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EmRatThich
01-18-2017, 08:47 PM
I'm EmRatThich, a Vietnamese table tennis player. Now I live in France. With my friend (Chinese table tennis player), we have learned together some tips and Chinese philosophy about table tennis.

I would like to share some of these tips for beginner players who want to improve fast in table tennis. As I'm not a pro player, these tips may be not applicable to all of the level. If you are already at a very high level, you could find these tutorials not helpful, however, I think it would be useful for beginner and early intermediate player. In my previous videos, the quality of the coaching is not good enough (maybe too simplified or not new for some players). I'm trying to improve a lot to give better coaching video for many new players. Feel free to comment or criticism about the video or technical aspects.

My purpose is to help new player enjoy more table tennis, as I always say to my young players "In Spin We Trust" !
Hope you enjoy the coaching video. See you next Sunday.
Best regards,
EmRatThich

table tennis tutorial | most important tips (part 3)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSHQYbz6UBw

The first 2 key points of holding a table tennis racket have been explained in the previous video: Use the muscle group 2 to hold your racket, and a compact grip will increase the freedom of the wrist.

I will explain in this video the last key point in the "3 principles to have a good table tennis grip". This key point is the most important as it is the key of "explosiveness" in Chinese philosophy about table tennis stroke.


--------

The Cannon Forehand of Ma Long

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqLJNNU7ZfE

How to generate power loop against heavy backspin in table tennis. I will analyze the forehand topspin technique of Ma Long to loop kill the backspin ball from a chopper. For the underspin ball, you should attack it by using your forehand. Don't practice your backhand topspin against this ball.

Gjayesh
01-18-2017, 10:57 PM
I'm EmRatThich, vietnamese table tennis player. Now I live in France. With my friend (chinese table tennis player), we have learned together some tips and chinese philosophy about table tennis.

I would like to share some of these tips for beginner players who want to improve fast in table tennis. As I'm not a pro player, these tips may be not applicable to all of the level. If you are already at a very high level, you could find these tutorials not helpful, however I think it would be useful for beginner and early-intermediate player. In my previous videos, the quality of the coaching is not good enough (may be too simplified or not new for some players). I'm trying to improve a lot to give better coaching video for many new players. Feel free to comment or criticism about the video or technical aspects.

My purpose is to help new player enjoy more table tennis, as I always say to my young players "In Spin We Trust" !
Hope you enjoy the coaching video. See you next Sunday.
Best regards,
EmRatThich

table tennis tutorial | most important tips (part 3)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSHQYbz6UBw

The first 2 key points of holding a table tennis racket has been explained in the previous video: Use the muscle group 2 to hold your racket, and a compact grip will increase the freedom of the wrist.

I will explain in this video the last keypoint in the "3 principles to have a good table tennis grip". This keypoint is the most important as it is the key of "explosiveness" in Chinese philosophy about table tennis stroke.

Very good explaining


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

TTHopeful
01-18-2017, 11:10 PM
Welcome to TTD, your very unique! Nice video!

Musaab
01-20-2017, 01:22 PM
I like your videos man , that one on how to hold the blade really made a difference

Archosaurus
01-20-2017, 04:25 PM
Hey, it's nice to see you here. Your English has got a little better.


I think you should give us video of yourself playing, then we will better know where you are coming from. It's important for the player to trust their coach.

Gjayesh
01-20-2017, 11:28 PM
Hey, it's nice to see you here. Your English has got a little better.


I think you should give us video of yourself playing, then we will better know where you are coming from. It's important for the player to trust their coach.

Imagine just without videos we like your genuine tips on upgrading our level
When u show us more videos of yourself
We may even try to compete china provincial players cheers !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

septyan toni
01-20-2017, 11:55 PM
hey,,,coach emrathThich...nice to meet you in this forum...i just want to thank you for your last ping sunday video,that's very important for me..once again thank u coach

Sent from my EVERCOSS-A75L using Tapatalk

UpSideDownCarl
01-21-2017, 01:12 AM
Hey, EmRatThich, I wanted to know a few things:

1) Who is the cute woman in the photo you use on YouTube, FaceBook and even here on TableTennisDaily?

2) If you are Vietnamese and you live in France, where did you get your information on Chinese techniques?

This information on how to grip is very good. I have been shown it by several coaches, at least 7 different coaches in NYC have showed me that. And it works very well.

On TableTennisDaily, if you read through, you will also see members like Der_Echte talking about how to adjust grip pressure for creating different amounts of spin. Or NextLevel who will talk about the whip mechanics you can achieve from starting with a lose grip.

It would be really fun to see video footage of you playing and demonstrating some of the principles you talk about.

UpSideDownCarl
01-21-2017, 01:17 AM
The first coach I heard talk about this principle of keeping relaxed, using your index finger and thumb to hold, and increasing pressure on contact was Robert Chen. He also talked about using the index finger and thumb to help you feel the ball better and to improve your touch. That was over 7 years ago. But I also have heard this information from Michael Landers, Mark Croitoroo, Jennifer Wu (Wu Yue), Edmund Suen, Damien Provost and Matthew Khan. So it seems like it is a pretty widely known principle.

countrybread
01-23-2017, 03:24 AM
emratthich

I really liked your latest video. It was the most informative and detailed video I have seen that is specific to penhold, in English. Very, very few people bother to throw us penholders a bone, especially translated in a way that is easy to understand and interesting. Its one of the reasons I decided to try shakehand for the time being. Penhold just didn't seem worth it anymore. So thanks again for your work. Great job.

stephan76
01-23-2017, 05:59 AM
it´s very interesting. thank you. hope to see more from you

EmRatThich
01-23-2017, 09:12 AM
The first coach I heard talk about this principle of keeping relaxed, using your index finger and thumb to hold, and increasing pressure on contact was Robert Chen. He also talked about using the index finger and thumb to help you feel the ball better and to improve your touch. That was over 7 years ago. But I also have heard this information from Michael Landers, Mark Croitoroo, Jennifer Wu (Wu Yue), Edmund Suen, Damien Provost and Matthew Khan. So it seems like it is a pretty widely known principle.

Hi Carls,

You are right that these principles are not news for the pro players. I didn't say it is new in my tutorial video.
I focus mainly on the new players or players who don't have the opportunity to have a good table tennis coach.
So you can find some of the informations in my videos are not useful as you already know it. The coaching can't be perfect for all levels.

Bests,

EmRatThich
01-23-2017, 09:15 AM
As promised, this is the tutorials for the penholders. :) I think this video would help you to improve your Reverse Penhold Backhand (RPB). We are learning the penhold grip from Xu Xin, Wang Hao, Ma Lin and others.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3E5uF97NtA

suds79
01-23-2017, 01:29 PM
It would be really fun to see video footage of you playing and demonstrating some of the principles you talk about.

I am 99.9% sure this will never, ever happen.

TTFrenzy
01-23-2017, 03:00 PM
Guys why should he provide a video of himself, knowing the basics of TT and teaching them is a different situation than executing them . If you knowledge level is 10/10 and your execution level is 3/10 this does not mean that you are not a good coach

All greek coaches were and are crappy players yet they led kreanga tsioka gionis and now sgouropoulos to their success. LGL was a pathetic rally player, yet he understands (mentally not physically) how to play a rally and teach it to others.

Anyway I kinda understand the whole video thing because I myself saw many "experts" on TT sites but I guess in the end everyone on the net is free to say what they want and "anonymity" sometimes has negative effects on others.

In the end, one who wants to improve, wont achieve much by reading forums or watching videos, you can get many ideas that's for sure an amazing thing but training with quality is a whole different animal
Cheers :P

Archosaurus
01-23-2017, 03:19 PM
@TTFrenzy

I would have to disagree.

There's a difference between concrete, real knowledge, and abstract knowledge. Even LGL with his "pathetic" rally skills knows a hell of a lot about rallying and he can perform it at a very high level as well. He doesn't have 3/10 execution.

Let's take economy and business as an example:

Who would you trust more:

Someone who has read a lot of books on economy and business but has never done a proper deal in their life, or

Someone who hasn't read quite as much and doesn't know as much abstract theory but has put themselves out into the market with consumers who can say no, and done actual deals?

EmRat doesn't seem to be saying anything completely wrong and he can probably play at an okay beginner-intermediate level, but he has zero credibility IMO. We do not know anything about his game, and how he can apply his own advice, and where he got it from.


@EmRatThich

Carl was giving you a compliment: the things you've said are what many high level players have said. It was not a criticism.

Suga D
01-23-2017, 03:49 PM
@TTFrenzy

I would have to disagree.

There's a difference between concrete, real knowledge, and abstract knowledge. Even LGL with his "pathetic" rally skills knows a hell of a lot about rallying and he can perform it at a very high level as well. He doesn't have 3/10 execution.

Let's take economy and business as an example:

Who would you trust more:

Someone who has read a lot of books on economy and business but has never done a proper deal in their life, or

Someone who hasn't read quite as much and doesn't know as much abstract theory but has put themselves out into the market with consumers who can say no, and done actual deals?

EmRat doesn't seem to be saying anything completely wrong and he can probably play at an okay beginner-intermediate level, but he has zero credibility IMO. We do not know anything about his game, and how he can apply his own advice, and where he got it from.


...says the dude who never had some real coaching in his life. Man, your parroting of NL is so lame!
[Emoji23]
I totally agree with TTFrenzy here.
There are so many coaches out there that are playing much worse than their students. Shall they all stop coaching and rather listen to "Arch´s ridiculous recommendations" ??
[Emoji23]
I believe German U21 Headcoach Helmut Hampl gets beaten on a regular by his students!
My uncle taught me that a good coach makes his students better than him. Just think about it!

I´m just glad that there are some people out there, that can value FREE ONLINE COACHING vids more than this kid who actually never had any coaching yet!

@EmRat Thich: thanks for sharing. Please keep ´em coming and don´t watch these haters and their hateful speeches!

Richie
01-23-2017, 04:06 PM
All you need to do really if you don't trust the credibility of that person or know their skill level is to take what they're saying with a pinch of salt. You can also compare to what other coaches have said e.g. the thumb and index finger tip seems to be a good one as many others have said the same and they seem to improve or get results from it.

You can also just try it out.. and if it works for you and improves your game then keep doing it, if not then don't. Just because every single detail this guy or whoever else says isn't correct it doesn't mean all their advice is bad. You still need to be critical and this applies to everyone really, even top coaches as some of the ways they teach things might not apply to all people.

The more info you have about the coach the better though, which is why it's good that carl for example asks that second question. There's no need to sway to either extremes, learn from everyone but think critically and be selective and test things out for yourself so you know that the stuff you're learning works for you. Application and learning from it is what it's all about, in my opinion.

suds79
01-23-2017, 04:14 PM
There are so many coaches out there that are playing much worse than their students. Shall they all stop coaching and rather listen to "Arch´s ridiculous recommendations" ??

I believe German U21 Headcoach Helmut Hampl gets beaten on a regular by his students!

Yeah I just disagree. Do have coaches have players who are playing at a higher level than they are? Yes. Of Course. They're putting the time into their own game where as the coaches goal is to not focus on their skills but the players. I think that much we can agree on.

But how did those coaches get those positions in the first place? Because they have played before. Because they physically know what they're talking about.

It simply adds credibility if the person teaching you something you know has experience in what they're talking about. That will always be the case. I could read you some fundamentals I've looked up on playing hockey if you like. Every thing I would tell you would be fundamentally sound. But you should know I've never played it a day in my life. How could you take me seriously?

Nobody is saying this guy has to be Ma Long. Shoot even if he was simply average and said "this works for me" along with this fundamentals, I would respect it. A great deal actually. It takes balls to put yourself out there.

I would just like to know we don't have USATT 1100 here "coaching" us. I don't think asking for a little validation is being unreasonable. But the more & more videos come without it pretty much tells me everything I need to know.

Musaab
01-23-2017, 04:15 PM
I just find it absurd that we judge someone we didn't see play (even if his videos are useful, according to many). And in the same time we take someone who we saw play, like NL, a good amateur player whom I could find dozen players better than him only in my club, as a REFERENCE.

suds79
01-23-2017, 04:17 PM
I just find it absurd that we judge someone we didn't see play (even if his videos are useful, according to many). And in the same time we take someone who we saw play, like NL, a good amateur player whom I could find dozen players better than him only in my club, as a REFERENCE.

But at least we know where NL is at. You know he plays. You know he practices. If someone is one of those dozen players better than him, you can take his teachings for what it's worth.

At least he's being completely transparent.

Archosaurus
01-23-2017, 04:20 PM
@Suga D

I'm not hating at all. I watch all of EmRat's videos and I'd rather he keeps posting them. I was really surprised when I saw him here and I welcome him.

You don't need to attribute negative things to me whenever I disagree with you. I just want EmRat to post some video of himself, so we can be sure that he has an idea what he's talking about.




I just don't understand how someone could have very low ability in what they're teaching but still be adept at it. How do they know what to teach and how?

I don't mean the 60-some year old coach who used to be in top shape and a stellar performer and is now not nearly as good as their students but has good knowledge from experience: I mean someone with truly 3/10 ability and a lot of theory in their head.



And please, stop the plagiarism accusations. I don't even know what NL really thinks about all this. All I know is that he also prefers that people post video to demonstrate their ability, so we know where they're coming from.

EDIT:

Wow, even the forum software is NL-biased. He literally has more value than a single user apparently. :rolleyes:

11875

Musaab
01-23-2017, 04:26 PM
I would rather take advices from an anonymous coach if his videos did help me than taking advices from a mediocre player that happens to be more passionate about the sport than me.

Ilia Minkin
01-23-2017, 04:36 PM
You can also just try it out.. and if it works for you and improves your game then keep doing it, if not then don't. Just because every single detail this guy or whoever else says isn't correct it doesn't mean all their advice is bad. You still need to be critical and this applies to everyone really, even top coaches as some of the ways they teach things might not apply to all people.


The problem is that when one tries to incorporate something in their game and/or change technique, the positive effect appears after at least several months of dedicated training at best, if they did everything right. Moreover, proper technique may feel awkward at first but yield results in the long run. So it is very difficult to judge whether things will work out. Therefore, it is too dangerous to try some random "advice" on the internet and stick with it -- it may result in new bad habits and lost time and effort.

Richie
01-23-2017, 04:41 PM
The problem is that when one tries to incorporate something in their game and/or change technique, the positive effect appears after at least several months of dedicated training at best, if they did everything right. Moreover, proper technique may feel awkward at first but yield results in the long run. Therefore, it is too dangerous to try some random "advice" on the internet and stick with it -- it may result in new bad habits and lost time and effort.

This really depends on the person, what level they are at and what changes are being made. I agree but as I said if you're critical about what you choose to apply then you won't be making this mistake.

NextLevel
01-23-2017, 04:50 PM
A lot of people are speaking past each other here.

I watch a lot of EmRatThich's stuff. Some of it is good stuff, most of it is good marketing. Plenty of it is stuff that when I see it, I can place it in context, but I still sometimes wonder about the level of the player and the experience of the coach.

The labelling of what he says as "Chinese Secrets" is marketing - I can live with that.

His first video on Chinese blades/equipment vs. European blades/equipment came across as extremely fishy, given that Zhang Jike uses a Viscaria and Alexander Shibaev uses a Korbel. OF course, there are Chinese players who use wooden blades and Europeans who use composites so the point is not to get semantic. But the point is that beyond the marketing, I didn't like the stereotypical nature of some of the claims.

There was also a recent video where to illustrate the differences between European (or old or whatever) looping philosophy and Chinese looping philosophy, he used video of a player I have never heard of and compared it to top Chinese players. Again, good marketing, but dubious approach to the issue. While the Chinese have issues with the technique of many top European or Japanese players, these issues are far more subtle than the caricature that I was seeing in the video.

Carl's point is that a lot of "Chinese secrets" are part of standard European teaching. This of course makes sense as many top Chinese players went to Europe to build their games and bring ideas back to China (Wang Liqin and Kong Linghui being the most notable)! And of course, many of the top European players trained in China at some point in their lives so none of their games is purely Chinese or European.

There was an article I read recently on coaching vs. playing and I think it was about soccer or tennis or some other sport. Of course good coaches don't have to be great players. But good coaches have to demonstrate some ability to understand the level they are communicating to or show some experience of having coached players to that level. I am still paying my dues as a coach. I think most of the people here that I give advice to know my audience and I do not pretend to go around coaching 2200 players. And there is a specific reason why I even coach as I have explained before - I did most of my learning and training at the age of 34 with autoimmune joint disorders so I tend to remember the things I learned to get better and communicate them more easily than someone who got good at a young age and doesn't know how or why he got good in relative terms. Most coaches will simply train you how they were trained, and very few have experience dealing with adult learners in a way that specifically addresses the adult's needs. I worked with a coach who trained 2 adults to over 2000 USATT and has another two on the way - he got to his best level mostly learning as an adult. I also worked with an international coach who worked with amateurs in Australia as well as the Australian national team and who coached and played in Europe. So it is my understanding of those ideas I share with people from the perspective of someone who dealt with the issues adults face trying to improve. Some of my stuff is not even agreeable to a serious player. But it is the way I see it.

I have seen interesting stuff in EmratThich's videos. But I think that in general, people should be fairly transparent about who they are or their level of play when presenting or making claims on the internet. This helps us place things in context. We are not trying to be pros, so a lot of stuff is context specific. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing because of context.

Suga D
01-23-2017, 04:50 PM
@Suga D

You don't need to attribute negative things to me whenever I disagree with you. I just want EmRat to post some video of himself, so we can be sure that he has an idea what he's talking about.




I just don't understand how someone could have very low ability in what they're teaching but still be adept at it. How do they know what to teach and how?

I don't mean the 60-some year old coach who used to be in top shape and a stellar performer and is now not nearly as good as their students but has good knowledge from experience: I mean someone with truly 3/10 ability and a lot of theory in their head.



Hahahaaa. Sometimes one can see quite good if a person knows what he's talking of or if he is just fooling around.

The real interesting thing is that especially you with your heap of uploaded vids is asking for a vid.
That sort of makes you look like someone's little puppy.
I don't have to attribute those things to you. You keep doing that all by yourself...
[Emoji6]

Even though i get what you're saying and what NL has been elaborating on above.
It makes sense in a way, but on the other hand in Germany to be able to get a certain coaching license degree you have to play at a certain level and for the highest license you would have to be playing on a real good level and a federation like HTTV for instance has to agree to this and make a suggestion to the DTTB as well.



And please, stop the plagiarism accusations. I don't even know what NL really thinks about all this. All I know is that he also prefers that people post video to demonstrate their ability, so we know where they're coming from.

EDIT:

Wow, even the forum software is NL-biased. He literally has more value than a single user apparently.

Aww, c'mon Arch, i remember a guy who kept elaborating about whip-mechanics on the day he first time heard that word related to TT. Do i need to say more?
[Emoji6]

Anyhow, i wasn't trying to make you look stupid, but rather was trying for myself to classify the value of your post.

But i find it totally ironic that it's you who's been asking for a vid.
:)

[EDIT: sorry Buddy, but you've pushed one of my buttons and i really had a frigging hard monday.]

NextLevel
01-23-2017, 05:02 PM
I would rather take advices from an anonymous coach if his videos did help me than taking advices from a mediocre player that happens to be more passionate about the sport than me.

How do you know they are not one and the same when you have never seen the player play? There is one player who is a respected internet coach who I personally know whose highest official tournament level is USATT 1500. He has trained a 2100 player and still does. People love his internet posts. I find them to be misleading but helpful. But he could easily write the same stuff that EmratThich is writing. That is what he does.

Musaab
01-23-2017, 05:36 PM
How do you know they are not one and the same when you have never seen the player play? There is one player who is a respected internet coach who I personally know whose highest official tournament level is USATT 1500. He has trained a 2100 player and still does. People love his internet posts. I find them to be misleading but helpful. But he could easily write the same stuff that EmratThich is writing. That is what he does.
I've seen you play and from what I saw + your passion about the sport I guess your advices are to be considered. But thats it, I don't think you have the right nor the level to be judging other people stuff. I know for a fact that the guy takes some time to edit these videos and many of them helped me one way or another.

UpSideDownCarl
01-23-2017, 05:36 PM
I don't think there is any need to judge anyone. I know this guy who was in his 70s last time I saw him. He can't play great. He is pretty old. He can't move well. But he can coach. He coaches great. Even though, a lot of the time when he is coaching, he is sitting and watching and making corrections to both players as he sets up training drills. And if you watch him coach, you can tell he is a decent level coach. And when the students don't get a principle and he gets up and demonstrates, you instantly know he knows what he is doing even though he can barely walk.

I would love to see video of EmRatThich doing what he does best. No need to judge or disrespect. Everything I have heard from him is solid info. I just see he always uses top level players to demonstrate his info. And I would love to see him coaching and his students learning in action.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Suga D
01-23-2017, 05:39 PM
How do you know they are not one and the same when you have never seen the player play?

Probably for the same reasons why we keep detecting Sebas' his different appearances.
[Emoji6]
But certainly you're right, there is no 100% guarantee, someone even could be just uploading some vids from a random player and pretend it's him...
[Emoji6]

NextLevel
01-23-2017, 05:46 PM
I've seen you play and from what I saw + your passion about the sport I guess your advices are to be considered. But thats it, I don't think you have the right nor the level to be judging other people stuff. I know for a fact that the guy takes some time to edit these videos and many of them helped me one way or another.

I know you don't but a national level coach encourages me to coach and monitored my work both online and when he was in the USA. I think you know whose opinion I will take on this issue. Thanks.

He doesn't agree with everything I say but he finds what I do good enough not to find it misleading and believes I provide something of value to many amateurs. Coaches pay their dues. I am paying mine.

SchemeSC
01-23-2017, 05:58 PM
I've seen you play and from what I saw + your passion about the sport I guess your advices are to be considered. But thats it, I don't think you have the right nor the level to be judging other people stuff. I know for a fact that the guy takes some time to edit these videos and many of them helped me one way or another.

Glad to hear that his videos helped you. But you also need to understand that while his videos might have helped YOU, the advice that he is presenting can be dangerous for lower level players. Let me give you a specific example:

I have always swung the racket with a very tense arm, even though I thought I was relaxed enough. So, the first time I read that you were supposed to tighten the grip pressure at impact (as EmRat suggests in the video), my swing went from a little too tense to extremely tense. I was convinced that tightening up at impact was an important factor in a good forehand loop, when in reality what I needed to do was relax more at impact.

Now, the target audience for EmRat's videos are Youtube users. How many Youtube users do you think have awkward, tense swings versus relaxed swings with good whip mechanics? How many Youtube users will really benefit from his advice to increase the grip pressure at impact? A very, very small percentage in my opinion.

TTFrenzy
01-23-2017, 06:00 PM
Archosaurus points out the psychological factor all though he misunderstood what I was saying. I didnt evaluate LGL with 3/10 that was just an example, LGL himself said that he was poor in his rallying abilities but compensated with his serve receive, the opposite was kong linghui, simple serves but fantastic at rallies.

Yes credibility does matter to the point that you have proven or not yourself. but this does not take away the utility of a good advice no matter the credits of the coach.

I have experienced this myself, advising a team mate "dude you are too tense and impatient with your strokes" he didnt pay much attention. Then our provincial/national coach came by and told him the same thing with different words and he listened to him like a small child pays attention to the "godlike" teacher feeding him with expert advice.

I was annoyed but I understood the situation, before that I misunderstood my mate's character as "stubborn".

If carl or nextlevel or anyone in here gives advice to 100 players and then the same advice is given by LGL,rosskopf,tony,matt hetherington or whatever coach with credits then most likely, a much higher percentage of players will follow the advice of the credited coach although its the exact same thing!

TTFrenzy
01-23-2017, 06:09 PM
@TTFrenzy

I would have to disagree.

There's a difference between concrete, real knowledge, and abstract knowledge. Even LGL with his "pathetic" rally skills knows a hell of a lot about rallying and he can perform it at a very high level as well. He doesn't have 3/10 execution.

Let's take economy and business as an example:

Who would you trust more:

Someone who has read a lot of books on economy and business but has never done a proper deal in their life, or

Someone who hasn't read quite as much and doesn't know as much abstract theory but has put themselves out into the market with consumers who can say no, and done actual deals?

EmRat doesn't seem to be saying anything completely wrong and he can probably play at an okay beginner-intermediate level, but he has zero credibility IMO. We do not know anything about his game, and how he can apply his own advice, and where he got it from.


@EmRatThich

Carl was giving you a compliment: the things you've said are what many high level players have said. It was not a criticism.

His advices are good for beginners, that's all there is too it, if he cant apply them himself and simply copied other coaches/articles does not affect the utility of his videos. For all I know he maybe doing it for clickbaiting, his titles are misleading sometimes, this does not mean his analysis is not worthy. on the contrary

Musaab
01-23-2017, 06:22 PM
I know you don't but a national level coach encourages me to coach and monitored my work both online and when he was in the USA. I think you know whose opinion I will take on this issue. Thanks.

He doesn't agree with everything I say but he finds what I do good enough not to find it misleading and believes I provide something of value to many amateurs. Coaches pay their dues. I am paying mine.

Guess what ? I think that too. I watched many videos of you and that coach already. My point here is that others can give value too. I personally watch videos and then see by myself if what has been said changed anything in my training, may be not all what he says is correct, but some of it is indeed useful.

suds79
01-23-2017, 06:26 PM
Can we please keep this thread relevant to EmRatThich?

Musaab, any points you made on this thread becoming less relevant with each post. You don't like NL. We get it.
#MoveItAlong

Musaab
01-23-2017, 06:27 PM
Glad to hear that his videos helped you. But you also need to understand that while his videos might have helped YOU, the advice that he is presenting can be dangerous for lower level players. Let me give you a specific example:

I have always swung the racket with a very tense arm, even though I thought I was relaxed enough. So, the first time I read that you were supposed to tighten the grip pressure at impact (as EmRat suggests in the video), my swing went from a little too tense to extremely tense. I was convinced that tightening up at impact was an important factor in a good forehand loop, when in reality what I needed to do was relax more at impact.

Now, the target audience for EmRat's videos are Youtube users. How many Youtube users do you think have awkward, tense swings versus relaxed swings with good whip mechanics? How many Youtube users will really benefit from his advice to increase the grip pressure at impact? A very, very small percentage in my opinion.

That should be enough if he is satisfied,others who couldn't find it useful are not forced to keep watching.

suds79
01-23-2017, 06:34 PM
A picture perfect depiction of what's going on here if you ask me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgX7i0C-IK4&list=PL1BFF58FF37246D71

But Musaab is right. Nobody has to keep watching. I stopped some time ago... Just calling BS when I smell it.

NextLevel
01-23-2017, 06:36 PM
Guess what ? I think that too. I watched many videos of you and that coach already. My point here is that others can give value too. I personally watch videos and then see by myself if what has been said changed anything in my training, may be not all what he says is correct, but some of it is indeed useful.

Musaab, what is your playing level? You have written a lot of stuff about me and my qualifications based in my videos. I am interested in your qualifications since you claim that I am obviously not qualified to judge someone even though I gave specific examples of what he said that was dubious and lead one to question his credibility. Maybe your sharing your playing level will help put everything into perspective. Thanks. I find that when people share their playing level and evidence of it, they tend to be far less rude.

NextLevel
01-23-2017, 06:47 PM
Archosaurus points out the psychological factor all though he misunderstood what I was saying. I didnt evaluate LGL with 3/10 that was just an example, LGL himself said that he was poor in his rallying abilities but compensated with his serve receive, the opposite was kong linghui, simple serves but fantastic at rallies.

Yes credibility does matter to the point that you have proven or not yourself. but this does not take away the utility of a good advice no matter the credits of the coach.

I have experienced this myself, advising a team mate "dude you are too tense and impatient with your strokes" he didnt pay much attention. Then our provincial/national coach came by and told him the same thing with different words and he listened to him like a small child pays attention to the "godlike" teacher feeding him with expert advice.

I was annoyed but I understood the situation, before that I misunderstood my mate's character as "stubborn".

If carl or nextlevel or anyone in here gives advice to 100 players and then the same advice is given by LGL,rosskopf,tony,matt hetherington or whatever coach with credits then most likely, a much higher percentage of players will follow the advice of the credited coach although its the exact same thing!

That is true but since a player left his 2500 level coach to work with me, I can tell you that what serious adults seek when it comes to table tennis improvement is effective and understandable coaching. That is not always about playing level, it is about relating to what the player is experiencing. And if someone started playing seriously at a later age in life, unless Rosskopf has spent a significant amount of time coaching someone like that, and he may or may not have, he may not be able to relate to that person like I can. It might sound crazy but it is true.

A time may come when the student leaves me to work with someone else. That is good too. The student may then have learned enough that he can now build a bridge to advanced coaching advice. Right now, after working with my coaches, I can interprete a lot of table tennis intelligently. Many so called high level coaches are really high level glorified trainers. Coaching is not just about displaying good technique, it is about working with the student to get an effective solution to their problems with their constraints and limitations. It's easy to just do drills you did as a kid, explaining the logic is what makes coaching adults hard.

RidTheKid
01-23-2017, 07:05 PM
It's certainly good that EmRat uses top players to demonstrate - they have best technique and that serves as a template for how to perform the strokes etc. And you can be sure that trying to emulate the best at least gets you in the right direction. I'm not interested in watching players who are worse than me, that is not a good source for improvement. It's more efficient to show what's correct instead of what's incorrect.


I don't think there is any need to judge anyone. I know this guy who was in his 70s last time I saw him. He can't play great. He is pretty old. He can't move well. But he can coach. He coaches great. Even though, a lot of the time when he is coaching, he is sitting and watching and making corrections to both players as he sets up training drills. And if you watch him coach, you can tell he is a decent level coach. And when the students don't get a principle and he gets up and demonstrates, you instantly know he knows what he is doing even though he can barely walk.

I would love to see video of EmRatThich doing what he does best. No need to judge or disrespect. Everything I have heard from him is solid info. I just see he always uses top level players to demonstrate his info. And I would love to see him coaching and his students learning in action.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Suga D
01-23-2017, 07:06 PM
The problem is that when one tries to incorporate something in their game and/or change technique, the positive effect appears after at least several months of dedicated training at best, if they did everything right. Moreover, proper technique may feel awkward at first but yield results in the long run. So it is very difficult to judge whether things will work out. Therefore, it is too dangerous to try some random "advice" on the internet and stick with it -- it may result in new bad habits and lost time and effort.

I do get your point, Ilia, it's much more difficult to get rid of bad habits than doing things proper from the start.
But developing bad habits could happen also in real life with a coach, 'cause not everyone responds to given advice in the same way. Everybody has his own interpretation of reality and i guess that is also a reason why a well known coach like Greg Letts a.k.a. DTopSpirit wrote something like this here not too long ago.



Bottom line 2: Over the years I have learnt that a lot of table tennis advice should be prefaced with the term - "It depends on...". The same tip can be good, neutral or terrible depending on the circumstances of the player receiving the tip. I see a lot more grey and a lot less black and white in this regard these days.

So if an advice is helpful to someone, then who am i to judge about this.

But that being said, in times with all kind of internet frauds i believe it's crucial to question things and have as much transparency as possible.

Musaab
01-23-2017, 07:07 PM
Musaab, what is your playing level? You have written a lot of stuff about me and my qualifications based in my videos. I am interested in your qualifications since you claim that I am obviously not qualified to judge someone even though I gave specific examples of what he said that was dubious and lead one to question his credibility. Maybe your sharing your playing level will help put everything into perspective. Thanks. I find that when people share their playing level and evidence of it, they tend to be far less rude.

I'm not trying to be rude but feel free to think so. I'm humble enough to say that I'm definitely a beginner, Actually I only started like last year or little more. I'm not claiming any experience or playing better than anyone. However, I have been to enough tournaments of all levels, just few weeks ago I've been to a Pro match where I got the chance to see Liam, Kreanga Chen Chien An. My club has players from regional till national levels. No need to mention youtube videos (including yours). It is not that hard to tell from a video if someone is good or not. Anyway, I would be happy if this guy continues his videos that I like, and you may keep doing what you do, best of luck you BOTH.

RidTheKid
01-23-2017, 07:09 PM
And in case you forgot. One can be a terrible player in sports and still become a good (great) coach - think of José Mourinho. He's not the unbeatable coach from a few years back but you get the idea.

NextLevel
01-23-2017, 07:12 PM
I'm not trying to be rude but feel free to think so. I'm humble enough to say that I'm definitely a beginner, Actually I only started like last year or little more. I'm not claiming any experience or playing better than anyone. However, I have been to enough tournaments of all levels, just few weeks ago I've been to a Pro match where I got the chance to see Liam, Kreanga Chen Chien An. My club has players from regional till national levels. No need to mention youtube videos (including yours). It is not that hard to tell from a video if someone is good or not. Anyway, I would be happy if this guy continues his videos that I like, and you may keep doing what you do, best of luck you BOTH.

It's much harder than you think to tell from a video whether a guy is good or not. If you have truly only been playing a year, be a little more humble until you actually have played enough to understand why those of us who do not know EmratThich are suspicious. I suspect you may actually know him which is why you defend him.

NextLevel
01-23-2017, 07:18 PM
It's certainly good that EmRat uses top players to demonstrate - they have best technique and that serves as a template for how to perform the strokes etc. And you can be sure that trying to emulate the best at least gets you in the right direction. I'm not interested in watching players who are worse than me, that is not a good source for improvement. It's more efficient to show what's correct instead of what's incorrect.

Top players are good models for people who know what they are doing. You would learn much more if you saw what these top players were doing when they were at your stage of playing and knowing its relevance to your game. What they do now is the end of a process and it is more important for you to participate in that process rather than to pretend to be enlightened by the finished result. Pretending that table tennis is about what you can see is a dangerous exercise, you only see the iceberg of the finished product which floats above the water. The stuff underneath which is the process that built the player is much larger. Many misconceptions in TT come from failing to separate or integrate the process and the results properly.

Musaab
01-23-2017, 07:18 PM
It's much harder than you think to tell from a video whether a guy is good or not. If you have truly only been playing a year, be a little more humble until you actually have played enough to understand why those of us who do not know EmratThich are suspicious. I suspect you may actually know him which is why you defend him.

I truly don't, but that bit of a advice on what I thought a simple issue like "how to hold the blade", and the demonstration that goes with it to see that you can better rotate your wriste holding the blade the way he described, and most importantly the change I observed the next day in my training. this giv'em some credit already

NextLevel
01-23-2017, 07:22 PM
I truly don't, but that bit of a advice on what I thought a simple issue like "how to hold the blade", and the demonstration that goes with it to see that you can better rotate your wriste holding the blade the way he described, and most importantly the change I observed the next day in my training. this giv'em some credit already

That was a good video but there is really much more to it than that. But you have to have the experience to know that, and I think you could arrive at the same result if you watched Brett's video on advanced mechanics and grip tension.

RidTheKid
01-23-2017, 07:42 PM
I can understand what you're saying but don't fully agree. One should never solely build his whole game around watching videos, and I don't think that is what anyone is referring to either, the thing is to take a few pointers like how to hold the bat (for those who don't know) or how to put the legs and hip into the stroke and then go and try it yourself and make it part of YOUR game. I've always produced plenty of power and used a bit of legs and hips when doing the strokes but now more than ever and I hit clearly harder and spinnier than before after adjusting. Bulding stronger legs and body as a whole has helped as well.


Top players are good models for people who know what they are doing. You would learn much more if you saw what these top players were doing when they were at your stage of playing and knowing its relevance to your game. What they do now is the end of a process and it is more important for you to participate in that process rather than to pretend to be enlightened by the finished result. Pretending that table tennis is about what you can see is a dangerous exercise, you only see the iceberg of the finished product which floats above the water. The stuff underneath which is the process that built the player is much larger. Many misconceptions in TT come from failing to separate or integrate the process and the results properly.

Archosaurus
01-23-2017, 07:49 PM
@RidTheKid

So you've produced a good percentage of your maximum power already, and by applying tips from a video, you've increased it noticeably more from there?


We're gonna need some playing level proof for this one. Otherwise you're just talking silly things.

RidTheKid
01-23-2017, 08:07 PM
Who knows what the maximum is? And while I have power I need to polish on consistency. I'm no pro but I played lots of TT 25-ish years ago and picked it up again more conciously about a year ago. I practice with buddies in a div 3 and 6 team here and play at work every day so I'd say I know how to hit the ball. What I lack mostly is what every one does that doesn't compete regularly - serves and receiving to kill the ball.

I need to produce a video for you to feel better? Well, that is really not of my concern. I have my playing pals to help me out, thanks anyway.


@RidTheKid

So you've produced a good percentage of your maximum power already, and by applying tips from a video, you've increased it noticeably more from there?


We're gonna need some playing level proof for this one. Otherwise you're just talking silly things.

NextLevel
01-23-2017, 08:28 PM
I can understand what you're saying but don't fully agree. One should never solely build his whole game around watching videos, and I don't think that is what anyone is referring to either, the thing is to take a few pointers like how to hold the bat (for those who don't know) or how to put the legs and hip into the stroke and then go and try it yourself and make it part of YOUR game. I've always produced plenty of power and used a bit of legs and hips when doing the strokes but now more than ever and I hit clearly harder and spinnier than before after adjusting. Bulding stronger legs and body as a whole has helped as well.

First of all, a lot of the backlash Emrathich is getting is from calling these things Chinese secrets, If you look at any top pro, they are hitting the ball with their core, not just the Chinese. In fact, the Chinese will tell you that they learned such "secrets" from watching Ogimura, the great Japanese champ of the early inverted days. But I have said that I accepted it as marketing, even if it is dubious to put it that way.

The other thing is that some of these things are not going to work for everyone and it helps to understand who the coach is really speaking to and why. Gripping your finger with the two main fingers is often preached but is hardly the truth. There are coaches who preach using the lower three fingers and that has its important uses as well depending on the stroke and how you hold the paddle.

UpSideDownCarl
01-23-2017, 09:54 PM
NextLevel has presented some really valuable info. One thing I will say about NextLevel is, until I played against him, I never really knew how good he actually is. It is hard to tell from video. But when you hit with him and train, or play matches with him and get into it you realize there is more than meets the eye to what he is doing. He has also explained the context within which his coaching has value. Not many people know how to work with adults and help them improve at this sport.

There are many things I have heard from EmRatThich that are decent pieces of information. Sorry Archo, he is different than you. My suggestion to you would be to stop arguing because you are only making yourself look bad.

However, what NextLevel has said about the false distinctions and the setting up of a false dichotomy--Chinese Secrets=Good, Europeans and others=THE WRONG WAY--does make me question a Vietnamese man who lives in France and his motives for presenting that he is a coach who has the Chinese secrets.

But NextLevel brought up something hugely valuable: CONTEXT FOR INFORMATION.

A coach who is telling a player whose arm IS relaxed, to relax his arm is giving information that is beside the point because it is already happening.

A coach who tells a student to turn his hips on an FH when the student is already doing it, but isn't doing something else may not be seeing the student and may just be parroting information.

When I used to teach yoga teachers how to teach I used to explain what I think teaching is:

Teaching is a problem solving issue around a subject. You have a person who doesn't understand something, and the problem solving is a process of figuring out what exercises or information will help that specific person go from not understanding to understanding.

A lot of how many people think of learning is as an intellectual process. But with something like TT, you can understand something very well and yet, you are still not able to do it. So, for physical learning, it is more than that. And a person who is able to take someone from not being able to loop, to being able to loop, could be good at coaching that and maybe not so good as a coach overall.

There may be other people who are good at coaching very high level players and not as good at coaching fundamentals to someone newer to TT. There are many versions of good coaching. In some fields what I am talking about could be called specializing. One coach good at teaching fundamental techniques; another coach good at teaching game skills, a third good at teaching game strategy.

The main thing here is that a good coach is able to be creative, problem solve whatever issue is causing the particular player to not be good at a certain skill, and implement a strategy to try and get that player to improve and work past whatever is holding him back on a particular issue.

These videos, on many levels, are presenting fine information, that for some players will be ground breaking, for other players will be useful but not so special, for others the information will be totally beside the point. Because the information is just principles without a player who needs to work on a specific issue.

But it is hard for internet information in video form to be specific to a person's actual needs without something like what Brett does where he gets a person to send him video and then says: "try this, see if it helps."

So the information about TT techniques I don't have much problem with. But the comments that simple information about biomechanics for table tennis fundamentals somehow come from one specific race or nationality....I could live without that. Mechanics are mechanics.

But all this being said, I would really like to see EmRatThich coaching and the range of players he is effective at helping.




Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

doraemon
01-23-2017, 11:10 PM
nextlevel has a good point about context, but always when he does this he always goes WAY too far, attacking everyone and then finding some really sad conspiracy why people disagree with him - (eg, Musaab knows EmRat). It is a good idea to take information with a pinch of salt, but there is no need to be aggressive about it, discrediting everyone.

Summary: Point Relevance (A+++), delivery (D-) :)

And then there is Archosaurous. I've read your posts and have never seen you post a legit video of yourself playing in a real manner. So I don't think that you should keep on asking for videos. I don't know you personally, but there is a dual personality thing going on, methinks.

I have no problem with people not posting videos of themselves and giving advice- it just comes down to whether people are willing to believe it.

Interesting videos by the way.

Archosaurus
01-24-2017, 02:33 AM
@doraemon

My apologies your highness. For future videos I will conform to your completely vague standards of what is legitimate and what is not so that your justified and totally not completely irrelevant criticism shall not strike upon me. :rolleyes:

@RidTheKid

You don't need to post any video to make me feel good. Although I do like looking at other people play and I think we would appreciate it if you did.

I was just trying to establish some context. Your post makes more sense with what you've told us. My wording was just bad and attacking, sorry.

@Suga D

It's okay. What can I do. My monday was rubbish as well, I understand. :p

I'm not sure if you and Carl have understood why I'm asking for video from him. I'm not trying to "find him out" like Carl seems to think. There's an obvious content difference in the things I've said while completely anonymous, and the things he has. Even then, it's not some contest.


Think of the viewers on his channel. Isn't it better they know what his game is really like? I would argue the forums would also respect him even more.

However I'd also argue that part of his videos is the Chinese Super Secret Technique marketing scheme, and if it comes public that he's not really LGL putting on a good act and posting on a proxy, then maybe the effect would not work anymore. ;)

UpSideDownCarl
01-24-2017, 03:28 AM
My apologies your highness.

Come on Archo, just watch from the sidelines. All you are doing is making yourself look worse and worse. Your a good kid. Stop making yourself look like a fool.

Ilia Minkin
01-24-2017, 03:35 AM
Haha, I wonder if EmRatThich knew that his post would make things hit the fan :D

doraemon
01-24-2017, 03:42 AM
@doraemon

My apologies your highness. For future videos I will conform to your completely vague standards of what is legitimate and what is not so that your justified and totally not completely irrelevant criticism shall not strike upon me. :rolleyes:
Well, playing on an actual table would be a good start, instead of "showing" your stroke and bouncing a ball. And my criticism is justified, although I think you do not understand it,so I will communicate in simple terms- asking for a video which shows EmRat's level is hypocrisy from your part

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy

Archosaurus
01-24-2017, 03:45 AM
Well, playing on an actual table would be a good start, instead of "showing" your stroke and bouncing a ball. And my criticism is justified, although I think you do not understand it,so I will communicate in simple terms- asking for a video which shows EmRat's level is hypocrisy from your part

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypocrisy

Ah, now I understand. You've missed a few videos I've posted a few months ago. I was under the impression that you were talking about those.

Anyway, send me a PM if you really care to see them. I'm not posting them here.

Gjayesh
01-24-2017, 03:47 AM
Ah, now I understand. You've missed a few videos I've posted a few months ago. I was under the impression that you were talking about those.

Anyway, send me a PM if you really care to see them. I'm not posting them here.

Why cant post here we r not minority players [emoji23] we have the right to enjoy those videos too [emoji848][emoji51]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Archosaurus
01-24-2017, 03:49 AM
They're not on-topic. But I'll gladly show them. I'll throw them onto the chit-chat thread: I don't have time to PM everyone.

Gjayesh
01-24-2017, 03:50 AM
They're not on-topic. But I'll gladly show them. I'll throw them onto the chit-chat thread: I don't have time to PM everyone.

Thanx waiting


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

doraemon
01-24-2017, 04:10 AM
After watching those videos, I am not sure what I am meant to say.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?13168-Daily-Table-Tennis-Chit-Chat/page234

Archosaurus
01-24-2017, 04:12 AM
After watching those videos, I am not sure what I am meant to say.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?13168-Daily-Table-Tennis-Chit-Chat/page234
Whatever it is, don't you think the chit chat thread would be better for that?

This goes to anyone else who will feel need to comment.

tropical
01-24-2017, 05:01 PM
I am new here but I found some folks are really annoying. "emratthich" videos are ok. You can like it or not but asking the poster to illustrate his skills is purely .. ah stupid.

UpSideDownCarl
01-24-2017, 07:43 PM
I am new here but I found some folks are really annoying. "emratthich" videos are ok. You can like it or not but asking the poster to illustrate his skills is purely .. ah stupid.

Interesting. Given the downsides of internet anonymity, you would rather someone present "coaching" without ever seeing their ability to coach, who they are, how they actually work with people, students they have brought from a low level to a high level?

Archo may be an idiot and he may not know when to keep his mouth shut. It would be a good thing for him to learn that skill. However, transparency and knowing who is really presenting the information has an actual value.

So, here is a hypothetical scenario:

You have this guy; he can't play or coach; and he puts videos like this together from info he got from the internet, not crediting ANY of his sources, presenting the info as "Chinese Secrets" comparing top pros from China to mid-level amateurs from Europe to say that the Chinese technique is better, all without ever showing any footage of himself, his coaching or the people he has actually coached and helped:

Are you okay with that?

I am not saying that is EmRatThich. But it is certainly a possibility since we have not seen him, his students, footage of him coaching or anything. And the good info I have heard from him is always stuff I have heard from multiple sources.

When you are involved in online forums long enough, you see many people pretending to be someone other than who they are. Every so often you may figure it out, with some of them, that they are fakers or charlatans. Anonymity makes it possible for that kind of charade to continue for much longer than it should.

Here is one of my stories:I am playing with a group of guys at this place and it is busy. We are all the same level. There is one table and 4 players. We are just playing one game at a time. Rotating means you sit for two games and play for two. Add another into the mix and the wait is not as favorable.

This guy we all know, who is really at a different and much lower level keeps coming up and bugging the guy who is paying for the table, asking if he can work in with us. He explains how much better he has gotten. He uses examples of playing people we know with a spot of 4 points and winning all the games. The guy who is renting the table says: "well, Joe was probably just being nice, but, here, you will play each of us once and we will see how things go.

He got 1 or 2 points from 3 of us. We were not playing hard. The guy in our group who was the lowest level player played a little harder than the rest of us, and at 10-0 he made it obvious that he was giving the guy a free point. Really, all the guy who rented the table was saying to him was that he is better off playing with someone his own level and/or getting coaching.

This guy is obsessed with TT and I have heard him talk a mile a minute about how good he is. Without letting him play 1 game with each of us we would not have known for sure how much he had improved or if he even had.

On the internet this guy could pretend he knew what he was talking about and present himself as an expert. It would be a lot like having a second Archosaurus around.

Originally, it took an amazing amount to get an annoying kid who loves the game like Archo to post video footage of himself and show us that rather than an expert, he is a kid who wants to learn. As annoying as he is now he was much more annoying and actually dangerous before he posted footage.

Personally, I think there are a lot of things that are good about the videos EmRatThich posts. I also think the issues about a Vietnamese guy living in France claiming he is teaching Chinese techniques, who has not shown any footage of himself or his students should at least cause people reason to pause.

Even if he is a legit coach, and I suspect he is, the total absence of any credentials of any kind, and a complete lack of footage that shows HIS ACTUAL work, or any of the students he has helped coach, is actually a little more than a little worrisome, at least to me.


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Archosaurus
01-24-2017, 07:50 PM
Woah, hold it Dickens!

Just kidding. You explained the argument pretty well.

UpSideDownCarl
01-24-2017, 07:53 PM
Right up front on the home page, PingSkills begins to list credentials:

https://www.pingskills.com

"Olympic Coach Alois Rosario has coached thousands of students....."

On TTEdge:

http://www.ttedge.com/brett-clarke

"Brett represented Australia from 1991-2006 and was National Head Coach of the Australian Senior/Junior team from 2009-2010...."

http://www.ttedge.com/william-henzell

"William spent 12 years living and training in Europe in a quest to find the best table tennis practice and coaching available. From the age of 14 years, he played with World and Olympic Champions, and worked with many of the top coaches in the world...."

That is just simple transparent business practice.

Archo may be a fool and has no business in this conversation, but at a certain point, people in an online community have a right to ask for credentials when it is obvious that they are being completely hidden and obscured.


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NextLevel
01-24-2017, 08:02 PM
Interesting. Given the downsides of internet anonymity, you would rather someone present "coaching" without ever seeing their ability to coach, who they are, how they actually work with people, students they have brought from a low level to a high level?

Archo may be an idiot and he may not know when to keep his mouth shut. It would be a good thing for him to learn that skill. However, transparency and knowing who is really presenting the information has an actual value.

So, here is a hypothetical scenario:

You have this guy; he can't play or coach; and he puts videos like this together from info he got from the internet, not crediting ANY of his sources, presenting the info as "Chinese Secrets" comparing top pros from China to mid-level amateurs from Europe to say that the Chinese technique is better, all without ever showing any footage of himself, his coaching or the people he has actually coached and helped:

Are you okay with that?

I am not saying that is EmRatThich. But it is certainly a possibility since we have not seen him, his students, footage of him coaching or anything. And the good info I have heard from him is always stuff I have heard from multiple sources.

When you are involved in online forums long enough, you see many people pretending to be someone other than who they are. Every so often you may figure it out, with some of them, that they are fakers or charlatans. Anonymity makes it possible for that kind of charade to continue for much longer than it should.

Here is one of my stories:I am playing with a group of guys at this place and it is busy. We are all the same level. There is one table and 4 players. We are just playing one game at a time. Rotating means you sit for two games and play for two. Add another into the mix and the wait is not as favorable.

This guy we all know, who is really at a different and much lower level keeps coming up and bugging the guy who is paying for the table, asking if he can work in with us. He explains how much better he has gotten. He uses examples of playing people we know with a spot of 4 points and winning all the games. The guy who is renting the table says: "well, Joe was probably just being nice, but, here, you will play each of us once and we will see how things go.

He got 1 or 2 points from 3 of us. We were not playing hard. The guy in our group who was the lowest level player played a little harder than the rest of us, and at 10-0 he made it obvious that he was giving the guy a free point. Really, all the guy who rented the table was saying to him was that he is better off playing with someone his own level and/or getting coaching.

This guy is obsessed with TT and I have heard him talk a mile a minute about how good he is. Without letting him play 1 game with each of us we would not have known for sure how much he had improved or if he even had.

On the internet this guy could pretend he knew what he was talking about and present himself as an expert. It would be a lot like having a second Archosaurus around.

Originally, it took an amazing amount to get an annoying kid who loves the game like Archo to post video footage of himself and show us that rather than an expert, he is a kid who wants to learn. As annoying as he is now he was much more annoying and actually dangerous before he posted footage.

Personally, I think there are a lot of things that are good about the videos EmRatThich posts. I also think the issues about a Vietnamese guy living in France claiming he is teaching Chinese techniques, who has not shown any footage of himself or his students should at least cause people reason to pause.

Even if he is a legit coach, and I suspect he is, the total absence of any credentials of any kind, and a complete lack of footage that shows HIS ACTUAL work, or any of the students he has helped coach, is actually a little more than a little worrisome, at least to me.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

At this point, the people who don't get it just won't, that's why I ignore some people who confuse their personal issues with what is going on here. SchemeSC is like myself, we know what it was like to try to take advice off the internet and use it, and end up looking like fools, not knowing that the people preaching such advice had no real credibility. What is sad is that people are so deprived of TT knowledge that they find the secrets groundbreaking, even without the proper context within which to understand them. I have no problem with anyone posting advice as long as they substantiate their background in some way, even a French ranking/rating would be sufficient, or some experience having coached someone to a good ranking or rating. The number of times I have met players who tell me that a poster on the internet is a higher rated player than they are and the truth is the reversie would make you amazed.

NextLevel
01-24-2017, 08:41 PM
Here is a blogpost by Larry after Greg posted his classic video on internet forum members:

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/2221

Here is on tidbit:

"I used to be very active in online forums, but in recent years not so much. Why? It was a combination of dealing with what the video calls "1500 Experts" and trolls. Often someone would post a coaching question, and I'd answer it, only to be contradicted and even scorned by these "Experts." Let's just say that there are some very opinionated people out there who haven't actually done anything in table tennis, and frankly speaking, don't know what they are talking about. This doesn't mean there aren't lower-rated players who are knowledgeable about table tennis, but they are outnumbered and often outposted by those who are not but believe otherwise.One that comes to mind was a guy who argued strenuously with me about forehand looping technique. He'd argue to the ends of the earth that you only use your arm for the shot, no legs or hip rotation, and talked about his revolutionary methods that gave him a more powerful loop than those taught by the clueless people who taught table tennis. He admitted he'd never been to a table tennis club or tournament, nor had he played any top players, but he knew. He KNEW."

Other examples are there if you are willing to go to the link and read.

doraemon
01-24-2017, 08:54 PM
Does anyone realise the complete silence on EmRat's part?

NextLevel
01-24-2017, 09:29 PM
Does anyone realise the complete silence on EmRat's part?

Of course it is noticed, he is posting on at least 3 forums and is advertising his videos on all of them and he has not made more recent posts than he ones he has made here on the other forums either as far as I can tell. He is trying to put out his videos to get more youtube viewers and subscribers, building a very popular youtube channel with lots of subscribers is a lucrative venture. I should probably take a stab at it too, but I don't have the time.

That said, there is nothing unreasonably that people are asking here, it's just unfortunate that because of the way the web works, reasonable requests are now being taken as something other than what they are.

suds79
01-24-2017, 09:29 PM
I am new here but I found some folks are really annoying. "emratthich" videos are ok. You can like it or not but asking the poster to illustrate his skills is purely .. ah stupid.

Awesome. Can i be your financial adviser? Just give me your money and I will make good investments with it. Don't worry, i will resite good investment techniques from what I find in other videos or google to make you feel at ease. Personally, I love it that you're not actually asking for any qualifications from me. But yes you can trust me. I'm an expert.

SMH.

I'm convinced that emratthich doesn't actually coach at all. I think we just have someone here who is a youtuber fishing for views. The reason why he never posts any of his play or coaching is because he doesn't do it.

songdavid98
01-24-2017, 11:17 PM
About the actual video:

@EmRatThich

for the sake of producing better videos, the letter 'c' in the word 'muscle' is silent. So pronounce it as 'mussle.' English is clearly not your first language, but keep up the effort!

As for the actual quality of the content: not bad. Keep it up.


********
********

As for the conversation about video proof of EmRatThich:

People of the internet clearly know that there are fakes and charlatans out there, so it is perfectly valid to ask for video proof of something.


I can see that a lot of newer users here are wondering about the context of the situation, which is slightly relevant to Archo not making video footage in the past.


------------------>>>>>>>> So here's some context:

The thing is that Archo is sort of trying to pull the same stuff on EmRatThich, that Carl did to Archo, which is ask for video proof. Other veteran users were discussing this.

This Archo business comes up very often, and I find it very annoying too, but it is actually extremely important, which is why this business comes up so often.

Giving people information without proving yourself is a little suspicious, especially on the internet where a majority are anonymous.

Suga D
01-24-2017, 11:17 PM
A couple of points:

1) i've been argueing with NL a few times already, and at first i got a little riled up, by the way NL argues sometimes, but i've learned it's his way of standing his ground, and he's given some good reasoning too, so i don't think NL ist being aggressive.
At least he never has been calling me names or anything, and i value that really a lot, since it seems to be pretty fashionable to some people to be insulting people and calling them names anonymously on the web like on FB for instance.


2) i don't think EmRat Thich is being racial, but rather heavily biased.
On the first page of this thread he says that he got introduced to what he calls chinese TT philosophy. Maybe the person that taught him sold it to him like that.
We all know that Chinese flew to Europe to learn things and Europeans flew to China to learn things, so it's actually rather a worldwide exchange, but not everyone has such a deep understanding of how things work, so i wouldn't judge someone for not knowing this and if some people can find his posts useful, then who am i to question that, especially when he said his vids are made for beginners ot people without having access to some quality coaching.

3) in some cultures it would come across as pretty rude asking someone to illustrate of his skillz.
Especially Suds79 with his conclusions and accusations doesn't come across very polite in this regard.
Asking once can even be understandable to a degree especially when it has so good reasoning as from NL or Carl, but i mean c'mon, guys: EmRat made 4 posts and then 4 pages of this??
FOUR F*CKIN' PAGES??
Let me ask you clearly:
Are you freaking kidding?

I'm quite sure we can do better than that!
[Emoji6]

Der_Echte
01-25-2017, 12:03 AM
Suga D,

I am with you, but many Americans have the "Missouri" attitude of SHOW ME.

Kinda like "Earst mal, zeig mir den Geld"

OK to ask, but yeah 4 pages of wondering is a bit excessive.

tropical
01-25-2017, 12:04 AM
Awesome. Can i be your financial adviser? Just give me your money and I will make good investments with it. Don't worry, i will resite good investment techniques from what I find in other videos or google to make you feel at ease. Personally, I love it that you're not actually asking for any qualifications from me. But yes you can trust me. I'm an expert.

SMH.

I'm convinced that emratthich doesn't actually coach at all. I think we just have someone here who is a youtuber fishing for views. The reason why he never posts any of his play or coaching is because he doesn't do it.


Not sure if I want to get into argument with this kind of mentality. Of course you can be my free financial advisor but I will choose whether I follow your advices or not.

My recommendation to you and the likes: Just take everything at its face value. Don't be too serious!

Jesus taught us something and you can chose to believe or not to believe in his words. Confucius did the same. However, I do not care what he or Jesus preached :cool: If you found something good about the videos than it is good for you, if not then it is ok as well. Questioning skills is childish as all the videos are free for god sake.

jamesmith
01-25-2017, 12:11 AM
I living in Thailand, having many coaches here to help me to improve my backhand and my game, after 5 yrs, it had not improved much, last month, I went to china and had a coach in Shenzhen for two hours, his advise was so so good and I had no need to tell him what problem I had, he knew by playing with me. Chinese are really good at table tennis, their knowledge, skill .... are much better then other nation. ( it is my own opinion)

laistrogian
01-25-2017, 01:56 AM
All I hear from this guy are "chinese does these good shit while the europeans are just doing the wrong things"

In other words, what I've been hearing from this guy is bullshit.

China spends a shit ton of money in selecting, training players for their national team. Not to mention table tennis is a big sport in china. Their national team practices together daily, they hire people literally to be practice partner.

I could bet you any country with big enthusiasm in table tennis that starts doing the same thing as china in terms of practice methodology will be as competitive as china within a single generation of player

Takkyu_wa_inochi
01-25-2017, 06:39 AM
I have no proof but I think EmRatThich is a scam.
I feel like i've seen the footage in other videos, it would not even be original material

Garrison
01-25-2017, 07:52 AM
Why are we even discussing this? Try his tips out, if it works for you, good!

TTFrenzy
01-25-2017, 09:16 AM
Why are we even discussing this? Try his tips out, if it works for you, good!

true!

somdbasu
01-25-2017, 04:39 PM
Excellent vids with in depth analysis. Your efforts will not go in vain. I have started hitting some incredible topspins due to your videos. Also my backhand has improved suddenly.Keep them rolling. Thanks a ton for your hard work. Cheers.

Tinykin
01-25-2017, 04:50 PM
Haha, I wonder if EmRatThich knew that his post would make things hit the fan :D

This guy is brilliant. He always has that effect. He has been wreaking havoc on table tennis and chess forums since the nineties

Tinykin
01-25-2017, 04:51 PM
I have no proof but I think EmRatThich is a scam.
I feel like i've seen the footage in other videos, it would not even be original material

Bingo!!!!!!

Tinykin
01-25-2017, 04:54 PM
Also good people, notice the newly created contributors that are his greatest supporters.
They are the same person.......
Eeerie isn't it?

NextLevel
01-25-2017, 05:08 PM
Nah, Tinykin, I don't think this is him. Carl was just making a point to people. EmratThich has far more substance than the ARB guy. Let's not get things going down the very wrong path,

Tinykin
01-25-2017, 05:14 PM
We'll see.
IMO all the hallmarks are there. The strange language. The accurate info mixed with outright bs. The way he draws in people. Plus the sock puppets where he is praising himself.

RidTheKid
01-25-2017, 05:15 PM
Yes, and he has also been transparent with it if you have been following his videos. And why does it matter? "His" theories (videos) works and helps other to elevate their game, which is exactly why he makes them. That's all that counts. I feel that people who complain about this guy Emrat really have no bearing to do so and just can't find anything else to talk about.


I have no proof but I think EmRatThich is a scam.
I feel like i've seen the footage in other videos, it would not even be original material

NextLevel
01-25-2017, 05:16 PM
We'll see.
IMO all the hallmarks are there. The strange language. The accurate info mixed with outright bs. The way he draws in people. Plus the sock puppets where he is praising himself.

Unless he has a lot of sock puppet subscribers for his youtube channel, its a bit hard to get that many viewers. Also think that most of his stuff is on gaming and this is just another way of getting more viewers.

tropical
01-25-2017, 05:17 PM
Let's discuss on the video content instead of concentrating on the poster's credibility. You guys are so distracting.

So .. I start the question here: Has anyone tried the new holding technique yet? How is it? I have been a TT players for years and know I do not have a good grip as my palm gets blisters easily. Maybe the technique in his video helps?

Tinykin
01-25-2017, 05:17 PM
You must realise that this guy is brilliant. The schemes he thinks of would never come from any ordinary mind.

RidTheKid
01-25-2017, 05:17 PM
Haha. You're from the UK, that must mean that you're Sherlock. With your reasoning the world is still flat.


We'll see.
IMO all the hallmarks are there. The strange language. The accurate info mixed with outright bs. The way he draws in people. Plus the sock puppets where he is praising himself.

tropical
01-25-2017, 05:20 PM
You must realise that this guy is brilliant. The schemes he thinks of would never come from any ordinary mind.
Oh god .. here you go again!

Tinykin
01-25-2017, 05:37 PM
Haha. You're from the UK, that must mean that you're Sherlock. With your reasoning the world is still flat.

Perhaps, Rick. People from Vancouver, like yourself, are so much more advanced in your thinking. Look how you have this thread buzzing.

RidTheKid
01-25-2017, 05:47 PM
Flags aren't one of your strong suits, eh? It's Sweden.


Perhaps, Rick. People from Vancouver, like yourself, are so much more advanced in your thinking. Look how you have this thread buzzing.

TTFrenzy
01-25-2017, 09:54 PM
Im surprised that people are surprised by his clickbaiting tactics. I mean really what did you expect? I guess sometimes we humans like more debating about stuff that actually do not matter

Emrat has the right to name his videos whatever he likes and specify his content again, however he likes. Instead of endless/pointless conversations wouldnt it be better to promote/discuss channels that DO have "chinese secrets" or however you wanna call it (its not of significant importance anyway) with content that is actually very usefull

pingskills, tt edge, matt hetherington, tony

and this guy right here who happens to be an actual chinese coach and focuses on every little detail

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9NJj8pFbzwxgj0pr3Vb0oaVQhI8MJ854

the translation to english is sometimes "misleading" but the effort and total result are 100 % gold for everyone. noob to amateur even to semipro or pro level

in fact I will make a thread just for the fun of it, this guy totally deserves it ! :)

Richie
01-25-2017, 11:14 PM
Im surprised that people are surprised by his clickbaiting tactics. I mean really what did you expect? I guess sometimes we humans like more debating about stuff that actually do not matter

Emrat has the right to name his videos whatever he likes and specify his content again, however he likes. Instead of endless/pointless conversations wouldnt it be better to promote/discuss channels that DO have "chinese secrets" or however you wanna call it (its not of significant importance anyway) with content that is actually very usefull

pingskills, tt edge, matt hetherington, tony

and this guy right here who happens to be an actual chinese coach and focuses on every little detail

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9NJj8pFbzwxgj0pr3Vb0oaVQhI8MJ854

the translation to english is sometimes "misleading" but the effort and total result are 100 % gold for everyone. noob to amateur even to semipro or pro level

in fact I will make a thread just for the fun of it, this guy totally deserves it ! :)

I agree. I actually find it interesting that people care so much about things they ultimately have no control over instead of just focusing on themselves and what they can do to get better. So if you don't think they're credible (which you have all right to do) then simply ignore it and move on to things that you believe will help you.

It is however quite good that people do question their credibility as Carl does so that beginners or whoever might give it a second thought and not believe everything they hear.

Same goes for other things, for example Harimoto's screaming which again receives too much attention. This attention in the right way might lead to him screaming less. But getting upset about it on this forum, for example, is going to do nothing.. so perhaps it's better to focus on other things. If it takes away your enjoyment from watching him, then don't watch him. Saying that, it's still not something I condone or like.

What I believe we need more of on this forum is exactly what you just posted - more attention to useful and probably more credible resources than pages of arguments or attacks on one who isn't quite as relevant. I've been wanting to post my playlist of tutorials/clips on serves which I've found useful, perhaps this is something people would be interested in?

This is just me of course, I suppose some people enjoy arguing about things.

UpSideDownCarl
01-26-2017, 05:30 AM
Here is how these things go:


You are right that these principles are not news for the pro players. I didn't say it is new in my tutorial video.

And yet, here is a quote from 9:07 in the video taken word for word just how it is spelled in the subtitle:

"It's not new to many Chinese coaches. However, not many western coach or players know the truth behind it."

It sounds like one of his two quotes has to be off somewhere.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Baal
01-26-2017, 09:16 AM
Here is how these things go:



And yet, here is a quote from 9:07 in the video taken word for word just how it is spelled in the subtitle:

"It's not new to many Chinese coaches. However, not many western coach or players know the truth behind it."

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

First time I encountered this guy's videos, some months ago at MyTT, I noticed that. This "mystique of the Orient" thing seems to be one of his favorite themes, the idea that he has some secret insight into what Chinese coaches say, and that western coaching cannot manage to convey even the most basic ideas (why, because he is Vietnamese (?), that makes no sense at all). And this was followed by banal things that I have heard from about every coach "here in the west", among whom are several who are not Chinese (but not one Vietnamese, in spite of the fact that more than 200,000 Vietnamese people live in my city, including many Hua people originally from the Cholon neighborhood of Saigon).

So I decided that since I am getting coaching from some really good Chinese guys, I would spend my time on Youtube listening and watching jazz, which works better to take my mind off the direction my country is headed.


Still, if there is something in the vids that help people, that is not a bad thing.

One thing that I find really interesting from an internet phenomenon point of view is the things that induce flame wars on TT forums. I have been watching these things for 10 years. MyTT is (or used to be) the place where things would be more likely to blow up, but this guy's videos there garnered hardly a peep. Is it just random? I think partly. Sometimes it takes just one person to notice something, and then we're off to the races. Of course the PNachtways and Sebas-Aguirres of the world manage to blow up all forums and have completed the grand slam of getting banned repeatedly from all known English language TT forums.

NextLevel
01-26-2017, 11:21 AM
First time I encountered this guy's videos, some months ago at MyTT, I noticed that. This "mystique of the Orient" thing seems to be one of his favorite themes, the idea that he has some secret insight into what Chinese coaches say, and that western coaching cannot manage to convey even the most basic ideas (why, because he is Vietnamese (?), that makes no sense at all). And this was followed by banal things that I have heard from about every coach "here in the west", among whom are several who are not Chinese (but not one Vietnamese, in spite of the fact that more than 200,000 Vietnamese people live in my city, including many Hua people originally from the Cholon neighborhood of Saigon).

So I decided that since I am getting coaching from some really good Chinese guys, I would spend my time on Youtube listening and watching jazz, which works better to take my mind off the direction my country is headed.


Still, if there is something in the vids that help people, that is not a bad thing.

One thing that I find really interesting from an internet phenomenon point of view is the things that induce flame wars on TT forums. I have been watching these things for 10 years. MyTT is (or used to be) the place where things would be more likely to blow up, but this guy's videos there garnered hardly a peep. Is it just random? I think partly. Sometimes it takes just one person to notice something, and then we're off to the races. Of course the PNachtways and Sebas-Aguirres of the world manage to blow up all forums and have completed the grand slam of getting banned repeatedly from all known English language TT forums.

That's a common impression but he is going around discrediting a lot of people without providing any insight into his experience and expertise. As long as people realize that

1) there is a risk to listening to this stuff and
2) there are more credible sources for this information with better context, both Chinese and non-Chinese

all is well.

The funny thing is that while there is some general agreement that he is directing his comments at "beginners", a lot of what he is saying is mostly going to help people well beyond the beginner stage, especially those who hang around good players, as that is the level at which one can give context to what he is saying.

Suga D
01-26-2017, 11:45 AM
His advices are good for beginners, that's all there is too it, if he cant apply them himself and simply copied other coaches/articles does not affect the utility of his videos. For all I know he maybe doing it for clickbaiting, his titles are misleading sometimes, this does not mean his analysis is not worthy. on the contrary

Very well spoken. NOTHING to add to that.

NextLevel
01-26-2017, 12:48 PM
Glad to hear that his videos helped you. But you also need to understand that while his videos might have helped YOU, the advice that he is presenting can be dangerous for lower level players.


His advices are good for beginners, that's all there is too it, if he cant apply them himself and simply copied other coaches/articles does not affect the utility of his videos. For all I know he maybe doing it for clickbaiting, his titles are misleading sometimes, this does not mean his analysis is not worthy. on the contrary


Very well spoken. NOTHING to add to that.

A lot of stuff in EmRatThich's videos is not really for BEGINNERS. The Chinese have a saying whose main point is that the use of the fingers in TT is the most advanced level of table tennis. I guess that they must have meant is that the most advanced level of table tennis is supposed to be for beginners! In any case, the main point here is that in everything, context matters. In any case, it would help to be more specific on who his videos are really directed at. Though that could limit the audience...

Musaab
01-26-2017, 01:10 PM
@EmRatThich , if you are reading this, just search the forum and youtube for match/training videos of those who criticize you the most. You would see then nothing here should affect you or how you should make your videos etc .. as simple as that

NextLevel
01-26-2017, 01:19 PM
@EmRatThich , if you are reading this, just search the forum and youtube for match/training videos of those who criticize you the most. You would see then nothing here should affect you or how you should make your videos etc .. as simple as that

Obviously. I don't make videos for beginners or lie about my level of play.

TTFrenzy
01-26-2017, 01:21 PM
A lot of stuff in EmRatThich's videos is not really for BEGINNERS. The Chinese have a saying whose main point is that the use of the fingers in TT is the most advanced level of table tennis. I guess that they must have meant is that the most advanced level of table tennis is supposed to be for beginners! In any case, the main point here is that in everything, context matters. In any case, it would help to be more specific on who his videos are really directed at. Though that could limit the audience...


I agree with your thought process and the irony towards emrat, but to be exact I think the chinese and every good coach stresses the importance of grip (and how the fingers apply pressure) and feel the ball with your fingers is very important from day 1, teaching a player who has never played before not even pros. I saw ML and WH tutorial videos and they both speak firstly about the grip/finger pressure and then go to evaluate other aspects of a stroke, but they are pros of pros.

Do you mind pasting that chinese quote? I believe that training an amateur youngster or a 50 old player you still have to teach him about grips and stuff although he may not become a pro one day.

Besides beginner is a vague term, so emrat is just using these situations for clickbait. I understand why you and carl want to "expose" him but after a certain point I think u work in his favor lol

People who chose to learn through clickbait, dont deserve to learn the truth about TT techniques anyway, cause they believe stereotypes like "oh Im gonna learn some chinese secrets and tactics, this way I will definitely become a better player". Wrong stupid & pointless approach if you ask me , but hey who are we to judge? You cant change a narrow minded person or give him other perspectives to see the truth about any topic if they believe so hard in the chinese god technique and "secrets"

TTFrenzy
01-26-2017, 01:28 PM
First time I encountered this guy's videos, some months ago at MyTT, I noticed that. This "mystique of the Orient" thing seems to be one of his favorite themes, the idea that he has some secret insight into what Chinese coaches say, and that western coaching cannot manage to convey even the most basic ideas (why, because he is Vietnamese (?), that makes no sense at all). And this was followed by banal things that I have heard from about every coach "here in the west", among whom are several who are not Chinese (but not one Vietnamese, in spite of the fact that more than 200,000 Vietnamese people live in my city, including many Hua people originally from the Cholon neighborhood of Saigon).

So I decided that since I am getting coaching from some really good Chinese guys, I would spend my time on Youtube listening and watching jazz, which works better to take my mind off the direction my country is headed.


Still, if there is something in the vids that help people, that is not a bad thing.

One thing that I find really interesting from an internet phenomenon point of view is the things that induce flame wars on TT forums. I have been watching these things for 10 years. MyTT is (or used to be) the place where things would be more likely to blow up, but this guy's videos there garnered hardly a peep. Is it just random? I think partly. Sometimes it takes just one person to notice something, and then we're off to the races. Of course the PNachtways and Sebas-Aguirres of the world manage to blow up all forums and have completed the grand slam of getting banned repeatedly from all known English language TT forums.


The
peanut guy was great though I really miss him sometimes

pgpg
01-26-2017, 01:31 PM
I agree with your thought process and the irony towards emrat, but to be exact I think the chinese and every good coach stresses the importance of grip (and how the fingers apply pressure) and feel the ball with your fingers is very important from day 1, teaching a player who has never played before not even pros. I saw ML and WH tutorial videos and they both speak firstly about the grip/finger pressure and then go to evaluate other aspects of a stroke, but they are pros of pros.

Do you mind pasting that chinese quote? I believe that training an amateur youngster or a 50 old player you still have to teach him about grips and stuff although he may not become a pro one day.

Besides beginner is a vague term, so emrat is just using these situations for clickbait. I understand why you and carl want to "expose" him but after a certain point I think u work in his favor lol

People who chose to learn through clickbait, dont deserve to learn the truth about TT techniques anyway, cause they believe stereotypes like "oh Im gonna learn some chinese secrets and tactics, this way I will definitely become a better player". Wrong stupid & pointless approach if you ask me , but hey who are we to judge? You cant change a narrow minded person or give him other perspectives to see the truth about any topic if they believe so hard in the chinese god technique and "secrets"

“The student who uses the arm to play is an elementary student; the one who uses the elbow is a middle school student; the one who uses the forearm to play is a college student; the one who uses the wrist to play is a postgraduate. Finally, the one who uses the fingers to play is a doctorate.”

You can find 3-part article linked from the following story about Jinxin Wang (at least that's where I saw it last):

http://butterflyonline.com/comprehensive-education-jinxin-wang-provides-food-thought/

P.S. I'm a middle-school student in this classification :). Which is another way of saying that I did not understand most of advice in these articles. Yet.

Suga D
01-26-2017, 01:34 PM
@EmRatThich , if you are reading this, just search the forum and youtube for match/training videos of those who criticize you the most. You would see then nothing here should affect you or how you should make your videos etc .. as simple as that


Obviously. I don't make videos for beginners or lie about my level of play.

and you still keeping on. *SMDH*
What you really refuse to understand is that people won´t give you more credit just ´cause you discredit other people´s work. That just makes you look like your jelly at his clix and like some str8 up playa hating from the start!

TTFrenzy
01-26-2017, 01:34 PM
“The student who uses the arm to play is an elementary student; the one who uses the elbow is a middle school student; the one who uses the forearm to play is a college student; the one who uses the wrist to play is a postgraduate. Finally, the one who uses the fingers to play is a doctorate.”

You can find 3-part article linked from the following story about Jinxin Wang (at least that's where I saw it last):

http://butterflyonline.com/comprehensive-education-jinxin-wang-provides-food-thought/

P.S. I'm a middle-school student in this classification :). Which is another way of saying that I did not understand most of advice in these articles. Yet.


Thanks a lot !! That is gold I've always wanted to "study" info like this :)

NextLevel
01-26-2017, 01:35 PM
I agree with your thought process and the irony towards emrat, but to be exact I think the chinese and every good coach stresses the importance of grip (and how the fingers apply pressure) and feel the ball with your fingers is very important from day 1, teaching a player who has never played before not even pros. I saw ML and WH tutorial videos and they both speak firstly about the grip/finger pressure and then go to evaluate other aspects of a stroke, but they are pros of pros.

Do you mind pasting that chinese quote? I believe that training an amateur youngster or a 50 old player you still have to teach him about grips and stuff although he may not become a pro one day.

Besides beginner is a vague term, so emrat is just using these situations for clickbait. I understand why you and carl want to "expose" him but after a certain point I think u work in his favor lol

People who chose to learn through clickbait, dont deserve to learn the truth about TT techniques anyway, cause they believe stereotypes like "oh Im gonna learn some chinese secrets and tactics, this way I will definitely become a better player". Wrong stupid & pointless approach if you ask me , but hey who are we to judge? You cant change a narrow minded person or give him other perspectives to see the truth about any topic if they believe so hard in the chinese god technique and "secrets"

Will be hard to find the quote but here is one version:

http://butterflyonline.com/importance-fingers-wrist-table-tennis/

Here is a fomer US National team member on the subject:

http://butterflyonline.com/using-your-fingers-effectively/

BTW, I have no doubt that some of this can help the right player. It can also hurt the wrong player. Grip basics are for everyone, but a lot of stuff being expressed is not grip basics.

You can continue to sit on both sides of the fence on this, but for me, I am okay with him posting, but I have to put out some warnings because I know what it was like to try stuff like this and mess up my TT. And I had a coach.

TTFrenzy
01-26-2017, 01:44 PM
Will be hard to find the quote but here is one version:

http://butterflyonline.com/importance-fingers-wrist-table-tennis/

Here is a fomer US National team member on the subject:

http://butterflyonline.com/using-your-fingers-effectively/

BTW, I have no doubt that some of this can help the right player. It can also hurt the wrong player. Grip basics are for everyone, but a lot of stuff being expressed is not grip basics.

You can continue to sit on both sides of the fence on this, but for me, I am okay with him posting, but I have to put out some warnings because I know what it was like to try stuff like this and mess up my TT. And I had a coach.

Yes thats why I understand why you and carl are "after" him in the first place, I also happen to be a victim of poor internet advice . Im not sitting in both sides, clickbaiting is pathetic, but what Im saying is that we cant prevent guys like emrat from luring enthusiastic "newbies" to the game for their own personal profit. What we can do is to promote EVEN BETTER channels and content instead.

If it was in my power/authority I would ban users who use this forum only for their personal purposes and not offering back to the "community" that exists here. Emrat is not offering something new, he justs rephrased many things that some of us already know as "secrets"

In simple words its ok for everyone, to promote their channel but to put it simple, If I was a mod I would force people not to put misleading titles on their topics/videos, not because I like being a dictator, but because it is unfair to all the other users for the reasons you and carl explained

Thanks for the links again :)

NextLevel
01-26-2017, 01:47 PM
and you still keeping on. *SMDH*
What you really refuse to understand is that people won´t give you more credit just ´cause you discredit other people´s work. That just makes you look like your jelly at his clix and like some str8 up playa hating from the start!

Acknowledged.

Suga D
01-26-2017, 02:11 PM
Acknowledged.

Gr8
[Emoji106]

UpSideDownCarl
01-26-2017, 04:18 PM
Okay, so, what I see here now seems much more useful and productive in spite of a few comments I feel may be off in tone or subject.

As far as why Musaab continues to find the need and desire to attack NextLevel for his level of play, I will not venture to guess.

But I don't find it relevant to the question of EmRatThich's credentials, whether he plays table tennis at all, whether he actually coaches, or simply presents content for his YouTube channel with information taken from various sources without crediting his sources.

The reason why I question EmRatThich has entirely to do with his purposefully hiding his credentials and not crediting any of his sources. The actual information on TT is generally sound, but, as has been said, needs to be put into context.

Why EmRat chose to lie when saying he did not say this information is not available causes me more reason to question his identity:


EmRat: "You are right that these principles are not news for the pro players. I didn't say it is new in my tutorial video."

And yet, here is a quote from 9:07 in the video taken word for word just how it is spelled in the subtitle:

EmRat: "It's not new to many Chinese coaches. However, not many western coach or players know the truth behind it."

If someone can give a decent answer to why EmRat should be able to present his information on TTDaily without us knowing anything about him or his sources, I am happy to hear a well reasoned discussion on it. As of yet I have not really heard that.

If a professor wrote a thesis on a subject and someone took the information and posted it anonymously presenting it as their own, we would call that plagiarism and we understand why that is a dangerous thing. When a person on the internet hides behind a false identity, we understand that it can cause some real problems. Why and how is this different?





Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

NextLevel
01-26-2017, 05:12 PM
Carl,

I have decided to give up and join SugaD and the other Gans of EmRatThich. You have taught us enough. We get it.

If you don't get it by now, you will never never never ever get it... oooooooo....

Well you never gonna get it...
Not this time...
The pooiint... you never gonna get it...
Oohhhh...

Brs
01-26-2017, 07:11 PM
I don't think you can call a spectacularly slow and boring 14-minute video clickbait. More like click repellant.

To me it seems unfair to demand a bio from somebody just because they post a goofy video. If you banned all the people who really don't know as much as they think they know about pingpong there'd be no one left here.

I have no opinion on the fingers thing, it's meaningless to me. I'm not a good player. But the whole idea of "secrets" is ridiculous. CNT players don't have secrets - they have trained relentlessly for their whole lives at top quality, and are the survivors of a much larger cohort that fell out along the way. We haven't. It's not a secret.

NextLevel
01-26-2017, 07:24 PM
I don't think you can call a spectacularly slow and boring 14-minute video clickbait. More like click repellant.

To me it seems unfair to demand a bio from somebody just because they post a goofy video. If you banned all the people who really don't know as much as they think they know about pingpong there'd be no one left here.

I have no opinion on the fingers thing, it's meaningless to me. I'm not a good player. But the whole idea of "secrets" is ridiculous. CNT players don't have secrets - they have trained relentlessly for their whole lives at top quality, and are the survivors of a much larger cohort that fell out along the way. We haven't. It's not a secret.

Booooo..... Boooooo......

Then again, someone I remember with a handle like yours got injured trying to copy the playing style of a pro player...

TTFrenzy
01-26-2017, 08:19 PM
I don't think you can call a spectacularly slow and boring 14-minute video clickbait. More like click repellant.

To me it seems unfair to demand a bio from somebody just because they post a goofy video. If you banned all the people who really don't know as much as they think they know about pingpong there'd be no one left here.

I have no opinion on the fingers thing, it's meaningless to me. I'm not a good player. But the whole idea of "secrets" is ridiculous. CNT players don't have secrets - they have trained relentlessly for their whole lives at top quality, and are the survivors of a much larger cohort that fell out along the way. We haven't. It's not a secret.

You

misinterpreted my post. Not all people post videos claiming that they have discovered the "truth" or revealed "secrets" like emrat did.Not all people think they know more than they actually do, its a huge mistakes to equalize everyone's knowledge or importance in here as being the same.

I talked about banning people who try to get advantage out of a good situation that is going on here for their own personal gain and moreover without giving anything special BACK to the users.

If some users are inexperienced,misguided, too enthusiastic when it comes to commercials of XYZ rubber and want to improve or (forgive me for my language, I dont want to write a long post explaining levels of intelligence in certain aspects of the game) "too stupid" to realize that some channels have content which is presented to be the "super duper next best thing in TT" whereas in fact its not anything special,

users (like tony,carl next level, matt hetherington,baal) who actually know what is going on certain aspects of the game, have the right to provide their own side of the story, just as guys like emrat provides his side of the story.

Banning guys like emrat, dont have anything personal against the guy and I said it before some of his info is indeed usefull, is my personal way of running things and I just expressed it. Besides, one can adjust simply adjust himself, create a new account with another name and simply stop bullshitting people providing the same content

If the forum was mine and I really wanted to help people to improve then I would keep scammmers away and trust me there have been lots of them both here and in other forums and Im personally disgusted.

Im not saying carl or dan or nextlevel are doing things wrong or that my solution and approach is the objectively the best , I just expressed how I would deal with the situation

I will just redirect you to what Carl said in his previous post

If a professor wrote a thesis on a subject and someone took the information and posted it anonymously presenting it as their own, we would call that plagiarism and we understand why that is a dangerous thing. When a person on the internet hides behind a false identity, we understand that it can cause some real problems. Why and how is this different?

Baal
01-27-2017, 04:51 PM
If a professor wrote a thesis on a subject and someone took the information and posted it anonymously presenting it as their own, we would call that plagiarism and we understand why that is a dangerous thing. When a person on the internet hides behind a false identity, we understand that it can cause some real problems. Why and how is this different?

I very much get the concept. (A doctoral student I was supervising did this and needless to say, he will never be allowed into another graduate program in the US). I guess it just needs to be practical and this is all "for entertainment purposes only". We can't really protect people from getting bad information on the internet. I actually am a professor so I get it, but getting things published, going through peer-review, all that, often not any fun at all. I come here for fun, like most people. Plus, some of the flame wars are occasionally entertaining. And in spite of the extremely informal nature of it all, I do occasionally come away with useful information.

Rather than just banning someone, you can just mock them (if you don't go too far).

TTFrenzy
01-27-2017, 07:09 PM
I very much get the concept. (A doctoral student I was supervising did this and needless to say, he will never be allowed into another graduate program in the US). I guess it just needs to be practical and this is all "for entertainment purposes only". We can't really protect people from getting bad information on the internet. I actually am a professor so I get it, but getting things published, going through peer-review, all that, often not any fun at all. I come here for fun, like most people. Plus, some of the flame wars are occasionally entertaining. And in spite of the extremely informal nature of it all, I do occasionally come away with useful information.

Rather than just banning someone, you can just mock them (if you don't go too far).

Well I must admit it I like mocking people that try to mock me, but we both do it in a different way :P Sometimes I just cant help it against guys like pnachtwey, sebas aguirre (that "kowabonga" nickname from NL still cracks me up). Trash talking is entertaining sometimes. Anyway with all that flame and arguement we actually did a good job promoting emrat's channel even more :P

Sopeople,

for real 100 % chinese secrets of table tennis that are from a 100% chinese coach and not some random vietnamese guy who pretends to be chinese, here you go

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9NJj8pFbzwxgj0pr3Vb0oaVQhI8MJ854

MAKE TABLE TENNIS GREAT AGAIN

TurboZ
01-27-2017, 08:27 PM
Privacy is the reason why EmRat is keeping his identity anonymous. May be until the time is right. I respect that. :)

11901

NextLevel
01-27-2017, 08:51 PM
Sure. I respect that too. And privacy is the reason he is not providing his years of experience or some estimate of his playing/coaching level? Really?


Privacy is the reason why EmRat is keeping his identity anonymous. May be until the time is right. I respect that. :)

11901

Shuki
01-27-2017, 10:37 PM
Welp, the thread kept getting bigger so I decided it was time to start reading before it was too late to catch up.

Great videos! Some of the tips I think would set me back a few steps but some of them are pretty good for starting players! Hopefully those beginners will understand which tips are things they shouldn't listen to, but probably not.

I think you should make a video telling students to pick and choose which tips to follow. Not every tip is for everyone.

Baal
01-27-2017, 11:04 PM
Its like learning to loop from Charlie Chan.

iammaru
01-28-2017, 08:49 AM
I think emrat is just a normal table tennis player who creates youtube videos with information gathered from all kinds of sources (maybe internet, forums, friends... etc.) I don't think he is a high level player/coach. I may be wrong but that's what I think. I've seen/heard some exact things that he said on various tt forums and articles.
He seems to be obsessed with the idea of some Chinese secrets to be superior in table tennis. This myth (is it?) is pretty popular here in Vietnam, although they don't agree about the exact secret, some says the Chinese rubbers, some says the technique, but they believe that the Chinese know things about table tennis that the rest of the world doesn't.

Baal
01-28-2017, 03:12 PM
I think emrat is just a normal table tennis player who creates youtube videos with information gathered from all kinds of sources (maybe internet, forums, friends... etc.) I don't think he is a high level player/coach. I may be wrong but that's what I think. I've seen/heard some exact things that he said on various tt forums and articles.
He seems to be obsessed with the idea of some Chinese secrets to be superior in table tennis. This myth (is it?) is pretty popular here in Vietnam, although they don't agree about the exact secret, some says the Chinese rubbers, some says the technique, but they believe that the Chinese know things about table tennis that the rest of the world doesn't.

Yes, it is clear what you say. Of course this is coupled in the case of Emrat with really strange beliefs about what the rest of the world DOESN'T know. What is funny is that he thinks he has discovered the secret knowledge.

I've traveled to China and visited a provincial training center for kids in Wuhan*. One thing that was obvious, the single biggest part of the Chinese "secret" is turning large numbers of kids in various places around the country into essentially professional players subjected to incredibly intense training from about age 10 on, and then selecting from the best of the best of this group. It also helps to have a centralized national training facility with coaches, trainers, strength coaches, sports psychologists etc. That will get results. People looking for a single secret ingredient will not find it.

* A guy who had trained as kid at that facility later reached the peak of his playing career as sort of a low-level province team member, and later came to the US to coach in my city (he was about 21 or so at the time). He had all sorts of problems with the person who brought him here to coach his kid (a long story in itself, not very pleasant). My wife and I helped him out several times, eventually found him a place to live on his own for a few months and we became very close. After about a year or so he returned to China, where I visited him a couple of times. He took me to visit the places he had trained. It was fun. But sadly for this guy, he has had some problems finding things to do back there because the schools he went to as a kid were essentially TT schools, and his life skills have been somewhat limited, and at this point he wants nothing to do with TT.

Baal
01-28-2017, 03:20 PM
I met another kid here who had just started the university where I teach (this was about 5 years ago). Until age 13 he had been at one of these provincial training facilities in Xiamen in Fujian province. At about age 13-14, his mom got concerned for him and he transferred to regular schools where he did well. His parents are reasonably well off and he was able to eventually attend university in the US (where I teach). That is somewhat unusual at the undergraduate level because of the costs. He did really well, earned a BS in petroleum engineering (he couldn't have picked worse timing for that, though) and is now getting a MS in computer science. First time I played with him he was about 2200-2300 without having picked up a paddle in over 18 months. He had perfect Chinese technique. He still plays about 10 times a year at most. For awhile there we would play about twice a month.

The point being, though, that this guy was smart enough to escape from ping pong jail in time to do other things with his life. I learned a lot about how they trained kids from him.

NextLevel
01-28-2017, 03:28 PM
Yes, it is clear what you say. Of course this is coupled in the case of Emrat with really strange beliefs about what the rest of the world DOESN'T know. What is funny is that he thinks he has discovered the secret knowledge.

I've traveled to China and visited a provincial training center for kids in Wuhan*. One thing that was obvious, the single biggest part of the Chinese "secret" is turning large numbers of kids in various places around the country into essentially professional players subjected to incredibly intense training from about age 10 on, and then selecting from the best of the best of this group. It also helps to have a centralized national training facility with coaches, trainers, strength coaches, sports psychologists etc. That will get results. People looking for a single secret ingredient will not find it.

* A guy who had trained as kid at that facility later reached the peak of his playing career as sort of a low-level province team member, and later came to the US to coach in my city (he was about 21 or so at the time). He had all sorts of problems with the person who brought him here to coach his kid (a long story in itself, not very pleasant). My wife and I helped him out several times, eventually found him a place to live on his own for a few months and we became very close. After about a year or so he returned to China, where I visited him a couple of times. He took me to visit the places he had trained. It was fun. But sadly for this guy, he has had some problems finding things to do back there because the schools he went to as a kid were essentially TT schools, and his life skills have been somewhat limited, and at this point he wants nothing to do with TT.

This is one of the best posts ever written about the supposedly secret Chinese approach to table tennis.

NextLevel
01-28-2017, 03:29 PM
I met another kid here who had just started the university where I teach (this was about 5 years ago). Until age 13 he had been at one of these provincial training facilities in Xiamen in Fujian province. At about age 13-14, his mom got concerned for him and he transferred to regular schools where he did well. His parents are reasonably well off and he was able to eventually attend university in the US (where I teach). That is somewhat unusual at the undergraduate level because of the costs. He did really well, earned a BS in petroleum engineering (he couldn't have picked worse timing for that, though) and is now getting a MS in computer science. First time I played with him he was about 2200-2300 without having picked up a paddle in over 18 months. He had perfect Chinese technique. He still plays about 10 times a year at most. For awhile there we would play about twice a month.

The point being, though, that this guy was smart enough to escape from ping pong jail in time to do other things with his life. I learned a lot about how they trained kids from him.

And so is this one. Says a lot about the forced allocation of human resources.

Baal
01-28-2017, 03:37 PM
One thing the second guy told me is that these days at a lot of the facilities in China they are giving better attention to schooling. He and his mom were thinking at the time that he was one of the lower-half of players at his age at this provincial team (there were a lot of them) and that his province was weaker than a lot of the others, so what was the point of it? The comparison that comes to my mind, I suppose, is basketball in the US. There is a great documentary film, made in 1994, called Hoop Dreams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_Dreams

These kids were betting everything on the idea that they would eventually make it into the NBA. They didn't. They ended up ok in the end, but it was not easy for them. In China I think they realized that they need to take better care of the kids who don't move on.

TurboZ
01-28-2017, 03:49 PM
I think emrat is just a normal table tennis player who creates youtube videos with information gathered from all kinds of sources (maybe internet, forums, friends... etc.) I don't think he is a high level player/coach....

True. I believe he had clearly mentioned it in his first post "...As I'm not a pro player, these tips may be not applicable to all of the level. If you are already at a very high level, you could find these tutorials not helpful, however I think it would be useful for beginner and early-intermediate player..."

SchemeSC
01-28-2017, 04:09 PM
True. I believe he had clearly mentioned it in his first post "...As I'm not a pro player, these tips may be not applicable to all of the level. If you are already at a very high level, you could find these tutorials not helpful, however I think it would be useful for beginner and early-intermediate player..."

Except they are NOT useful for most beginning and early-intermediate players and can actually be harmful without proper context. I tried to give some concrete examples earlier in the thread about how the type of information found in Emrat's videos can be damaging, but the prevailing attitude here is "Oh, you can just take the advice or leave it. No harm done! Everybody wins!"

I understand that at the end of the day, I am the one that is ultimately resonsable for my own game. But there are people out there without access to quality coaching who will put way too much stock into these types of videos and be led down the wrong path with lots of wrong ideas. I feel bad for them, because I've been there.

UpSideDownCarl
01-28-2017, 04:15 PM
True. I believe he had clearly mentioned it in his first post "...As I'm not a pro player, these tips may be not applicable to all of the level. If you are already at a very high level, you could find these tutorials not helpful, however I think it would be useful for beginner and early-intermediate player..."

And yet, the idea of how he describes holding the racket with index finger and thumb, starting relaxed and applying pressure to the grip timed with the impact is pretty advanced. Not the relaxed part. Maybe not all the details of how you use the index finger and thumb But certainly the idea of timing pressure to the grip with the contact is decently advanced. And the suggestions on how the grip switches are pretty advanced too and perhaps are better left to the unconscious. Because, when you switch your wrist and forearm for FH or BH most of those subtle adjustments of grip happen without you even thinking about it or realizing it.

In fact, if you take a high level player who says he does not change his grip and film him switching from FH to BH and back, you will be able to see when you freeze the film, that the grip has switched. Even if you film a high level player hitting

a) a crosscourt hook,
b) a straight crosscourt loop and
c) a down the line fade

you will see subtle and not so subtle shifts in grip for the different contact points of each shot. We do this without thinking about it or even fully realizing we are doing it.

So, this video that started the thread, at least, is not beginner material. But it is good information for someone ready for it. In the end, even the pressure applied on contact becomes part of muscle memory and is not done consciously. But that is exactly what training is for. To get good habits into muscle memory.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

NextLevel
01-28-2017, 04:28 PM
Here we go again... SchemeSC, Carl, unless you have something new to say, please....


If you don't get it by now....
You will never never ever get it...
Ooooooooo....

UpSideDownCarl
01-28-2017, 04:49 PM
Here we go again... SchemeSC, Carl, unless you have something new to say, please....


If you don't get it by now....
You will never never ever get it...
Ooooooooo....

Doh!


https://youtu.be/kgDORvds824


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

NextLevel
01-28-2017, 05:27 PM
Doh!


https://youtu.be/kgDORvds824


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Really to the tune of this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbaSh8i5eyE

TTFrenzy
01-28-2017, 05:34 PM
Very interesting story Baal. An interesting "anecdote story" which completely destroys the "myth" about chinese secrets is what a junior team mate of George Fragkoulis told me about him

For those who dont know him, he played and performed really well some years ago, against Flore clearly in the last minute because one of A team members was injured a few hours before the match.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3TbkL8wgFQ



Fragkoulis was a promising and very talented player and still is I think he still plays in Pro A or Pro B in France and wanted to pursue a professional carreer. He had to face extreme favoritism and nepotism inside the Greek NT and his relationships with the federation were really bad.

At one point he decided to visit China for a few months with another junior national member to learn "better" "advanced" training methods and chinese "secrets". His expectations were quickly destroyed and got extremely disappointed as he saw that the training was extremely simple and "boring" for european mentality. Thousands of balls to perfect the basics in multi balls and countless hours of executing the same serve/receive/stroke over and over till perfection .

He thought that just because he paid tons of money to the academy that he will receive excellent training quality and that the coaches will be over his head, giving him "pro chinese" advice. Hilarious isnt it? At least for me it is :P

A similar story is waldner's first visit to china, he even thought about quitting and getting back to sweden but he decided to stay and continue training out of pure stubbornness. You watch him tell the story in 07:15 of the bragden documentary. Erik lindh on the other hand, thought the place was a paradise because they eat sleep and train all day. So its also a matter of personal taste and many good questions arise, as of how can you keep youngsters with different personalities motivated to play again and again. Xiao Zhan also stated in wttc 2013 that its very important to keep the kids interested in playing the game

UpSideDownCarl
01-28-2017, 06:32 PM
Relentless persistence in practicing and developing the basics, very simple practice done for hours on end, totally makes sense to me. And to me this also sounds like heaven. Too bad, at 51, with a family to support and some of the normal speed bumps of life and one that is beyond normal, I won't have access to that kind of training. :)

But if I had limitless resources, I would do 4 hour lessons 5 days a week.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Shuki
01-28-2017, 07:27 PM
Drills are so hard for me to do. Not enough stimuli. My coach knows this and changes the drills extremely quickly compared to her other students.

Once, she noticed that I would lose focus doing simple hitting to the same spot drills and I'd just miss when I shouldn't.
So she had me hit down the line with another student. I don't as to do this until we got 500 in a row without missing. And to ensure we didn't just dink it, she played music and told us to keep the pace to the musics timing. The very first try we succeeded in getting to 500.

She said the only reason I could do it was because I needed to be motivated to get to the next drill somehow. So with the ultimatum of having to hit for hours trying to get 500 and failing, it was much easier


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

UpSideDownCarl
01-28-2017, 08:40 PM
There are many ways to work on the basics:


Irregular multiball:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQrjb3BpbVM

Table-tennis-biathlon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQqgilqKulM

All our videos you can find here:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVnpFnciKxAPpNPbnQa_vwQ


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Der_Echte
01-29-2017, 05:49 AM
I feel bad for them, because I've been there.

Ringer has been there, done that, and gotten the free T-Shirt every year for almost a decade. Believe him everyone, although by this time if no one believes SchemeSC they should go to blazes.

TurboZ
01-29-2017, 11:55 AM
Except they are NOT useful for most beginning and early-intermediate players and can actually be harmful without proper context. I tried to give some concrete examples earlier in the thread about how the type of information found in Emrat's videos can be damaging, but the prevailing attitude here is "Oh, you can just take the advice or leave it. No harm done! Everybody wins!"

I understand that at the end of the day, I am the one that is ultimately resonsable for my own game. But there are people out there without access to quality coaching who will put way too much stock into these types of videos and be led down the wrong path with lots of wrong ideas. I feel bad for them, because I've been there.


May be I have watched so many "Big Secret" and "Conspiracy" videos from youtude like UFOs, Dark Side of the Moon, 911, What is hidden deep in Arctic, Reptilian....so I won't get serious about EmRat's work and put them into the same category especially seeing his use of all the the eye catching titles and bold color scheme. As he had already disclosed that he is not any pro player or pro coach from day 1 so I will just treat his video as such. They are some TT lover's idea at best and who likes to catch peoples attention with fancy titles. Really does not worth causing so much upsets. After all whether his method helps beginner or not are quotes of his words, not mine. :cool:

NextLevel
01-29-2017, 12:20 PM
May be I have watched so many "Big Secret" and "Conspiracy" videos from youtude like UFOs, Dark Side of the Moon, 911, What is hidden deep in Arctic, Reptilian....so I won't get serious about EmRat's work and put them into the same category especially seeing his use of all the the eye catching titles and bold color scheme. As he had already disclosed that he is not any pro player or pro coach from day 1 so I will just treat his video as such. They are some TT lover's idea at best and who likes to catch peoples attention with fancy titles. Really does not worth causing so much upsets. After all whether his method helps beginner or not are quotes of his words, not mine. :cool:

TurboZ, we get it. Strongly disagree with you. Many people have written what you wrote already so please let's not go around in circles. He never said he was not a pro coach as he claims to have students and that is no excuse not to state his playing and coaching level. His words can be wrong so I want your opinions on his words not for you to hide behind them. Thanks.

Suga D
01-29-2017, 07:10 PM
May be I have watched so many "Big Secret" and "Conspiracy" videos from youtude like UFOs, Dark Side of the Moon, 911, What is hidden deep in Arctic, Reptilian....so I won't get serious about EmRat's work and put them into the same category especially seeing his use of all the the eye catching titles and bold color scheme. As he had already disclosed that he is not any pro player or pro coach from day 1 so I will just treat his video as such. They are some TT lover's idea at best and who likes to catch peoples attention with fancy titles. Really does not worth causing so much upsets. After all whether his method helps beginner or not are quotes of his words, not mine. :cool:

Though I'm totally with you, don't waste your energy.
Actually i'm a bit disappointed. I believe EmRat must at least have read through this thread and chooses to remain silent and doesn't find it necessary to answer. So maybe we shouldn't bother too much either.
Life's too short to spend it with too much negativity.
But I'll let the music speak.

https://youtu.be/2KP27OLkg2Y



There are many ways to work on the basics:




Quote Originally Posted by 3Ttabletennis View Post
Irregular multiball:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQrjb3BpbVM

Table-tennis-biathlon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQqgilqKulM

All our videos you can find here:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVnpFnciKxAPpNPbnQa_vwQ



Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Excellent Carl, i think we've been spending waaaayyy too much attention and time for negative things.
Thanks for bringing something positive!
I like your approach!
[Emoji106]

songdavid98
01-30-2017, 03:05 AM
At least he gives credit where credit is due.

11960


He actually made another video. He speaks French too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggTHP1LeFDA

He actually makes footage of himself, but only of himself drawing.
He does bash on European stuff quite a lot, to the point where it is kind of uncomfortable.

His emphasis on acceleration makes sense.

NextLevel
01-30-2017, 03:36 AM
His emphasis on acceleration makes sense.

To his credit, he has adjusted to a few of the criticisms made of him.

A lot of it sounds good but a lot of it misses the point IMO. To be fair, I was taught using a different paradigm that I think is more practically insightful than the detailed method he is using to analyze the issue.

EmRatThich
01-30-2017, 10:07 AM
Here I am.

Firstly, I didn't mean to criticize or racist the table tennis training of the 2 systems. I just want to emphasize the difference between the coaching in China and European at the LOW LEVEL OF COACHING ! For me, this level of coaching is very important for new table tennis players. At higher level or national coaching level, I didn't mention it in my coaching video. May be my English is not good enough so I have used some words "too criticism" ? But I really respect any table tennis coach in the world. So please don't judge that I disrespect the Western coaches.

Second, for the context. I've said before, with my chinese friend, we have learnt many coaching tips on the coaching videos (in chinese). He is also my partner in my daily training. We have applied it in the training and coaching. I've discovered that it's worth sharing these knowledges. There are many many Chinese coaches out there, and there are many many good tips that new players can learn. I focus on new players, developing players ! In my experiences of coaching new players, I see that in somes clubs (not professional club), the coaching is not good. It seems that many players here are "professional", so they are already very lucky to get a very good coaching, so they can ignore my videos.

Third, I do coach young players. And you want to reveal my identity and my players. I've the same problem in my previous video. (I've removed these videos "How to serve short"). As I have showed up the identity of another coaches, and the coach has asked me to remove the video.It can damage the reputation of the coach. When I read your comments, I now understand this problem. No matter how good you are, there are always some players who tried to put you down, without any respect. I've learnt this lesson about it. So what is the point of reveal the identity ? In this internet era, "privacy" is the most important thing ! So if some players don't believe my coaching tips, it's OK ! but it's not a good idea to reveal the privacy in these Youtube. It can easily affect my real life.

I think that it's better now to discuss about the table tennis. Feel free to criticize my tips.
I've learnt alot from your constructive comments. I will improve the quality of the coaching videos.

Takkyu_wa_inochi
01-30-2017, 10:20 AM
@EmRatThich
I like very much the babe on your pic

UpSideDownCarl
01-30-2017, 11:41 AM
Second, for the context. I've said before, with my chinese friend, we have learnt many coaching tips on the coaching videos (in chinese).

Question. Have you been to China to train? If yes, for how long?

Because the statement quoted above makes it sound like you are simply talking about studying videos rather than actually training in China.

If you feel revealing your teaching would harm you, how come on line coaches like the ones from Ping Skills and TTEdge have had such good success revealing their credentials and who they are?

It seems most of the information you present simply comes from other online sources that you repackage as your own. Is this true?

NextLevel
01-30-2017, 12:58 PM
Here I am.

Firstly, I didn't mean to criticize or racist the table tennis training of the 2 systems. I just want to emphasize the difference between the coaching in China and European at the LOW LEVEL OF COACHING ! For me, this level of coaching is very important for new table tennis players. At higher level or national coaching level, I didn't mention it in my coaching video. May be my English is not good enough so I have used some words "too criticism" ? But I really respect any table tennis coach in the world. So please don't judge that I disrespect the Western coaches.

Second, for the context. I've said before, with my chinese friend, we have learnt many coaching tips on the coaching videos (in chinese). He is also my partner in my daily training. We have applied it in the training and coaching. I've discovered that it's worth sharing these knowledges. There are many many Chinese coaches out there, and there are many many good tips that new players can learn. I focus on new players, developing players ! In my experiences of coaching new players, I see that in somes clubs (not professional club), the coaching is not good. It seems that many players here are "professional", so they are already very lucky to get a very good coaching, so they can ignore my videos.

Third, I do coach young players. And you want to reveal my identity and my players. I've the same problem in my previous video. (I've removed these videos "How to serve short"). As I have showed up the identity of another coaches, and the coach has asked me to remove the video.It can damage the reputation of the coach. When I read your comments, I now understand this problem. No matter how good you are, there are always some players who tried to put you down, without any respect. I've learnt this lesson about it. So what is the point of reveal the identity ? In this internet era, "privacy" is the most important thing ! So if some players don't believe my coaching tips, it's OK ! but it's not a good idea to reveal the privacy in these Youtube. It can easily affect my real life.

I think that it's better now to discuss about the table tennis. Feel free to criticize my tips.
I've learnt alot from your constructive comments. I will improve the quality of the coaching videos.

I know exactly what you mean when you say you want to protect your privacy. That said, it is unfair not to either provide an estimate of your playing level or the level at which you coach or your number of years teaching/coaching etc. From what you have written, it doesn't sound like you have played at a high level or even a decent intermediate level. It sounds like you have watched a lot of video and are sharing what is in the videos you have watched. I know people who do a lot of this, who both speak and don't speak Chinese and a lot of them do not truly understand what is being said because they don't play at a high enough level to appreciate the nuances.

None of us here are pro players. Some of us here have worked with professional coaches. Many of us know what it was like to take tips from advanced online videos and try to apply them to our game and end up with mixed results, rarely positive, often negative. So when someone comes offering "Chinese secrets", we would like to know what kind of understanding and experience the person is bringing to what they say.

IF you can't post video, you can at least share your experience playing table tennis and competing. Or the results you have achieved with your students. I have a friend whose highest playing level is to me relatively low (USATT 1500), but his credibility comes from coaching and training players at my level(USATT 1800-2200). Like you (as far as I can tell), he watches a lot of video and looks for "Secrets". Like you, he sometimes likes to put down good players who play in a way that is different from what he finds in the "secrets". Since he coaches respectable players, I listen to what he has to say, but I place some of it in the context of my experience working with coaches and playing amateur tournaments as well as coaching my students. I think he sometimes recommends things without truly understanding how a player develops that skill because he never experienced that development process. He also likes to talk about how Chinese technique is this and European technique is that, but the truth is that when you understand technique, you don't see Chinese or European, you see high level technique, acceptable technique and unacceptable technique.

This friend has gone around creating a lot of lower rated players who go around mocking the technique of players far better than them because they understand the Chinese secrets that these better players do not. They don't see that good technique is not about doing what the Chinese do - it is about doing healthy things that produce quality shots.

Therefore, it would be good to know whether you have developed into a good player or you have helped others develop into a good player and what that process was like. Most of your viewers are older players, but older players often have different issues from children. My concern is that without placing how players improve in context, many of these "secrets" you are teaching will give people the wrong impression of what is important in table tennis.

Hopefully, you will share a bio of your playing and coaching experience soon. Thanks.

tropical
01-30-2017, 04:42 PM
All ...

Instead of challenging to the "doubtful" tips from the OP or bs comments here I've decided to try using fingers for my forehand looping (not backhand yet) in the last 2 days. Well .. it is very hard! Hard to control and be consistent. I guess I am in the 50's (2000 level player) so it is tough to teach an old dog hard tricks. BUT .. I've found the forehand loop was stronger and spinier. My practice partner didn't know I changed the grip (I didn't tell him) and could only block 3 times before the ball popped out of the table. Hey folks .. it works! Then I watched Ma Long's videos from someone here demonstrating the finger technique and am now convinced emratthich's (translated: I like very much) tips are valid. Hey folks .. let's give him some credits for bringing this topic up.

ajtatosmano2
01-30-2017, 04:54 PM
I am reading Li Xiadong's (former CNT coach) coaching seminary in Luxemburg 2015. He says some interesting thing, sometime I will summarize the most interesting parts. As a snack, here is a small fact: he says that chinese top players bench press with 50-60 kg, some of them can even with 100 kg.
Edit: and he agrees with nearly everything what EmRath said about the grip and looping.:p

Musaab
01-30-2017, 05:02 PM
His last video only is enough , no one as far as I know ever showed a scientific article about forehand topspin in a tutorial video. People need to relax and stop thinking that ONLY their experience worth sharing.

Archosaurus
01-30-2017, 05:13 PM
His last video only is enough , no one as far as I know ever showed a scientific article about forehand topspin in a tutorial video. People need to relax and stop thinking that ONLY their experience worth sharing.
Could you now translate this into English?

tropical
01-30-2017, 05:27 PM
His last video only is enough , no one as far as I know ever showed a scientific article about forehand topspin in a tutorial video. People need to relax and stop thinking that ONLY their experience worth sharing.

Is this your experience so you want to share it with us? Seem contradicting, not?

NextLevel
01-30-2017, 05:59 PM
All ...

Instead of challenging to the "doubtful" tips from the OP or bs comments here I've decided to try using fingers for my forehand looping (not backhand yet) in the last 2 days. Well .. it is very hard! Hard to control and be consistent. I guess I am in the 50's (2000 level player) so it is tough to teach an old dog hard tricks. BUT .. I've found the forehand loop was stronger and spinier. My practice partner didn't know I changed the grip (I didn't tell him) and could only block 3 times before the ball popped out of the table. Hey folks .. it works! Then I watched Ma Long's videos from someone here demonstrating the finger technique and am now convinced emratthich's (translated: I like very much) tips are valid. Hey folks .. let's give him some credits for bringing this topic up.

His tips are hardly doubtful, but are definitely not for beginners unless you consider a 2000 level player like yourself to be a beginner - anyone who has followed table tennis to some degree has heard something like them in one context or another. THe first time I started seriously messing with my grip was when I went to Nigeria and a coach told me that I Was holding the paddle wrong and showed me 5 or 6 different grips, all with a focus on the thumb and index finger when I asked him how he had such great touch and said that my grip was categorically wrong. I was already USATT 1700 at this time.

Here is Ben Larcombe on grip (there is a video there as well). Ben Larcombe is easily 2000+.

http://www.experttabletennis.com/grip-experimentation/

Here is a Henzell video and you can see the way he asks you to keep the grip and what he does when he encourages you to do it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3inKrRCDiCY

When I asked my coach (Brett Clarke), who takes a zen approach to table tennis, he said that no one could honestly report to you precisely which fingers helped with which shots even if they tried their best to. What you do is try stuff, look at your ball quality and make adjustments over time. When I argued with someone on mytt over how to hold the paddle correctly,Brett told me that there are lots of options for grips and even discredited ones can be used. He said that these things will become clearer over time with personal experience and that while there are general rules, there is no magic way. Since he does believe in whippy strokes, this was the video he made on grip tension:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooOY8AqK60c

One day, we had a laugh because a famous pro (currently top 20 and was top 10) was using a grip that had an element that Brett said was not correct (and no, I do not mean Danny Seemiller).

Are these interesting issues? Yes, especially for advanced players. Are the things that beginners should focus on? Not really. Many players get to a high level both in China before these issues become relevant for them. They are usually things that players can try to work on their output with the feedback and guidance of a coach, not just random tips people share. A good coach with experience trying this kind of stuff will actually talk you through some of the common errors and the process so you don't get frustrated when or if it doesn't pan out for you.

Since I have spent 4 years working on grip issues, I can tell people that you need to be relaxed enough to facilitate whip and be flexible enough to create racket angles that give you multiple options for handling spin. With practice and experimentation, it will come together. But what is relaxed enough? Other that Brett's video on being relaxed enough to play whippy strokes, I really don't have a more precise answer. I remember someone focusing on the three lower fingers based on the advice of a Nittaku site, and then another player said that Stellan Bengston had taught him with the three lower fingers as a focus and I reviewed my grip and noticed that I did a lot of things with the three lower fingers that I often ignored (likely because I had already heard the focus on relaxing them and using the index finger and thumb). And even using the index finger and thumb, I had to develop strength in them over time. And later I noticed that I sometimes had better shots when I reintroduced the bottom three fingers for certain shots. Now, I have my own grip which is a regular shakehands with my own modifications which is informed by the experience of hitting the ball in various ways to get different effects.

So experiment with your grip. But don't be fooled that some Chinese secret will automatically make it better, especially if you are a lower level player. Advanced players, at least USATT 1600, are the ones who will begin to gain the most from grip experimentation.

Baal
01-30-2017, 06:23 PM
NL is right, as is Brett. Kong Linghui and Zhang Jike have grips noticeably different from Ma Long. Wang Liqin held his blade very far down the paddle, unusually so (so did Cheng Yihua for people in US who remember him).

Jorgen Persson wraps his index finger around the wing (so does Karakasevic, so did Bengtsson; and not that it matters for crap so do I, I was actually taught that in around 1970 and have never been able to really change it).

Timo Boll keeps his forefinger really high when he returns serve and then slides it back down.

Here is one thing I know from personal experience though. Messing around with your grip can possibly help you but it will also scramble your game up like crazy while you are figuring it out, and can send you into the 9th circle of table tennis hell. Not somewhere you should go without knowing that it is a difficult trip.

Another thing is that grip can affect how your feet move!!! I can use a more orthodox grip and hit the ball just fine if I am just sitting their looping a ball blocked back to the same place all the time. However, unless my grip suits my forehand ideally (which I get with the Persson grip) I have a tendency to not move my feet in an aggressive way. Consequently I attack with my BH instead of with my FH, especially on third balls, and none of that is good. It is very very bad, actually. On the other hand, I do tend to sacrifice banana flicks. For me that is a good trade-of, maybe not for anyone else.

NextLevel
01-30-2017, 06:40 PM
NL is right, as is Brett. Kong Linghui and Zhang Jike have grips noticeably different from Ma Long. Wang Liqin held his blade very far down the paddle, unusually so (so did Cheng Yihua for people in US who remember him).

Jorgen Persson wraps his index finger around the wing (so does Karakasevic, so did Bengtsson; and not that it matters for crap so do I, I was actually taught that in around 1970 and have never been able to really change it).

Timo Boll keeps his forefinger really high when he returns serve and then slides it back down.

Here is one thing I know from personal experience though. Messing around with your grip can possibly help you but it will also scramble your game up like crazy while you are figuring it out, and can send you into the 9th circle of table tennis hell. Not somewhere you should go without knowing that it is a difficult trip.

Another thing is that grip can affect how your feet move!!! I can use a more orthodox grip and hit the ball just fine if I am just sitting their looping a ball blocked back to the same place all the time. However, unless my grip suits my forehand ideally (which I get with the Persson grip) I have a tendency to not move my feet in an aggressive way. Consequently I attack with my BH instead of with my FH, especially on third balls, and none of that is good. It is very very bad, actually. On the other hand, I do tend to sacrifice banana flicks. For me that is a good trade-of, maybe not for anyone else.

I definitely agree - I have grips that mean I can play forehands with minimal body rotation but make my backhand feel bad. And the reverse of course, The grip I use now makes my backhand feel natural, but makes me more likely to play hooking loops with my forehand if I am rushed or just swinging freely. But I have practiced enough to make quick minor adjustments to get into my preferred grips for forehand flicks and pushes, though I still prefer to push with my backhand on the forehand side like Dima. Grips affect all those things, and affect my comfort playing various strokes in various positions.

But unless you have tried this stuff, you might try some random advice from someone on the internet and wonder why your forehand flick is gone or your backhand loop is missing. In fact, some people unconsciously miss shots and have bad days and wonder what happened not realizing that the grip they used that day may have been different from their usual grip for unknown reasons that they never realized quickly enough to fix the issue. An advanced player can figure such things out because they know the process. And usually, an advanced player with proper technique will often benefit and be able to manage the tradeoffs. But some poor beginner out there will be working on this stuff thinking that this is important for their TT. DEfinitely not when they are beginners and only if a coach thinks this is what is keeping them from the next level.

UpSideDownCarl
01-30-2017, 07:42 PM
BUT .. I've found the forehand loop was stronger and spinier. My practice partner didn't know I changed the grip (I didn't tell him) and could only block 3 times before the ball popped out of the table. Hey folks .. it works!

I am glad you tried it and I am glad you found it works. I have never questioned whether the tips he presents, the stuff about table tennis technique are good for someone.

I have been using that basic method for gripping for years. As I said in an early post, I have heard at least 7 western coaches explain this information to me. I am not so sure it is Chinese at all. But I am sure it is one of many useful ways of holding the racket.

My question has more to do with the source.

1) Is this a person who does play and coach?
2) Is this a person who is mid-level, low-level, high-level?
3) Is this a person who has simply compiled information through internet sources without really playing, but with resources to find good information?

It is totally possible for a good coach to be not such a high level player, especially if he/she once was and now is simply older. But someone with good eyes and a feel for the game can coach at a high level even if they cannot play at such a high level.

Also, if the information is primarily compiled from good sources on the internet, which it actually looks like it is, I would not really have much of a problem with that if the YouTuber is honest about the fact and credited his sources.

In the video above, Larry Hodges hardly seems to be a source for Chinese coaching secrets.

And the issue, to me seems, if someone is presenting info, even if it is well researched and taken from good sources, but is presenting himself as the source, then knowing some valid version of the guys credentials would be useful. And if these are all sourced from other places, listing the sources would make the presenter seem more credible. Not listing sources and hiding credentials seems like there is an ethical issue at stake here.

But NextLevel gave a great option. A written bio which lists EmRat's experience as a coach and/or a player would actually be fine.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

UpSideDownCarl
01-30-2017, 09:05 PM
Just some info. On this forum, presented by people from all over the world, I have seen information on:

-Racket speed and acceleration.
-The idea of touch to hold the ball on the rubber longer to get more spin.
-The idea that, for a developing player, the first thing one should work on is the skill to generate more spin.
-An all wood racket with good feeling, good dwell time and decent flex that is in the All+/Off- speed range (not too fast) is ideal to use for a developing player.
-That in a stroke you want to use your legs, your hips, core rotation and weight transfer, not just the arm.
-The information that it can be useful to hold the racket primarily with the index finger and thumb.

Now most of these details are good simple information. They certainly are not secrets. And they don't come from any single origin. In fact many of them come from good biomechanics or a decent understanding of the actual sport of table tennis.

If you watch a baseball player swing at a ball, he will use, legs, hips, core rotation and weight transfer also. Same with a tennis player. They will also be very relaxed and add pop on contact. Same with a boxer. In any sport, tension makes you slower and less able to move. Even in standing this is the case. If you were simply standing upright and tensing your muscles and someone threw something at you, it would be harder for you to react and you would react slower than if you were standing relaxed.

But during the movement, on impact, contracting gives added force. Even if you watch a cat, like a cheetah, running, you can see how relaxed their body is and how, on impact with the ground, certain muscles contract to apply force into the ground to propel the animal forward with more power. The muscles that engage are specific, but if you try to do that consciously it will cause muscles that should not contract to contract and mess the process up. But the feeling of adding impact into the ball for TT or into the ground for the cheetah is likely useful, even if, once the correct pattern is learned, the process can happen without the doer being conscious of the action.

So most of these details are simply information and don't really come from a particular country, nationality, race or even species. The biomechanics of physical actions are pretty interesting to analyze. And you can improve your technique by understanding these things.

But I feel being careful with how you understand this kind of information or what source it comes from. Especially, trying to learn online, it is easy to misunderstand or partially understand something and end up doing something else that may not be so good for you. With a coach, in person, they can instantly see if you are doing what they meant or something different.

When Damien Provost showed me the info about applying pressure on contact, he held my arm as he moved my arm through the stroke and he applied the pressure and said "ptha, into the ball," as he applied pressure during contact. So it wasn't really words. But he got me to feel it. And the sound he made really felt like it matched the feeling of the pressure on contact. That kind of thing where the coach helps you feel something specific is really useful.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Musaab
01-30-2017, 09:57 PM
Is this your experience so you want to share it with us? Seem contradicting, not?

I don't see the contradiction, why are we all here on this forum anyway ? it is because of information sharing. So yeah, let everybody share what they have. This guy has some well-presented stuff,just let'em share that, end of story.

UpSideDownCarl
01-30-2017, 10:00 PM
By the way, for a human, walking fast, if you think about it, you can feel how you are relaxed and apply force into the ground without ever having thought about what to do. Learning a table tennis stroke may be more complicated. And you do want to learn certain things on a conscious level. But at a certain point you actually also need to forget about them and let muscle memory and your hours and hours of training speak for themself.

I studied movement theory with this guy named André Bernard who died in 2003. There was one particular class where he was talking about movement patterns and learning the pattern and educating your body on the pattern and giving your mind good images to help it learn the pattern. And there was this woman in the class who kept asking the same basic question for movement pattern after movement pattern. She kept asking what muscles were being used. And André was getting more and more frustrated because it was obvious to him that the question was a repeat and the fact that this woman kept asking the same question meant she had not understood his previous answers to the question.

In frustration he stood up from his chair and he said: "do you see that movement?" And he sat down and stood up a few more times and while doing the movement he said: "it takes approximately 180 muscles, synchronized and timed to perform this movement. If we were trying to think about which muscles to use when, we'd all be in serious trouble. But if you take the movement pattern and use the imagery, it can help your system understand the movement better and improve your performance of the movement. But in real movement, all those technical details need to be put on auto-pilot or you will be way too tense in trying to perform the movements."

Now, if I presented that information anonymously and neglected to list my source, but instead simply presented it because I was trying to make myself look like an authority the subject, it could open the door for many abuses of power that have been common in the online world.

If the information and images EmRat do help people there is something valuable there. But being more transparent with who he is and what his sources and qualifications are would really be useful to him and all his followers. And he can do that without revealing personal details by releasing information on his qualifications and his source material.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

tropical
01-30-2017, 10:30 PM
Folks ...

I was in this forum for a while but lurking more than contributing as I think playing table tennis requires physical trying not mental. Then this ERT (emratthich) post got me! Surprise? Well, yes, because other posters have failed to intrigue my curiosity and most of the time I see people here arguing nonsense.
I have never heard about good grip before. The 1st time I saw Danny Seemiller played I was shocked! Then I thought grip may be not an important part of playing. To tell the truth I've never had a formal training except watching videos from pros. Many years have been wasted on me I guess. I know I do not have a good grip because forehand flipping is not consistent, especially for heavy short spin serve. Now I can see the reason is that I do not allow enough momentum by allowing enough wrist motion to overcome the heavy under spin.
His videos can also be good for beginners. I disagree with some that said they are for more advance level players. I firmly believe in a good basic and fundamental skill should be had when a player is very young, when he/she starts out. As I (and you, too) got older I find changing habits is very hard and in the game my habits kick back and I become who I used to be.

NextLevel
01-30-2017, 10:57 PM
Folks ...

I was in this forum for a while but lurking more than contributing as I think playing table tennis requires physical trying not mental. Then this ERT (emratthich) post got me! Surprise? Well, yes, because other posters have failed to intrigue my curiosity and most of the time I see people here arguing nonsense.
I have never heard about good grip before. The 1st time I saw Danny Seemiller played I was shocked! Then I thought grip may be not an important part of playing. To tell the truth I've never had a formal training except watching videos from pros. Many years have been wasted on me I guess. I know I do not have a good grip because forehand flipping is not consistent, especially for heavy short spin serve. Now I can see the reason is that I do not allow enough momentum by allowing enough wrist motion to overcome the heavy under spin.
His videos can also be good for beginners. I disagree with some that said they are for more advance level players. I firmly believe in a good basic and fundamental skill should be had when a player is very young, when he/she starts out. As I (and you, too) got older I find changing habits is very hard and in the game my habits kick back and I become who I used to be.

Ah, that helps explain why find this kind of stuff fascinating - you don't seem to have ever had a conversation with a higher level player about table tennis. Is your 2000 level estimate of your play from tournaments or is it from casual play?

Shuki
01-31-2017, 12:27 AM
Ah, that helps explain why find this kind of stuff fascinating - you don't seem to have ever had a conversation with a higher level player about table tennis. Is your 2000 level estimate of your play from tournaments or is it from casual play?

I guarantee it's his own judgement on how he thinks he plays. Any player that's actually at 2000+ level, would have done a tournament to play that level of player by now. He lives in the United States, either he beats players at that level and would have a rating, loses to that level, or has never played that level.

Baal
01-31-2017, 12:30 AM
If you optimize your grip for one thing, something else will suffer. So you have to make some choices, including how much to change your grip from side to side, because that entails some tradeoffs too. Different players find different solutions to this, including a good handle shape for what they do. This is true even within the top 20 in the world.

You need something that works but there has to be zen to it. If yor are thinking too much, you will be a mess. That is the problem with tightening just before hitting. If that isnt natural, it is anti-zen. You can train it relentlessly until it become natural. If you dont and have to think too much, it will hurt you. That is the choice.

pgpg
01-31-2017, 12:46 AM
My 0.02$: I watched a couple of videos, mostly the ones about grip, I think. On the plus side, there are a couple of tips that somehow I never encountered before or did not understand, perhaps because I don't hang out with high level players enough, or because just reading about 'grip pressure' on several occasions somehow never clicked. There is something to be said for being able to find something simple that is a) important, b) easily understood, and c) somehow is not realized by a lot of players of a certain level. Think of it as a simple 'swing thought' from golf, or a mental picture/concept from Brett Clarke ('bear', 'whip' etc.).

On the negatives - it takes forever to get to the point in any single video, narration is a bit annoying and too dramatic (the music! the visuals! generalizations!). These videos could be 1/10 as long to get the same point across, I think.

Baal
01-31-2017, 01:38 AM
Something else about grips and trade-offs. You sacrifice a little bit of whip motion and therefore a little bit of spin for stability in the stroke. If you are loose and tighten just before the contact, you are adding some variability -- degrees of freedom. If you get it just right the will really whip the ball. But you might be a bit wobbly. You need to know just how loose, and how much to tighten at just the right time, Or you can grip a little more securely, maybe not hit the ball like a world top 10, but be stable in a rally. Sometimes you have to work with what you've got.

As for the videos being too long, well Little Grasshopper, you can't rush a man who is revealing all of the Time Honored Secrets of the Mysterious East*. (Gong sounds off in the distance). A Wise Man needs ten times as much time as a normal person to get to the point**.

*of course in Kung Fu Panda, we learned that there is no secret ingredient.

** Actually not. Zen masters can get to the point with a single koan. You just need to figure out what it means.

tropical
01-31-2017, 02:47 AM
I guarantee it's his own judgement on how he thinks he plays. Any player that's actually at 2000+ level, would have done a tournament to play that level of player by now. He lives in the United States, either he beats players at that level and would have a rating, loses to that level, or has never played that level.

That is a big assumption.

tropical
01-31-2017, 02:48 AM
Ah, that helps explain why find this kind of stuff fascinating - you don't seem to have ever had a conversation with a higher level player about table tennis. Is your 2000 level estimate of your play from tournaments or is it from casual play?

I played US Open and other events 10 -15 years ago. Official rating is 1870. As I get older I do not want to compete anymore as I do not have strength to play a long round robin then get further. In my club I regularly beat 1900 and 2000 players.

Shuki
01-31-2017, 05:45 AM
That is a big assumption.

so is assuming you're a high level player and discrediting players that have proved themselves countless times.

Der_Echte
01-31-2017, 07:08 AM
tropical, you gunna get in on the action Sat PM? If my LA plans fall apart, I will be around Fri + Sat, but we will see.

I can see what a few good nuggets one has never paid attention to would turn a light on, I have had those moments and share them as much a I can.

Baal
01-31-2017, 11:51 AM
Folks ...

I know I do not have a good grip because forehand flipping is not consistent, especially for heavy short spin serve. Now I can see the reason is that I do not allow enough momentum by allowing enough wrist motion to overcome the heavy under spin.


OK, but if you make your grip better for the forehand flip, what are you giving up? Make no mistake about this, you are trading off something, including some stability in your stroke. As for flipping short heavy serves, that is a pretty low-reliability shot for people even a lot better than 2000 unless the serve is too high.

I'm not saying your grip (and mine and other people's) can't be improved. But trust me on this, I have spent a lot of time experimenting with it (many years), and it can send you off into a tailspin where you are fumbling with your racket and simply thinking too much. Now, the idea that one should increase thumb and forefinger grip at just the right moment is not new, and it can help with some shots, you may find it extremely challenging to implement on others. Last night I asked a 2500 player what he thought about it and he just shook his head and said it is better to concentrate on your body and your feet.

NextLevel
01-31-2017, 01:43 PM
OK, but if you make your grip better for the forehand flip, what are you giving up? Make no mistake about this, you are trading off something, including some stability in your stroke. As for flipping short heavy serves, that is a pretty low-reliability shot for people even a lot better than 2000 unless the serve is too high.

I'm not saying your grip (and mine and other people's) can't be improved. But trust me on this, I have spent a lot of time experimenting with it (many years), and it can send you off into a tailspin where you are fumbling with your racket and simply thinking too much. Now, the idea that one should increase thumb and forefinger grip at just the right moment is not new, and it can help with some shots, you may find it extremely challenging to implement on others. Last night I asked a 2500 player what he thought about it and he just shook his head and said it is better to concentrate on your body and your feet.

The idea of extra pinch at impact is something that you will naturally do if you are trying to make a whip pattern as you can't crack the whip without tightening the grip when you snap the forearm with a loose grip. For me the tightening is something that I don't think hard about and I just focus on the quality of the ball - the same thing is especially important when serving. In fact, one of the things I learned when I tried Brett's exercise with the grip whipping in the Advanced Mechanics video was that my grip was often looser than it needed to be. I didn't consciously change it, but found a different median over time.

Suga D
01-31-2017, 02:28 PM
Timo Boll keeps his forefinger really high when he returns serve and then slides it back down...



IIRC we´ve been talking about this a while ago on this thread here.
https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?14702-table-tennis-tips-quot-Increase-Spin-in-table-tennis-by-Chinese-coaching-quot/page8
Actually it´s a technique his coach Helmut Hampl has taught him...




When Timo pushes and returns serve, his forefinger seems higher up the blade than most other players. Has he always done that and is their an advantage to it and does he recommend that?

Also, what is the most common mistake he sees in serious amateur players? What is the best way to improve without training 6 hours per day?


This an invention of the Trainer Helmut Hampl called "Druckpunkttechnik" (tl: pressure point technique).
It is a controversial technique even in DTTB. Patrik Franziska uses it too.





@MaLongPower: Good One.
This is really interesting. I also hope Timo can elaborate on this.
I know a few players who have practiced under Helmut Hampl, like Christian Dreher, Jochen Kaiser, Philip Butterfass, Tobi Beck, Thomas Keinath or Arash Momeni, but none of them ever mentioned that term in front of me. Sounds like a well kept secret. ;)
I know the term 'Druckpunkttechnik' from Martial Arts and others, though. First time I hear this related to tabletennis.

Well anyway, here are my questions:

Firstly i'd like to ask Timo what he thinks would be necessary to uplift the image of tabletennis in europe away from a playground activity more to a professional sport.

2nd) since his Game is based so much on rotation, shouldn't on major events the best P-Balls available be used instead the ones from the company that sponsors/pays most?

Last question: if the top players were forced to use non boosted standard equipment does he think the world Ranking list would look different?

All the best, strength and health to him for the Olympic Games and the Future.
Thanks a lot for bringing us so many beautiful moments in tabletennis.


This an invention of the Trainer Helmut Hampl called "Druckpunkttechnik" (tl: pressure point technique).
It is a controversial technique even in DTTB. Patrik Franziska uses it too.


You can see the use clearly when Timo is receiving with the forehand. The indix finger is pointing upwards and is planted in the middle of the backhandrubber. This allows much more control while flicking and pushing. The downside is you need to adjust the grip afterwards.The grip in generel needs to be really lose and relaxed(racket pointing upwards in the starting position). Timo also has a special made thicker straight handle on his ALC which makes adjusting eazier.

Here is the reference form the book:Timo Boll My China
9523

UpSideDownCarl
01-31-2017, 03:39 PM
IIRC we´ve been talking about this a while ago on this thread here.
https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?14702-table-tennis-tips-quot-Increase-Spin-in-table-tennis-by-Chinese-coaching-quot/page8
Actually it´s a technique his coach Helmut Hampl has taught him...

Darn, Suga D, does this mean that German spies have successfully stolen Chinese secrets. Is that how these secrets get on TTDaily.

Okay, jokes aside, thanks Suga D for the great post.


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tropical
01-31-2017, 03:53 PM
tropical, you gunna get in on the action Sat PM? If my LA plans fall apart, I will be around Fri + Sat, but we will see.

I can see what a few good nuggets one has never paid attention to would turn a light on, I have had those moments and share them as much a I can.

Can you come to Topspin on Saturday around 3pm? There are quite a few good players 2000+ at my club. You are a good player as I can see Vincent can't block your loop, and he used to be a solid 2050-2100 player. I don't think I can beat you but hopefully can give you a good time playing my new chopping/pushing style on the back hand with my long pips. :o

UpSideDownCarl
01-31-2017, 03:59 PM
The idea of extra pinch at impact is something that you will naturally do if you are trying to make a whip pattern as you can't crack the whip without tightening the grip when you snap the forearm with a loose grip. For me the tightening is something that I don't think hard about and I just focus on the quality of the ball - the same thing is especially important when serving. In fact, one of the things I learned when I tried Brett's exercise with the grip whipping in the Advanced Mechanics video was that my grip was often looser than it needed to be. I didn't consciously change it, but found a different median over time.

This is a great post. And, specific to table tennis it actually makes the same exact point that André Bernard was making about images and movement patterns to improve a movement or action rather than over thinking the technical details of what your fingers, hand, wrist, forearm, elbow, upper arm, shoulder joint, left arm, torso, hips, legs, heels, toes.....are doing. There are ways to improve the whole movement pattern, and there are ways to improve specific things, like your grip, or the amount of forearm snap, or the timing of turning your hips, but, ultimately, when you play, these things are done as a result of a lot of training and getting all those details into muscle memory so that ultimately, when you take a shot, you are imaging the arc of the ball and where you are aiming the ball rather than thinking, "I have to open my wrist and contact the inside of the ball to fade loop to the BH corner. As I do that I need to be relaxed and whip, and exactly on impact, I need to add pressure."

Or, at least for me, when I am taking a shot, I have an image in my head of the shot, the ball trajectory, where I am placing the ball. Not the technical details of what I need to do to get that to happen.

It is true, in training, there are times and ways to work on these things. If I hadn't, my FH would still be the abominable pirouette that it used to be where my stroke finished with me facing the BH side of the table, the racket wrapped around my left shoulder like in tennis, and my elbow higher than my racket. [emoji2]

It is always good to spend some time working on fundamentals. But know HOW to work on changing certain aspects of your stroke, grip, stance, etc is at least as important. And ultimately you want to move these changes into muscle memory so that you can go back to imaging your actual shots while you make them.


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tropical
01-31-2017, 04:01 PM
OK, but if you make your grip better for the forehand flip, what are you giving up? Make no mistake about this, you are trading off something, including some stability in your stroke. As for flipping short heavy serves, that is a pretty low-reliability shot for people even a lot better than 2000 unless the serve is too high.

I'm not saying your grip (and mine and other people's) can't be improved. But trust me on this, I have spent a lot of time experimenting with it (many years), and it can send you off into a tailspin where you are fumbling with your racket and simply thinking too much. Now, the idea that one should increase thumb and forefinger grip at just the right moment is not new, and it can help with some shots, you may find it extremely challenging to implement on others. Last night I asked a 2500 player what he thought about it and he just shook his head and said it is better to concentrate on your body and your feet.

I think I only talked about my wrong grip and hoped that the new grip can help in developing a forehand flip better. I didn't venture too far into how to play as table tennis as you know has so much variation in a game.

As I get older (I am 60's) I realize my speed, reaction is getting much slower. Giving me time I can execute the shot/return. But if the ball is too fast I can't react quick enough, or even if enough the touch is not there. So predicting a short, heavy serve and have a good forehand flip (I am left handed) I hope I can add another surprise factor in my game. That is all.

tropical
01-31-2017, 04:15 PM
so is assuming you're a high level player and discrediting players that have proved themselves countless times.

is assuming? You are talking as a 3rd person here? Where did I discredit other players in my posts?

UpSideDownCarl
01-31-2017, 04:32 PM
BTW: about 4 years ago, well, time flies, maybe even 5 years ago, I started messing with my grip. I tried several different things.

I remember Michael Landers making fun of me and talking to me about how the grip should be free enough so that it switches for different shots without you trying, thinking about it, or realizing it happens.

At some point, when I did settle on "a grip" that works for me and had been doing it for a couple of years, I was asked if I switch my grip. My first thought and answer was, "no, not really." Then I realized that, when I change the angle of my wrist for BH and FH, my grip actually does shift without me even realizing it.

When NextLevel and I met the first time, he noticed my grip was a little rigid and tight. And that this kept me from being able to contact different parts of the ball for different shots and facing different spins. And that this made my FH weak at receiving certain serves.

When I worked on contacting the inside of the ball for down the line shots with a slight fade spin, my grip relaxed and, without realizing it, I started adjusting my grip for different shots to a larger extent.

None of this happened because I thought about switching my grip. But if did happen because of working on specific shots.

Anyway, most of these kinds of things happen naturally once they have been trained into the body.

And the extra pressure on contact, I actually always felt it as digging into the ball while the rubber is grabbing the ball while you loop. And Damien's sound "ptah" like the Egyptian god, Ptah, gets at the feeling too.

So, my guess is, there are people doing this without even realizing it. And that is actually kind of fine.


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tropical
01-31-2017, 04:38 PM
I completely agree with you, Carl.

Archosaurus
01-31-2017, 04:47 PM
I'm really not high level enough to even benefit from most if not any of this grip changing stuff, but I've found that I pick up a pretty good grip for different shots if I just focus on the quality. I find it hard if not impossible to properly play with just one exact same grip without small changes. They happen by themselves, and don't need any attention.

Shuki
01-31-2017, 08:44 PM
is assuming? You are talking as a 3rd person here? Where did I discredit other players in my posts?
yup, sorry to bother you. (insert better apology here)

Baal
01-31-2017, 09:36 PM
I think I only talked about my wrong grip and hoped that the new grip can help in developing a forehand flip better. I didn't venture too far into how to play as table tennis as you know has so much variation in a game.

As I get older (I am 60's) I realize my speed, reaction is getting much slower. Giving me time I can execute the shot/return. But if the ball is too fast I can't react quick enough, or even if enough the touch is not there. So predicting a short, heavy serve and have a good forehand flip (I am left handed) I hope I can add another surprise factor in my game. That is all.

I guess all I am saying is that you can't really evaluate if your grip is "wrong" without taking some time to see how it affects your whole game. BUT, that evaluation time can be kind of frustrating if by thinking about it too much you end up having other issues.

tropical
01-31-2017, 11:29 PM
I guess all I am saying is that you can't really evaluate if your grip is "wrong" without taking some time to see how it affects your whole game. BUT, that evaluation time can be kind of frustrating if by thinking about it too much you end up having other issues.

I am evaluating this new grip because from servicing point of view I have to change grip in order to have a good pendulum or reversed pendulum serve. So I think receiving is the same, by changing grip it may add another flavor in my game. And I can quickly change back to my original grip without affecting my game plan. This is actually the least issue to come up with.

Then after doing such and find (possibly) the new grip is effective I can apply it in my game. If the rally is long and slow enough I can change grip to give a stronger and spinier loop. Hey, for long pip players we flip all the time. Of course it affects the game but that is why the game is fun.

Der_Echte
02-01-2017, 04:02 AM
I have a modified thumb and finger grip for serve, and a trigger finger grip. Both work wekk and allow wrist well. I have a thumb/finger grip on a slow Bh loop and a tight high thumb on a powerful BH loop, my FH grip drifts different on a spinny opener vs underspin and a different grip for incoming topspin. I DO loosen at impact and side to corkscrew spin a ball away, or I tighten real hard right at impact for max power.

I drifted into this way and wasn't influenced by a vid. I woulda sworn I am consistent on grip in play, but video doesn't lie. Der_Echte has sum extreme ways.

Der_Echte
02-01-2017, 04:04 AM
Tropical, if you show up at swan around 4 or 5 pm this Saturday, start suddenly talking about oranges so I know who U is. :D

tropical
02-01-2017, 05:04 AM
I'll try. Now-a-day I rarely play game as my back hurts due to a slipped disc. But if I go there I will play a match with you.

Der_Echte
02-01-2017, 05:14 AM
big OUCH. You don't have to play vs me, just setup a winning Chicken and Beer bet against someone you want to go down.

tropical
02-01-2017, 05:20 AM
big OUCH. You don't have to play vs me, just setup a winning Chicken and Beer bet against someone you want to go down.

Ha ha I'll bet against ttmonster.

Der_Echte
02-01-2017, 05:58 AM
Bet against TT Monster vs the young dude with the flashy strokes and you might lose Ur money, monster got a solid continuous attacking and defensive counter attacking game.

You wont get monster to take a bet vs me, but he is game to the end.

Carl said earlier in the thread that I was taking it easy, but I wasn't, I had to earn my points.

vik
02-04-2017, 09:19 PM
Guy closed his youtube channel.What do you think about it?

NextLevel
02-04-2017, 09:26 PM
Guy closed his youtube channel.What do you think about it?

Without any knowledge of why, I won't speculate too strongly but the issues we raised in light of many things he wrote and said were genuine ones and he had many videos that featured him criticizing people I am 100% sure were never asked for permission before he used their video. And of course maybe he preferred to keep his privacy and that is reasonable too.

Baal
02-04-2017, 10:57 PM
He is busy making videos for China called "The Secrets of France". Never before heard secrets ONLY known by French wise men. The first one will be that you can cook with wine.

SchemeSC
02-05-2017, 12:29 AM
Maybe it was the random amateur that he used to compare to Ma Long that reported him? Or the hot girl that he uses as his profile picture?

The world will never know.

NextLevel
02-05-2017, 12:41 AM
Maybe it was the random amateur that he used to compare to Ma Long that reported him? Or the hot girl that he uses as his profile picture?

The world will never know.

My guess is the former. That people didn't immediately smell an EM-rat after seeing that makes my head shake. All in the name of Chinese secrets.

SchemeSC
02-05-2017, 01:31 AM
Acccording to his Facebook page, EmRat's site was indeed terminated by Youtube. He is claiming that this is a glitch, however, and that the same thing has happened to many other innocent YT users. He's going to continue to share his videos on his Facebook account.

UpSideDownCarl
02-05-2017, 04:10 AM
This clause from the YouTube guidelines probably has the reasons his channel was banned:

"Copyright
Respect copyright. Only upload videos that you made or that you're authorized to use. This means don't upload videos you didn't make, or use content in your videos that someone else owns the copyright to, such as music tracks, snippets of copyrighted programs, or videos made by other users, without necessary authorizations. Visit our Copyright Center for more information."

My money says that there is more than one of these copyright issues in every video. In each video there is music. I am betting it wasn't made by him. Then there are also photos and video footage that he certainly did not create himself. If one clip was copyrighted and the copyright holder saw the video, that report could end his channel.

And since almost everything he uploaded came from somewhere else and someone else's video first, it is fairly likely this was the cause.


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EmRatThich
02-05-2017, 10:49 AM
My youtube channel is suspended by Youtube due to "Community Guidelines Violation". Until now, I don't know the true reason about that. This problem occurs to many other channels, even the biggest one (The watchmojo, "the richest" channel, you can find google to understand this problem).

https://www.reddit.com/r/youtube/comments/5pqpot/seems_channels_such_as_watchmojo_the_richest/

https://productforums.google.com/forum/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer#!topic/youtube/fq4BvJKgYe4;context-place=forum/youtube

It's definitely not the "Copyright strike" as mentioned by Carl. If you don't understand the real situation, please don't judge another people. Many famous Youtube channel in table tennis like: ttlondon2012, and janus uploaded copyright videos from CTTA, and ITTF. That's copyrighted materials. I've used material from the personal channel, and I do ask the permission before doing it. And I don't have any copyright strike in my channel, so it's not the copyright related problem.

I've contacted Youtube for further investigation. But it seems that we must wait for 2-4 weeks, as many many innocent channels have the same problem. It's not the first time this problem occurs, the Community Guidelines of Youtube is unclear, and it depends on the point of view from different Reviewers.

12043

12042

UpSideDownCarl
02-05-2017, 11:40 AM
My youtube channel is suspended by Youtube due to "Community Guidelines Violation". Until now, I don't know the true reason about that. This problem occurs to many other channels, even the biggest one (The watchmojo, "the richest" channel, you can find google to understand this problem).

https://www.reddit.com/r/youtube/comments/5pqpot/seems_channels_such_as_watchmojo_the_richest/

https://productforums.google.com/forum/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer#!topic/youtube/fq4BvJKgYe4;context-place=forum/youtube

It's definitely not the "Copyright strike" as mentioned by Carl. If you don't understand the real situation, please don't judge another people. Many famous Youtube channel in table tennis like: ttlondon2012, and janus uploaded copyright videos from CTTA, and ITTF. That's copyrighted materials. I've used material from the personal channel, and I do ask the permission before doing it. And I don't have any copyright strike in my channel, so it's not the copyright related problem.

I've contacted Youtube for further investigation. But it seems that we must wait for 2-4 weeks, as many many innocent channels have the same problem. It's not the first time this problem occurs, the Community Guidelines of Youtube is unclear, and it depends on the point of view from different Reviewers.

12043

12042

And you have been given the rights to use the music you use in your videos?


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Archosaurus
02-05-2017, 11:45 AM
I will bring up that there's a lot of copyright-free music that YouTubers use. Often the same stuff. I don't know if the music EmRat uses is copyright free.

However a lot of channels that generate revenue use music that's not theirs but is copyright free. Many legitimate channels use copyrighted music as well: but they don't generate revenue.

UpSideDownCarl
02-05-2017, 11:50 AM
Well, I guess I am okay not knowing why the channel was taken down. We will see what happens with that appeal.


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SchemeSC
02-05-2017, 12:51 PM
I know that Emrat said the apeal process takes 2-4 weeks, but doesn't the last image he uploaded say that YouTube revealed his appeal and his account is now in good standing? It seems that he already "won", so why can't I see any of his material?

NextLevel
02-05-2017, 12:52 PM
I know that Emrat said the process takes 2-4 weeks, but doesn't the last image he uploaded say that YouTube revealed his appeal and his account is now in good standing? It seems that he already "won", so why can't I see any of his material?

He means this is not the first time something like this has happened to him.

SchemeSC
02-05-2017, 01:20 PM
He means this is not the first time something like this has happened to him.

You are correct and the date in the first image (Jan. 10, 2017) confirms that. I see.

If I understood him correctly, he is claiming that he always asks for permission to use other people's content in his own videos. So if all of this is true, he should have nothing to worry about. We'll see I guess.

Archosaurus
02-05-2017, 01:28 PM
I do somehow doubt that he has access to every single piece of video that he uses to gain revenue.

Well, I guess with Chinese secrets, comes also Chinese connections.

TTFrenzy
02-05-2017, 03:14 PM
He is busy making videos for China called "The Secrets of France". Never before heard secrets ONLY known by French wise men. The first one will be that you can cook with wine.


WE
dont need such racists outrage posts in table tennis. Its a noble sport so I think you probably have to reconsider before some weird accident happens to you chinese or french mafia

p.s. just joking, please dont start throwing tomatoes at me or get any social media justice warriors after my tail

Baal
02-05-2017, 03:41 PM
WE
dont need such racists outrage posts in table tennis. Its a noble sport so I think you probably have to reconsider before some weird accident happens to you chinese or french mafia

I have drastically edited this post -- to reveal new secrets. Actually I lived in France for almost a year, speak the language, and I am married to a Chinese woman. I am a member of both mafias. Bwahahahahahah!

UpSideDownCarl
02-05-2017, 03:45 PM
WE
dont need such racists outrage posts in table tennis. Its a noble sport so I think you probably have to reconsider before some weird accident happens to you chinese or french mafia

Hey, Frenzy, I am not sure if you are serious or joking. If this is a joke, it isn't clear. But it is clear, at least to me, that Baal is joking.

So, perhaps we need to chill on this. A lighthearted joke should not cause a flame war.


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TTFrenzy
02-05-2017, 03:54 PM
lol guys relax, obviousy a trolling joke. u fell for the mafia stuff?really? ;p

p.s. carl if u want i will delete it/edit . i didnt expect anyone t fall for that.

Baal
02-05-2017, 04:20 PM
Sorry TT Frenzy! I guess I was the one who missed the joke!

EmRatThich
02-05-2017, 04:46 PM
All the music I've used is from free to use. The problem could be due to the "Spam" in Community Guidelines of Youtube. It's ridiculous, as many BIG BOSS in Youtube has also suspended, but I don't know why these channels are restored after few hours? (Money? or Youtube Network?) ?

It seems to me that, I've used the Bit.ly shorten URL in my description, and Youtube Robots think that they are the SPAM links :( It's not SPAM, it's the link to the playlist to help viewers navigate easier to different playlist :(

12045

UpSideDownCarl
02-05-2017, 05:38 PM
lol guys relax, obviousy a trolling joke. u fell for the mafia stuff?really? ;p

p.s. carl if u want i will delete it/edit . i didnt expect anyone t fall for that.

Nah, if it is a joke, that is different. Then I understand that how it came off as not a joke has something more to do with English being your second language. No harm. Jokes are jokes.

I was hoping it was a joke.


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tropical
02-05-2017, 06:27 PM
Somebody Facebook account or YouTube account can get shutdown if there are complaints against them. It will take a few days/weeks for these FB or YT admins to consider and reopen. The complaints can be anything, true or bogus, just like many posters here.

NextLevel
02-05-2017, 06:56 PM
Somebody Facebook account or YouTube account can get shutdown if there are complaints against them. It will take a few days/weeks for these FB or YT admins to consider and reopen. The complaints can be anything, true or bogus, just like many posters here.

Yes. That's why it's a good thing that Emrat is sharing details. It reduces the speculation.

EmRatThich
02-06-2017, 08:32 AM
Wow ! We have won!
12051
In the next few days, Youtube continues to run the "bot". If another table tennis channels (ttlondon2012, janus, ttcountenance) can be suspended due to the Bot, I've a solution :)

My channel is suspended due to the "Bot". My channel is reinstated.
https://www.youtube.com/user/EmRatThichVo

WOW ! After 2 days, I felt that I'm lost, but keep fighting. I've contacted many peoples and here it comes! My channel is back!Here are the best tips:
1) Make only 1-3 appeals only. Don't spam, if you spam, your email will be blocked.
2) First, I don't know what is the real reason, why they suspend my channel. I focus about the SPAM and MISLEADING TAGS. I've made 2 appeals and they rejected my appeals.
3) Now, I understand the real circumstance. Due to the pressure of the TRUMP Government, Youtube is forced to remove uncopyrighted and sensible materials. ButYoutubelacks of human force, so they upgrade the "Copyright Detection Bot". This is the small program like ID Content, and they scan from several channels since December 2016. This bot will scan from A->Z based on the channel ID (may be).
4) Now, you can make an appeal but must clear, and polite, explain the source and focus on "Copyrighted Materials" - False detection. WOW ! I've made an appeal yesterday focused on Copyright materials and this morning, I won! My previous 2 appeals are rejected because I explained about SPAM and DECEPTIVE TITLEs.

tropical
02-06-2017, 04:17 PM
Ok .. ERT good job. Now show us some more of the new tricks or secrets.

Baal
02-06-2017, 05:01 PM
Wow ! We have won!
12051
In the next few days, Youtube continues to run the "bot". If another table tennis channels (ttlondon2012, janus, ttcountenance) can be suspended due to the Bot, I've a solution :)

My channel is suspended due to the "Bot". My channel is reinstated.
https://www.youtube.com/user/EmRatThichVo

WOW ! After 2 days, I felt that I'm lost, but keep fighting. I've contacted many peoples and here it comes! My channel is back!Here are the best tips:
1) Make only 1-3 appeals only. Don't spam, if you spam, your email will be blocked.
2) First, I don't know what is the real reason, why they suspend my channel. I focus about the SPAM and MISLEADING TAGS. I've made 2 appeals and they rejected my appeals.
3) Now, I understand the real circumstance. Due to the pressure of the TRUMP Government, Youtube is forced to remove uncopyrighted and sensible materials. ButYoutubelacks of human force, so they upgrade the "Copyright Detection Bot". This is the small program like ID Content, and they scan from several channels since December 2016. This bot will scan from A->Z based on the channel ID (may be).
4) Now, you can make an appeal but must clear, and polite, explain the source and focus on "Copyrighted Materials" - False detection. WOW ! I've made an appeal yesterday focused on Copyright materials and this morning, I won! My previous 2 appeals are rejected because I explained about SPAM and DECEPTIVE TITLEs.




I can forgive a lot for someone who provides this information. We don't want our TT channels shut down arbitrarily.

UpSideDownCarl
02-06-2017, 05:31 PM
Glad you were able to sort it out and glad it was a mistake. Glad my speculation about how it could be a copyright issue was incorrect and that you won your appeal. Good luck.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Der_Echte
02-07-2017, 02:31 AM
Pressure from TRUMP ??? Huh ??? I remember Dan, the OWNER of TTD forced to shut down hiz youtbe page when OBAMA the Lefty was US Prez. Was Merryl Streep involved??? Are Obama, Clinton, Monika , Trump, and Tom Cruize all smoking cigars somewhere and having a laugh??? [\end sarcasm]

Tenergy05
02-07-2017, 04:04 AM
Some of the haters here either don't give much practical advice or give worse advice. Seems to me they are jealous of his success.

SchemeSC
02-07-2017, 04:55 AM
Some of the haters here either don't give much practical advice or give worse advice. Seems to me they are jealous of his success.

Yes, he is a highly successful content aggregator. That cannot be denied. EmRat has never created a single piece of his own original material in his entire life, yet his videos still get lots of views. He knows how to take other people's videos and other people's research (all of which they put a lot of time and effort into creating) and condenses them and markets them appropriately.. Some people are really good at that - it's true.

But as for me, I am jealous of people that know how to create quality content. Not just copy and paste.

Tenergy05
02-07-2017, 05:05 AM
The videos I've watched from him are mostly chinese nation team training/play which he makes a point from, like the forehand loop one.

The editing style he uses is clearly more popular with a lot of viewers than the complainers here, which looks like cause of this sour grapes.

EmRatThich
02-08-2017, 03:54 PM
Yes, he is a highly successful content aggregator. That cannot be denied. EmRat has never created a single piece of his own original material in his entire life, yet his videos still get lots of views. He knows how to take other people's videos and other people's research (all of which they put a lot of time and effort into creating) and condenses them and markets them appropriately.. Some people are really good at that - it's true.

But as for me, I am jealous of people that know how to create quality content. Not just copy and paste.

Dear SchemeSC,

With all of my respect to many other Youtube channels about table tennis, I would like to cite to you some things.

Many best Table tennis Youtube channels (like ttlondon2012, janus, ttcounternance), do they make a his own material? They also "just copy and paste" (as you have said above) the table tennis videos from ITTF, CTTA and Laola1TV. So you also disrespect these creators? Without them, where do you watch your favorite table tennis match?

Second, my coaching videos are my "own original material" about table tennis. I have the right to use another material to transfer my message (these materials are used with permission). This is called "fair use" in Youtube Copyright Guidelines. I don't just copy and reupload another video. I don't violate the Copyright of another creator.
A good documentary film about the war, do they need to make a war to transfer the message?

Third, you said that that I just "copy and paste" other works which they "put a lot of time and effort into creating". Do you know that for only 9 minutes of table tennis coaching videos, I need 3 days of searching and organizing the ideas, the tips, and then about 5h to 6h to edit and narrate the video? All of these efforts are for helping new table tennis players improve their game. Try to do your own coaching table tennis video before judging other's work !!

Fourth, "of people that know how to create quality content. Not just copy and paste.". The quality of my coaching videos is evaluated by the viewers, not by your disrespect and hateful opinion! I'm sure that many many table tennis players over there do like my coaching videos.

Fifth, at least if you are a polite person in your real life, please call another person by his correct name. Please call me as "EmRatThich" but not "EmRat".




12089

Archosaurus
02-08-2017, 04:01 PM
EmRat, you are missing the point somewhat, I think.

ttlondon2012, janus and ttcounternance have no need to post video of themselves playing, because they do not offer any tips or give direction. To my knowledge they just upload matches. The video type is entirely different. It's a poor argument to say that because they don't show video of themselves, you don't need to. Your channel and their channels have nothing to do with each other in terms of content.

EmRatThich
02-08-2017, 04:14 PM
I talked about his comment "making his own material" and "copy and paste"!
Anyway, haters are haters. If you don't believe my coaching credibility, just stop watching my coaching videos. (end).

Baal
02-08-2017, 04:27 PM
EmRatThich, here are my sincere suggestions for improvement.

1. Make the videos shorter. Get to the point and remove non essential stuff that just wastes viewer's time and makes them impatient.

2. Make sure the things you call "Chinese secrets" are really that, and not in fact common suggestions made by coaches all over the world. If you are going to illustrate some technique as being uniquely Chinese, make sure that when you show a technique of someone like Ma Long, that you don't compare that to a low level player. Use someone like Boll or Ovtcharov or even Lebesson. Because if a top European player is using the same technique, it is not uniquely Chinese. It is a secret of top players.

3. I sometimes wonder if some of the suggestions can be really implemented by people at lower levels, but pretty successful coaches might disagree on that. If you have an opinion on that, you should state it like "as you improve, you might want to add this..."

Of course, they are your videos so do what you want, but I think if you followed these suggestions you would get an even better reception.

SchemeSC
02-08-2017, 04:28 PM
I talked about his comment "making his own material" and "copy and paste"!
Stop using the word "copy and paste" to judge people!
EmRatThich,

As much as you think I'm a hateful and disrespectful person, the truth is that I was glad to see your YouTube channel get reinstated. If you didn't commit any violations, then you didn't deserve to have your channel shut down. There is a differece between being a content aggregator (which is what you are) and someone that violates Copyright laws.

In fact, if you would produce just ONE SINGLE PIECE or original coaching video, I would probably subscribe to your channel. You wouldn't even need to to show your face on camera. You could just show some video footage of one of your students, and then do a voiceover explaining the student's issues and how you were able to resolve them. I wouldn't even need to agree with the advice necessarily.

Just one piece of original video footage and I would be on board.

EmRatThich
02-08-2017, 04:31 PM
Pressure from TRUMP ??? Huh ??? I remember Dan, the OWNER of TTD forced to shut down hiz youtbe page when OBAMA the Lefty was US Prez. Was Merryl Streep involved??? Are Obama, Clinton, Monika , Trump, and Tom Cruize all smoking cigars somewhere and having a laugh??? [\end sarcasm]

Maybe, you don't know the real situation now as you are not a Youtube creator.
If you want to know more, read these articles:

YouTube Bans Conservative ChannelJANUARY 13, 2017
http://www.dailywire.com/news/12418/youtube-bans-conservative-channel-hank-berrien

YouTube removes hundreds of the best climate science videos from the Internet


http://climatestate.com/2017/02/03/youtube-removes-hundreds-of-the-best-climate-science-videos-from-the-internet/

February 3, 2017 (http://climatestate.com/2017/02/03/)2017 (http://climatestate.com/category/year/2017/), ClimateState (http://climatestate.com/category/climatestate/)

EmRatThich
02-08-2017, 04:38 PM
EmRatThich, here are my sincere suggestions for improvement.

1. Make the videos shorter. Get to the point and remove non essential stuff that just wastes viewer's time and makes them impatient.

2. Make sure the things you call "Chinese secrets" are really that, and not in fact common suggestions made by coaches all over the world. If you are going to illustrate some technique as being uniquely Chinese, make sure that when you show a technique of someone like Ma Long, that you don't compare that to a low level player. Use someone like Boll or Ovtcharov or even Lebesson. Because if a top European player is using the same technique, it is not uniquely Chinese. It is a secret of top players.

3. I sometimes wonder if some of the suggestions can be really implemented by people at lower levels, but pretty successful coaches might disagree on that. If you have an opinion on that, you should state it like "as you improve, you might want to add this..."

Of course, they are your videos so do what you want, but I think if you followed these suggestions you would get an even better reception.

Thank you Baal.

Yes you are right Baal. I've just begun to make youtube videos since 6 months. When I've looked at my first videos, it's really bad. My voice is bad, too long, and not informative, too many "chinese secrets", bad idea design. Now I've learned that making a good video require MUCH times. At the beginning, I just do for fun, without any preparation for the video.
I will improve my videos based on your advice. Thanks again.

NextLevel
02-08-2017, 04:39 PM
EmRatThich, here are my sincere suggestions for improvement.

1. Make the videos shorter. Get to the point and remove non essential stuff that just wastes viewer's time and makes them impatient.

2. Make sure the things you call "Chinese secrets" are really that, and not in fact common suggestions made by coaches all over the world. If you are going to illustrate some technique as being uniquely Chinese, make sure that when you show a technique of someone like Ma Long, that you don't compare that to a low level player. Use someone like Boll or Ovtcharov or even Lebesson. Because if a top European player is using the same technique, it is not uniquely Chinese. It is a secret of top players.

3. I sometimes wonder if some of the suggestions can be really implemented by people at lower levels, but pretty successful coaches might disagree on that. If you have an opinion on that, you should state it like "as you improve, you might want to add this..."

Of course, they are your videos so do what you want, but I think if you followed these suggestions you would get an even better reception.

I don't think any of these things would necessarily make the channel get a better reception.

EmRatThich
02-08-2017, 04:42 PM
EmRatThich,

As much as you think I'm a hateful and disrespectful person, the truth is that I was glad to see your YouTube channel get reinstated. If you didn't commit any violations, then you didn't deserve to have your channel shut down. There is a differece between being a content aggregator (which is what you are) and someone that violates Copyright laws.

In fact, if you would produce just ONE SINGLE PIECE or original coaching video, I would probably subscribe to your channel. You wouldn't even need to to show your face on camera. You could just show some video footage of one of your students, and then do a voiceover explaining the student's issues and how you were able to resolve them. I wouldn't even need to agree with the advice necessarily.

Just one piece of original video footage and I would be on board.

LOL!
It seems that you don't believe that I'm a table tennis coach.
Do you dare to bet with me, if I can show my coaching footage, how much money you can bet? :)

Archosaurus
02-08-2017, 04:45 PM
LOL!
It seems that you don't believe that I'm a table tennis coach.
Do you dare to bet with me, if I can show my coaching footage, how much money you can bet? :)
No one has to pay you anything for you to show footage of yourself. This is just making you seem more and more like a fake.

NextLevel
02-08-2017, 04:47 PM
I talked about his comment "making his own material" and "copy and paste"!
Anyway, haters are haters. If you don't believe my coaching credibility, just stop watching my coaching videos. (end).
Sure. I can always recommend selectively what you post to my students but I always try to warn people of the risks of taking advice from people who refuse to substantiate their level of play or their experience. I only started playing seriously 5.5 years ago and I know the risks of trying to learn from people over the internet who never provided their expertise or discussed the nuances and typical mistakes people make when taking their advice. Plenty of the stuff you discuss is more advanced than the audience you claim that needs to hear it.

NextLevel
02-08-2017, 04:48 PM
LOL!
It seems that you don't believe that I'm a table tennis coach.
Do you dare to bet with me, if I can show my coaching footage, how much money you can bet? :)
He is making a reasonable request to you to validate your experience and his skepticism is in a part a result of your not fulfilling it.

EmRatThich
02-08-2017, 04:49 PM
No one has to pay you anything for you to show footage of yourself. This is just making you seem more and more like a fake.

Privacy has a price. So consider that I'm a fake!

EmRatThich
02-08-2017, 04:54 PM
He is making a reasonable request to you to validate your experience and his skepticism is in a part a result of your not fulfilling it.

I've explained clearly in my video. It's not a good time to show up in my case.
My privacy is my privacy. I don't need anyone to validate my experiences in table tennis. If you are respectful, stop asking about that or just stop watching my video!

If you don't understand "privacy", now filming yourself, your wife, your kids, your professional, your jobs and post to the Internet!
I don't need to show my privacy, due to the request of some random disrespectful people.

NextLevel
02-08-2017, 05:06 PM
I've explained clearly in my video. It's not a good time to show up in my case.
My privacy is my privacy. I don't need anyone to validate my experiences in table tennis. If you are respectful, stop asking about that or just stop watching my video!

If you don't understand "privacy", now filming yourself, your wife, your kids, your professional, your jobs and post to the Internet!
I don't need to show my privacy, due to the request of some random disrespectful people.


You don't have you show yourself or your family and I have mentioned this elsewhere. I have never met Baal. I don't know what he looks like. I do know that he is a university professor and he currently plays at a level around 2050-2100, lives in Texas, and has hung around or worked with former national team members (Niraj Oak, Viktor Subonj, Timothy Wang), whose names I guess/know either from his stories or by inference. He is almost definitely over 50, possibly over 60, but I cannot say for sure.

Even if someone had never seen my videos - I could tell them that I am USATT 2000-2100 with auto immune arthritis in my late 30s to early 40s and have been playing for 6 years. I have worked with Brett Clarke from TTEdge extensively and the same coach as Alex Polyakov of Breaking 2000 fame - this is where most of my conventional TT knowledge and expertise is sourced in. Most of my coaching and advice is directed at learning adult TT amateurs as their issues are usually different from children. My highest rated students/mentored players are USATT 1700-1950.

You should be able to provide something similar about your playing achievements/coaching without exposing anyone to ridicule.

Raylazyfo
02-08-2017, 05:14 PM
No one has to pay you anything for you to show footage of yourself. This is just making you seem more and more like a fake.
Just like no one has to pay him anything to show footage of himself, you dont have the right to see it.
It would be different if you were paying for his videos but what EmRathich provides is a free service.

izra
02-08-2017, 05:29 PM
you have to understand he has to be careful. if he spills all of the secrets there will be nothing to stop europe from creating a new ma long.

NextLevel
02-08-2017, 05:31 PM
you have to understand he has to be careful. if he spills all of the secrets there will be nothing to stop europe from creating a new ma long.

One of the great things about secrets is that knowing them doesn't mean you can copy them. That's why it can be interesting to recommend things that pros do to amateurs who haven't built up the experience to use them.

izra
02-08-2017, 05:33 PM
you didn't think i was sirious there did you? :D

suds79
02-08-2017, 05:39 PM
This is the thread that just won't die.

SchemeSC
02-08-2017, 05:55 PM
This is the thread that just won't die.
The guy that created the thread is probably going to be the guy that most wants to see it continue. This thread was on its way out (finally!) until EmRatThich decided to be conventiently offended by the fact that I said that he is primarily a content aggregator and not a content creator. I would be more than happy to see this thread die.

NextLevel
02-08-2017, 05:59 PM
you didn't think i was sirious there did you? :D

And you thought because I answered you seriously that I did?

I was trying to make a point as well. Even if these things are secrets, they still need people to be at a level to do them, and this is where SchemeSC and myself have experience knowing that the level it takes to understand and do these things is not trivial.

NextLevel
02-08-2017, 06:00 PM
The guy that created the thread is probably going to be the guy that most wants to see it continue. This thread was on its way out (finally!) until EmRatThich decided to be conventiently offended by the fact that I said that he is primarily a content aggregator and not a content creator. I would be more than happy to see this thread die.

I would prefer it die after he explains why he can't provide a bio.

SchemeSC
02-08-2017, 06:02 PM
I would prefer it die after he explains why he can't provide a bio.
Me too. But I think at this point we can assume that it's never going to happen, since it has been requested of him multiple times and he still hasn't provided it.