Shibaev Illegal Serve?

I can clearly see what you meant Dan. As Marcos was a left handed opponent, Shibaev body was clearly blocking his sight of the ball. he might have a genuine case there. And, it seems Timo had the same problem with him. However, for a right handed opponent, I don't think there would be much of a problem.

what I notice is that Shibaev's serve is very close to the illegal, where some of his serve, his left hand does not open wide enough. Then from a left handed view, it becomes that he is serving under his left hand.

Well, people just dealt with these serves in the past (before the whole serve legal vs illegal movement gathered pace). So the same thing applies today - just deal with it. Freitas got beaten fair and square by a better player and should just accept it as that.

LOL Sir Azlan, I believe that clarify things..
However I do agree that his service is one of the most controversial after Xu Xin's..

i think it would have been a legal serve he had taken his left hand down....

If the opponent has complaints, he should make his case during the match to the referee, not afterwards.

most definitely illegal

Everything that you guys are saying applys for a righty player as well. When a righty plays a lefty their bodies can sometimes block the serve from view, but that is the receivers fault. You should always adjust your starting position to see the service. I don't believe that Shibaev's service is illegal because the angle of the opponent is so much different than the angle of the camera. I agree that his serves are borderline, but as that stands that means they're legal.

This is one of the top reasons why I hate watching TT from this angle. It's the reason why many spectators aren't interested in the sport because they can't see what is actually happening. Actually to be honest I don't believe that umpires should have the right to call a service. I think that a receiver should have the right to challenge a service once per game and check out a camera angle suitable for viewing the service. Umpires should only be able to call blatantly obvious illegal serves.

There are some players who blocked their serve though unintentionally. In Shibaev case, I think Marcos should make it known to the umpire.

Everything that you guys are saying applys for a righty player as well. When a righty plays a lefty their bodies can sometimes block the serve from view, but that is the receivers fault. You should always adjust your starting position to see the service.

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As mentioned by Richard above, I must apologize and disagree. I'm a righthander (so I stand to left of the table), and if a lefthander is serving and depriving me the sight of the ball, I would definitely state my case to the umpire. Why should I change my position so I can have a peak at his serve, to my disadvantage? I wouldn't want to stand on the right side or middle of the table and exposing my weaker BH (susceptible to down the line serve). When I serve, my ready position is the same as Marcos and Shibaev, but I rotate my body to expose the ball a fraction of a second before I hit the ball.

I mean, I've played TT seriously since the 80s, long before the serving rule was implemented, and even I managed to adapt. The serve is clearly a fault serve, because it deprived the opponent (Marcos) from playing his natural game, and therefore putting Shibaev on the advantage end. If a serve put the server in an advantage position, without relying on his serving skill, then it is a fault.
It's the same as a no toss serve, or hiding the ball in the palm of the hand, I can adapt, but it will put me on the losing end, and greater advantage to the server.

Look at Shibaev, he moved to his right to receive Marcos's serve, and flick with his BH. He may have a strong BH flick which always put Marcos on the back foot. So Shibaev changing his position to flick is his natural and stronger game. So it is not to his disadvantage, so obviously he didn't complained to the umpire. But it may not be the case for Marcos. He may have a weaker flick game and did not want to try it, just because he couldn't see the serve, and he wouldn't want to risk it. So he ended up just pushing the ball back. Marcos may have a strong FH flick, but he couldn't flick the ball coz he couldn't see what type of serve was Shibaev serving.

lol talking about the term illegal, sir Carl is about to come.
RUN !!

Hahahahaha well I didn't say illegal, did I? I said fault serve....hahaha

@ Azlan - Hey I feel you. I know that you may think that gives you an advantage, but it doesn't. The only reason we lead to our left (as Righty players) is in the hopes that they'll serve to our backhand side. Typically that's the case with Righty players who do a forehand service. They will hit 80 percent of their services to the backhand and almost always those are short so they result in a push and 3rd ball attack.

When playing a lefty player you want to stay in the middle of the table anyways. Because services that are common for lefty's (the wide righty forehand side) are much easier if you stand to the left of the table. They result in many mistakes and give the lefty the advantage anyways.

As to your second paragraph. I think you need to do some thinking here. "If a serve put the server in an advantage position, without relying on his serving skill, then it is a fault." So you're basically saying that all services should be from the middle of the table and should be backhand services. The fact that you serve from either the right of left side of the table gives you an advantage. The skill of the service depends on how well your opponent reads the spin. Marcos imo just got lazy and didn't adjust his starting position which caused him to misread the services. I don't know about you, but at my clubs the number one complaint I hear about are receiving service. It's the hardest skill to master in TT and by far is a novel in itself to write about. Marcos complaining about the service after the game is just letting his ego get out of hand. If the service had been truly bothering him in the game he would have said something about it. I mean come on wouldn't you? If he complained about it afterwords I would say that is just his ego trying to lift up his poor performance.

I also don't know about you, but a no toss serve and hiding the ball in the palm of the hand don't do anything to the ball. The effects of doing this are minimal at best and if you say you've been around the block in service then any service would probably be easy to read for you. And the server should ALWAYS have the greater advantage that's the whole point of the game.

And to your last paragraph, Shibaev flicking the service is irrelevant because he's a lefty player and he would always have the advantage in that area to begin with. He plays 95 percent righty's and 5 percent lefty's where as Marcos plays 5 percent of lefty's and 95 percent of righty's. Receiving the service the way Marcos did was an error in tactics and judgment. I'm fairly sure that Marcos could see the ball well enough what he couldn't see was the stroke of the service. It's hard to read a serve when all you see is the ball, but according to the rules that's a legal service.

Wow this novel was large again. But hopefully this explains where I'm coming from. Azlan no hard feelings here I just wanted to point out some logistics.

If the service had been truly bothering him in the game he would have said something about it. I mean come on wouldn't you? If he complained about it afterwords I would say that is just his ego trying to lift up his poor performance.

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That's all I'm saying here buddy. I'm just saying Marcos should have highlighted the matter immediately to the umpire, coz I think he has a genuine case here.

I would also complain during the game than afterwards, because afterwards, nothing can be done.
I wouldn't change my starting position neither. Why? The serves have to be legal, that's why.
Maybe a right-handed player would see better in his starting position.
But in this case, illegal, and Marcos Freitas should have told that during the game!

Exactly Rhydian, the rule said the ball must be made seen at all times, regardless where the receiver stands at the table, left middle or right. It is as simple as that. I've been playing for over 20 years, competitively...and even I can appreciate the rule and adapt. In the old days I hid the ball with my hand and body, but I have to change that now.

I'm still not sure wether his serve is illegal or not. I highly doubt it. Also I don't think he hides it more than Freitas himself does, if we speak about removing the arm. If you compare it to the old serving under the arm, both are very legal though. Marcos should be able to see the flick of Shibaev's bat all the way through and I think he can.

Maybe he can see the ball buddy, probably the reason why he didn't make the complaint to the umpire. Funny enough that Timo mentioned and highlighted the same thing too when he played Shibaev. I think, some of his serve covered the ball more and some didn't, depending what serve he was doing. But with Timo, he knows that he's going to beat Shibaev anyway, basically he's saying, "cover the ball as much as you like, I'm still gonna whoop you" hehehehe

100% illegal. In my opinion, Shibaev has the most illegal serves out there. Throws the ball back a lot, and his arm is clearly in the way. I remember Timo playing in Champions League last season or 2 years ago and he said that he wasnt happy with the way Shibaev served against him. Its always going to be an issue when a right hander and lefty play each other. I am left handed and a good 1 in 3 players i play, i cant see the ball at the point of contact.

azlan said:

Exactly Rhydian, the rule said the ball must be made seen at all times, regardless where the receiver stands at the table, left middle or right. It is as simple as that. I've been playing for over 20 years, competitively...and even I can appreciate the rule and adapt. In the old days I hid the ball with my hand and body, but I have to change that now.

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I don't play so much time like you but I also had to adapt to that rule ^^ rules are there so that the game becomes more fair and good ^^ if it wasn't so then the game would be decided by the best server or the best who hides the ball contact ^^

azlan said:

Maybe he can see the ball buddy, probably the reason why he didn't make the complaint to the umpire. Funny enough that Timo mentioned and highlighted the same thing too when he played Shibaev. I think, some of his serve covered the ball more and some didn't, depending what serve he was doing. But with Timo, he knows that he's going to beat Shibaev anyway, basically he's saying, "cover the ball as much as you like, I'm still gonna whoop you" hehehehe

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Haha good one ;D