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Eli Baraty
11-17-2016, 12:56 AM
One of England’s best young table tennis coaches says so, and believes that he has the recipe for success

Every time I tell people that I'm a table tennis coach and former top player their response is invariably this: "The Chinese are the best. Can you beat the Chinese?"
I started playing table tennis in the 1990s and was fortunate to witness three Europeans win the men’s world singles title (Swedes Jorgen Persson in 1991 and Jan-Ove Waldner in 1997 and Frenchman Jean- Philippe Gatien in 1993) as well as an Olympic singles title (Waldner in 1992). I also saw Sweden become the last nation to beat China in the men’s team event at the 2000 World Championships!
I dreamed of becoming a world champion myself but that was too far fetched, having only started playing the game when I was 14 years old. So I turned to coaching. Now, with 16 years of coaching experience behind me, I have produced countless national team, doubles, male and female singles title winners. But my ultimate goal is far greater than national success. My vision is fixed on defeating China.
I previously played in Germany, France and Belgium and saw the best table tennis set-ups in Europe. I believe they all lack the full infrastructure needed to develop Olympic and world champions. There are various full time centres but they are not structured in a way that allows players to develop their game throughout their career, especially beyond the age of 18.
Even in those with a structured system there seems to be lack of innovation, passion and most importantly motivation. They have a defeatist attitude: "China are too good, so what's the point?!"
Where’s the gap?I currently run a table tennis academy in Harefield in the London borough of Hillingdon which caters for students aged 11-19 (it also has on-site boarding allowing players from all over the world to stay there while they study and train). Here they receive regular table tennis training alongside their education. But we also need top-level coaches from the grass roots level who can develop players from the age of five through to 10. They are then technically well developed and can build onwards from these solid foundations.
Only then should they be passed on to a full time set up such as The Harefield Academy, which has a full-time coaching team including myself. Here, they are able to train regularly before, during (in PE lessons and during classes on subjects that they are not taking further) and after school. They get personal attention on either a one-to-one basis or in a small group of up to four players. After school, they can then join a larger group comprising the whole table tennis squad, for a few hours. This is where teamwork, ethics and personal development are encouraged and a variation of styles is integrated into the coaching.
It’s an effective set-up but what happens before kids join the Academy and after they leave? This is where my attentions are now focused. I am collaborating with The Harefield Academy to try and establish a dedicated table tennis centre of excellence within the school grounds. While we are still in the early planning stages, this is an exciting opportunity. The centre would host local, national and international players and cater for national and international training camps and European matches. Such a facility would provide a clear pathway for young aspiring players, fulfill their needs from a young age and crucially allow them to continue their development even after they leave school.
The here and nowCurrently in England we have many exceptionally talented players who dream of pursuing a career in table tennis. Sadly, they either quit before the age of 18 or at the end of their junior years. In some cases they leave home to chase their dreams elsewhere, heading to the likes of Germany, France, Poland etc. Why should this talent have to go abroad? Clearly I believe they shouldn't.
image: http://cdn.talksport.com/sport-mag/475/TT_3.jpg
http://cdn.talksport.com/sport-mag/475/TT_3.jpgEngland's table tennis team have actually performed exceptionally well over the past two years, resulting in three men now being ranked inside the world’s top 100. They also finished third at the 2016 World Team Championships and reached the quarter-finals at the 2016 Olympics, losing out to China.
All three players in the England team left the country in their teens, in search of a higher level of training and a more financially rewarding table tennis system. It’s a sad indictment on a country that not only invented table tennis but has also had three World Champions: Fred Perry (1929), Richard Bergmann (1939, 1948, 1950) and Johnny Leach (1949, 1951). Indeed, throughout those years the World Championships were often held at Wembley with tens of thousands spectators flocking to watch.
Back on trendAway from the competitive side of things, the sport is actually thriving in England. With tables popping up in more and more public spaces and bars being themed around the sport, table tennis has become trendy. It is also being celebrated for its long-term health benefits, with the increased blood flow to the brain while playing said to help conditions like Alzheimers.
All we need now is a structured system to not only keep our players on home soil but also help them to compete with the absolute best. My vision is to create a bulletproof infrastructure by raising the funds to build a centre that will provide a complete pathway for the table tennis players of tomorrow.
Despite being a coach with limited resources and access to only a small window of a player’s career, I have been able to produce many of today's top England players. I believe that with a good team and infrastructure in place, China can be beaten and England can be crowned world champions once again. I'm looking for help, not only to make my vision come true, but also to make table tennis great again, inspire our youth and give them the best possible chance of becoming the world’s best.
If you’re interested in helping to make table tennis great again, get in touch: @EliBaraty (https://twitter.com/elibaraty?lang=en) Head coach, Harefield Table Tennis Academy @THA_School (https://twitter.com/tha_school)
image: http://cdn.talksport.com/sport-mag/475/TT_1.jpg
http://cdn.talksport.com/sport-mag/475/TT_1.jpg


ELI BARATY | @EliBaraty (https://twitter.com/EliBaraty)




Read more at http://sport-magazine.co.uk/features/can-chinas-table-tennis-team-be-beaten#pUpVqxCt0M6h1ldq.99

Baal
11-17-2016, 02:01 AM
No.

But I hope I am wrong. And the only way I will be wrong is due to stuff that Eli Baraty is doing.

There is a thriving new club in my city now, with great playing conditions and hordes of very young children getting trained by former Chinese provincial level coaches, former US national champion (Timothy Wang), and several former Chinese provincial team players, and even the first Wang Hao -- a Chinese national team member from the late 80s. (Some of you may remember him, he is a modern defender, not the penholder from the mid 2000s. Here in the US he goes by Eddie. Fantastic friendly guy, awesome with kids. I hit some balls with him last weekend). There is a 14 year old boy at our club who is right around 2500. His younger brother will probably be better in the fullness of time. And some other really talented kids.

They will be very good junior players.

And then they will go to the university and become doctors or engineers or something. I honestly don't know what the solution is to that, or really, if there even should be one.

Broken
11-17-2016, 12:41 PM
I think it is possible, but it would need a serious commitment. There's a Swedish documentary on Youtube about the approach Sweden had to beat the Chinese, as far as I know it is only in Swedish though. Really good documentary.

It being possible comes with quite a few ifs though.

First I think you need a country where table tennis is popular enough that you can get several talented players going at the same time. I think this is the biggest problem, good players need quality practice and sparring partners. Somebody from Sweden, either a player or a coach, suggested that what we need is cooperation in Europe so that the really good players can start to compete and train together at an early age, so it would be essentially Europe against China, not a single country.

You also need a long time plan. Sweden started the project to beat China in the early eighties. First you need enough players so that you can get enough talent to work with, then you also need the coaches and all other structure in place once you do develop your talent.

I think today most countries either don't have the talented players and those that do doesn't have the infrastructure in place. Mean while China has everything in place and they also have as many active players as all of Europe or more...

Suga D
11-17-2016, 12:53 PM
Right on, Eli.
[Emoji106]
Even though I must agree with Baal, that keeping those young adulescents around 18 years old will be the biggest challenge, i think.
One of my close friends was in german Junior National Team. He was practicing and playing with guys like Timo Boll, Thomas Keinath, Stefan Feth and a few more good players. But when he turned eighteen/nineteen his focus changed.
Before that he was such an TT-enthusiast, that he had his beloved paddle lying next to his pillow at night.
But then something changed and he wanted to become a doctor or more specific a surgeon.
At first here in Freiburg/Germany but after some time he first went to Stanford, then was one year in Philly and is now back in Stanford.
He still can play on a decent level but unfortunately he didn't expect his tabletennis career to get him anywhere he is now.

So this is one of the key things that need to change, so young people can see a perspective following a tabletennis career and stick to it and keep them in the sport. Creating that infrastructure that young professional/semi-professional players can make a living from TT should be one of the main goals.

On the other hand I believe he has already been saving lives now that he's a surgeon and I'm not sure if he would have been able to do that if he wouldn't had chosen this path. But still...

Creating the right surroundings for developing young players is essential!

So carry on with your good works, trying to uplift the sport to where it belongs.
All the best for you, Eli
[Emoji106]

Garrison
11-17-2016, 01:07 PM
I don't know. I am pretty sure FZD will show a level of tabletennis we have never seen before so the next years will be very tough. atm it would definitely require a Timo Boll- like talented player instead of an overall higher level.

I am always hoping to see a young talent with enough dedication to also bring his body to the maximum. Kristian Karlsson has a very good physique and it is really paying off for him, but if I look at Anton Källberg for example he is very talented but will never match the power of ZJK, ML or FZD. I think this is also the biggest problem for XX, who probably has the best touch in the whole world.

Killerspintt
11-17-2016, 01:12 PM
AS long as China will continue to consistently train players like Wang Liqin, Ma Lin, Wang Hao, Ma Long, Zhang Jike, Xu Xin, Fan Zhendong......no they won't be beaten in any team event, unless the head coach in CNT made huge mistakes by selecting the wrong players (like it was the case in 2000, Liu Guoliang, even if World Champion 99, shouldn't have been the number one player, Wang Liqin and Ma Ling should have been already included in the roster, I believe China wouldn't have lost in 2000 with a team composed of Kong Linghui, Wang Liquin and Ma Lin, even if Jürgen Person played godlike during the final).

anchorschmidt
11-17-2016, 01:19 PM
I think getting more people involved in recreational table tennis would benefit the health of the sport just as much, if not more.

It's unfair to the children to give them hope when even just 5% of the top category can succeed at the highest level. It's better to have a healthier infrastructure so that we can support the B team and province players (like in China). As a coach, I would feel very uneasy about encouraging even an extremely talented child to try for international success, knowing that only a small percentage make it.

If you read Timo Boll's book, it becomes clear that you need a lot of resources to create a player like that. In his case, an entire club moved to his village just so that he could train full time. That means that the top regional players completely shifted their residence somewhere else, just so that Timo could train at a very young age.

I'm currently coaching a group of beginners at my University. Instead of just supervising them, I'm trying to teach them technique in a fun manner :). You should have seen their faces when they tried to block a topspin for the first time :D. I think showing new people what table tennis actually is awakes their interest and perhaps a few might join a club after my course.

Broken
11-17-2016, 01:23 PM
I don't know. I am pretty sure FZD will show a level of tabletennis we have never seen before so the next years will be very tough. atm it would definitely require a Timo Boll- like talented player instead of an overall higher level.

I am always hoping to see a young talent with enough dedication to also bring his body to the maximum. Kristian Karlsson has a very good physique and it is really paying off for him, but if I look at Anton Källberg for example he is very talented but will never match the power of ZJK, ML or FZD. I think this is also the biggest problem for XX, who probably has the best touch in the whole world.
I think the problem here is that one talented player in a region/country is not enough.

Look at the Chinese mens team, the competition there is so high. It was the same thing for the Swedish team when they where good. Erik Lindh didn't get to play the WC final in 89. He was ranked 5th or 6th in the world at the moment, but at the day of the final Waldner, Persson and Appelgren were considered in better shape. You need a team like that, where you have internal competition for each position on the team.

It's the same with talent, you need competition or you stagnate and stop improving. It's really hard to even gauge if you are improving unless you have something to measure it against.

Broken
11-17-2016, 01:29 PM
I think getting more people involved in recreational table tennis would benefit the health of the sport just as much, if not more.

It's unfair to the children to give them hope when even just 5% of the top category can succeed at the highest level. It's better to have a healthier infrastructure so that we can support the B team and province players (like in China). As a coach, I would feel very uneasy about encouraging even an extremely talented child to try for international success, knowing that only a small percentage make it.

If you read Timo Boll's book, it becomes clear that you need a lot of resources to create a player like that. In his case, an entire club moved to his village just so that he could train full time. That means that the top regional players completely shifted their residence somewhere else, just so that Timo could train at a very young age.

I'm currently coaching a group of beginners at my University. Instead of just supervising them, I'm trying to teach them technique in a fun manner :). You should have seen their faces when they tried to block a topspin for the first time :D. I think showing new people what table tennis actually is awakes their interest and perhaps a few might join a club after my course.
You are absolutely correct. That's where you have to start. That's actually what started it in Sweden back in the day as well, people started playing it for fun.

Football and Ice Hockey is more popular in Sweden, but table tennis is slowly coming back due to exactly what you describe.

By the way, the way you describe teaching table tennis sounds perfect, keep up the good work!

Baal
11-17-2016, 01:34 PM
Suga, you live in Freiburg? I have played there a couple of times. One of my favorite places. Great university.

leatherback01
11-17-2016, 01:35 PM
I truly believe that it isn't purely about infrastructure or talent pools or even keeping the kids at the age of 18...although they all play a factor.....right now we use Chinese coaches and leagues and training facilities to learn from the best...which leads to very good foundations....however we can't just repeat China's style and expect to win...they have several great advantages.

1. The sheer amount of people willing to play.....even if you got every person in my entire country (Canada) to want to play pro table tennis you couldn't compete with the numbers. And then everyone of those players has the regional, provincial and national coaching that we all want already ingrained into their system.

2. Chinese coaches and high level players exported are great...they have a wealth of experience and we can learn lots from them....however if we think that we are getting Chinese players and coaches that could have bettered their own national team, we are dreaming. We get players that couldn't make it! Their cast offs can coach and teach us the fundamentals just as well as liu guoliang, bit they do not know what it is like to be on the top.

3. They have NO fall back. We always have the ability to go to school and make something of ourselves if we don't make it in table tennis. (Which we won't so we already are preparing). In China the kids are recognized as having talent from a very young age (which we can do as well) then they are put into sports schools (which we can also do but it is a bit rarer) and then the race begins. If they don't make it in table tennis they can't change their minds and go be an engineer there....they will end up in basic poverty for their life.....its a do or die thing.


I believe there is a way to beat China. Sweden did it. Michael Maze did it (for one tournament), and the very odd European player has a good run against them by doing it.

It's called being original.

Sweden came out with a style designed to defeat the fast attackers. It was take a step back and let the ball slow down a and counter loop. When China realized this was winning they did what they always do and imitated them but they could never defeat the original as they didn't have the players to go back and practice against. Sweden stayed at the top. Being the best at this. Until they decided to let kong linghui decided to go train in Sweden to learn the style....then he went back to China and everyone practiced against him as Sweden began to age and that began the decline.

Michael maze went through almost three top Chinese players in a tournament that were destroying the rest of Europe by LOBBING of all things....they just hadn't seen it and hadn't practiced against it. They clearly went home. Practiced against lobbers until the cows came home and never lost to them again....(this is less of an example then Sweden but I'm leading to my main point...)

First. You need a solid foundation. As solid as the Chinese get. Solid foot work solid shots from both sides of the table etc etc.

Then....you have to stop thinking that you can beat China at their own game. We cannot.

We have to do something they haven't seen. And when stacked with a world class foundation...it becomes a weapon....

For example...(I'm no world class coach...but...). What about a grip change that allows for more angles on shots. What about using a type of rubber that everyone thinks is a disadvantage but you learn to use it in a way that it isn't. What about instead of worrying about counter looping you stay at the table and angle block much to you Chinese coaches dismay! and use your opponents power against him.....

These are just ideas of a ranter....but China will do what China has always done best. They will imitate. They will not originate.

IMHO....China's players now are faster more powerful Waldners with the exception of a few insane freaks.

Let's originate.



Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

Suga D
11-17-2016, 02:32 PM
Suga, you live in Freiburg? I have played there a couple of times. One of my favorite places. Great university.

Oh sorry, i guess I mispelled that, maybe i should rephrase it again. I've been a couple of times in Freiburg. Really a lovely place, but i stay close to Frankfurt.
:)

@everyone: great posts so far. A real good read!
Keep 'em coming.

Raylazyfo
11-17-2016, 11:48 PM
AS long as China will continue to consistently train players like Wang Liqin, Ma Lin, Wang Hao, Ma Long, Zhang Jike, Xu Xin, Fan Zhendong......no they won't be beaten in any team event, unless the head coach in CNT made huge mistakes by selecting the wrong players (like it was the case in 2000, Liu Guoliang, even if World Champion 99, shouldn't have been the number one player, Wang Liqin and Ma Ling should have been already included in the roster, I believe China wouldn't have lost in 2000 with a team composed of Kong Linghui, Wang Liquin and Ma Lin, even if Jürgen Person played godlike during the final).
I would have to disagree I think china made the right choice in 2000 but liu guoliang got unlucky and didn't play well. Wang liqin and ma Lin (especially ma Lin ) were too young and wouldn't have been able to handle the stress

ttpshot
11-18-2016, 02:39 AM
Great article!
Europe needs more dedicated academy like this one.
You do get table tennis geniuses from time to time but it's the development and high performance system that counts the most especialy for sport like table tennis which doesn't have as developed pro tours as Tennis and Golf.

Killerspintt
11-18-2016, 12:06 PM
I would have to disagree I think china made the right choice in 2000 but liu guoliang got unlucky and didn't play well. Wang liqin and ma Lin (especially ma Lin ) were too young and wouldn't have been able to handle the stress

Ma Lin was finalist in 99 wttc, beating Waldner in semis. Wang Liqin is the one who has beaten Jurgen Person in 99 wttc.

Here is a match between Wang Liqin and Liu Guoliang in China Open 2000 :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pcTMd2WY2E
Wang Liqin was already "miles above" Guoliang, and already the best player in the world in fact.

TTHopeful
11-18-2016, 01:09 PM
Impossible, period

Tony's Table Tennis
11-18-2016, 02:46 PM
Everything is possible
Impossible is for the lazy
Possible comes with sacrifices, hardship and will take time.

Its like American in the swimming pool, athletic track or basketball court. American was difficult to beat, but not impossible to beat.

Chinese players are spoiled with resources. I'm talking not just about the coach, or the sparring partner, or the physical trainer, or the team doctor, or team physio, or the analysis team, or the good salary (retirement plan), or the team chef (that travels with them), okay I think i've run out of resources for now.

The winning formula is more than just a coach and a player in this time at age (with any sport).
The problem in TT is most places only have players and coach and thats it (we are a poor sport with poor resources)

Eli got a good plan for the foundation, and that is what is lacking everywhere for sure.
However I see the major problem is what do you do with the top talent at age 13 or age 15 or age 17, what is the next step? and this is the problem I see

It doesn't make sense for parents to 100% support the kid after a certain age if the future is not in TT
In China, TT is a future and families are willing to sacrifice the kids full life to have a small chance of making the national team.
To me, that is the biggest different between China and world TT
skills/talent is just a distance second, this is number 1

Yecats Encerwal
11-18-2016, 02:55 PM
Those who say they can't and those who say they can are both often right.

ajtatosmano2
11-18-2016, 03:02 PM
I totally agree with TonyTT. Kids must concentrate on school, because they need something other than tt to make their living.
And the problem isn't the school, but that they have to decide: enough learning + less training, or less learning + enough training. And that is something what can be helped with proper infrastructure, flexible rules and money.

HairF1
11-18-2016, 03:31 PM
Nope! Not in any time soon.

Tony's Table Tennis
11-18-2016, 04:16 PM
Some facts/history

Chinese coach goes to Belgium (at first treated as a traitor) - result - World Champion over China
Sweden's Greats - dominated China
Austrian surprise - world champion over China
German super start - world cup winner over China
Korean footwork stars - 1998, 2004 Olympic champion over China

Over the pass 20 years, we have seen quite a lot of facts and to me, that could only be a start.

The rule changes, equipment changes etc has made it more challenging for all players.
I think if each of the top 10 countries can have "More" top players, then the result could be really different.
Its doable for sure

Suga D
11-18-2016, 06:14 PM
Impossible, period

Yeah, right..... let's just give up from beginning and play darts. I'm sure that's the right mindset....Not!

Sorry mate, but from someone carrying the name TT-Hopeful i've expected something else... Maybe it's just me, but this doesn't sound hopeful at all!
Where's the hope, mate?
I think Eli's on the right path. He at least tries, instead of giving up from the start.

James Livesey
11-18-2016, 06:27 PM
However, I think table tennis is at a point where it needs to start innovating again. Different grips, different strategies, different blade designs all need to be fully explored. I've read that some clubs are teaching kids V-grip in China, and found a website of a man who is designing a blade that can quickly and easily (with some training of course) change between SH and PH...also in China. Both of these may be fruitless, but who knows? Everyone needs to innovate, try and fail. For example, in very recent years we have seen enormous success at the highest level in a very small number of players playing the modern defensive and rpb ph style. both have undergone significant innovation, but are we promoting it in our clubs? not really. Have either of these styles been optimised by equipment, technique and strategy like say, offensive minded SH play? probably not at all. This is the greatest tragedy to me in TT. there are so many different and beautiful ways of playing the game, but we just teach and promote what we know or argue is most optimal.

Also, if i was good enough, I'd come and work for you instantly Eli. but not a chance.

Killerspintt
11-19-2016, 11:59 AM
Why would you say that TT needs "hardware innovations" ? I mean, just watch table tennis in 80's, in 90's, in 2000's......the game is evolving A LOT, far more than most of other sports.

UpSideDownCarl
11-19-2016, 01:00 PM
Those who say they can't and those who say they can are both often right.

No disrespect but I think I read a fortune cookie that said this. :)

NextLevel
11-19-2016, 03:43 PM
No disrespect but I think I read a fortune cookie that said this. :)

His point is a good one - probably just not stated in a tone that fit the mode of the discussion.

NextLevel
11-19-2016, 03:46 PM
However, I think table tennis is at a point where it needs to start innovating again. Different grips, different strategies, different blade designs all need to be fully explored. I've read that some clubs are teaching kids V-grip in China, and found a website of a man who is designing a blade that can quickly and easily (with some training of course) change between SH and PH...also in China. Both of these may be fruitless, but who knows? Everyone needs to innovate, try and fail. For example, in very recent years we have seen enormous success at the highest level in a very small number of players playing the modern defensive and rpb ph style. both have undergone significant innovation, but are we promoting it in our clubs? not really. Have either of these styles been optimised by equipment, technique and strategy like say, offensive minded SH play? probably not at all. This is the greatest tragedy to me in TT. there are so many different and beautiful ways of playing the game, but we just teach and promote what we know or argue is most optimal.

Also, if i was good enough, I'd come and work for you instantly Eli. but not a chance.

IMO, this is a great post, probably because the same thing has been on my mind. I find it very hard to believe that the benefit of the shakehand's racket and grip is anything more than that it is what the experts know how to use and teach. There should be grips and designs that take advantage of aspects of the human physiology better. The problem though is that TT has too little money flowing in it for anyone to make the serious investment other than China or Japan who invest seemingly unreasonable amounts of money into the sport.

UpSideDownCarl
11-19-2016, 04:00 PM
His point is a good one - probably just not stated in a tone that fit the mode of the discussion.

I was just trying to be funny and be a clown.

It is true that other countries or the rest of the TT world in general may or may not catch up to China. It is worth finding a way to get that to happen. But it is true that China is the only country that puts resources into training potential talent from an early age and subsidizes training through those years where children in other countries would have to make a decision: financial security and education or Table Tennis. This is a big factor.

Part of what we would need to see to determine the next 10 years of table tennis is: are there other young and rising TT stars in China after ML and FZD have started to fade?

By the way, I have never see a fortune cookie that said that. But it really does sound like something from a fortune cookie.



Sent from the Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Yecats Encerwal
11-21-2016, 09:04 AM
His point is a good one - probably just not stated in a tone that fit the mode of the discussion.

I didn't realise there was a "tone" to fit to haha :)

I was simply stating a fact, it was more of a reply to people who are saying it is "impossible".

Granted, it is probably something that could be found in a fortune cookie!!

DoctorPaco
11-23-2016, 06:14 AM
I think it's worth pointing out that non of the Chinese players made it to the semis in the Swedish Open, granted, they are the B-Team, but the gap between the top Europeans and the top Chinese (outside the big 4) seems to be getting smaller. Of course, there are other factors, such as inexperience against European opposition, but the signs are looking up.

Didn't Weikert mention a sort of "integrated camp" where the top European talents train and live with the CNT? I think, for now, the best thing the top non-Chinese players should adopt the "If you can't beat em, join em." Mindset (for development) until a proper system I developed.

Also, why don't we send coaches over to China to study the Chinese coaching techniques?

Sent from my MyPhoneMY27 using Tapatalk

Suga D
11-23-2016, 07:11 PM
I think it's worth pointing out that non of the Chinese players made it to the semis in the Swedish Open, granted, they are the B-Team, but the gap between the top Europeans and the top Chinese (outside the big 4) seems to be getting smaller. Of course, there are other factors, such as inexperience against European opposition, but the signs are looking up.

Didn't Weikert mention a sort of "integrated camp" where the top European talents train and live with the CNT? I think, for now, the best thing the top non-Chinese players should adopt the "If you can't beat em, join em." Mindset (for development) until a proper system I developed.

Also, why don't we send coaches over to China to study the Chinese coaching techniques?

Sent from my MyPhoneMY27 using Tapatalk

That's already happening.
According to the website Mytischtennis.de the TTBL club TTF Ochsenhausen [the club Liam Pitchford has been playing for until this season] with their Liebherr's Master College and the CTTSL club Shandong Luneng have decided to cooperate in the near future, by exchanging knowledge, players and coaches.
Here's a Link to the article.

http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/buntes/8715/frischer-wind-gegen-tipps-vom-branchenfuehrer

It's in german though, if requested i can try to translate later on.

Tony's Table Tennis
11-24-2016, 07:42 PM
That's already happening.
According to the website Mytischtennis.de the TTBL club TTF Ochsenhausen and the CTTSL club Shandong Luneng have decided to cooperate in the near future, by exchanging knowledge, players and coaches.
Here's a Link to the article.

http://www.mytischtennis.de/public/buntes/8715/frischer-wind-gegen-tipps-vom-branchenfuehrer

It's in german though, if requested i can try to translate later on.

I shared this "goal" many years back.
As we can see, there is already a few chinese table tennis college in the world
There is pro team and pro team, province & province, city and city.

China is the ultimate"enemy" to beat, but then this enemy is helping you to become stronger :p

I wonder if today Japan is the king, or Korea, or Germany, or Sweden (sweden was the king before), if these countries will do as much as what China is "contributing for free"

UpSideDownCarl
11-24-2016, 08:38 PM
I shared this "goal" many years back.
As we can see, there is already a few chinese table tennis college in the world
There is pro team and pro team, province & province, city and city.

China is the ultimate"enemy" to beat, but then this enemy is helping you to become stronger :p

I wonder if today Japan is the king, or Korea, or Germany, or Sweden (sweden was the king before), if these countries will do as much as what China is "contributing for free"

Yes. China is truly table tennis ambassadors to the world. And they have developed the sport so far beyond anyone else that they can teach the rest of the world and still be ahead.


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CroneOne
11-24-2016, 10:34 PM
Yes. China is truly table tennis ambassadors to the world. And they have developed the sport so far beyond anyone else that they can teach the rest of the world and still be ahead.

Agreed. It seems, and this is just an observation, that the top players in China can make a lot of money and achieve a high status as a sports star.
These are decent motivators for people past 18 along with the love for the game. Can the same be said for other countries? If it takes full time commitment to be a top player and it doesn't pay, why wouldn't you abandon it for a better career? On the business side, the
sports money needs to come from big events, media, spectators etc before the sports star can become a brand.

I wonder how much the top Chinese make money-wise in comparison to top Europeans?

Suga D
11-25-2016, 01:25 AM
I shared this "goal" many years back.
As we can see, there is already a few chinese table tennis college in the world
There is pro team and pro team, province & province, city and city.

China is the ultimate"enemy" to beat, but then this enemy is helping you to become stronger :p

I wonder if today Japan is the king, or Korea, or Germany, or Sweden (sweden was the king before), if these countries will do as much as what China is "contributing for free"

I see your point to a degree, but I think China [the Tabletennis Association] has realized that helping others will also help themselves too, because the lack of competition leads to stagnation, my dear friend.

Also the exchange isn't just for tabletennis. The famous german football (soccer) coach Felix Magath is now coach for Shandong Luneng's Football Team.

The whole article is quite an interesting read.
I haven't made a translation of the whole interview though, since it wasn't requested.
But here are some excerpts that might be interesting:

Mytischtennis.de: China profits from German Football Know-how and Germany profits from China's tabletennis knowledge. Whose idea was this cooperation between the Liebherr Masters College and the CTTSL club Shandong Luneng:

Ochsenhausen's Manager Kristijan Pejinovic: it was our idea after long debates that seeking for help from the leaders in the sports can only be helpful and since one of our coaches Fu Yong who is originally from Jinan which is one of Shandong Luneng's bases and still has good contacts to them and since not many get the chance to look behind the scenery of a chinese club we want to take advantage of this.

Mytischtennis.de: the reasons for the Liebherr's Masters College are quite obvious, but China could do well without you, so what do they hope to benefit from?

Pejinovic: well they're mainly interested at cultural exchange. But we can also be helpful in other areas. See the two top chinese leagues mainly have players from asia and to avoid monotony for the audience they seek for more contacts to european players, because this monotony is becoming problematic more and more and if players like Boll and Ovtcharov are playing in the CTTSL this helps prevent this.
So Shandong Luneng has asked us to send 2 or 3 players to them and they will send 2 or 3 players over here, because they develop so many talented players and there are just a few clubs, it is quite difficult to give more than just a few players regular competitive play. But that's exactly the problem. The chinese season is pretty short so most of them can only practice and lack competitive playing experience. To help these players to progress they need more competitive play. Hence Shandong will send talented players over here, and we'll try to organise that they can sign up with european top clubs. At the moment they feel a bit limited by their Tabletennis Association and we want to help break barriers.

Mytischtennis.de: so what will be your plans?

Pejinovic: we've already sent 3 of our students to China. It was interesting for our players to see how they practice over there and in february we're expecting a larger group from China who will stay 3 to 4 weeks to see how we're working over here and also might even talk about plans for the next season.

Mytischtennis.de: how will Ochsenhausen benefit from this?

Pejinovic: well not in terms of playing for our TTBL Team. At the moment this just doesn't fit our strategy. We're trying to develop the youth and are so far quite satisfied. But you should never say never.

Mytischtennis.de: where is China ahead?

Pejinovic: there are many points. What shall i start with? Europeans have made the same mistakes. No matter if Germany, Sweden or Hungary. After having a 'golden' Generation everyone of them forgot to build up the following generation and lead them to a that level. So the problem is selfmade. At the moment it's hard for coaches to find good jobs. But less good coaches will lead to less good players which will then lead to less media interest. And this might cause sponsors to not extend their sponsorship.
In europe there are so many 'under-construction' zones, and there is plenty to do - which is actually good, but these construction zones need to be spotted to be able to work them out. Do the children over here learn to play tabletennis at school?

Mytischtennis.de: well, i haven't...

Pejinovic: and that is exactly the problem. How shall the kids learn to play if they don't accidentally bump into a club? That's exactly the difference to countries like China. They get in touch with tabletennis from an early age on.
But i'm not expecting to change our society, but i can do what I'm capable of in my area.

(Source: mytischtennis.de )

The last sentence sounds a bit like that car sticker: Think global - act local.

[Emoji12]

Zraxel
11-25-2016, 08:30 PM
We will never know because they have been dominating it for quite some time.

Delusion To Divination
11-26-2016, 02:57 AM
When Zhang Jike represents Qatar at 2020 Tokyo Olympics :D

Tony's Table Tennis
11-26-2016, 06:30 AM
Suga D

It is a 2 way trade for sure, but in many cases the trade is more favour to non Chinese country.
China has been spending a lot of money on other sports for sure.

I disagree with you in a sense that CTTA is doing all this to help themselves, but rather it is more for the objective of showing the world, who is BIG Brother.

You can't explain a trade when the ambassador of China offers the TT association a free coach for the next 3 years, or offer them a scholarship to bring juniors to China for 2 years and asking nothing for return.

In SA, Shan Dong and Western Cape also had a trade of 8 or 9 sporting codes. From what I see, its a fair trade for South AFrican, unfair for the Chinese :p

Tony's Table Tennis
11-26-2016, 06:39 AM
Suga D

I just finish reading again, and thank you for the translation.

My news I got many years back is indeed materializing everywhere. Each body is asked to open up to foreigners.

I think the crucial part as mentioned as the coaches and careers.
In many parts of your "champion division" and 1st division WTTTC level teams, as a player the career perspective is really low.
So as I said before - which sane parents will allow the kid to play TT full time until 30 or 35 years old?
And is there money to coach from 35 to retirement?

In China the national level is really well structures and it will look after the assets
In other parts of the world - you are on your own after you retire as a player

now let me lower the gears a bit, if one has just gotten to National Team (even B team), then one become a head coach in China or abroad.
Or can become a expat and become a merc and travel the world (see how many is in Europe and USA).

Granted, the previous decade of China, many people are poor and sports is the most likely hood to get out of poverty and many parents sacrifice the "only" kid.
Nowadays when people are getting wealthier and your bigger cities like Shanghai, we have seen less kids taken up in sports as a whole (yes, a big number of kids goes to other sports nowadays other than TT, but the overall number is lesser). So again this to me is a sign where parents wants they kids to go the educational route and get a non sports career compared to the previous decades. This is the same as the West isn't it?

vik
12-03-2016, 05:20 PM
I think in near future they can be beatable.after ma long,zhang jike and xuxin retire.Oly Fzd is much better but others are beatable.do you see others?

Takkyu_wa_inochi
12-03-2016, 05:25 PM
Yes they can be beaten. Korea just beat them in semis at Junior Worlds (M)...
and Japan is about to kick their butt in the (F) final...

edit: thats done... 3-0 victory of ITO against SHI to clinch the Junior World Team Title !!!!

Takkyu_wa_inochi
12-03-2016, 05:27 PM
I think in near future they can be beatable.after ma long,zhang jike and xuxin retire.Oly Fzd is much better but others are beatable.do you see others?

I agree this is an exceptional Chinese generation. We take it for granted, but I'm not sure all Chinese will be as strong. FZD will probably be the next Grand Slam winner but apart from him, we don't see anyone (yet)... There is room for players of other countries to win.

Eli Baraty
12-27-2016, 07:24 PM
i saw and know of Ochsenhausen, its an amazing place but i feel they lack true belief (read their website and you'll see they on speak of europe) secondly they do not cater for Female players and thirdly they do not cater for very young player.
but what it currently is (its a dream for any aspiring tt player

Raylazyfo
12-27-2016, 07:35 PM
Yes they can be beaten. Korea just beat them in semis at Junior Worlds (M)...
and Japan is about to kick their butt in the (F) final...

edit: thats done... 3-0 victory of ITO against SHI to clinch the Junior World Team Title !!!!

Sorry to burst your bubble but I think the chinese dont really send their best juniors to other countries

yuri.saldon
12-28-2016, 01:34 AM
I don't think China will be beaten so soon. If you watch Chinese super league you saw the non Chinese players inferiority, they lose a lot more than win.

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Takkyu_wa_inochi
12-28-2016, 01:53 AM
Sorry to burst your bubble but I think the chinese dont really send their best juniors to other countries

so what ? a few years ago it was enough to beat other nations, now its not.
Harimoto is clearly a phenomenon, one can have the biggest expectations for him.

The Japanese players are still young. Miu HIRANO is losing to many Chinese players in the Chinese league but she is playing with them every week now. I think she is talented and can catch up in time. its not too late for her. Other Japanese players should follow her example.

Japan and Korea are closing the gap. Other nations are clearly lagging.

vik
12-28-2016, 11:53 AM
Harimoto is Japanese like Li Ping is Qatarian.His real name s Zhang Ji he.He was forced to change his name to play for Japan?Could you explain to me why did he change name?Kai Youshida was forced to change his name also?

vik
12-28-2016, 11:53 AM
Harimoto is Japanese like Li Ping is Qatarian.His real name s Zhang Ji he.He was forced to change his name to play for Japan?Could you explain to me why did he change name?Kai Yoshida was forced to change his name also?

vik
12-28-2016, 11:59 AM
Zhou You and Wang chuqin were beaten lately ,Fang Bo is also weaker,Yan An.All of them were beaten.It means after 4 big names is really big gap.I would say in 4-5 years it will be closer battle than now.maybe Harimoto can beat them even though he is chinese too.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
12-28-2016, 01:34 PM
Harimoto is Japanese like Li Ping is Qatarian.His real name s Zhang Ji he.He was forced to change his name to play for Japan?Could you explain to me why did he change name?Kai Yoshida was forced to change his name also?

you are a complete Troll and i'm just trying to stay polite.

you cannot compare Li Ping and Harimoto. nor Kaii Yoshida.

Harimoto parents are Chinese but he's lived in Japan since he is a baby, he goes to the Japanese public elementary school and he speaks perfect Japanese. He trains in Japan.

LI Ping is a mercenary, and i doubt he speaks more than a handful words of Arabic and he must be spending 1 week a year in Qatar, for the Qatar Open
Kaii YOSHIDA went to Japan from China when adult. Japanese ask all foreigners to take a Japanese name when establishing national IDs. I am European and if i was to ask for the Japanese nationality i would have to change my name into Japanese. my ID, my bank accounts etc... use a japanese phonetic transcription of my name as well.

it has nothing to do with the fact he is Chinese in particular.

ttpshot
12-28-2016, 03:57 PM
Harimoto is Japanese like Li Ping is Qatarian.His real name s Zhang Ji he.He was forced to change his name to play for Japan?Could you explain to me why did he change name?Kai Yoshida was forced to change his name also?

Seriously? A boy born and raised and trained in Japan? Compared to Li who was born and raised and trained in... China? Sure both of them have Chinese parents but you should google before you write mindlessly.

Raylazyfo
12-28-2016, 06:27 PM
so what ? a few years ago it was enough to beat other nations, now its not.
Harimoto is clearly a phenomenon, one can have the biggest expectations for him.

The Japanese players are still young. Miu HIRANO is losing to many Chinese players in the Chinese league but she is playing with them every week now. I think she is talented and can catch up in time. its not too late for her. Other Japanese players should follow her example.

Japan and Korea are closing the gap. Other nations are clearly lagging.

I agree Japan and Korea have a handful of very promising juniors (I think harimoto could win a few major titles).
But the question is whether any nation can beat china in the team event. There have been lots of great individual players from other countries (samsanov, boll, ryu seung min, schlager) but ever since the swedes in 2000 no one has challenged the Chinese, who seem to focus more on the team event than the singles. (Japan lost 0-3 in the last one)

yuri.saldon
12-28-2016, 06:47 PM
I agree Japan and Korea have a handful of very promising juniors (I think harimoto could win a few major titles).
But the question is whether any nation can beat china in the team event. There have been lots of great individual players from other countries (samsanov, boll, ryu seung min, schlager) but ever since the swedes in 2000 no one has challenged the Chinese, who seem to focus more on the team event than the singles. (Japan lost 0-3 in the last one)
Lost 1-3 in Olympics, Jun mizutani won against xu xin [emoji14]

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Suga D
12-28-2016, 11:11 PM
i saw and know of Ochsenhausen, its an amazing place but i feel they lack true belief (read their website and you'll see they on speak of europe) secondly they do not cater for Female players and thirdly they do not cater for very young player.
but what it currently is (its a dream for any aspiring tt player

I think it's a bit swabian understatement. But i have to agree, they don't even have a women's team. I hope they try to also keep an eye on females as well.
But for defence, the situation on female tabletennis is quite serious. The number of players has been decreasing more than on the male side and coaches have a hard time finding new talents. Also it's even more difficult to keep them in the sport after they turn sixteen/seventeen...
I believe this situation doesn't sound unfamiliar.

Interestingly, on the countryside where the social binding is stronger than in the big cities female players seem to 'survive' a little longer and hence the clubs are doing better.
In fact if you look at the first women's Bundesliga you will find many names of towns you haven't heard of...

But maybe if Petrissa Solja will win a major event then german female tabletennis might hopefully get a boost. Until then the situation is pretty serious. IMHO

vaggelinho
12-31-2016, 12:50 AM
I think this is very difficult right now. The main reason is that China sees Table tennis as their national sport. In other countries ,table tennis is not a sport that will provide you enough to spend the rest of your life even if you are one of the best. As many others said, young athletes tend to focus on other goals that eventually will give them way more than focusing on table tennis will ever do.

Zaid323918
02-02-2017, 02:25 PM
I truly believe that it isn't purely about infrastructure or talent pools or even keeping the kids at the age of 18...although they all play a factor.....right now we use Chinese coaches and leagues and training facilities to learn from the best...which leads to very good foundations....however we can't just repeat China's style and expect to win...they have several great advantages.

1. The sheer amount of people willing to play.....even if you got every person in my entire country (Canada) to want to play pro table tennis you couldn't compete with the numbers. And then everyone of those players has the regional, provincial and national coaching that we all want already ingrained into their system.

2. Chinese coaches and high level players exported are great...they have a wealth of experience and we can learn lots from them....however if we think that we are getting Chinese players and coaches that could have bettered their own national team, we are dreaming. We get players that couldn't make it! Their cast offs can coach and teach us the fundamentals just as well as liu guoliang, bit they do not know what it is like to be on the top.

3. They have NO fall back. We always have the ability to go to school and make something of ourselves if we don't make it in table tennis. (Which we won't so we already are preparing). In China the kids are recognized as having talent from a very young age (which we can do as well) then they are put into sports schools (which we can also do but it is a bit rarer) and then the race begins. If they don't make it in table tennis they can't change their minds and go be an engineer there....they will end up in basic poverty for their life.....its a do or die thing.


I believe there is a way to beat China. Sweden did it. Michael Maze did it (for one tournament), and the very odd European player has a good run against them by doing it.

It's called being original.

Sweden came out with a style designed to defeat the fast attackers. It was take a step back and let the ball slow down a and counter loop. When China realized this was winning they did what they always do and imitated them but they could never defeat the original as they didn't have the players to go back and practice against. Sweden stayed at the top. Being the best at this. Until they decided to let kong linghui decided to go train in Sweden to learn the style....then he went back to China and everyone practiced against him as Sweden began to age and that began the decline.

Michael maze went through almost three top Chinese players in a tournament that were destroying the rest of Europe by LOBBING of all things....they just hadn't seen it and hadn't practiced against it. They clearly went home. Practiced against lobbers until the cows came home and never lost to them again....(this is less of an example then Sweden but I'm leading to my main point...)

First. You need a solid foundation. As solid as the Chinese get. Solid foot work solid shots from both sides of the table etc etc.

Then....you have to stop thinking that you can beat China at their own game. We cannot.

We have to do something they haven't seen. And when stacked with a world class foundation...it becomes a weapon....

For example...(I'm no world class coach...but...). What about a grip change that allows for more angles on shots. What about using a type of rubber that everyone thinks is a disadvantage but you learn to use it in a way that it isn't. What about instead of worrying about counter looping you stay at the table and angle block much to you Chinese coaches dismay! and use your opponents power against him.....

These are just ideas of a ranter....but China will do what China has always done best. They will imitate. They will not originate.

IMHO....China's players now are faster more powerful Waldners with the exception of a few insane freaks.

Let's originate.



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I agree with you on most of what you said. The Chinese don't just imitate, they perfect the technique. For example, flicking was invented by a European player. (Werner Schlager or Kreanga) However, their flicks were nothing compared FZD's. In fact no player ttoday can flick better than him. The same goes for ML's looping. (No player can compete with him in this) Another point I would like to make is that with banning speed glue and switching to 40mm plastic balls, Europe has made it more difficult for themselves. Europe changes the rules trying to get an advantage and China adapts first and adapts properly. All top European players use tenison rubber on both FH and BH. But chinese player's use a chinese style rubber at least on their forehands. These rubbers don't give you has much spin and speed on a slow or medium stroke. But on a hard stroke you get more. You can see EmRatThich's videos about table tennis

yuri.saldon
02-02-2017, 09:33 PM
Who created shikita was petr korbel.

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phillypong
02-03-2017, 01:35 PM
Some facts/history

Chinese coach goes to Belgium (at first treated as a traitor) - result - World Champion over China
Sweden's Greats - dominated China
Austrian surprise - world champion over China
German super start - world cup winner over China
Korean footwork stars - 1998, 2004 Olympic champion over China

Over the pass 20 years, we have seen quite a lot of facts and to me, that could only be a start.

The rule changes, equipment changes etc has made it more challenging for all players.
I think if each of the top 10 countries can have "More" top players, then the result could be really different.
Its doable for sure

Lets not forget that the use of speed glue was a very important factor in the success of the Swedes and the Belgians , togehter with the 38 mm celluloid ball it was possible for players to generate massive speed and spin.
The Chinese were overpowered by this material combo ! And of course the fact that there was an exceptional generation of players (Waldner, Persson, Appelgren, ...) all at the same time.

Also the dedication is not as with the Chinese players, i know for a fact that our national team players (Belgium) drink alcohol like CRAZY when they go party. I guess they already are at the level they want to be (playing professionally) and getting enough attention from the ladies ...

vik
06-24-2017, 11:24 AM
Now without 3 best players will be beaten