn't helping him. Yes, the players ability what is more important, but better equipment won't make them worse. Kristian Karllson played very well and he has a style what's hard to deal with for Dima. Oshima Yuya beat him two times and we can observe some similarities. Both player (OY and KK) has a well developed, very powerful FH and able to attack consistently with power. On the backhand side they both use aggressive close to table shots.

Boogar
10-02-2016, 08:54 PM
You could clearly see that dima wasn't used to the H3. Whenever he opened up with the forehand or tried to to finish points with it he hesitated. It seemed like he had problems with the higher throw angle. In the warm up video we can see his much more horizontal stroke, which he forgot about in the match.

CroneOne
10-02-2016, 09:07 PM
I think it would be pretty difficult to switch to a different set-up at that level.
He may be thinking that by using what the Chinese use, his FH will have an advantage. His expectations would be high perhaps. Miss a few FH's and the equipment change would start to creep in mentally.
I give him thumbs up for wanting to explore changing parts of his game but it must not be not easy when you are trying to re-wire 1000's of hours of conscious to unconscious practice. I bet his coach told him he'd probably lose a few games before it becomes natural.

fais
10-02-2016, 10:15 PM
Are there any non Chinese players using/sponsored by DHS?

James Livesey
10-02-2016, 10:33 PM
YES!!! this is such good news if he can tackle it. a tacky rubber is the meta game imo. needs to be more standard in Europe. better spin on serves, better control and spin in short game, and still exceptional looping ability. weak at slamming, but it's a slam. if you're slamming, then you should win the point regardless of rubber. it's harder to learn also, so you learn really good technique because they are not forgiving.

Lucas Nascimento
10-03-2016, 12:04 AM
Well, whatever he is using, it is not helping him much. Its not the equipment - its the player that matters.

Couldn't agree more. Dima hasn't been in his best days...

Lucas Nascimento
10-03-2016, 12:09 AM
blade looks like primorac carbon.
definitely not the ovtcharov most truest carbon :-O

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ittfworld/29440373493/

10994

I don't think so... At least, the handle is the same as Senso Carbon (picture below)

10995

TTHopeful
10-03-2016, 06:37 AM
I wonder how Donic feel Dima using this? On the other note how would Dimitrij even get this rubber? it must be a national version. My guess it's Hurricane 3 like the rest of the CNT.

Kaispencer
10-03-2016, 08:20 AM
I wonder how Donic feel Dima using this? On the other note how would Dimitrij even get this rubber? it must be a national version. My guess it's Hurricane 3 like the rest of the CNT.
I doubt donic care since he used to use tenergy. And you can get the national version if you have the right contact. ;)

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NextLevel
10-03-2016, 07:39 PM
I actually like how he played with it. With time to adjust, it is a good decision as he definitely pushed better with this forehand.

Jabugo
10-03-2016, 11:37 PM
I think it would be pretty difficult to switch to a different set-up at that level.
He may be thinking that by using what the Chinese use, his FH will have an advantage. His expectations would be high perhaps. Miss a few FH's and the equipment change would start to creep in mentally.
I give him thumbs up for wanting to explore changing parts of his game but it must not be not easy when you are trying to re-wire 1000's of hours of conscious to unconscious practice. I bet his coach told him he'd probably lose a few games before it becomes natural.

Actually, it is not difficult to switch for pros of his level. Top ten players experiment with different rubber often, and if they find they like something, they make the switch to it. And they do not attempt to compete with it until they've gotten plenty of hours with whatever it is that's new in their setup.

There are Japanese players that use H3. It's not that strange for a European player to use H3. But about the sponsor, Donic, well that's strange.

steffi
10-04-2016, 01:26 AM
Why do the Chinese look frustrated? Did he crash their table?


You are right... tacky rubber with haifu oil...

Tembel
10-04-2016, 04:54 AM
I actually like how he played with it. With time to adjust, it is a good decision as he definitely pushed better with this forehand.

I agree with NextLevel, I think his FH was strong in the game vs Karlsson. I think his problem was that he wasn't as fast and as usual.

Tom
10-04-2016, 01:17 PM
Interesting that Dima is using hurricane now, maybe he feels like he has to in order to compete with the Chinese players, will be even more interesting to see if he sticks with it now at the next couple of tournaments.

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ajtatosmano2
10-04-2016, 01:27 PM
Actually, it is not difficult to switch for pros of his level. Top ten players experiment with different rubber often, and if they find they like something, they make the switch to it. And they do not attempt to compete with it until they've gotten plenty of hours with whatever it is that's new in their setup.

There are Japanese players that use H3. It's not that strange for a European player to use H3. But about the sponsor, Donic, well that's strange.

Who uses H3 from Team Japan?

AgavE
10-04-2016, 03:01 PM
really nice to see Dima try smth. new. He is looking forward, not only play games - he want to learn. Double pleasure he is using Hurricane III. But where he will get it for his training process?

Suga D
10-04-2016, 10:47 PM
I just received this photo from my friend, a close up of Ovtcharov's forehand rubber at the World Cup. Look, he is using a Chinese rubber looks like a DHS rubber blue sponge?

Strange I think.

10993

Don't mean to be the spoil sport, but can really anybody see the printing properly?

I blew up the pic to fullscreen but couldn't recognize any details on the topsheet.
Or does anybody maybe have this pic in high res?

What I could see is the blueish colour peeping between the topsheet and the side tape though.
just FTR: Donic also uses rubbers with blue sponges....

And as I already wrote in a different thread, there are TT-players working for the R&D department of ESN that can simply produce ANY rubber with ANY printing on it, but only in small batches 'cause it's quite expensive and therefore only for a few pros.

But if anyone's got this pic in high res it could clear up things.

Maybe it's because all these weird conspiracy theories and practices on the web that made me so sceptical this be questioning each and every thing, but guys from this pic I wouldn't be able to tell anything for sure...

Vrael
10-04-2016, 11:06 PM
Well, in the 1t set dima changed racket sides when smashing (he was smashing with red one). I don't see why would he do that if his black rubber had simillar trampoline effect as tenergy/bluefire or any other non chinese rubber. Also he was so afraid to play fh loops.

I think he took 1 point (maybe 2) using fh loops/drives in 1st set. Even when he got ball into the middle of fh that normally would be perfect ocasion for him to counter loop he just blocked it with bh in very unnatural way. It wasn't even chop block.

It is not a definitive proof, but I guess that using new chinese rubber that he is not used to would explain everything I wrote about above

ttpshot
10-05-2016, 12:07 AM
So another player falls to the dark side (illegal boosting).
I kind of hope Chinese domination continues to the point where everyone boosts and ITTF just legalise the boosting.

Boogar
10-05-2016, 12:15 AM
So another player falls to the dark side (illegal boosting).
I kind of hope Chinese domination continues to the point where everyone boosts and ITTF just legalise the boosting.

As if the Chinese are the only ones to boost. And even if they wouldn't they would still be the best.

ttpshot
10-05-2016, 12:20 AM
Yea, Sammy Sosa still hits the ball further than me without using corked bat. What is your point?

Ilia Minkin
10-05-2016, 12:32 AM
There was a video from a practice in the Super League where Ma Long handed in Dima a racket.

Baal
10-05-2016, 12:48 AM
So another player falls to the dark side (illegal boosting).
I kind of hope Chinese domination continues to the point where everyone boosts and ITTF just legalise the boosting.

They should do that anyway. Even if suddenly the Portugese magically go on a run and their players win the next 8 Grams Slam events, they should still legalize boosting.

RajaLoopah
10-05-2016, 01:53 PM
Don't mean to be the spoil sport, but can really anybody see the printing properly?

I blew up the pic to fullscreen but couldn't recognize any details on the topsheet.
Or does anybody maybe have this pic in high res?

What I could see is the blueish colour peeping between the topsheet and the side tape though.
just FTR: Donic also uses rubbers with blue sponges....

And as I already wrote in a different thread, there are TT-players working for the R&D department of ESN that can simply produce ANY rubber with ANY printing on it, but only in small batches 'cause it's quite expensive and therefore only for a few pros.

But if anyone's got this pic in high res it could clear up things.

Maybe it's because all these weird conspiracy theories and practices on the web that made me so sceptical this be questioning each and every thing, but guys from this pic I wouldn't be able to tell anything for sure...

Try rotating the picture and compare to your Hurricane. I was skeptical at first too but everything changed when I looked closer and compared it to my sheet. The tail of the DHS chinese logo is noticeable.

I will also list the things I noticed :
1. His ridiculous grunting is still there
2. The contact sound seems different
3. The angle of his racket seems more open
4. His stroke seems more "brushier"
5. He is pals with the CNT ;)

ajtatosmano2
10-05-2016, 02:08 PM
So another player falls to the dark side (illegal boosting).
I kind of hope Chinese domination continues to the point where everyone boosts and ITTF just legalise the boosting.

If you look at the top players rackets, you simply see that the rubbers are boosted. Doesn't matter if they boost or they get it boosted, it's clearly visible. If you can't see, or don't believe it, you've never seen a boosted rubber.

fais
10-05-2016, 08:33 PM
So another player falls to the dark side (illegal boosting).
I kind of hope Chinese domination continues to the point where everyone boosts and ITTF just legalise the boosting.

It is not illegal if they get it boosted from the factory. Stop calling TT pros cheaters.

Jabugo
10-05-2016, 09:18 PM
One of my favorite players is Vladimir Samsonov, and he uses MX-P which is factory boosted rubber. No one ever called him a cheater by claiming he's only top 10 at his age because he boosts. The rules are clear. If the factory boosts it, then it's perfectly legal. DHS sponsors the CNT. It's easy for DHS to supply its players with boosted rubber.

AgavE
10-06-2016, 07:02 AM
Mizutani calls CNT "chemists" or something contemptuously. That's a fact.
Mostly of all top players in the world use boosted rubbers. That's another fact.

AgavE
10-06-2016, 07:06 AM
Vladi is my favourite player too, but he is not using rubbers wich you or me can buy at any tt store. Tibhar made rubbers specially for him(weight hardness). And i'm not sure he's not boost his rubbers by himself.

The Omega Man
10-06-2016, 03:49 PM
Karlson boosts too, he even admitted it here once.

tikitiki
10-06-2016, 04:52 PM
One of my favorite players is Vladimir Samsonov, and he uses MX-P which is factory boosted rubber. No one ever called him a cheater by claiming he's only top 10 at his age because he boosts. The rules are clear. If the factory boosts it, then it's perfectly legal. DHS sponsors the CNT. It's easy for DHS to supply its players with boosted rubber.

it would be too complicated for the manufacturer to boost the rubber.
boosting only lasts for a couple of weeks.
between boosting, storing the rubber, sending it by mail, etc... all the booster is gone.
also they would have to send one boosted rubber like every month.
makes much more sense that they do the boosting themselves.

also it's incorrect to say that mx-p is factory boosted.
it is much faster when new but you can say the same thing for tenergy and basically any rubber that came out after the speed glue ban.

Boogar
10-06-2016, 07:59 PM
it would be too complicated for the manufacturer to boost the rubber.
boosting only lasts for a couple of weeks.
between boosting, storing the rubber, sending it by mail, etc... all the booster is gone.
also they would have to send one boosted rubber like every month.
makes much more sense that they do the boosting themselves.

also it's incorrect to say that mx-p is factory boosted.
it is much faster when new but you can say the same thing for tenergy and basically any rubber that came out after the speed glue ban.

I think that all the tensor rubbers are factory boosted. Or even the H3N is, that why its sponge is tacky and smells like fish.

Jabugo
10-06-2016, 08:17 PM
it would be too complicated for the manufacturer to boost the rubber.
boosting only lasts for a couple of weeks.
between boosting, storing the rubber, sending it by mail, etc... all the booster is gone.
also they would have to send one boosted rubber like every month.
makes much more sense that they do the boosting themselves.

also it's incorrect to say that mx-p is factory boosted.
it is much faster when new but you can say the same thing for tenergy and basically any rubber that came out after the speed glue ban.

Okay, I admit I have no way of proving that mx-p is factory boosted. But when my mx-p was new, it had a strong booster smell. And now it has also shrunken a bit on my blade. My t80 never had the smell nor shrunk like the mx-p. The manufacturer never claimed that mx-p is boosted, but my own senses tell me that it is. It is also strange that Tibhar does not show where mx-p is made, so they are definitely not revealing the whole truth about this rubber.

So where do you get your facts that all rubber after the speed glue ban is free from factory boosting? It isn't illegal for the manufacturer to boost. And how do you know it would be too difficult for them to boost rubber? Do you work for the Tibhar rubber factory (where ever that may be)?

Suga D
10-06-2016, 08:32 PM
it would be too complicated for the manufacturer to boost the rubber.
boosting only lasts for a couple of weeks.
between boosting, storing the rubber, sending it by mail, etc... all the booster is gone.
also they would have to send one boosted rubber like every month.
makes much more sense that they do the boosting themselves.


Obviously you don't seem to know how things work.
So here's the story
I have a friend who once was sponsored by Butterfly but he "only" made it up to 2nd Bundesliga even though he played internationally as a youngster. And he would get a new rubber whenever he needed it, but he wasn't allowed to give it away. He had to send it back to BTY.
(Edit:
Now one can now think: damn, they're greedy, or one could say: maybe something shall be hidden from the public eye that isn't meant to be seen by the public eye...)

Before that he was sponsored by Nittaku and could order a certain amount of rubbers per month (!!!)
and then do with the rubber whatever he was up to.
Many times he just gave them away, sometimes to me and other friends.

There even is a company that calls itself
http://www.tt-tuning-center.de
Guess how they earn their money.

Some get their rubbers sent by express mail. But this company officially only works together with tabletennis companies not private persons.
There is a german forum where someone posted how he got lucky and could get 2 rubbers from the tabletennis tuning center.
Here's the link for you to see.
http://forum.tt-news.de/showthread.php?t=89574

But you can only view the pic if your a member.
So here it is.... Hope I don't get in trouble for posting this here.

11016



also it's incorrect to say that mx-p is factory boosted.
it is much faster when new but you can say the same thing for tenergy and basically any rubber that came out after the speed glue ban.

Do you actually know what "Tensor" stands for?
If not here's a clue.
The rubber (topsheet) is put under Tension...

Now how do you think they do that?

By expanding the sponge....

How do they expand the sponge?

Well, ofc by adding booster....

[Emoji12]

Suga D
10-06-2016, 09:31 PM
Okay, I admit I have no way of proving that mx-p is factory boosted. But when my mx-p was new, it had a strong booster smell. And now it has also shrunken a bit on my blade. My t80 never had the smell nor shrunk like the mx-p. The manufacturer never claimed that mx-p is boosted, but my own senses tell me that it is. It is also strange that Tibhar does not show where mx-p is made, so they are definitely not revealing the whole truth about this rubber.

So where do you get your facts that all rubber after the speed glue ban is free from factory boosting? It isn't illegal for the manufacturer to boost. And how do you know it would be too difficult for them to boost rubber? Do you work for the Tibhar rubber factory (where ever that may be)?

Don't worry mate, your senses are working correct.
Tensor means pre boosted.
Tibhar rubber factory = ESN (well for most of their rubbers)
And they don't produce exclusively for tibhar...

Ilia Minkin
10-06-2016, 09:39 PM
Don't worry mate, your senses are working correct.
Tensor means pre boosted.
Tibhar rubber factory = ESN (well for most of their rubbers)
And they don't produce exclusively for tibhar...

Is Tenergy also boosted?

Suga D
10-06-2016, 10:04 PM
Is Tenergy also boosted?

I don't think so. At least not the commercial versions. I guess they use a different technique to put the topsheet under tension. It also doesn't wear off so fast compared to ESN Rubbers and you can see or rather smell yourself that tenergy rubbers don't smell as strong as ESN Rubbers do.

BTW: ESN Founder Dr. Nicklas used to be also co-founder of Donic before he founded his own company and "imported" plenty of knowledge of r&d from japanese rubber experts. I think it's safe to say japanese scientists.
And I also think it's safe to say german rubber technology wouldn't have been possible or maybe very different without these experts where some were formerly working for Yamato Clan or Tamasu Clan.

Ilia Minkin
10-06-2016, 10:27 PM
I don't think so. At least not the commercial versions. I guess they use a different technique to put the topsheet under tension. It also doesn't wear off so fast compared to ESN Rubbers and you can see or rather smell yourself that tenergy rubbers don't smell as strong as ESN Rubbers do.


Not all ESN rubbers smell strongly (or at all) right out of the package. But the loss of speed & spin with time as well shrinkage is quite noticeable. I once tried a few months old, heavily shrunk MX-P -- even though the topsheet was still grippy, it was impossible to spin with it. A huge contrast with a fresh one.

Baal
10-07-2016, 12:41 AM
I don't think so. At least not the commercial versions. I guess they use a different technique to put the topsheet under tension. It also doesn't wear off so fast compared to ESN Rubbers and you can see or rather smell yourself that tenergy rubbers don't smell as strong as ESN Rubbers do.


I agree with this. The Tenergy that I have always had seems unboosted. In VERY marked contrast to MX-P.

Baal
10-07-2016, 12:54 AM
it would be too complicated for the manufacturer to boost the rubber.
boosting only lasts for a couple of weeks.
between boosting, storing the rubber, sending it by mail, etc... all the booster is gone.
also they would have to send one boosted rubber like every month.
makes much more sense that they do the boosting themselves.

also it's incorrect to say that mx-p is factory boosted.
it is much faster when new but you can say the same thing for tenergy and basically any rubber that came out after the speed glue ban.

I don't think this is correct. MX-P smells like booster. Not like some other chemical, but like booster; and moreover, as that particular smell subsides over time, the rubber loses some of its very good qualities. I am not sure what their magic booster formula is, but it lasts awhile. I am convinced that one of the secrets to that particular ESN rubber is some booster like substance added to the rubber at the factory. Of course it has a really good topsheet also, and the sponge is good, but part of the effect is factory boosting, I am absolutely sure of it. Notice also that this generation of ESN rubbers no longer has the Tensor Bios trademark. They have developed something different from what they had before.

Tenergy is not like that at all, does not have that smell, and retains a relatively stable playing property for a longer time (but not long enough as things stand at the moment to justify the price differential, which is why at the moment I am using MX-P and am very happy with it). I think part of the secret to Tenergy is the sponge structure itself. ESN (eventually) figured out part of it, maybe not all of it, and their strategy is to find a way to add booster somewhere in the manufacturing process (which is not the way we do it when we boost at home, and would not be particularly complicated for them to add one step to the process).

Earlier Donic and ESN rubbers (the ones with the Tensor-Bios trademark) had a different sponge (fine pores) and different and not so good topsheets (also very fragile) and if they developed their tension by some form of booster (which I suspect) it was not the same as what they came up with later, and it did not have that same smell at all. Those earlier Tensor rubbers (F1 Desto was the first one I tried many many years ago) threw lower and the various ones I tried never could develop the same level of spin that you get with MX-P. So I stuck with Tenergy 05 from 2008 until a couple of months ago.

Baal
10-07-2016, 04:24 AM
Suga, just noticed that the tuning center is in Neuwied. I believe Soulspin is there too and it's a fairly small town. Connection?

slevin
10-07-2016, 04:45 AM
Suga, just noticed that the tuning center is in Neuwied. I believe Soulspin is there too and it's a fairly small town. Connection?

Well, same person (Lukas Pietzsch) is the MD at both places.

Suga D
10-07-2016, 05:46 AM
Suga, just noticed that the tuning center is in Neuwied. I believe Soulspin is there too and it's a fairly small town. Connection?

They are even located under the same address...

[Emoji2]

tikitiki
10-07-2016, 08:27 AM
Okay, I admit I have no way of proving that mx-p is factory boosted. But when my mx-p was new, it had a strong booster smell. And now it has also shrunken a bit on my blade. My t80 never had the smell nor shrunk like the mx-p. The manufacturer never claimed that mx-p is boosted, but my own senses tell me that it is. It is also strange that Tibhar does not show where mx-p is made, so they are definitely not revealing the whole truth about this rubber.

So where do you get your facts that all rubber after the speed glue ban is free from factory boosting? It isn't illegal for the manufacturer to boost. And how do you know it would be too difficult for them to boost rubber? Do you work for the Tibhar rubber factory (where ever that may be)?

I owned mx-p
I didn't notice any particular smell when new.
I mean all rubbers when new have some smell....
I generally use t05, with butterfly free chack ii, and it has shrunken a lot.

What I'm saying is all rubbers shrink and all rubbers smell when new, so either they are all factory boosted or none is.

there are other category of rubbers, the ones you can identify as boosted like haifu whale II.

tikitiki
10-07-2016, 08:45 AM
I don't think this is correct. MX-P smells like booster. Not like some other chemical, but like booster; and moreover, as that particular smell subsides over time, the rubber loses some of its very good qualities. I am not sure what their magic booster formula is, but it lasts awhile. I am convinced that one of the secrets to that particular ESN rubber is some booster like substance added to the rubber at the factory. Of course it has a really good topsheet also, and the sponge is good, but part of the effect is factory boosting, I am absolutely sure of it. Notice also that this generation of ESN rubbers no longer has the Tensor Bios trademark. They have developed something different from what they had before.

Tenergy is not like that at all, does not have that smell, and retains a relatively stable playing property for a longer time (but not long enough as things stand at the moment to justify the price differential, which is why at the moment I am using MX-P and am very happy with it). I think part of the secret to Tenergy is the sponge structure itself. ESN (eventually) figured out part of it, maybe not all of it, and their strategy is to find a way to add booster somewhere in the manufacturing process (which is not the way we do it when we boost at home, and would not be particularly complicated for them to add one step to the process).

Earlier Donic and ESN rubbers (the ones with the Tensor-Bios trademark) had a different sponge (fine pores) and different and not so good topsheets (also very fragile) and if they developed their tension by some form of booster (which I suspect) it was not the same as what they came up with later, and it did not have that same smell at all. Those earlier Tensor rubbers (F1 Desto was the first one I tried many many years ago) threw lower and the various ones I tried never could develop the same level of spin that you get with MX-P. So I stuck with Tenergy 05 from 2008 until a couple of months ago.

tenergy also becomes slower with time.
the andro rasant I have is pretty old, like 1 year, but I haven't used it that much.
when I glue it, the first session, it's pretty fast and bouncy.
after the first session it changes completely.
it becomes almost like a chinese rubber.

AndySmith
10-07-2016, 09:20 AM
I owned mx-p
I didn't notice any particular smell when new.
I mean all rubbers when new have some smell....
I generally use t05, with butterfly free chack ii, and it has shrunken a lot.


You must have a faulty nose. I would send it back. Different rubbers smell different, and some have very clear booster smells.

That aside, I sort-of agree with some of what you say, but not your conclusion. I think some people have an odd idea of what "factory boosted" means, and conflate manufacturing processes (ESN, Butterfly) with after-production boosting (Haifu, probably DHS), putting it all in the same pot, which is OK as long as you're clear about the distinction IMO.

But anyway - for me, factory boosting isn't just taking a vanilla product we can all buy and doing something special to it, it's treating the rubber with a physical or chemical process which is designed to add "tension" by expanding it. Could be adding something to a finished product, or using something during manufacturing, whatever. This will always be a short/medium term effect depending on what was used. The give-away is that the rubber shrinks after a time, most noticeable when you've had it on a blade for several months and remove it. Initial signs could also be the smell, and any signs of the rubber curling or doming out of the packet, but these aren't reliable and their absence doesn't mean that the rubber hasn't been expanded. Many boosters are odourless.

ESN had a phase where their rubbers didn't have a particular smell (just a vague chemical whiff), but had a lot of doming out of the packet, very noticeable on their softer-sponged products (aurus sound, rakza 7 soft, etc). Annoying to glue down. Then they had a phase where the rubber came flat out of the packet, but there was a very strong and obvious booster smell (TRF booster), and the rubber's performance drops over time (Bluefire M, Evolution -P, Joola MAXX, Gewo Nanoflex - I'm really surprised that you can't smell this on MX-P, it's blindingly obvious). Since then, many more recent ESN don't have the TRF smell (MX-S, Rakza X, Omega V, lots and lots of others), but that doesn't mean they aren't using an odorless booster. Who knows? I've also noticed that they don't shrink as much as they used to over time - I've got a few sheets of Omega V Asia which are one year old now, off their blades, and they still fit perfectly.

About Butterfly - Tenergy has a smell when fresh out of the packet, but it's more like a faint smell of pine, and running your finger over the sponge has a slightly oily feel (in comparison with other rubbers). The big red flag is how much tenergy shrinks over time. IMO, it's definitely factory boosted (meaning the sponge is expanded as part of the process, and the effect is going to dissipate over time, not that some random bloke takes tenergy sheets off the production line and brushes the sponge with haifu oil or some nonsense like that). This isn't me having a go at Butterfly, and Tenergy is a great rubber, but the real world is what it is - modern rubbers are made like this, and the actions of the ITTF mean that you can't legally extend the life of your rubber by boosting personally. I also think that Butterfly have changed what they do with Tenergy over the years - I got my very first sheets on release day and they didn't have the pine smell, didn't shrink anywhere nearly as much, and kept their playing properties for longer (but were possibly slower - this is a few years ago now, so I can't expect perfect recall here). It's very hard to know anything for sure - even pros aren't allowed to see everything when they visit the factory (check Freitas' comments on this in his TTD podcast), but this is just my opinion based on what I see and feel.

For another interesting viewpoint, see this blog entry, linked from tak9.com today:

http://blog.naver.com/defunct/220830269324

It's a little blog entry (I presume from Nexy themselves) about Nexy Karis M, and their "insider" view on the recent history of rubber production. Not unbiased, but interesting nonetheless.

And this is without getting into the murky world of chinese-made rubber, after-production boosting of stuff by DHS for the CNT, or touching on recent made-in-japan stiga rubbers which have a pronounced curl reminiscent of early-gen ESN. And there are still rubbers on the market which don't shrink, and so I would imagine aren't factory boosted.

tikitiki
10-07-2016, 09:38 AM
You must have a faulty nose. I would send it back. Different rubbers smell different, and some have very clear booster smells.

That aside, I sort-of agree with some of what you say, but not your conclusion. I think some people have an odd idea of what "factory boosted" means, and conflate manufacturing processes (ESN, Butterfly) with after-production boosting (Haifu, probably DHS), putting it all in the same pot, which is OK as long as you're clear about the distinction IMO.

But anyway - for me, factory boosting isn't just taking a vanilla product we can all buy and doing something special to it, it's treating the rubber with a physical or chemical process which is designed to add "tension" by expanding it. Could be adding something to a finished product, or using something during manufacturing, whatever. This will always be a short/medium term effect depending on what was used. The give-away is that the rubber shrinks after a time, most noticeable when you've had it on a blade for several months and remove it. Initial signs could also be the smell, and any signs of the rubber curling or doming out of the packet, but these aren't reliable and their absence doesn't mean that the rubber hasn't been expanded. Many boosters are odourless.

ESN had a phase where their rubbers didn't have a particular smell (just a vague chemical whiff), but had a lot of doming out of the packet, very noticeable on their softer-sponged products (aurus sound, rakza 7 soft, etc). Annoying to glue down. Then they had a phase where the rubber came flat out of the packet, but there was a very strong and obvious booster smell (TRF booster), and the rubber's performance drops over time (Bluefire M, Evolution -P, Joola MAXX, Gewo Nanoflex - I'm really surprised that you can't smell this on MX-P, it's blindingly obvious). Since then, many more recent ESN don't have the TRF smell (MX-S, Rakza X, Omega V, lots and lots of others), but that doesn't mean they aren't using an odorless booster. Who knows? I've also noticed that they don't shrink as much as they used to over time - I've got a few sheets of Omega V Asia which are one year old now, off their blades, and they still fit perfectly.

About Butterfly - Tenergy has a smell when fresh out of the packet, but it's more like a faint smell of pine, and running your finger over the sponge has a slightly oily feel (in comparison with other rubbers). The big red flag is how much tenergy shrinks over time. IMO, it's definitely factory boosted (meaning the sponge is expanded as part of the process, and the effect is going to dissipate over time, not that some random bloke takes tenergy sheets off the production line and brushes the sponge with haifu oil or some nonsense like that). This isn't me having a go at Butterfly, and Tenergy is a great rubber, but the real world is what it is - modern rubbers are made like this, and the actions of the ITTF mean that you can't legally extend the life of your rubber by boosting personally. I also think that Butterfly have changed what they do with Tenergy over the years - I got my very first sheets on release day and they didn't have the pine smell, didn't shrink anywhere nearly as much, and kept their playing properties for longer (but were possibly slower - this is a few years ago now, so I can't expect perfect recall here). It's very hard to know anything for sure - even pros aren't allowed to see everything when they visit the factory (check Freitas' comments on this in his TTD podcast), but this is just my opinion based on what I see and feel.

For another interesting viewpoint, see this blog entry, linked from tak9.com today:

http://blog.naver.com/defunct/220830269324

It's a little blog entry (I presume from Nexy themselves) about Nexy Karis M, and their "insider" view on the recent history of rubber production. Not unbiased, but interesting nonetheless.

And this is without getting into the murky world of chinese-made rubber, after-production boosting of stuff by DHS for the CNT, or touching on recent made-in-japan stiga rubbers which have a pronounced curl reminiscent of early-gen ESN. And there are still rubbers on the market which don't shrink, and so I would imagine aren't factory boosted.

well you shouldn't call it boosting then.
boosting to me is taking a rubber that has already been finished and applying a product to it.
like haifu or falco.

if in the production of the sponge they apply a certain product that makes it more lively for some time then great, it's part of the process and perfectly fair.

it doesn't make sense that this product if it exists is falco or haifu.
falco and haifu say that their booster effect lasts at most 1 month.
most rubbers between the time they are produced and the time the final user gets them, it will be at least 3, 4 months.

many times you even get rubbers that have been produced one year before or more.
do you think falco or haifu would last this long?

personally I agree that a new mx.p will be really fast maybe the first month or so of usage.
it's what you get from a new rubber.
but I definitely don't think the reason for this is falco or haifu or any product like that.
-you would see a layer of something in the sponge
-the rubber would be curled
-the effect would last very little time
that's definitely what rubbers like haifu whale II do, but not tensors.

Boogar
10-07-2016, 10:36 AM
well you shouldn't call it boosting then.
boosting to me is taking a rubber that has already been finished and applying a product to it.
like haifu or falco.

if in the production of the sponge they apply a certain product that makes it more lively for some time then great, it's part of the process and perfectly fair.

it doesn't make sense that this product if it exists is falco or haifu.
falco and haifu say that their booster effect lasts at most 1 month.
most rubbers between the time they are produced and the time the final user gets them, it will be at least 3, 4 months.

many times you even get rubbers that have been produced one year before or more.
do you think falco or haifu would last this long?

personally I agree that a new mx.p will be really fast maybe the first month or so of usage.
it's what you get from a new rubber.
but I definitely don't think the reason for this is falco or haifu or any product like that.
-you would see a layer of something in the sponge
-the rubber would be curled
-the effect would last very little time
that's definitely what rubbers like haifu whale II do, but not tensors.

It seems like you did not get what was said. And just because you definition of boosting is different, doesn't mean that its the right one.

AndySmith
10-07-2016, 11:33 AM
It seems like you did not get what was said. And just because you definition of boosting is different, doesn't mean that its the right one.

Exactly. It's semantics to a large degree.

About the distinction between factory treatment and things you do at home - the point isn't that the factory use the same stuff that the public do (or the pros do, even) - they could use totally different chemicals, or the same chemicals in a different way, or at a different stage of the process. Doesn't matter. The factories supply some rubbers which shrink within a period of, what, 6 months? And some which do not. This suggests something, and we give it a blanket label of "factory tuning" or "factory boosting", but we do this without knowing the manufacturing processes involved, and without suggesting that they're just pouring falco over everything.

As regards the rules, the factory can do whatever they want (as long as the finished sheets meet ITTF regulations, of course). You have many factories producing rubbers which smell, look, feel, behave as boosted, with a tell-tale drop-off in performance. You have some, like Haifu, who offer tuned and untuned products, which give an insight into what they do internally (not the same approach as ESN, obviously). And then you have DHS, who offer a commercial product which doesn't 100% reflect the product the CNT ends up with (different sponges, obvious boosting). All within the rules, or at least undetectable infringements of the rules, but only because the rules are stupid and unenforceable.

tikitiki
10-07-2016, 11:46 AM
I understand everything said habibi, it just doesn't sound logical.

AndySmith
10-07-2016, 12:06 PM
I understand everything said habibi, it just doesn't sound logical.

Using words to describe situations might not sound logical to you, but it's how people communicate. It sometimes isn't perfect, but that's life. People use the label "factory boosted" to describe a wide range of things they see, feel and experience. And it's a useful label because it tells us something about how the product behaves and changes over time, even if people don't know what exactly goes on in the "factory". In the absence of a different term to use, it will have to do.

You seems to be suggesting something quite different and highly specific to you, so rather than ask people to stop using it, perhaps adjust your own self-imposed definition or come up with a new way to label rubbers which smell of booster and shrink in a short time frame after being supplied from the factory so people can continue to describe what they see, feel and experience. Because it's useful for people to say "MX-P seems factory boosted" - it allows us to distinguish it from rubbers which don't quickly (relatively) shrink and have sharp performance drop-offs.

Boogar
10-07-2016, 12:08 PM
AH its the habibi guy... just ignore him he is a troll.

tikitiki
10-07-2016, 12:12 PM
just do as I say and you'll be fine.
there's a saying in my country egypt "if it has wings and it flies, then it must be a turtle".

AndySmith
10-07-2016, 12:36 PM
just do as I say and you'll be fine.
there's a saying in my country egypt "if it has wings and it flies, then it must be a turtle".

You have convinced me - from now on I'll say that these rubbers have been factory turtled.

Suga D
10-07-2016, 01:02 PM
This suggests something, and we give it a blanket label of "factory tuning" or "factory boosting", but we do this without knowing the manufacturing processes involved, and without suggesting that they're just pouring falco over everything.

Aaahahahaaa. This' crackin' me up.
Now I can't get that pic out of my head anymore... LoL

11018

[Emoji2]



All within the rules, or at least undetectable infringements of the rules, but only because the rules are stupid and unenforceable.

This statement actually deserves some kind of Award. Verbal gold.
Excellent Andy. Thank you.

Baal
10-07-2016, 02:13 PM
Andy is right. I am sure also the things these companies do to get theit various boost effects are closely guarded secrets and are not all the same. When I used to be able to order T05 sheets from tt-japan they played better. One reason I switched to MX-P is Tenergy I could buy here was not as good. A loss of booster? I have no idea.

I agree also, if you can't smell the booster in MX-P there is something wrong with the sheets (or your nose) It is intense.. I don't know Rasant but for any rubber I have tried a loss of speed in one day would almost certainly have more to do with gluing technique than anything else. My rubbers properly glued never shrink on the blade. Tenergy 05 or MX-P. Don't stretch them when gluing! For some reason about 4 out of 5 times if I detach them from the blade and try to reuse them, their property is degraded.

Baal
10-07-2016, 03:42 PM
The other thing is that I would bet a great deal that whatever they are doing with MX-P entails adding something to the sponge very late in the production process. Bear in mind also that ITTF only regulates topsheets, not sponges, except for the thickness. So, really, their rule against adding something to the sponge puts them in a logical bind. As far as I am concerned, boost away. I don't boost my rubbers because they don't need it, they come that way, but I don't care if you do.

slevin
10-07-2016, 04:32 PM
For some reason about 4 out of 5 times if I detach them from the blade and try to reuse them, their property is degraded.

A tip: a big reason for this probably is the type of glue you use.

I have been trying Finezip but even though it is relatively easy to remove, it degrades sponge and the rubber is not so good to use the 2nd time. I am sure most commercially available WBGs (like Free Chack) are worse in this regard.

In contrast, Tearmender is the best glue in terms of minimal damage done to overall rubber characteristics.

Baal
10-07-2016, 06:39 PM
A tip: a big reason for this probably is the type of glue you use.

I have been trying Finezip but even though it is relatively easy to remove, it degrades sponge and the rubber is not so good to use the 2nd time. I am sure most commercially available WBGs (like Free Chack) are worse in this regard.

In contrast, Tearmender is the best glue in terms of minimal damage done to overall rubber characteristics.

That could be it, but I am satisfied with Finezip/Free Chack 2 because I like the quality and ease of the attachment the first time, much more than Tearmender, and I don't switch around rubbers and blades except on quite rare occasions. My equipment use tends to be pretty stable over relatively long periods of time! I used Viscaria blades from 2007 until just a few months ago (to a different blade that frankly differs only in handle shape), and at that time I also switched from T05 to MX-P on my FH. I occasionally tested out a newer or older Viscaria and I could get a pretty good feel for the blade with a used rubber even if it was not as good as it had been just before detaching.

tikitiki
10-07-2016, 06:48 PM
oh and for the guy who was saying that they have a magical secret process, that the new rubbers don't show the tensor bios sign anymore....
check andro rasant rubbers.
they have the tensor bios like always.
tibhar and donic probably hide it for marketing reasons, they want users to remember their brand, not the tensor sign.

Baal
10-07-2016, 07:26 PM
oh and for the guy who was saying that they have a magical secret process, that the new rubbers don't show the tensor bios sign anymore....
check andro rasant rubbers.
they have the tensor bios like always.
tibhar and donic probably hide it for marketing reasons, they want users to remember their brand, not the tensor sign.

That is actually a good observation. Andro may also still be in some sort of marketing agreement that requires them to use the trademark, and maybe a similar agreement expired for Tibhar and Donic. It could suggest however, that the technology in Andro Rasant is not the same as in the Tibhar/Donic rubbers, although I strongly doubt that is the explanation).

Whatever it is, and you may be right, MX-P abd Bluefire are nothing at all like the earlier Tibhar/Donic rubbers that had the Bios trademark. And smell is part of the big difference,and that is a smell of booster.

I found this video that was kind of interesting, it doesn't say anything about a boost effect, but still pretty cool.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdhGxd-oxas

t95mwp
10-07-2016, 07:39 PM
Here is the interesting blog about history of ESN rubbers.

http://blog.naver.com/defunct/220830269324

Baal
10-07-2016, 07:43 PM
He has been talking about that new Karis rubber for awhile, it will be interesting to see what he has come up with.

i thought it was interesting that he mentioned that T05 has gotten softer in recent years. I think that is correct, it seemed like it wasn't the same as when I first started using it, but I wasn't sure.

UpSideDownCarl
10-07-2016, 11:06 PM
Yamato Clan or Tamasu Clan.

Original goon squad strong men.


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UpSideDownCarl
10-08-2016, 12:15 AM
Hey a lot of great posts in this thread. Particularly from Baal and Andy. Outstanding stuff.

Here is the video from DTop to, hopefully, make some people laugh:


https://youtu.be/y0uPYv3rq0c

This one could help too:


https://youtu.be/pW2q9nnD2fk


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TTHopeful
10-08-2016, 02:25 PM
So much great posts. Tibhar dominating the non tenergy market via boosting rubbers in the factory... genius :cool:

bobpuls
10-08-2016, 07:22 PM
stop hijacking thread with this ... who cares when ittf not and carl this videos are just stupid....
give me some more info about the Dima`s experience.

AgavE
10-08-2016, 08:28 PM
seems that no one knows about it... pity.

Baal
10-09-2016, 01:34 AM
It may be a few more events to know if he sticks with it, and if so how it works for him. Right now, not enough data.

tikitiki
10-09-2016, 02:52 PM
he should have kept on tenergy.
at least that way they could say the chinese beat them because of h3.
now there's no more excuses.

personally I think equipment is not so important.
remember for example li ping, at some point he was using acuda rubbers and still playing in the chinese team.
or now aruna quadri, he's not even using tenergy, he uses joola rubbers, and he still has one of the best forehands in the world.

Baal
10-09-2016, 04:33 PM
Except Chinese rubber has always been really different from Tenergy or ESN. Maybe with boosting nowadays they aren't so different? Seems hard to believe but I don't have experience wit pro boosted DHS.

TTHopeful
10-10-2016, 07:08 AM
Some new data Baal and co. Dimitrij is still using the Hurricane rubber in the champions league match which was after the world cup. Ovt makes so many mistakes with his forehand throughout the game.

At 5.11 you can see he twiddles to smash the ball with his backhand rubber which indicates to me he still has Hurricane on the forehand.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b1jVLVx3gg

Ilia Minkin
10-10-2016, 07:27 AM
His style also looks super FH-oriented. Just look at the epic sprint from his FH corner back to BH to open up at 5:42.

AgavE
10-10-2016, 07:47 AM
Very unstable game of Dima, but i wish he will stay with H3, because it has very lot of spin. Stability will come with the time...

Suga D
10-10-2016, 09:38 PM
Except Chinese rubber has always been really different from Tenergy or ESN. Maybe with boosting nowadays they aren't so different? Seems hard to believe but I don't have experience wit pro boosted DHS.

Well I can tell from experience that i think there is some difference.

Here's the story:
Last time we'd been trained by a pro the coach brought a W968 with Stiga handles and boosted H3 FH and slightly boosted T05. He let me hit with it for a while but it felt way more head-heavy than mine, plus the head was also a bit bigger, so i gave it back after about half an hour....
(Probably just love my blade too much too. For further details please pm)

Afaik he's got it from someone from CNT, but can't recall anymore whose blade it was. One thing the two rubbers DO have in common though is that beautiful high throw.
But as you know T05 isn't tacky at all and hence a little more bouncy, plus I think the T05 topsheet is a bit softer too.
Whereas the boosted H3 is also quite bouncy for a semi tacky rubber but the slight tack lets the ball bounce a little less than T05 does, which actually is an advantage at serve/receive and in the shortgame.
Whilst looping a couple of times i was expecting the ball to go long, but it pulled down on the table in the highest arc i've ever had seen due to all that generated spin. I think its arc is quite a bit higher than the T05.
Probably can take some time to get used to that, but it's been a total blast.
Although I prefer the T05 on the BH. No other rubber i've tried seemed to be so complete (talkin' about overall behaviour). It took a minute to adjust, 'cause I never played a boosted T05 before. I never felt the need to boost it.

Whoa, this somehow became a little review..
[Emoji12]

Sorry Chen Chen for the little derail.
I guess I got carried away a little.

Back to topic:
I really wish someone had a clear pic of Dima's FH rubber.
But I think you're right anyway.
;)
Thanks for sharing the info, buddy.

TTHopeful
10-11-2016, 01:43 PM
Let's put it this way. I'm not an internet troll, although you certainly are right on the line of that. Also I am not your friend, make no mistakes about that. I've tried to be civil even though most of what you post is nonsense. But how about instead you eat $**# and die.

Hei Baal I didn't mean to offend you sorry.. i just wanted to show that it looks like Dimitrij has stayed with H3

Suga D
10-11-2016, 02:20 PM
Hei Baal I didn't mean to offend you sorry.. i just wanted to show that it looks like Dimitrij has stayed with H3

This wasn't directed your way. It was going out to Tikitiki who has meanwhile deleted his rude comment

Xylit
10-11-2016, 03:12 PM
On Youtube someone suggest that Ovtcharov not only plays with chinese rubber but also with Ma Long's personal blade?

UpSideDownCarl
10-11-2016, 05:52 PM
stop hijacking thread with this ... who cares when ittf not and carl this videos are just stupid....
give me some more info about the Dima`s experience.

The information about Dima seemed to have been covered and finished. The subject of the thread had turned to boosting vs rubbers that were tuned or boosted by the manufacturer before they leave the plant. And how boosting is against the rules but many pros get around that by having their sponsors do the boosting to their specifications. The conversation was I interesting and useful.

Despite those videos being DTop's parody about the ITTF and table tennis, the information he presents on the subject is actually pretty real.

If you were unable to follow the chain of thought, sorry. But there is no need for you to call names. There is too much of that going on here.


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UpSideDownCarl
10-11-2016, 06:13 PM
By the way, when I used to get Tenergy at a discount from a sponsored player, I always felt it felt a grade or 3 better than what you would get from a distributor like Paddle Palace (a local distributor for my region). I was never sure till one time I had just got a brand new set. It was shipped straight from Japan to the sponsored player who I got it from a day after it arrived. I glued it on. And it just happened that a friend glued a brand new set of rubbers onto his IF ZLF. At the time I was using my TB ZLF. We both had ordered T05 FH and T05FX BH. I know his blade and the contrast between it and my blade. When I tried his blade with his brand new rubbers after using mine that came straight from Butterfly in Japan, the difference was pretty big. His rubbers felt old, dried out and dead. My rubbers felt alive.

I wish I could still get rubbers that way.

Now Der_Echte is going to send the goon squad after me for mentioning Pro rubbers. [emoji2]


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Ilia Minkin
10-11-2016, 06:17 PM
When I tried his blade with his brand new rubbers after using mine that came straight from Butterfly in Japan, the difference was pretty big. His rubbers felt old, dried out and dead. My rubbers felt alive.

I wish I could still get rubbers that way.

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Sounds like a difference between non-boosted and boosted rubbers.

UpSideDownCarl
10-11-2016, 06:21 PM
Sounds like a difference between non-boosted and boosted rubbers.

Without question. At the time I said to my friend, "It feels like my rubbers have been boosted."


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Baal
10-11-2016, 07:37 PM
TTH, Wasn't responding to you at all!!!!!! Sorry if you thought so.

Was responding to our "habibi" dude, the loser internet troll who can't smell booster.

Since he deleted his post I thought about deleting mine but have decided not to, because on general principles my last sentence (about a recommendation for how he might leave this earth) stands.


Hei Baal I didn't mean to offend you sorry.. i just wanted to show that it looks like Dimitrij has stayed with H3

AgavE
10-11-2016, 07:55 PM
Without question. At the time I said to my friend, "It feels like my rubbers have been boosted."


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It's a known fact, tenergy from japan market (label JPN instead of TBE) are better more flexible, more durable etc.
also blades too - for mine example i have bty jun mizutani from japan (label JTTAA on bottom of the handle) and i had european mizutani without that label - two big difference.

AgavE
10-11-2016, 07:58 PM
On Youtube someone suggest that Ovtcharov not only plays with chinese rubber but also with Ma Long's personal blade?
Personal ML blade with donic handle? nah... don't think so. ALC carbon has special look at the edge of blade.

ttpshot
10-11-2016, 09:40 PM
That's interesting, as most of the top sponsored players in Japan visits Butterfly factory and pick their rubbers straight out of the production. Most of them(Mizutani, Yoshimura etc) just choose the one with harder top sheet while some(Matsudaira) are obsessed with the color of the top sheet. Butterfly Sales person who has a son in the same club has taken me to Tamasu when Matsudaira was choosing his and it took 3 hours to choose 10 sheets so they must care about something...!
Lower grade sponsored players(top high school for eg) are supplied with 8 sheets per month by mail.

Rubbers are no different from what we buy at the local store except they get to pick theirs first. BUT, that's coming from Butterfly Sales so it could just be sales talk as many of you feel and believe that sponsored rubbers perform better.

Not sure if they can apply more boosting to Tenergy when they don't apply booster post production like DHS or Haifu. But like you guys say, Butterfly could supply top players with more boosted rubbers or supply different rubbers to different regions or it could just be all psychological. Love to read the researches on this topic.

UpSideDownCarl
10-11-2016, 10:24 PM
That's interesting, as most of the top sponsored players in Japan visits Butterfly factory and pick their rubbers straight out of the production. Most of them(Mizutani, Yoshimura etc) just choose the one with harder top sheet while some(Matsudaira) are obsessed with the color of the top sheet. Butterfly Sales person who has a son in the same club has taken me to Tamasu when Matsudaira was choosing his and it took 3 hours to choose 10 sheets so they must care about something...!
Lower grade sponsored players(top high school for eg) are supplied with 8 sheets per month by mail.

Rubbers are no different from what we buy at the local store except they get to pick theirs first. BUT, that's coming from Butterfly Sales so it could just be sales talk as many of you feel and believe that sponsored rubbers perform better.

Not sure if they can apply more boosting to Tenergy when they don't apply booster post production like DHS or Haifu. But like you guys say, Butterfly could supply top players with more boosted rubbers or supply different rubbers to different regions or it could just be all psychological. Love to read the researches on this topic.

It could also simply be the difference between a rubber that came right off the production line and did not sit on a shelf and one that was sitting on a shelf at Paddle Palace for a few months. I will never know but it was the best set of Tenergy I have tried.


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NextLevel
10-11-2016, 10:28 PM
The funny thing is that my hand is never good enough to sense all these things. I play best with 1 year old Tenergy. LOL.

laistrogian
10-11-2016, 11:27 PM
The funny thing is that my hand is never good enough to sense all these things. I play best with 1 year old Tenergy. LOL.

Sometimes there also can be placebo effect in play.

UpSideDownCarl
10-12-2016, 12:27 AM
Sometimes there also can be placebo effect in play.

The interesting thing was the scenario was perfect for feeling the difference.

This is one of my main training partners. His rubbers were dead longer than mine. When he heard I was going to change rubbers he decided he would too because he wanted to compare blades. He has IF ZLF. At the time I was playing with TB ZLF. He was trying to convince himself that he liked my blade better and wanted to get one. Truthfully he wanted mine but I have no intention of selling a blade I got from Michael Landers.

When we both put the new rubbers on the difference was stark and unmistakeable. I felt bad because he walked away not liking his blade as much as mine or his brand new rubbers.

My hand is sensitive to stuff like this. This guy's hand is not. But the difference was still clear.

But then, I have also tried rubbers that guys who are 2300-2400 have boosted the hell out of and that feels nothing like before they were boosted. That is an even bigger difference.


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NextLevel
10-12-2016, 03:12 AM
Sometimes there also can be placebo effect in play.

Don't replace archo...

AgavE
10-12-2016, 08:34 AM
tenergy is not an easy rubber to boost.
it curls like hell and is very difficult to stick to the blade.
Only one thin layer Falco long tempo booster would be enough for tenergy. apply right on the glue layer, wait till oil soak onto the sponge and glue the rubber to the blade (don't wait till dome will curve it). simply.

AgavE
10-12-2016, 09:20 AM
yeah I have 2 tenergies I boosted with 1 layer.
when I used free chack II it did stick, but after some time you could see it wanted to get off.
when I used rubber cement it domed even more and there was no way to glue it.
for comparison, I have two andro rasant I boosted and glued with rubber cement and they are still stuck.
I did put tape over the rubbers which won't allow them to get off.
but well they need to initially be flat in order to put the tape.

the tenergies with 1 layer + some rubber cement are still domed and I assume they would not glue easily.
I did the boosting last friday!!!!
I use nittaku finezip - ok, dianchi WBG - ok, Revolution no3 - ok.
Curved edges, then rubber on the blade are ok.

bobpuls
10-12-2016, 09:42 AM
The information about Dima seemed to have been covered and finished. The subject of the thread had turned to boosting vs rubbers that were tuned or boosted by the manufacturer before they leave the plant. And how boosting is against the rules but many pros get around that by having their sponsors do the boosting to their specifications. The conversation was I interesting and useful.

Despite those videos being DTop's parody about the ITTF and table tennis, the information he presents on the subject is actually pretty real.

If you were unable to follow the chain of thought, sorry. But there is no need for you to call names. There is too much of that going on here.


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Sorry for that but the news still comes (thanks to TTHopeful) and this i think is just start.... I love how Dima is playing with it and from now he is my personal favorite.
And yes bosting is good . who tried it will hardly goes back.

AgavE
10-12-2016, 09:47 AM
wbg is a mess if you're gonna boost all the time.
every time you take the rubber out you have to take the glue out of it and start all over again.


Why??? Just add 1 layer of booster, then add 1 layer of glue, apply the rubber on blade. That's it!

edgy
10-12-2016, 11:38 AM
49 minutes seems a little excessive don't you think? And you could just do it while you're waiting for the booster/glue to dry ;)

AgavE
10-12-2016, 12:39 PM
yeah but then 1 month later you remove the rubber from the blade.
you need to
1- remove remains of glue from blade (5 mins)
2- remove glue from rubber (10 mins with danger that some sponge will come off)
3-apply booster again (1 min)
4- wait 20 mins until booster is dry
5- apply glue in rubber and blade (3 min)
6- let dry (10 min)
7- reapply (hoping you don't miss and glue them out of center)

49 mins of my life I could have spent masturbating!!!

WHY? just remove the rubber from blade, add 1 layer booster wait for a dry, add 1 layer of glue - glue it, that's it.
and BTW did you see movie with removing Revolution no3 glue? it's a simple procedure.
PS: you're sexual gigant, 49minutes... wow ;-)))))

Ilia Minkin
10-12-2016, 12:44 PM
yeah but then 1 month later you remove the rubber from the blade.
you need to
1- remove remains of glue from blade (5 mins)
2- remove glue from rubber (10 mins with danger that some sponge will come off)
3-apply booster again (1 min)
4- wait 20 mins until booster is dry
5- apply glue in rubber and blade (3 min)
6- let dry (10 min)
7- reapply (hoping you don't miss and glue them out of center)

49 mins of my life I could have spent masturbating!!!

Why remove the glue from the rubber? If you apply booster on the rubber over the glue, it will dissolve the glue, so that it will be sticky again. When I reboost rubbers, only apply the glue to the blade.

UpSideDownCarl
10-12-2016, 12:44 PM
wbg is a mess if you're gonna boost all the time.
every time you take the rubber out you have to take the glue out of it and start all over again.

if it works with rubber cement it's easier.
first time you put rubber cement on the rubber.
after this you just take the rubber out, boost it, layer of glue in the blade and that's all.
but I don't know, I think I will go back to unboosted tenergy,
with boosted rasant the racket is like 10g heavier than with unboosted tenergy.


wbg is a mess if you're gonna boost all the time.
every time you take the rubber out you have to take the glue out of it and start all over again.

if it works with rubber cement it's easier.
first time you put rubber cement on the rubber.
after this you just take the rubber out, boost it, layer of glue in the blade and that's all.
but I don't know, I think I will go back to unboosted tenergy,
with boosted rasant the racket is like 10g heavier than with unboosted tenergy.

I say this means BUSTED!!!!!

Top quoted is a deleted quote from kukamonga. Underneath, the same quote from tikitiki.


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tikitiki
10-12-2016, 01:00 PM
I say this means BUSTED!!!!!

Top quoted is a deleted quote from kukamonga. Underneath, the same quote from tikitiki.


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I read some posts from kukamonga before, he knows his stuff.
actually I was starting to think he might be able to beat ovtcharov once in a blue moon.

UpSideDownCarl
10-12-2016, 02:05 PM
I read some posts from kukamonga before, he knows his stuff.
actually I was starting to think he might be able to beat ovtcharov once in a blue moon.

The time stamp on the kukamonga post is moments before the time stamp on the tikitiki post. The posts are word for word, exactly the same.

What happened: Sebas logged out of the tikitiki account and logged in as kukamonga to answer a PM from me. Then he came back to the thread to post but forgot to log out of the kukamonga account. He posted. He saw he posted as kukamonga. He deleted the post. Logged out. Logged back in as tikitiki and reposted the same exact post. There is only a very short time between posts.

Tikitiki is kukamonga is Sebas Aguirre.


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AndySmith
10-12-2016, 02:58 PM
I say this means BUSTED!!!!!

Sloppy sock puppetry is the best sock puppetry.

Jabugo
10-12-2016, 03:29 PM
It could also simply be the difference between a rubber that came right off the production line and did not sit on a shelf and one that was sitting on a shelf at Paddle Palace for a few months. I will never know but it was the best set of Tenergy I have tried.


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Butterfly may have very high quality control (i.e. toss out the sheets that DHS would sell as International Commercial), but among the sheets they do keep, there is still probably a very wide variance. What you may have experienced with that sheet of Tenergy may be the equivalent of a National level sheet from DHS. Maybe that is why the Japanese pros get to personally choose which sheets they want because Butterfly does not go through the high level of sorting that DHS does (National/Provincial/Domestic Commercial/International Commercial). I'm only speculating.

UpSideDownCarl
10-12-2016, 08:12 PM
Butterfly may have very high quality control (i.e. toss out the sheets that DHS would sell as International Commercial), but among the sheets they do keep, there is still probably a very wide variance. What you may have experienced with that sheet of Tenergy may be the equivalent of a National level sheet from DHS. Maybe that is why the Japanese pros get to personally choose which sheets they want because Butterfly does not go through the high level of sorting that DHS does (National/Provincial/Domestic Commercial/International Commercial). I'm only speculating.

But if there was that kind of coincidence, it makes it even more of a coincidence that I had two of the good ones and my friend had to of the not as good ones. I had T05 and T05FX and he had T05 and T05FX and both my rubbers were of equal quality and his were of the same not so special quality.


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Tryzerlol
10-12-2016, 09:44 PM
The time stamp on the kukamonga post is moments before the time stamp on the tikitiki post. The posts are word for word, exactly the same.

What happened: Sebas logged out of the tikitiki account and logged in as kukamonga to answer a PM from me. Then he came back to the thread to post but forgot to log out of the kukamonga account. He posted. He saw he posted as kukamonga. He deleted the post. Logged out. Logged back in as tikitiki and reposted the same exact post. There is only a very short time between posts.

Tikitiki is kukamonga is Sebas Aguirre.


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Can somebody explain to the layman who hasn't been on the forum for a very long time what the deal is with this guy? Besides the fact that he is using multiple accounts and writes a lot of gibberish, what's up with the witchhunt? People grabbed the pitchforks after his very first post in this thread.

UpSideDownCarl
10-12-2016, 10:31 PM
Can somebody explain to the layman who hasn't been on the forum for a very long time what the deal is with this guy? Besides the fact that he is using multiple accounts and writes a lot of gibberish, what's up with the witchhunt? People grabbed the pitchforks after his very first post in this thread.

There were already 2 previous threads where tikitiki got people calling names, arguing and angry with each other. He is here to entertain himself by making other people angry. To bait people into arguments.

Once you know he is a troll and that is his game, it is easy to ignore him and laugh at the ridiculousness of posts like this:


what is the meaning of baal anyway?
there's this movie "the rite" where in the end they identify the evil spirit as baal.
is this guy that same worshipper of the prince of darkness?


do you worship the devil too, fool?
what is this forum, a satanist cult?


I'm from egypt motheryar, wasn't born in no golden german cradle.

Now, in truth these are ridiculous enough for one to ignore them if you are aware it may be a sock puppet hiding behind a fake identity so he can cause strife.

In truth, I actually think the guy is pretty funny. I am actually laughing about the posts I just quoted that come from a small sample of deleted texts. But if it gets people angry and calling names, some people can get pretty bent out of shape and upset by him. And that is really all he is trying to do.

Guys like Baal, NextLevel and Suga D already know his games so they figured out that it was him pretty fast. But the last person he fished into an argument was not so happy and did not understand what was going on. Especially for newer members of the forum he can turn this place into a bad experience.

Does that make sense?


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NextLevel
10-12-2016, 11:16 PM
Tylenol,

What you are saying is reasonable but it also shows how stupid you are when it comes to trolls.

Ah, you see how that last sentence gets you? You think that I am saying sense then I sat something that is ridiculous and it gets you going because you think I am serious when I am not and only saying it to get a rise out of you. If you know that I am only trying to annoy you, it is easy to ignore. But if you think I am serious, then you insult me back and it is me just poking you and you just getting angrier as I mix serious stuff with stupid stuff just to make you angry.

Tryzerlol
10-12-2016, 11:36 PM
The only thing that get's me going here is your auto correct to be honest :D

I can see how it annoys people, especially considering the language barrier in an english speaking forum with members from all over the world. I guess I just don't care as much, or I'm already used to it. Usually the people who troll around don't do it 24/7, and contribute to the community in some kind of constructive way (to remain a part of it and not get removed). If wrongdoing is the only thing he is good at a ban is reasonable though. Did he get one on all of his accounts btw or just the multi-acc/throwaway acc?

ttpshot
10-12-2016, 11:58 PM
I guess there are some difference between production lot and even within that lot especially when the rubber cannot exceed the thickness of 4.0mm so the thickness/hardness/weight of the top sheet varies quite a bit.

I'm all for legalizing booster but not the organic solvent stuff, that can be detected in the racket control. I played in the era when high school students were literally soaking their sponge in toluene. Don't want that.

UpSideDownCarl
10-13-2016, 01:22 AM
Did he get one on all of his accounts btw or just the multi-acc/throwaway acc?

All accounts. But he will be back with a new disguise soon enough.

I noticed how he innocently said:


I haven't posted in this forum for a long time and I was getting used to it.
I have nothing to do with tikitiki, but I must say his posts are quite entertaining.
So please don't try to blame every negative thing in the forum on me.

When he does this regularly. Maybe next time he will come from Compton since he likes pretending he is a ghetto gang member.


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Xylit
10-13-2016, 07:26 AM
On topic:
European championships begin in a few days. Looking forward to seeing Ovtcharov playing there. Wonder if he sticks to his chinese rubber and running the risk of losing his title.

AgavE
10-20-2016, 07:26 PM
Hey hey!!! Dima still reverse racket for smash hits!
for me in means that he still using Hurricane at his FH.
PS: He playing much better now!

izra
10-20-2016, 07:44 PM
still not completely adjusted but much better than when we last saw him. looks like the switch will pay off.

AgavE
10-20-2016, 07:47 PM
he has all chances to play in final step.

teddie
10-20-2016, 07:53 PM
Switches for smash doesn't mean he's still with hurricane. If you check some matches some time ago when he was using both tenergy - sometimes he was switching also (not in all tournaments).

AgavE
10-20-2016, 08:20 PM
Switches for smash doesn't mean he's still with hurricane. If you check some matches some time ago when he was using both tenergy - sometimes he was switching also (not in all tournaments).

can you show it?

Tryzerlol
10-21-2016, 11:40 AM
Switches for smash doesn't mean he's still with hurricane. If you check some matches some time ago when he was using both tenergy - sometimes he was switching also (not in all tournaments).

What's the point in switching if you're using the same rubber on both sides? ;o

fais
10-21-2016, 12:54 PM
What's the point in switching if you're using the same rubber on both sides? ;o

Does rubber hardness play a factor if the two rubbers are identical?

Lucas Nascimento
10-21-2016, 01:04 PM
Does rubber hardness play a factor if the two rubbers are identical?

I believe it indeed does! Softer rubber gives more dwell time, and so more spin, as a harder rubber gives more "punch" speed at smashes... At least I think so :D

AgavE
10-21-2016, 01:30 PM
I believe it indeed does! Softer rubber gives more dwell time, and so more spin, as a harder rubber gives more "punch" speed at smashes... At least I think so :D
identical rubbers means identical hardness ;-)
you can't say simply - soft rubbers means more spin and hard rubbers means more speed - that's incorrect because you forget about blade.
Only with hard or stiff, soft or flexible blade ball can have more speed or more spin.
For example Hurricane 3 with hinoki OFF++++++ blade - very very slow rubber, and Hurricane 3+with stiga clipper OFF - very fast.

Lucas Nascimento
10-21-2016, 01:54 PM
identical rubbers means identical hardness ;-)
you can't say simply - soft rubbers means more spin and hard rubbers means more speed - that's incorrect because you forget about blade.
Only with hard or stiff, soft or flexible blade ball can have more speed or more spin.
For example Hurricane 3 with hinoki OFF++++++ blade - very very slow rubber, and Hurricane 3+with stiga clipper OFF - very fast.

Taking your point in account, I also agree with that. In fact, your considerations was way wider than mine...

Th only think I thought about the "same-rubber-different-hardness" thing is that @fais was reffering to same model of rubber, not exactly two identical rubbers lol

AgavE
10-21-2016, 02:11 PM
Taking your point in account, I also agree with that. In fact, your considerations was way wider than mine...

Th only think I thought about the "same-rubber-different-hardness" thing is that @fais was reffering to same model of rubber, not exactly two identical rubbers lol
Oh, in that case - of course...
but, in topic - i really doubt that Dima reversing hist racket to hit by tenergy 05, IF HE HAS for example tenergy 64 on FH. why?
reversing of racket needs to not hit by sticky rubber because of unpredictability those rubbers.

Tryzerlol
10-21-2016, 03:25 PM
Does rubber hardness play a factor if the two rubbers are identical?

As others mentioned, it's a contradictory statement. However, with that being said, it's very unrealistic for two rubbers to be identical. If you're gonna go into your local store and pick out two of the same rubber model, chances are very slim for them to be identical. There is always going to be a slight deviation in terms of weight. Hence professionals select their rubbers, to have a similar performance every single time ;)

I've done something similar when I switched from MX-P to EL-S, I told the storeowner to select the two heaviest sheets of EL-S he could find (generally speaking, heavier = harder). I ended up being quite unlucky and couldn't get two equally heavy ones, so I just put the heavier one (coincidentially, it was the black one) on my forehand. In my case, the difference is somewhere around 2 grams for an UNCUT rubber in full packaging. Do I notice a difference between FH and BH hardness? No lol... but I'm satisfied with a placebo effect, knowing that my rubbers surely can't be too mushy - I selected them after all ... :D

teddie
10-21-2016, 05:19 PM
Tryzerlol is right. Check some latest posts in Timo Boll's facebook where he posted his rubbers before this european champs. People asked in comments what's that written on the sponges, he said he wrote weights, so that lighter (softer) goes for BH, and heavier (harder) goes to FH. So tenergy05 on both sides doesn't mean they're identical. Some time ago someone also posted in these forums from Samsonov that his FH MX-P is harder than BH.

AgavE
10-21-2016, 05:34 PM
Guys, although two rubbers are not identical because of the weight difference, still no necessity to reversing racket to hit the ball flat. That's i talking back to the topic ;-)
PS: but pssst... if you're take two rubbers for example tenergy 05 with SAME WEIGHT. Red one will be softer than black. Surprisingly!??

edgy
10-21-2016, 05:41 PM
Guys, although two rubbers are not identical because of the weight difference, still no necessity to reversing racket to hit the ball flat. That's i talking back to the topic ;-)
PS: but pssst... if you're take two rubbers for example tenergy 05 with SAME WEIGHT. Red one will be softer than black. Surprisingly!??

That's really up for guys like Timo Boll and Ovtcharov and other players to decide for themselves. People will do what works best for them, regardless of what others think is or isn't "necessary".

NextLevel
10-21-2016, 06:14 PM
that's really up for guys like timo boll and ovtcharov and other players to decide for themselves. People will do what works best for them, regardless of what others think is or isn't "necessary".

amen!

AgavE
10-21-2016, 06:31 PM
That's really up for guys like Timo Boll and Ovtcharov and other players to decide for themselves. People will do what works best for them, regardless of what others think is or isn't "necessary".
That's looks like sarcasm? no?

NextLevel
10-21-2016, 06:59 PM
That's looks like sarcasm? no?

No - it's actually pointing out that we can only speculate what Dima is thinking until he tells us what he think. I remember him saying that he was using a paddle optimized to play defenders for a certain match - either that or that the setup was broken so he had to use his regular setup... how do you know that kind of thing unless he says it?

AgavE
10-21-2016, 07:32 PM
No - it's actually pointing out that we can only speculate what Dima is thinking until he tells us what he think. I remember him saying that he was using a paddle optimized to play defenders for a certain match - either that or that the setup was broken so he had to use his regular setup... how do you know that kind of thing unless he says it?
How do you imagine that? FZD says... "really, guys, i play viscaria with stiga handle" ???
And with Dima - imho he would never say that he playing not donic equip.

NextLevel
10-21-2016, 08:53 PM
How do you imagine that? FZD says... "really, guys, i play viscaria with stiga handle" ???
And with Dima - imho he would never say that he playing not donic equip.

In other words, you are talking about what you can visibly verify vs. what the intention of the player is. Maybe there is a distinction somewhere in there that lets both of us be reasonably right if you look for it.

AgavE
10-22-2016, 11:29 AM
I try to found the truth. that's all.

fais
10-22-2016, 02:20 PM
I respect Dima trying new things. Not being concerned about his current standing, rather taking a hit if necessary for the purpose of improving. Whether he sticks with the DHS or not, I admire that he is willing to step outside of his comfort zone and take drastic measures not just to improve, but to learn and grow.

I strongly disagree with people criticizing his decision to try something new on the ground that he will falter as a player and his ratings will drop. To me, this is the mindset of someone who treats TT like a means to pay bills, not someone who pushes himself to improve #nevergoodenough #backtothedrawingboard

TTFrenzy
10-22-2016, 04:48 PM
I respect Dima trying new things. Not being concerned about his current standing, rather taking a hit if necessary for the purpose of improving. Whether he sticks with the DHS or not, I admire that he is willing to step outside of his comfort zone and take drastic measures not just to improve, but to learn and grow.

I strongly disagree with people criticizing his decision to try something new on the ground that he will falter as a player and his ratings will drop. To me, this is the mindset of someone who treats TT like a means to pay bills, not someone who pushes himself to improve #nevergoodenough #backtothedrawingboard

Seems like internet users know better than a pro himself what's good for him :cool::cool: . The only people who can criticize with strong foundation what is going wrong (if something is going wrong) are the teammates that know him very well and his coaches . And the CNT probably since they study him so much.

All these theories are useless because people somehow forget that dima is a very meticulous player and constantly tries to find solutions just like ma long and when things dont go his way he gets really dissappointed and finds it difficult to adjust.

For me he played a really good game with dyjas but the ball really kept coming back (sometimes harder than expected), dyjas's performance was astonishing

ajtatosmano2
10-22-2016, 06:23 PM
I'm sure that Dima tested the Hurricane a lot in training before he finally switched from Tenergy. IMHO, in his match against Jakub, he played from technique and instinct and didn't care about strategy. (Un)fortunately Jakub improved a lot, played extremely aggressive. Dima's FH became very powerful, nothing wrong with the Hurricane and now he loops with maximum confidence.

Lucas Nascimento
10-22-2016, 11:45 PM
I'm sure that Dima tested the Hurricane a lot in training before he finally switched from Tenergy. IMHO, in his match against Jakub, he played from technique and instinct and didn't care about strategy. (Un)fortunately Jakub improved a lot, played extremely aggressive. Dima's FH became very powerful, nothing wrong with the Hurricane and now he loops with maximum confidence.

Totally agree with this! Actually, this was an insane match! Both of them played really well, but Jakub could be a lil' bit more agressive and accurate, specially in his backhand strokes and blocks.

NextLevel
10-22-2016, 11:59 PM
Dyjas could win the whole thing - maybe that will open everyone's eyes. The Hurricane is not the problem - it has improved Diman's forehand push a lot.

Baal
10-23-2016, 02:47 AM
This may be Dyjas' brealthough. Dima did not play badly. And his forehand looked good.

AgavE
10-23-2016, 12:01 PM
Maybe it's just a bad day for Dima, just bad luck.
Of course Dyjas play good!

bobpuls
10-23-2016, 02:12 PM
it looks dima is back with tenergy .... to many flat hits ..... and not such powerful topspin ...