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ttpshot
11-22-2016, 03:33 AM
Service tutorial video by one of the best server in Japan.
Will add the translation if anyone is interested.

1:15 For Topspin serve to look like backspin, the racket needs to start higher than the ball at the back swing. During the downward motion, cock the wrist to lower the racket head then uncock to impart topspin at the contact.

1:27 *Topspin disguised as backspin

1:53 Disguise it as backspin with scooping motion at the follow through.

2:23 *Backspin disguised as backspin

2:30 *Backspin disguised as topspin

2:41 For backspin server to look like topspin, start the racket from below the ball at the back swing. At the contact, cut the ball then have upwards follow through.

3:07 Vertical racket angle at the impact and swing from up to down.

3:13 As little downward follow through as possible to disguise it as topspin.

3:30 *Topspin disguised as topspin

3:52 Tactics: If the opponent swings hard, I tend to use topspin serve more. Vice versa for backspin serve.

4:19 *No spin

4:56 Tilt the racket forward so that the service looks like topspin.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6bKUkffiA0

vvk1
11-22-2016, 08:20 AM
Translation would be very useful.

iammaru
11-22-2016, 09:01 AM
Amazing!! Thank you so much. Please, please add translation. I don't understand a thing :D
His motion is really deceptive for me, I can't read the spin correctly the first few times even with slow motion.

ttpshot
11-22-2016, 09:34 AM
Brief translation added.

Suga D
11-22-2016, 11:37 AM
Service tutorial video by one of the best server in Japan.
Will add the translation if anyone is interested.

1:15 For Topspin serve to look like backspin, the racket needs to start higher than the ball at the back swing. During the downward motion, cock the wrist to lower the racket head then uncock to impart topspin at the contact.

1:27 *Topspin disguised as backspin

1:53 Disguise it as backspin with scooping motion at the follow through.

2:23 *Backspin disguised as backspin

2:30 *Backspin disguised as topspin

2:41 For backspin server to look like topspin, start the racket from below the ball at the back swing. At the contact, cut the ball then have upwards follow through.

3:07 Vertical racket angle at the impact and swing from up to down.

3:13 As little downward follow through as possible to disguise it as topspin.

3:30 *Topspin disguised as topspin

3:52 Tactics: If the opponent swings hard, I tend to use topspin serve more. Vice versa for backspin serve.

4:19 *No spin

4:56 Tilt the racket forward so that the service looks like topspin.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6bKUkffiA0

Amazing Tutorial, ttpshot!
Thanks a lot for sharing and translating.
[To keep up OSPH's nice vibe] domo arigato gozaimashita.

That video is actually showing what i have been trying to describe in words on the chit chat thread a couple of days ago and makes it better understandable.

That is some high-level deceiption here. I think one of the best tutorials i've seen so far.

And the part in the end, where the player tries to receive is exactly the scenario my clubmates and me had when Keini wanted us to receive his serves.

Tareq, see it's all about deceiptiveness here.
If you use a different kind of serve with different kind of spin, a smart and experienced opponent will find out quickly and the whole effect of the serve will be out the window.

Whereas if you use the same kind of motion but vary the spin it will be much more difficult to read 'cause everything happens in a split second and you have to observe closely.

Maybe practicing with a higher level player will show you what we're trying to explain to you.

When we had Thomas Keinath coaching us, in the end of the practice session he let everyone receive five serves. If one didn't observe closely one could easily get fooled by this, 'cause he used five times nearly the same motion but each time it had different spin.
Side-top spin
Side-back spin
Pure side spin one way
Pure side spin the other way
Pure back spin.
And even higher level players sometimes fail to read the spin properly.

Timo Boll once said after he played against Waldner that sometimes all he could do was guess, 'cause he was unable to read it properly.

Same thing was said about Werner Schlager's serves.
Even high level players could sometimes only guess....

And exactly THIS is the reason why those top level players mostly use the same looking motion, 'cause the serves look the same even though they're NOT!
[Emoji1]

Watching your vid should become mandatory for learning how to serve efficiently IMHO.
Thanks for taking time to translate this for us.

ttpshot
11-22-2016, 01:13 PM
Amazing Tutorial, ttpshot!
Thanks a lot for sharing and translating.
[To keep up OSPH's nice vibe] domo arigato gozaimashita.

That video is actually showing what i have been trying to describe in words on the chit chat thread a couple of days ago and makes it better understandable.

That is some high-level deceiption here. I think one of the best tutorials i've seen so far.

And the part in the end, where the player tries to receive is exactly the scenario my clubmates and me had when Keini wanted us to receive his serves.


Watching your vid should become mandatory for learning how to serve efficiently IMHO.
Thanks for taking time to translate this for us.

Glad you liked it!
This video was done in conjunction with TT magazine in Japan where everything is explained more in details.
I can't paste the article here(for obvious reasons), but some of the tips provided there were:

-Hard to read service is better than spinny service
-Don't grip the racket hard and stay relaxed throughout
-Record yourself serving because how you appear to your opponent is more important
-Mix a little side spin so that the topspin/back spin is harder to read

His services is good enough to be called into Japanese national training center to teach NT members so I'm sure there's more secrets and tips but this is more than enough(at least for me).

Here's server in action. Estimated rating is around 2500 in JTTA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NS4591tYlc

ajtatosmano2
11-22-2016, 04:49 PM
That's the case when you have to forget looking his movement and just watch the ball. He's really good at disguising!

Suga D
11-22-2016, 06:12 PM
Glad you liked it!
This video was done in conjunction with TT magazine in Japan where everything is explained more in details.
I can't paste the article here(for obvious reasons), but some of the tips provided there were:

-Hard to read service is better than spinny service
-Don't grip the racket hard and stay relaxed throughout
-Record yourself serving because how you appear to your opponent is more important
-Mix a little side spin so that the topspin/back spin is harder to read

His services is good enough to be called into Japanese national training center to teach NT members so I'm sure there's more secrets and tips but this is more than enough(at least for me).

Here's server in action. Estimated rating is around 2500 in JTTA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NS4591tYlc

Thanks again for sharing.

I can agree to every single advice you have given.
I've heard pretty much the same from other coaches as well. Thanks for pointing this out.

I do wonder though how your National rating translates into german TTR.
But I think it should be possible to translate since so many japanese players have been playing or even still are playing in the TTBL.

I have to show your video to my coach. I believe he will love it...
[Emoji2]

ttpshot
11-24-2016, 12:11 AM
Thanks again for sharing.

I can agree to every single advice you have given.
I've heard pretty much the same from other coaches as well. Thanks for pointing this out.

I do wonder though how your National rating translates into german TTR.
But I think it should be possible to translate since so many japanese players have been playing or even still are playing in the TTBL.

I have to show your video to my coach. I believe he will love it...
[Emoji2]

The rating system is not very popular in Japan so his rating is estimated based on JTTA's guidline(2500=3rd/4th round of the national tournament).

iammaru
11-24-2016, 03:42 PM
I tried his topspin disguised as backspin serve (1:27) today, it's really hard. I can't seem to generate any kind of topspin, it's no spin all the time. He made it look so easy :)) Has anyone has tried and successfully copied that serve? Any other tips? Thanks

I've watched like 100 times and still amazed how much topspin he generates with that motion.

Steven
11-24-2016, 09:06 PM
I tried his topspin disguised as backspin serve (1:27) today, it's really hard. I can't seem to generate any kind of topspin, it's no spin all the time. He made it look so easy :)) Has anyone has tried and successfully copied that serve? Any other tips? Thanks

I've watched like 100 times and still amazed how much topspin he generates with that motion.

I agree. Even in the slow motions it looks like he's just serving with no spin.

ttpshot
11-24-2016, 11:50 PM
I tried his topspin disguised as backspin serve (1:27) today, it's really hard. I can't seem to generate any kind of topspin, it's no spin all the time. He made it look so easy :)) Has anyone has tried and successfully copied that serve? Any other tips? Thanks

I've watched like 100 times and still amazed how much topspin he generates with that motion.

They're really hard aren't they?

One other tip is that these service motion don't "brush" the ball much. It's more like chops or speed loops so you may notice that most of his services are long because spin is imparted by hitting the ball in short stroke.

EDITED:
Found the example of backspin service with no "brush" at the contact.
This is the sample movie for service tutorial DVD done by same TT magazine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfDc37JxgUM

doraemon
11-25-2016, 12:05 AM
i find it hard to get a really "meaty" contact to create optimum spin.

since i am not that tall, getting topspin is also a little awkward.

it does seem to be quite a tricky and hard to read serve, albeit not excessively spinny like doing a plain pendulum serve

Suga D
11-25-2016, 02:38 AM
And exactly that unexpected topspin can create an easy pop up for one....

NextLevel
11-25-2016, 03:36 AM
I tried his topspin disguised as backspin serve (1:27) today, it's really hard. I can't seem to generate any kind of topspin, it's no spin all the time. He made it look so easy :)) Has anyone has tried and successfully copied that serve? Any other tips? Thanks

I've watched like 100 times and still amazed how much topspin he generates with that motion.

What they mean when they say deception is more important than spin is that sometimes, you can generate a lot of spin but if it is obvious, the returner might compensate easily for it. It doesn't mean that the serves are not very spinny - they clearly are. But in this case, it is more a light topspin or a side topspin than a pure heavy topspin. If you have no spin but your opponents push the ball, you are on the right path.

The other thing is that usually, if two serves look the same, one of the serves is very spinny (if they are short, this is usually the backspin serve) and the topspin serve is then not very heavy topspin, but just something that you pop up if you get fooled and try to return it like you would the backspin serve.

iammaru
11-25-2016, 08:54 AM
They're really hard aren't they?

One other tip is that these service motion don't "brush" the ball much. It's more like chops or speed loops so you may notice that most of his services are long because spin is imparted by hitting the ball in short stroke.

thanks for the tip. I think maybe I didn't hit the ball hard enough. And I tried too hard to generate topspin, now think about it, it seems to have more sidespin then topspin. I'll keep practicing anyway, I like these serves for a very long time and this is the first time I see such a good video tutorial about them and how effective they can be. Thanks again.

iammaru
11-25-2016, 08:56 AM
What they mean when they say deception is more important than spin is that sometimes, you can generate a lot of spin but if it is obvious, the returner might compensate easily for it. It doesn't mean that the serves are not very spinny - they clearly are. But in this case, it is more a light topspin or a side topspin than a pure heavy topspin. If you have no spin but your opponents push the ball, you are on the right path.

The other thing is that usually, if two serves look the same, one of the serves is very spinny (if they are short, this is usually the backspin serve) and the topspin serve is then not very heavy topspin, but just something that you pop up if you get fooled and try to return it like you would the backspin serve.
you are right, I think if I can make the backspin serve a little more spinny and the other serve no spin or side spin, it will work even if I can't generate much topspin. Thanks.

Delusion To Divination
11-26-2016, 02:14 AM
Service tutorial video by one of the best server in Japan.
Will add the translation if anyone is interested.

1:15 For Topspin serve to look like backspin, the racket needs to start higher than the ball at the back swing. During the downward motion, cock the wrist to lower the racket head then uncock to impart topspin at the contact.

1:27 *Topspin disguised as backspin

1:53 Disguise it as backspin with scooping motion at the follow through.

2:23 *Backspin disguised as backspin

2:30 *Backspin disguised as topspin

2:41 For backspin server to look like topspin, start the racket from below the ball at the back swing. At the contact, cut the ball then have upwards follow through.

3:07 Vertical racket angle at the impact and swing from up to down.

3:13 As little downward follow through as possible to disguise it as topspin.

3:30 *Topspin disguised as topspin

3:52 Tactics: If the opponent swings hard, I tend to use topspin serve more. Vice versa for backspin serve.

4:19 *No spin

4:56 Tilt the racket forward so that the service looks like topspin.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6bKUkffiA0


Great tutorial,a lot to learn. Thanks for sharing :)

RogerH
11-26-2016, 06:53 PM
Great tutorial. The translation is helpful ,but its a pity the subtitles are not available in English. Apart from that, brilliantly deceptive serves.

Tinykin
11-28-2016, 12:32 PM
Craig Bryant uses this serve extensively


https://vimeo.com/151301627

gmiller2233
01-18-2017, 02:01 PM
Great post thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FloKing
02-10-2017, 01:16 PM
@ttpshot Many many thanks! The video combined with your subtitles is a fantastic tutorial! :D

I spent today about half an hour working on one of the serves.
Guys, could you tell which spin does it look to you? Under, side or top?? :p


https://youtu.be/j8JLZ5CbvxQ

TTFrenzy
02-10-2017, 02:51 PM
LOL @ 1.47 he actually puts sideunder spin and not side top. he contacts underneath the ball.

NextLevel
02-10-2017, 03:13 PM
LOL @ 1.47 he actually puts sideunder spin and not side top. he contacts underneath the ball.

Isn't that the intent?

SchemeSC
02-10-2017, 03:25 PM
The serve at 1:47 looks like a topspin serve to me. That's what it says in the very first post in ttpshots description. But I'm terrible at reading spin so dont go by me.

TTFrenzy
02-10-2017, 03:30 PM
Isn't that the intent?

well,
in translation it says topspin disguised as underspin. my guess is his contact was a tiny little bit off cause he is really trying to snap his wrist fast after contact in order to disguise it, but he ended up adding some underspin. The underspin imparted is very low so maybe after the bounce the rotation is pure sidespin. Quite an interesting technique will definitely try it out cause many players at my level have trouble with this serve

Cant tell for sure though how much under it has, his wrist motion is really fast even in the slow motion

TTFrenzy
02-10-2017, 03:39 PM
Service tutorial video by one of the best server in Japan.
Will add the translation if anyone is interested.

1:15 For Topspin serve to look like backspin, the racket needs to start higher than the ball at the back swing. During the downward motion, cock the wrist to lower the racket head then uncock to impart topspin at the contact.

1:27 *Topspin disguised as backspin

1:53 Disguise it as backspin with scooping motion at the follow through.

2:23 *Backspin disguised as backspin

2:30 *Backspin disguised as topspin

2:41 For backspin server to look like topspin, start the racket from below the ball at the back swing. At the contact, cut the ball then have upwards follow through.

3:07 Vertical racket angle at the impact and swing from up to down.

3:13 As little downward follow through as possible to disguise it as topspin.

3:30 *Topspin disguised as topspin

3:52 Tactics: If the opponent swings hard, I tend to use topspin serve more. Vice versa for backspin serve.

4:19 *No spin

4:56 Tilt the racket forward so that the service looks like topspin.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6bKUkffiA0

Alittle help here please, what does he (or you) mean by underspin disguised as underspin and topspin as topspin? Isnt it pointless?

FloKing
02-10-2017, 03:54 PM
@ttpshot Many many thanks! The video combined with your subtitles is a fantastic tutorial! :D

I spent today about half an hour working on one of the serves.
Guys, could you tell which spin does it look to you? Under, side or top?? :p


https://youtu.be/j8JLZ5CbvxQ

Could you give me your toughts please? I would like to know if I get the deception right :)

SchemeSC
02-10-2017, 03:56 PM
12108

Here's what I THINK is the moment of contact for the serve at 1:47. It's hard for me to imagine that this racket angle could produce a ball that has any type of underspin on it by the time it reaches the receiver. I think most of the wrist action (scoop)is happening after the ball is already off the racket.

TTFrenzy
02-10-2017, 04:12 PM
12108

Here's what I THINK is the moment of contact for the serve at 1:47. It's hard for me to imagine that this racket angle could produce a ball that has any type of underspin on it by the time it reaches the receiver. I think most of the wrist action (scoop)is happening after the ball is already off the racket.

Yes inded he does that in order to disguise the serve as underspin BUT if you look again and again he rushes to begin hiswrist snap and his timing is a little to early so he brushes a little underneat the ball.

His wrist motion is definitely great , dont wanna be a semantics "nazi" but this serve is resulting in sidespin disguised as sideunder, there is nowhere topspin in it. The purpose is to get a push with an open racket if the receiver is fooled and thinks there is mostly underspin whereas it has pure sidespin so the ball will popup for a 3rd ball attack. His intention was to brush to the side of the ball and he got it a little off

I want to try a side with a little bit of underspin in it with a coloured ball so I can see what happens after the 2nd bounce. Maybe my observation has no significance because at some serves lets say "90 % side 10 % under" after the 2nd bounce the ball starts to rotate sideways but the tempo is definitely slower compared to side/sidetop serve and may also fool the receiver

TTFrenzy
02-10-2017, 04:15 PM
Could you give me your toughts please? I would like to know if I get the deception right :)


asdsad

From that camera angle I cant tell which serve is what so I guess your wrist motion is great. Lower your body in coordination with the ball or wait for the ball to fall on net height, your serves are too high

NextLevel
02-10-2017, 04:33 PM
Yes inded he does that in order to disguise the serve as underspin BUT if you look again and again he rushes to begin hiswrist snap and his timing is a little to early so he brushes a little underneat the ball.

His wrist motion is definitely great , dont wanna be a semantics "nazi" but this serve is resulting in sidespin disguised as sideunder, there is nowhere topspin in it. The purpose is to get a push with an open racket if the receiver is fooled and thinks there is mostly underspin whereas it has pure sidespin so the ball will popup for a 3rd ball attack. His intention was to brush to the side of the ball and he got it a little off

I want to try a side with a little bit of underspin in it with a coloured ball so I can see what happens after the 2nd bounce. Maybe my observation has no significance because at some serves lets say "90 % side 10 % under" after the 2nd bounce the ball starts to rotate sideways but the tempo is definitely slower compared to sideunder serve and may also fool the receiver


You are a semantics Nazi. Most sidespin serves appear as top to the receiver.

TTFrenzy
02-10-2017, 09:39 PM
You are a semantics Nazi. Most sidespin serves appear as top to the receiver.


hahahaha
ok!

FloKing
02-11-2017, 10:31 AM
Could you give me your toughts please? I would like to know if I get the deception right :)

My training video was not a success. The answer was top spin disguised as back spin. It is the first serve described in the video, the serve you are talking about. I do not manage to execute top spin every time, so it is frequently side spin.
I wanted to know whether it could have tricked you into a back spin serve. I have not tried it with a real opponent yet.

ttpshot
02-11-2017, 03:10 PM
Alittle help here please, what does he (or you) mean by underspin disguised as underspin and topspin as topspin? Isnt it pointless?

At the end of the movie, you see the other player receiving the serve. It's used after the receiver puts one in the net misreading the topspin. It basically means that the underspin serve in same serving motion.

TTFrenzy
02-11-2017, 04:33 PM
At the end of the movie, you see the other player receiving the serve. It's used after the receiver puts one in the net misreading the topspin. It basically means that the underspin serve in same serving motion.

Yes thats why I asked, it was probably a mistake by the OP. Underspin disguised as underspin does not make any sense.

TTFrenzy
02-11-2017, 04:37 PM
At the end of the movie, you see the other player receiving the serve. It's used after the receiver puts one in the net misreading the topspin. It basically means that the underspin serve in same serving motion.


Yes I think,

your motion before and after contact is just fine. You have to be extremely talented to disguise PURE underspin as PURE topspin and vice versa. Its much easier to add the sidespin on both occasions so the opponent keeps guessing if it is sidetopspin or sideunderspin or even pure sidespin . Just try to hit the ball lower on net height level, even if you add lots of underspin your serves are way too high so you give the receiver more time to react and also attacking chances with a flick or flick "minismash"

Tenergy05
02-11-2017, 09:27 PM
I tried his topspin disguised as backspin serve (1:27) today, it's really hard. I can't seem to generate any kind of topspin, it's no spin all the time. He made it look so easy :)) Has anyone has tried and successfully copied that serve? Any other tips? Thanks

I've watched like 100 times and still amazed how much topspin he generates with that motion.

If you're not getting as much spin on a serve as you should, if you've seen more spin from others, start your motion later than you usually do.

Tenergy05
02-11-2017, 09:39 PM
Yes inded he does that in order to disguise the serve as underspin BUT if you look again and again he rushes to begin hiswrist snap and his timing is a little to early so he brushes a little underneat the ball.

His wrist motion is definitely great , dont wanna be a semantics "nazi" but this serve is resulting in sidespin disguised as sideunder, there is nowhere topspin in it. The purpose is to get a push with an open racket if the receiver is fooled and thinks there is mostly underspin whereas it has pure sidespin so the ball will popup for a 3rd ball attack. His intention was to brush to the side of the ball and he got it a little off

I want to try a side with a little bit of underspin in it with a coloured ball so I can see what happens after the 2nd bounce. Maybe my observation has no significance because at some serves lets say "90 % side 10 % under" after the 2nd bounce the ball starts to rotate sideways but the tempo is definitely slower compared to side/sidetop serve and may also fool the receiver

In my experience, the way this kind of serve is deceptive because 1. your arm comes more from behind the body so receiver can't see it until later and less of it, this little bit is important to how they prepare if you can serve to different locations 2. the spin deception is not back vs side or top, but back vs on-axis. Real side is easier to see because how you must angle the racket different to contact the side, but back and axis are similar racket angle from receiver perspective.

tropical
02-11-2017, 09:49 PM
In my club there is one player who is the master of this serve. I used to beat him 8 years ago before he knew the serve. Now I lose to him just too easy! Even the pips has problem not making the return low enough. Very good and deceptive serve, very high level and hard to execute.

Baal
02-11-2017, 09:52 PM
My training video was not a success. The answer was top spin disguised as back spin. It is the first serve described in the video, the serve you are talking about. I do not manage to execute top spin every time, so it is frequently side spin.
I wanted to know whether it could have tricked you into a back spin serve. I have not tried it with a real opponent yet.

It is the serve motion I use most of the time, so I could see what you were doing. But you are well on your way! Once you start messing with this serve, you eventually find what gets opponents to guess wrong. It won't take you long and it won't make your wrists sore like reverse pendulum. TTEdge has a good video on some other tricks to make it sneakier.

NextLevel
02-11-2017, 10:25 PM
Yes thats why I asked, it was probably a mistake by the OP. Underspin disguised as underspin does not make any sense.

Just a translation issue. I understood what he was trying to say. Maybe"sold" or "presented" instead of "disguised".

TTFrenzy
02-11-2017, 11:03 PM
In my experience, the way this kind of serve is deceptive because 1. your arm comes more from behind the body so receiver can't see it until later and less of it, this little bit is important to how they prepare if you can serve to different locations 2. the spin deception is not back vs side or top, but back vs on-axis. Real side is easier to see because how you must angle the racket different to contact the side, but back and axis are similar racket angle from receiver perspective.

the deception im talking about is sidetop vs sideunder because the pendulum or reverse pendulum motion are quite similar even on pure sidespin. Top & under deception is extremely difficult to disguise that was my comparison. What do you mean by "on" axis? You seem not to understand what I was explaining, Sidetop sideunder and pure side can all be created with the same motion before and after contact. It is also a matter of timing, contacting the ball at different phases of its descendance,maintaining the same "shoveling" action (from side, then down, then up after contact has been made)

The whole point of deception is to create a fast motion where before and after contact the motion is the same. This "Shovel" technique is great because the nature of the motion creates the deception making a sidetop serve look like sideunder because the hand seems to "shove" under the ball and then going upwards after contact, giving the impression that the ball has underspin

On a re gular pendulum serve , at least in my eyes, is much harder to hide the spin because the receiver has better vision of the contact point without the playing hand getting in the way . In the shovel service, if you manage to do it fast like this guy does the follow through somehow "confuses" the receiver more compared to a pendulum serve where the playing hand can follow through without obstructing vision of the contact point.

Miu hirano is a great example of this service

NextLevel
02-11-2017, 11:16 PM
It is the serve motion I use most of the time, so I could see what you were doing. But you are well on your way! Once you start messing with this serve, you eventually find what gets opponents to guess wrong. It won't take you long and it won't make your wrists sore like reverse pendulum. TTEdge has a good video on some other tricks to make it sneakier.


Would like to echo Baal's sentiments. I was the student in the TTEdge videos and I did a lot of things to work on that serve and it got better with months of practice and seeing what worked in matches. My major point scorer is still backspin sold as topspin/sidespin. It's a fascinating serve and it gets better when you have an idea what to do. My original whip motions were too large and yours can be smaller and sharper.

TTFrenzy
02-11-2017, 11:19 PM
My training video was not a success. The answer was top spin disguised as back spin. It is the first serve described in the video, the serve you are talking about. I do not manage to execute top spin every time, so it is frequently side spin.
I wanted to know whether it could have tricked you into a back spin serve. I have not tried it with a real opponent yet.


Donot, bother practicing with pure topspin vs pure underspin deception . Sidetop looking as sideunder and viceversa is just fine (besides the whole point of deception is for the ball to popup,or go straight to the net, not trying to copy ma lin). I am really jealous of your fluent motion so you are on your way once you manage to make your serves low.

Baal
02-12-2017, 02:39 AM
Floking, For the first time messing with this motion, it was great.

Suga D
02-12-2017, 08:57 AM
Donot, bother practicing with pure topspin vs pure underspin deception . Sidetop looking as sideunder and viceversa is just fine (besides the whole point of deception is for the ball to popup,or go straight to the net, not trying to copy ma lin). I am really jealous of your fluent motion so you are on your way once you manage to make your serves low.

Totally agree on this.
Not too long ago we were training with Tanja Krämer [formerly Tanja Hain-Hoffmann], and she told us that it's not so much the amount of spin but rather the deceiption itself giving her easy popups. She said even in the Tischtennis Damen-Bundesliga some girls are struggling with her serves.
BTW:
In a couple of hours she and her team will be playing...
[Emoji6]

Hamasaki_Fanz
02-12-2017, 10:11 AM
Jab/Shovel Service video

jabbu janai, kore makikomi da~! hahahah

Tenergy05
02-12-2017, 11:14 AM
the deception im talking about is sidetop vs sideunder because the pendulum or reverse pendulum motion are quite similar even on pure sidespin. Top & under deception is extremely difficult to disguise that was my comparison. What do you mean by "on" axis? You seem not to understand what I was explaining, Sidetop sideunder and pure side can all be created with the same motion before and after contact. It is also a matter of timing, contacting the ball at different phases of its descendance,maintaining the same "shoveling" action (from side, then down, then up after contact has been made)


I see what you're saying, and I was saying the same thing for pendulum underspin serve, with the same type of deception except rotated 90 degree.

What on-axis means: the ball can rotate in 3 axis. top/under is one, left/right side is another, on-axis is the third with axis towards the receiver.

In your example, the variation on the sidespin is moving the racket up bit more or down bit, but in the same plane as for sidespin so it's harder for receiver to judge. In my example, the variation on the underspin is moving the racket to one side bit more, but also in the same plane so similar hard to judge. The result if they push is pop-up in the direction of the axis spin you apply, because there's less under than they expect and axis causes some side-like reaction for pushes.




The whole point of deception is to create a fast motion where before and after contact the motion is the same. This "Shovel" technique is great because the nature of the motion creates the deception making a sidetop serve look like sideunder because the hand seems to "shove" under the ball and then going upwards after contact, giving the impression that the ball has underspin


This is another type of deception where the contact point isn't where it's pretend to be. In the video it's earlier but server keeps swinging to sell the backspin. I do the same idea but much simpler in a regular underspin serve, but the ball is toss slight more back and contact before normal point, so same motion but much less spin than normal. When you try to do complicated stuff like in the video, unless it's perfect smart opponent will know something is up.




On a re gular pendulum serve , at least in my eyes, is much harder to hide the spin because the receiver has better vision of the contact point without the playing hand getting in the way . In the shovel service, if you manage to do it fast like this guy does the follow through somehow "confuses" the receiver more compared to a pendulum serve where the playing hand can follow through without obstructing vision of the contact point.

Miu hirano is a great example of this service

I think the shovel for this is only more effective because few people serve that way, so most aren't use to figuring out what's wrong if it's not spin they expect. Some portion of penholders do shovel because it's more natural motion for them, just like their push shot.

There was some serve advice Werner Schlager gave about his serve where the racket come from below the ball, and mixes in both what you're talking about above with sidetop/sideunder and quick change in racket direction like you say about this shovel serve, to get top or under. It's something unique he did and I would use sometimes, but people I practice with who've seen it a bunch stop being deceived because I never had the motivation to perfect the motion. But they still fall for the simple "dumb" things like more/less spin or even surprise long underspin after couple normal ones. The point being unless you want to put countless hours like a pro, people who get fooled will get wise to it and it stops work much quicker than it takes you to master.

FloKing
02-12-2017, 03:07 PM
Floking, For the first time messing with this motion, it was great.

A big thank to everyone!! It's very helpful and encouraging!! :)

tropical
02-12-2017, 03:24 PM
I can also see some people who serve good normally do not receive and play rally well (I am one of them). The guy who uses this serve to beat me can easily beat all <2000 players in my club. He can have a good match with a 2300 player in the beginning but then the next time playing he lost miserably. Relying too much on the ball to pop up or go straight to the net may take a toll on your total playing.

NextLevel
02-12-2017, 03:31 PM
I can also see some people who serve good normally do not receive and play rally well (I am one of them). The guy who uses this serve to beat me can easily beat all <2000 players in my club. He can have a good match with a 2300 player in the beginning but then the next time playing he lost miserably. Relying too much on the ball to pop up or go straight to the net may take a toll on your total playing.

Very true, but that can be fixed. People round out their games in different ways, time and ability permitting.

ttpshot
02-13-2017, 02:34 AM
I can also see some people who serve good normally do not receive and play rally well (I am one of them). The guy who uses this serve to beat me can easily beat all <2000 players in my club. He can have a good match with a 2300 player in the beginning but then the next time playing he lost miserably. Relying too much on the ball to pop up or go straight to the net may take a toll on your total playing.

I guess that's true in some way, Waldner was pretty bad at recieving(fantastic in rally though).
I think you get found out more by not having competant serves against higher level opponents. In fact, service is one of the primary factor for upsets. It's because better opponents have better shots hence have more chance of winnning the points in longer rallys.

NextLevel
02-13-2017, 03:03 AM
I guess that's true in some way, Waldner was pretty bad at recieving(fantastic in rally though).
I think you get found out more by not having competant serves against higher level opponents. In fact, service is one of the primary factor for upsets. It's because better opponents have better shots hence have more chance of winnning the points in longer rallys.

This is generally true but some better opponents are better because of serves. As someone who transformed from a rally player to a serve and attack player, I think that better serves made my level far more stable. I used to have lots of weird losses but after I got better serves, I stopped losing to players who were not clearly playing at my level.

vvk1
03-02-2017, 08:24 PM
A nice demonstration of jab service technique and variations by one of the top UK players and coach Craig Bryant:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF3JcAexa5g

tropical
03-02-2017, 10:25 PM
Craig's serve is not as deceptive as the Japanese in Ttpshot's video. I can tell his spin at least 90% what it is while I can't only guess 50% (pure chance) with the Japanese serve.

NextLevel
03-03-2017, 03:38 AM
You aren't where the receiver is so why are you expecting to be deceived?

vvk1
03-03-2017, 10:28 AM
Don't forget the video is from a training camp. The goal of the session was to demonstrate the different variants of the service, show how to achieve various spins, and how to add some deception. IMHO, he did it quite well.

vvk1
03-31-2017, 06:06 PM
And here is the player from the OP's tutorial video using the serve in a real tournament match. He is truly the master of deception. The opponent is no slouch in the serve department either though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gu9dhZ2Co4

tropical
03-31-2017, 06:17 PM
It is a very deceptive serve especially when it is fast like the Japanese player. Can you show in slow motion the racket position, location where the ball touches in top and under spins? I suspect the ball touches the racket in different places besides the ball contact points.

Suga D
04-01-2017, 01:51 PM
And here is the player from the OP's tutorial video using the serve in a real tournament match. He is truly the master of deception. The opponent is no slouch in the serve department either though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gu9dhZ2Co4

Wow.
[Emoji15]
Totally agree

suds79
04-01-2017, 02:30 PM
This is a really good video/thread. The quick hand motion fakes right after contact, yet still maintaining that good spin action is really impressive.

I find this serve hard to do with penhold. I know Wang Hao somewhat featured this serve during a good portion of his career. But since your hand/wrist is kinda following behind the plane of where you're swinging, I can't/or don't really use wrist to engage the backspin version.

side & top? Easy. Just give a good punching motion to the side. Side & a lot of back with penhold? A little harder for me. Still working on it.

Thanks for the video.

Richie
04-01-2017, 03:02 PM
This is a really good video/thread. The quick hand motion fakes right after contact, yet still maintaining that good spin action is really impressive.

I find this serve hard to do with penhold. I know Wang Hao somewhat featured this serve during a good portion of his career. But since your hand/wrist is kinda following behind the plane of where you're swinging, I can't/or don't really use wrist to engage the backspin version.

side & top? Easy. Just give a good punching motion to the side. Side & a lot of back with penhold? A little harder for me. Still working on it.

Thanks for the video.

I used to do this serve by punching into it using pretty much no wrist and it has been effective for me.. but then I met Craig Bryant a few weeks ago and asked him to do 10 minutes of serving with me and he had a look at my serve. The way he does it and the way the japanese guy is doing it is by doing both. Like ttpshot said in the initial post, he's uncocking the wrist for topspin and I reckon you get more spin plus more deception by doing it this way. However, it has to be done quickly and subtly with the added appropriate deceptive follow-through. I'm now trying to do it this way but it's a bit too obvious.

The video posted above shows this clearly at 1:09 and again at 1:32
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gu9dhZ2Co4


And trust me guys, Craigs serve is ridiculously deceptive and ridiculously spinny. He was also able to make the backspin variation look like it was going to kick by contacting it higher up. Once you know what cues to look for it gets easier, it's like magic until you know the "secret" ;).. still no easy task reading them you have to be 100% focused.

gmiller2233
04-02-2017, 10:20 PM
Great video! I love seeing the behind view. Very good for seeing variations and what his wrist release action looks like. Also liked seeing smalls things like body movements , and foot stomp etc from that view point. after seeing the first video this was a great follow up getting to see variations play out throughout a match.


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gmiller2233
04-19-2017, 07:47 PM
What's The Japanese gentleman's name I didn't see it listed except for maybe in Japanese in the video?


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gmiller2233
04-24-2017, 03:30 PM
Take a look at the Newly crowned Asian Champion Miu Hirano use of the jab/shovel serve in her championship game.


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gmiller2233
04-24-2017, 03:35 PM
https://youtu.be/0fbsRcVDpoc


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bobpuls
04-25-2017, 04:42 AM
https://youtu.be/0fbsRcVDpoc


This two looks sharper then most of European male pro players.
Nice

gmiller2233
05-09-2017, 06:10 PM
I've been messing with this serve and it's a really effective little serve with the different variations. I was wondering if any one else is getting a corkscrew type action when you vary the serve and cock or load the wrist like the first guy will do some times? It be honest I'm not sure what's going on sometime when you add the wrist load, but It seems like when you load the wrist on the take away if your wrist action on contact is more forward its side and if it's starting down, or diagonally down at contact i think it's corkscrew ish ?? Maybe I can shoot a short video tomorrow. Not sure to be honest but it seems to be an effective variation.
The variation I want is the no spin variation the first guy does off his straight back spin.

I see where Tenergy 05 did mention spin being on axis. I guess I'm wondering if others are getting this with the added wrist depending on contact.

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ttpshot
06-02-2017, 02:12 PM
Take a look at the Newly crowned Asian Champion Miu Hirano use of the jab/shovel serve in her championship game.


It's because Machida has been called into National Training center for 20~30 times to teach Hirano his serve.

sanavasaraja
06-03-2017, 07:23 AM
I'm currently slowly changing my main serve from pendulum variants to a serve I call the tomajab aka the one-inch-serve! It's a bit like the serve Craig Bryant demonstrates, only that it's even more tomahawky.

It started out by my usual serves not working too well anymore one day and fooling around with a very short jerky tomahawk. It wasn't meant for real, I thought I was just being silly, but once I incorporated a little body twist, hiding the racket/racket swing until point of contact, suddenly high ranked players (1.-3. league) started netting them if the execution was great and because they didn't know it yet.

Due to the motion being mostly hidden and the actual spin motion being extremely short - just an intense flick of the wrist - it seems to be really deceptive how much backspin there is. It even surprised myself since I thought it was more sidespin than backspin. The wrist seems to flick downwards heavily, which is really hard to see, while the body rotation and arm motion makes it seem like moderate sidespin with slight backspin.


TL;DR
I have trouble producing spin with the classic jab/shovel serve, but merging it with tomahawk has created a beast of a serve. It's definitely worth fooling around with these.

A lot of players this WTTC, especially women, seem to have these kinds of serves!

mmutas
01-17-2018, 11:11 PM
i dont want to kill the actual point but the serves in this video are all long serves. since we are trying to hide actual spin of the serve, we need small wrist movement. and if we want decent spin with small brush, we need to push the racket to ball more to make contact harder and that leads to a long serve.

and multiple usage of long serves are not good imo. the opponent can easily adapt to play offensive against your serve.

these are all my humble opinion, and it's my first message of mine in here TTD, hello all :)

Suga D
05-23-2019, 05:24 PM
Service tutorial video by one of the best server in Japan.
Will add the translation if anyone is interested.

1:15 For Topspin serve to look like backspin, the racket needs to start higher than the ball at the back swing. During the downward motion, cock the wrist to lower the racket head then uncock to impart topspin at the contact.

1:27 *Topspin disguised as backspin

1:53 Disguise it as backspin with scooping motion at the follow through.

2:23 *Backspin disguised as backspin

2:30 *Backspin disguised as topspin

2:41 For backspin server to look like topspin, start the racket from below the ball at the back swing. At the contact, cut the ball then have upwards follow through.

3:07 Vertical racket angle at the impact and swing from up to down.

3:13 As little downward follow through as possible to disguise it as topspin.

3:30 *Topspin disguised as topspin

3:52 Tactics: If the opponent swings hard, I tend to use topspin serve more. Vice versa for backspin serve.

4:19 *No spin

4:56 Tilt the racket forward so that the service looks like topspin.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6bKUkffiA0

Still one of the best demonstrations.
I think it deserves a resurrection.
;)