Killing spin

This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Apr 2016
40
6
79
Is it true that players can kill the spin that has been imparted on the ball? If it is how would you kill underspin? Would it be with a topspin or a flat hit?
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,820
13,210
30,387
Read 27 reviews
You kill spin with your impact.

There are many things that contribute to the impact. It is kinda complicated, but simple too. There is dwell time and what you do affects the outcome for spin. How loose or tight you hold the bat and how the grip pressure changes, and also how the bat movement changes affects the ball. Every incoming ball is different.

In general, a soft hand at impact kills spin, but you also may kill more with a small movement during impact.

Vs a heavy incoming slow topspin, you cover the ball with a real loose grip and allow ball to move bat back or use a loose lower arm to move it back a tiny bit at and during impact. You are giving back a knuckle ball

Vs a heavy incoming underspin, loose wrist, allow bat to go a bit back and up at impact. That will kill spin and give back a soft ball.

You can also go through the underspin ball with a loose grip forward and up with a short stroke, and a fake follow through stroke.

Raw beginners are great at making these kind of kill the spin balls, they try to make a spin shot and have poor grip and accelleration that they are pretty much just killing spin and giving back a bit of pace.
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
May 2016
322
223
548
Going out there to play for yourself is probably the best way to find out things like this.

Or he could ask for help from people who know how and cut down on the useless time wasting!?

For the question at hand, I always thought that was more rubber dependent. Such as certain medium pips will return 'dead' balls, if you're after that style. Going from short to long pips, through that spectrum of all in between, you'll see light top - dead balls - spin reversal.

I'm not sure if you mean equipment based, or a certain technique for inverted that kills spin?
 
says what [IMG]
Or he could ask for help from people who know how and cut down on the useless time wasting!?

For the question at hand, I always thought that was more rubber dependent. Such as certain medium pips will return 'dead' balls, if you're after that style. Going from short to long pips, through that spectrum of all in between, you'll see light top - dead balls - spin reversal.

I'm not sure if you mean equipment based, or a certain technique for inverted that kills spin?
Well, for some context, I don't think OP actually plays. I'm under the impression that he's only watched the sport. Not sure if he's said so himself.

If that's so, then maybe he'd want to try it out himself. My apologies if I'm wrong and OP has actually played a lot.

Der's post is great, but to someone who hasn't played much, it's a bit like teaching a blind person about colors, isn't it?
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,820
13,210
30,387
Read 27 reviews
LP, certain material makes it easier to kill spin (and harder to create heavy spin( (but easy to continue spin)

The comments I made were for "normal" inverted rubbers.

I oversimplified it to easy to understand terms, but there is a lot going on at impact that can be manipulated.

One has to have a good read of the ball.

The "Kill the Spin" block and no-spin push (from a medium heavy push) are excellent variations to create errors or chances to take over on offense.

Many older players thrive on the ability to kill spin or give much less than it appears. Many ways to go about it and hand pressure is an invisible force.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,820
13,210
30,387
Read 27 reviews
Well, for some context, I don't think OP actually plays. I'm under the impression that he's only watched the sport. Not sure if he's said so himself.

If that's so, then maybe he'd want to try it out himself. My apologies if I'm wrong and OP has actually played a lot.

Der's post is great, but to someone who hasn't played much, it's a bit like teaching a blind person about colors, isn't it?

Pretty much what I explained about killing spin are principles of a great thing in TT called "Touch" and it never hurts to learn the fundamentals of touch early, even if you cannot execute them to a high standard right away.

So many things hinge upon seeing the ball properly (spin, pace, depth, placement, height), being in position on time on balance, being ready to decide what to do, and executing the effective stroke on time in strike zone.

That is a whole heap of a lot to get right without worrying how to manipulate your touch factors during the impact, but one will take a long time to learn for oneself if he or she never heard HOW it is done or what factors affect the ball in what way.

Even really advanced amature players who are top 1-2 percent of all amatures fail at seeing such a ball coming or how the player produced such a ball. That is why Rich Dewitt rules the 2200ish class like a boss vs so many players for so many years. he knows how to change the spin and placement and pace and location in a way that just seems invisible to the opponent who is suddenly discovering the ball is different and is now off time, out of position, out of zone and Shyt outta luck.
 
says what [IMG]
Pretty much what I explained about killing spin are principles of a great thing in TT called "Touch" and it never hurts to learn the fundamentals of touch early, even if you cannot execute them to a high standard right away.

So many things hinge upon seeing the ball properly (spin, pace, depth, placement, height), being in position on time on balance, being ready to decide what to do, and executing the effective stroke on time in strike zone.

That is a whole heap of a lot to get right without worrying how to manipulate your touch factors during the impact, but one will take a long time to learn for oneself if he or she never heard HOW it is done or what factors affect the ball in what way.

Even really advanced amature players who are top 1-2 percent of all amatures fail at seeing such a ball coming or how the player produced such a ball. That is why Rich Dewitt rules the 2200ish class like a boss vs so many players for so many years. he knows how to change the spin and placement and pace and location in a way that just seems invisible to the opponent who is suddenly discovering the ball is different and is now off time, out of position, out of zone and Shyt outta luck.

I guess if you want to get better, then it's best to understand what's going on sooner than later. Can't get anywhere if you don't know where it is you're going: it's just hit and miss.

You and me both know the dangers of over theorizing, though. My post wasn't trying to make people not reply to OP and OP not ask, but I'm just reminding him that a lot of stuff is gonna make a lot more sense if you try it. It might not make any sense if you don't, right?
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
May 2016
322
223
548
LP, certain material makes it easier to kill spin (and harder to create heavy spin( (but easy to continue spin)

The comments I made were for "normal" inverted rubbers.

I oversimplified it to easy to understand terms, but there is a lot going on at impact that can be manipulated.

One has to have a good read of the ball.

The "Kill the Spin" block and no-spin push (from a medium heavy push) are excellent variations to create errors or chances to take over on offense.

Many older players thrive on the ability to kill spin or give much less than it appears. Many ways to go about it and hand pressure is an invisible force.

So for the most part, killing spin with inverted also entails killing the speed? Soft blocks and pull back blocks all serve to reduce the spin, but also the speed from what I know. Whereas something like a short/medium pip, you could smash a top spin ball and remove spin while adding speed. I imagine you could do the same with inverted, though not as effectively or routinely.
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,820
13,210
30,387
Read 27 reviews
You can kill spin and add speed with inverted if you do everything right. It is easier to do that with pips, but you still have read the ball and be there and know what to do and you still have to have touch, it doesn't magically send stuff back dead.

Playing a soft bock kills pace, that is also an important variation if you have an aggressive mid-distance looper trying to launch at you. Even if your block is long, if it is much shorter than it looks, the hotshot looper will be reaching like a mudda fudda just to get to the ball.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
Archo is actually making a very valid point. Waldner101 has stated that he does not play and only watches. I don't know if that is 100% true or not. But I would hope Waldner101 at least tries to play a little.

If you didn't, it will be fun and worth it for you to try. Your level shouldn't matter. In he scope of things, I suck. But I love playing this game. And it is amazing how playing helps you understand certain things you never would realize. Because you really do have to use your brain a lot when you play.

Now, Der gave a lot of good information on some technical details on killing spin. I'm going to give something simple:

If your contact is totally flat, your racket is at the correct angle for the spin on the particular ball that is coming at you and your impact has enough force behind it, you can kill the spin on the ball.

What I just described is called a smash. In table tennis, the reason this technique is not used too often is because there just isn't enough consistency in the shot. The shot will be pretty fast. Fast enough to need an arc from topspin to land consistently. But if you've really killed the spin and not added any of your own, there won't be enough spin to give the ball an arc. So you have to have the angle of the racket just right so the ball is directed towards the table.

Where this shot becomes more consistent is when the ball is a foot higher than the net or higher. Otherwise it is very hard to land the ball on the table consistently.

This is also why, taking advantage of the opponent's spin with dwell time, brush contact and rapid acceleration to take the opponent's spin and use it to create your own, is much more of a standard aspect of higher level table tennis technique like looping, than simply killing spin as in a smash.

However, the stuff that Der was talking about, which I would actually call deadening the spin, is also part of high level technique. I just would call those issues of touch deadening spin where I would call impact that stops the spin as a result of brute force on impact "Killing the Spin."

Hope this helps broaden the perspective because Der really covered all the rest of the territory.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
You can kill spin and add speed with inverted if you do everything right. It is easier to do that with pips, but you still have read the ball and be there and know what to do and you still have to have touch, it doesn't magically send stuff back dead.

I've got a couple of older gents to introduce you to who are in the 1400-1600 range who play with smooth rubbers and slap like they've got pips on them. It is very common for a looper to walk up after the first good slap to see their rubbers because the effect is so much like pips. I'm confident, in a certain sense they have no idea what they are doing. But they know it works. And they are doing the slapadelic. [emoji2]



Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,820
13,210
30,387
Read 27 reviews
Korean Old-School J-Penners are notorious Slappers, they can really slap the piss outta the ball and make it cry UNCLE !!!

KJH in his vids often talks about how to overcome spin with impact - a matter of firming up the grip pressure right at impact and making real fast bat speed at and during contact.
 
says Spin and more spin.
says Spin and more spin.
Well-Known Member
Super Moderator
Dec 2010
16,146
17,685
54,747
Read 11 reviews
Korean Old-School J-Penners are notorious Slappers, they can really slap the piss outta the ball and make it cry UNCLE !!!

KJH in his vids often talks about how to overcome spin with impact - a matter of firming up the grip pressure right at impact and making real fast bat speed at and during contact.

OSPH and 42&BP are pretty good at it too. Hahaha.


Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy
 
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Well-Known Member
Oct 2014
12,272
17,728
44,267
Read 17 reviews
Killing spin is pretty ambiguous to me. It usually means taking a spinny ball and returning a less spinny ball or a knuckle ball. It can be done mostly by adjusting the racket angle to match the incoming spin and playing a flat stroke with possibly a mild component that continues the incoming spin if you are using inverted (chop block and hit down lightly on topspin, flat hit slightly upwards on backspin). When the spin is really heavy, it rarely produces a true knuckle ball but just produces something that is not the usual topspin ball and which gives people who are not used to playing against and reading it fits. A good punch blocks can be a viable candidate as are certain kinds of beginner pushes which are sometimes used deceptively at a high level.

Because of the racket angle adjustments required, it is hard to do consistently with really spinny or grippy inverted while rallying consistently and is easier to do with worn inverted or pips.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
This user has no status.
This user has no status.
Member
Apr 2016
40
6
79
Yeah I don't that that often but watch a lot of table tennis. Would offensive players be using this tactic against choppers? I don't really see when a offensive player would use against an other offensive player.
 
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,931
10,356
Read 8 reviews
Good penholders are often really good at varying spin when they block especially on their BH side. Often they add varying amounts of sidespin. You have to pay attention or you will misjudge. Ma Lin in his day was a master of that. Some of it also is timing, how early you take ball off the bounce. Mostly this is a BH technique, especially for shakehand players. High level players almost always attack with the FH.

Against defenders they sometimes push short after looping to draw the defender close in and to kind of "reset" the point. Then they are more or less killing spin.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: OldschoolPenholder
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
says ok, I will go back and make sure you have access. Be...
Well-Known Member
Nov 2010
3,568
5,931
10,356
Read 8 reviews
Grip is interesting. You can do it either way. A coach here has been teaching me a serve return technique in which you hold loose until just an instant prior to contact, and then you tighten a bit. But only for return of short serves to FH, and indeed it is a spin killing technique.
 
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
Well-Known Member
Sep 2011
12,820
13,210
30,387
Read 27 reviews
Spin killing doesn't necessarily mean producing a no spin ball. It is more about greatly reducing the spin. Changing the spin is CONTINUING the spin or both.

Several ways exist on how to do it.

Killing spin (and sometimes tempo) is a useful variation to have in your toolbox.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 
Top