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gmiller2233
02-20-2017, 04:47 PM
I've been thinking that it would be interesting to hear and useful to start a post about service where people could talk about different strategies, developments, or things that they have found effective when developing their service strategies or game. There is lots of good existing post regarding service but I have not seen one that talks about strategies more broadly. Topic could including all things serve related ranging from small technique improvements to serves strategies that people have found useful against when facing strengths types of players. For instance I would love to hear about strategies players have developed when playing someone with a very strong flip opener. Both what makes them uncomfortable personally and what successes they have found by at least slow them down.



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sanavasaraja
02-20-2017, 07:09 PM
Things I like to always keep in mind:
Deceptiveness over spin, placement over both.

In a world in which everybody seems to be drugged by the maximum amount of spin, a deceptive empty no-spin ball is king. Play the ball very flat to an uncomfortable spot and youve got yourself a very save serve. Less is more. Too often have I myself gotten completely wrecked by people without any ability to even produce a fancy serve.

On that note, I love opponents that always want to attack. I vary the sides where I serve to and the length and I vary the amount and type of spin, of which there doesnt have to be too much, deceptively. Trying to keep it completely random, scanning for opponents weaknesses over the course of the game. Mind games...! Maybe my opponents arent good enough, but I do get more points from them trying to attack me first than me actually attacking them.

Ilia Minkin
02-20-2017, 07:16 PM
For instance I would love to hear about strategies players have developed when playing someone with a very strong flip opener.

A straightforward one is to serve to the side where they don't have a strong flip, especially with sidespin curving away. For example, if they have a good looking banana flip, it is good to serve to their wide forehand with side-back spin. Another thing is to make sure the ball just goes over the net very low. Which is not easy to do even in training, let alone in a match under pressure.

For the brave ones an option is to serve long. Serving fast to the elbow works very well against folks with poor footwork. Another option is fast sidespin (possible with top- or back-) very wide, both sides. Not everybody can cover those well.

Shuki
02-20-2017, 10:14 PM
Thank me now


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwdAYQ7-_tg

genrel001
02-21-2017, 06:25 AM
My second favorite service to use is a half chop fast long serve. It's deceptive and easy to perform. When my opponents try to loop, the ball falls over the table. When they block, the ball drops to the net and when they push it goes long which gives me the opportunity to open an attack. My favorite is a long side spin corner serve on the backhand side of the opponent.

And sana is right. Placement above all.

doraemon
02-21-2017, 06:46 AM
i don't know why, but for some reason why seiya kishikawa and gao ning's serve aesthetics appeals to me...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztcoIiLxeJo

backspin or sidespin? I am trying to imitate this serve(s), and I think it works pretty good.

I find that some serve motions come more naturally (to produce good spin) than others, eg. jun mizutani and samsonov forehand serve for me makes more spin than ma long or waldner style forehand serve strokes

EDIT: serve stuff is around 2:18 in the vid

Der_Echte
02-21-2017, 09:05 AM
I should let Carl, NL, or tt monster explain my serve philosophy and execution, I have written about it dozens of times as a server, but few have detailed it much as a receiver.

I am interested in watching the discussion.

TTHopeful
02-21-2017, 10:41 AM
Placement and no spin is effectiv at times. Sometimes putting no spin gets a long no spin return to attack

bobpuls
02-21-2017, 11:06 AM
This is very useful video ... but i`m not sure if it is presented from the best players ... because they are not Chinese (ass you can hear and read on their shirts ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUgpfGWsfec

suds79
02-21-2017, 05:12 PM
I have this theory that there are two main serve types big picture wise.

Deceptive as one, and non-deceptive and "so much spin what are you going to do about it" as the other.

I've seen good players who use both.

While I prefer deceptive, because you're holding your bat close to your body and trying to hide... I mean almost ;) hide your serve, you simply cannot get as much bat speed as if you're doing a full swing.

So while I use deceptive 90% of the time right now, sooner or later your club mats (lets be honest the people you really want to beat) who you train with all the time start to learn your stuff. They've seen it a million times. There's no more tricking them. So in those cases, I think it's important to try to identify what they're not so good against and do the load it up with spin as much as possible and see how they can handle it.

... Haven't fully tested this but just thinking off the top of my head.

songdavid98
02-21-2017, 11:07 PM
This is very useful video ... but i`m not sure if it is presented from the best players ... because they are not Chinese (ass you can hear and read on their shirts ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUgpfGWsfec

I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but they are Chinese.
Just because they don't have a Chinese accent in their voice... ;sigh;
You probably don't know what a Chinese name looks like either, because Han Xiao is Chinese.

One more thing, just because they are Chinese does not mean they are reliable sources of information.
***************

This is at the Lily Yip Table Tennis Center. Lily always gets very capable players to help coach the kids, so you can trust the information in the video.
The coaches there are pretty much always at least 2400 USATT

UpSideDownCarl
02-22-2017, 01:33 AM
I should let Carl, NL, or tt monster explain my serve philosophy and execution, I have written about it dozens of times as a server, but few have detailed it much as a receiver.

I am interested in watching the discussion.

Goon Squad Productions presents the Der_Echte and NextLevel serving tutorial, video series. Learn to serve heavy backspin and then pull the rug out from under your opponent when you change your hand pressure and serve up heavy no spin instead.

Use these and other tricks to catch the goon squad with their pants down on a seek and capture mission. And learn the ultimate secret for always winning your chicken and beer bets.

All this and so much more in the Goon Squad's "Secrets of Serving" video series.

Order your first video in the series right away and you will get "Serving Secrets of the Masters" featuring special appearances by Brett Clark, Dan the Man and Matt Hetherington as a bonus gift.


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bobpuls
02-22-2017, 02:59 AM
I'm not sure if you are joking or not, but they are Chinese.
Just because they don't have a Chinese accent in their voice... ;sigh;
You probably don't know what a Chinese name looks like either, because Han Xiao is Chinese.

One more thing, just because they are Chinese does not mean they are reliable sources of information.
***************

This is at the Lily Yip Table Tennis Center. Lily always gets very capable players to help coach the kids, so you can trust the information in the video.
The coaches there are pretty much always at least 2400 USATT
Yes it was a joke... Something about the theme "China Secret technique reveals".
And I now who they are... And i really appreciate their efforts. And I'm finding their lesson to be very helpful.

gmiller2233
02-22-2017, 01:26 PM
definitely not constructing the wheel or providing goonsquad level info here, but the Occasionally shift over to the center and serving a right to left (I will serve with a tomahawk and jab serve from here) that crosses the elbow has been effective and useful serve to mix in. Especially when playing backhand dominant players that likes to return with there backhand, or even when playing an old school looper that looks to push really sharp and hard in order to get a pushback that they can loop. Obvious the important thing here is the crossover and creating another possible decision and hopefully not a great angle while there are making the read. Lots of possibly ways to target the crossover I do different serves here but I have found a modest right to left ball with under center to mid long surprisingly effective. It's does not look that impressive really, you won't stop and say wow But when you add up the crossover, direction and placement surprising its been an effective shot that giving a diffrent look playing against some ones strengths or desired response, while setting up future serves.

NL has started a post resently on spinning the serve less. There some really helpful serve philosophy there. I stated it there and won't repeat it all but for some time I have focused less on maxing out spin and more on placement and deception, most of the time anyway. This has helped my game quite a bit in different ways ranging from consistency, to deception ( my starting point is more neutral and Im able think about where I'm touching and the following through more) and with more predictable returns for 3 and 5 ball development.

I also really like the jab serve short to the forehand (right hand to right handed player). After practicing for some time it's pretty easy to disguise the spin and the short top spin goes out quite a bit. Brett Clark disguises this serve so well when I first got the his Tt edge app I couldn't see the difference at all. Another benefit at a mid lel play anyway ( I'm not seeing mi lin's fh flip) but the forehand flip is a shot that's visually exposed and if im actively looking for it, the direction or placement can often can be read which has lead to nice counter opp's, easy third balls. This is been a useful development especially sense I can't really do a reverse pendulum effectively do to pore flexibility in the shoulder, and I don't really like my attempts to do a top out of tomahawk it's just to attackable. and for me unless I'm practicing the th a bunch it can be tricky to serve as short as i like too.

tropical
02-22-2017, 05:19 PM
To low rating player like me (1900 USTAA) serving contributes a lot to my game, but I think it also took time from me from practicing more footwork or other techniques.
I have seen a guy used to be 2700 (and now only 2500 as he approached 50's) never won a point by serving. He served enough to not net opponent have a good return, then develop a 3rd or 5th ball attack or get into long rally. I can't even return his simple 3rd ball backhand flip regardless how strong I return his serve.
I really think a good player must know how to do with the 3rd and 5th ball after serving. Some people have a very good serve but only learn their good serves are good only for much lower rating folks and are bad against high rating folks.

Der_Echte
02-23-2017, 08:21 AM
To low rating player like me (1900 USTAA) serving contributes a lot to my game, but I think it also took time from me from practicing more footwork or other techniques.
I have seen a guy used to be 2700 (and now only 2500 as he approached 50's) never won a point by serving. He served enough to not net opponent have a good return, then develop a 3rd or 5th ball attack or get into long rally. I can't even return his simple 3rd ball backhand flip regardless how strong I return his serve.
I really think a good player must know how to do with the 3rd and 5th ball after serving. Some people have a very good serve but only learn their good serves are good only for much lower rating folks and are bad against high rating folks.

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hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa

for 10 screens.

1900 USATT rating on WEST or EAST coast among older adults is usually a true 2000+ USATT level (1650-1700 TTR in good ole Deutschland) not really a low level, VERY FEW achieve that level. YES, it isn't much compared to the top elite level, but it is almost top 10 percent.

Yet you did it and it is something to be proud of and for others to see at a minimum to understand its consequence. (Especially if you started late)

This is a high enough level to play almost blindfolded vs the average club level median player and still win giving away 4 point handicap after drinking 4 beerz in 30 minutes prior to matchtime.

Now as much as I agree with you on you example vs the elite player you mention, I still must stress the importance of showing heavy and varying it with the right placement to prevent attacks or at least make them predictable at that level.

Personally, I give fits to many way above my level on serves. my approach is so different and so are my whip mechanics.

Obviously I have a lot going on (deficiencies) to justify my rating being only slightly above yours. I simply have a professional disagreement over philosophy and application.

Der_Echte
02-23-2017, 08:29 AM
In EVERY venue I attend, I spend EXTRA time trying to show other players a progressive approach to acquiring the touch and impact point to serve short heavy on demand. I go out of my way.

WHY ???

Bogeyhunter took TEN MINUTES with my sorry ass (1400s USATT rec player at the time) to shpw me the principles to serve short underspin heavy and how to change it.

Of corse it took my sorry azz a full year just to get over 80% consistent, but it was a start and enough to make me 1600 level right away.(without ANY match significant match practice or players around my level.

Wouldn't EVERYONE want to gain TWO FULL LEVELS in one year with just 3 minutes of work per day relaxed easy ????????

You can do it !!!!! ... and likely to do it WAY SOONER than it took me.

Ilia Minkin
02-23-2017, 12:33 PM
Brett Clark disguises this serve so well when I first got the his Tt edge app I couldn't see the difference at all.

Haha I still can't read it by watching the contact point! I can do this with most other serves in TTEdge, but not this one. I can read Brett's punch by watching the follow through, by watching the contact -- no way.

NextLevel
02-23-2017, 01:10 PM
Haha I still can't read it by watching the contact point! I can do this with most other serves in TTEdge, but not this one. I can read Brett's punch by watching the follow through, by watching the contact -- no way.


You aren't playing the app enough and you are focusing on the wrong things. Always focus on the contact. Eventually, even if you don't think you are seeing it, you will. It gets slower with exposure. It's like your brain builds out the systems required to see everything if you give it a chance to. Don't let your current impression of how good you are stop you from playing it at least 15 minutes everyday for not much more.

NextLevel
02-23-2017, 01:14 PM
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa
hahahahahahaa friggin hahahahahahhahhahahaa

for 10 screens.

1900 USATT rating on WEST or EAST coast among older adults is usually a true 2000+ USATT level (1650-1700 TTR in good ole Deutschland) not really a low level, VERY FEW achieve that level. YES, it isn't much compared to the top elite level, but it is almost top 10 percent.

Yet you did it and it is something to be proud of and for others to see at a minimum to understand its consequence. (Especially if you started late)

This is a high enough level to play almost blindfolded vs the average club level median player and still win giving away 4 point handicap after drinking 4 beerz in 30 minutes prior to matchtime.

Now as much as I agree with you on you example vs the elite player you mention, I still must stress the importance of showing heavy and varying it with the right placement to prevent attacks or at least make them predictable at that level.

Personally, I give fits to many way above my level on serves. my approach is so different and so are my whip mechanics.

Obviously I have a lot going on (deficiencies) to justify my rating being only slightly above yours. I simply have a professional disagreement over philosophy and application.

People have a wrong perspective of table tennis sometimes. USATT 1900 is well above average especially if you didn't start intense training as a kid. People don't think about how long it takes to get there and think that it is a cakewalk. People who are above 1900 in China usually got some decent formal training.

Ilia Minkin
02-23-2017, 01:49 PM
181340Don't let your current impression of how good you are stop you from playing it at least 15 minutes everyday for not much more.

Sorry for thread hijacking. The thing that stops me from playing it is that it becomes super boring very fast.

NextLevel
02-23-2017, 01:52 PM
Sorry for thread hijacking. The thing that stops me from playing it is that it becomes super boring very fast.

Don't worry - I will fix the thread hijacking.

Have you won the serves tournament?

UpSideDownCarl
02-23-2017, 02:33 PM
If you didn't already know, Der_Echte's serves a re pretty darn good. Not just his short, heavy backspin which he uses to set up his short dead ball serve which is a real money maker for him. But his pendulum topspin and corkscrew serves are pretty evil too.

However, tropical is making a really good point. A lot of times it is a better strategy to use your serves to set yourself up to control the point or to end the point outright on the third ball when you can.

One of the disadvantages of simply relying on free points from your serve is that, then you don't get used to backing up your serves with good strategy and you don't get as many chances to control points in rallies and develop your rallying skillz.

However, having the good serves, and then how you use them to set yourself up, are two different things. And Der_Echte has the art of showing short, heavy backspin and then making a living off short no-spin to get easy third balls. When the opponent adjusts, he shows heavy backspin again and the return goes to the bottom of the net. He is able to change the spin with grip pressure so it pretty hard to see the change if you are only watching his motion.

So, Der definitely uses his good serves to set himself up for the Rambo Loop third ball. That is just intelligent strategy.


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UpSideDownCarl
02-23-2017, 03:02 PM
Now, I have one of my old man stories. My friend Matthew Khan has a student, who he gets me to play games and matches with when I am around.

If you didn't know who Matthew Khan is, he is a player from Guyana who is USATT 2400-2500. And he is actually an amazing coach. He is a coach who really gets people to improve.

So this guy he gets me to play, he is in his 60s. When I played my first matches with him I would switch to my left hand to make it more interesting.

My guess is that this guy is now about USATT 1500, from a starting point of about 500. All that improvement came in the last 2 years. So, I would say Matthew Khan is practically a miracle worker. If this guy was the only player Matthew Khan helped this way, I would say, perhaps they just clicked as student and coach. But I've also seen him do the same to a woman in her late 50s who started with a lower ceiling because of athletic capabilities. He didn't make her great. But he got her to go from missing the ball 30% of the time, to being solidly decent and probably about 1100-1200. That is pretty hard with someone with eye hand coordination challenges at the outset.

Anyway, so, the last time I played MKhan's student, the older gent who I will call EL, I say to MKhan, "EL has some good serves, why isn't he using them?"

MK says: "Well, what happens when EL relies on just his good serves is, he starts expecting the ball won't come back. But then with a better player like you, the ball still comes back. So I am getting him to learn to set up points with simpler serves and pull out the better serves only once in a while."

So, EL has gotten a lot better. And I am using a few different strategies on him. And Matthew looks at me, smiling and says: "I see you are using your serves to set you up better."

And I say back: "Yep, if I don't use that at least some of the time, EL is getting too good for the simpler strategies these days."

MKhan could see my short spin/no-spin setups from a mile away. But they are very effective.


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NextLevel
02-23-2017, 03:06 PM
If you didn't already know, Der_Echte's serves a re pretty darn good. Not just his short, heavy backspin which he uses to set up his short dead ball serve which is a real money maker for him. But his pendulum topspin and corkscrew serves are pretty evil too.

However, tropical is making a really good point. A lot of times it is a better strategy to use your serves to set yourself up to control the point or to end the point outright on the third ball when you can.

One of the disadvantages of simply relying on free points from your serve is that, then you don't get used to backing up your serves with good strategy and you don't get as many chances to control points in rallies and develop your rallying skillz.

However, having the good serves, and then how you use them to set yourself up, are two different things. And Der_Echte has the art of showing short,
heavy backspin and then making a living off short no-spin to get easy third balls. When the opponent adjusts, he shows heavy backspin again and the return goes to the bottom of the net. He is able to change the spin with grip pressure so it pretty hard to see the change if you are only watching his motion.

So, Der definitely uses his good serves to set himself up for the Rambo Loop third ball. That is just intelligent strategy.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvWp7lZxBRI

tropical
02-23-2017, 03:39 PM
In the above video I can see Der_Echte had a very good 3rd ball attack. His opponent didn't have much variation in her returning game and relied too much on her long pips for Der_Echte to make mistake. Except the 1st point Der_Echte won straight with his serves, the rest of the game showed his decent 3rd ball attack and returning strategy (he mixed chopping/pushing and backhand flip) . it could be more interesting if the lady knew how to twiddle the racket and attack Der_Echte's top spin serves.

OldschoolPenholder
02-23-2017, 03:47 PM
0:54 !!!
3:07 !!!

NextLevel
02-23-2017, 04:10 PM
In the above video I can see Der_Echte had a very good 3rd ball attack. His opponent didn't have much variation in her returning game and relied too much on her long pips for Der_Echte to make mistake. Except the 1st point Der_Echte won straight with his serves, the rest of the game showed his decent 3rd ball attack and returning strategy (he mixed chopping/pushing and backhand flip) . it could be more interesting if the lady knew how to twiddle the racket and attack Der_Echte's top spin serves.

Well, I decided to start with that. Here is a match vs a much better player than DerEchte. See again what happens on serve return. I could show my videos of me repeatedly missing DerEchte's serves as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFwkw_cXuew

Of course you need an attack behind your serves, but misses come in different flavors and qualities. There are people who attack hard to attack returns. But you need serves that generate passive returns. It usually takes a good player to attack DE's serves.

UpSideDownCarl
02-23-2017, 04:38 PM
BTW: NextLevel and Der both helped me understand how changing amounts of spin on the serve is very useful for setting up easier third balls.


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NextLevel
02-23-2017, 04:45 PM
I've been thinking that it would be interesting to hear and useful to start a post about service where people could talk about different strategies, developments, or things that they have found effective when developing their service strategies or game. There is lots of good existing post regarding service but I have not seen one that talks about strategies more broadly. Topic could including all things serve related ranging from small technique improvements to serves strategies that people have found useful against when facing strengths types of players. For instance I would love to hear about strategies players have developed when playing someone with a very strong flip opener. Both what makes them uncomfortable personally and what successes they have found by at least slow them down.



Sent from my Phone using Tapatalk

I started a thread like this on mytt but it didn't get very far. This was before I met Brett, after which I have learned much more. Will be back to share some stuff later. May not be today tho.

tropical
02-23-2017, 04:48 PM
I think we all say the same thing. The better player had a much better serve and attack game than Der_Echte. He didn't miss easy points and more consistent. His serves gave Der_Echte a hard time and his 3rd ball attack was deadly. Der_Echte won couple straight points from serving but his opponent return was also very good thus forced Der_Echte to make more mistake. The point I tried to make is one should practice with a partner who can return serves in different scenarios such as short, long, heavy, deep to body and you must be ready for such by either attacking or return short to initiate the next attack.
I still think my 1900 rating is not true. Ridding of my serves I may be a 1700!

UpSideDownCarl
02-23-2017, 06:52 PM
I think, part of the idea of what NextLevel is showing is that, in spite of the fact that Der is playing someone of a noticeably higher level than him, his serves are good enough to cause the opponent some trouble. This ends up giving him a few points straight out points off the serve. And then it also helps him set up his 3rd ball decently well. The fact that he was able to do this against a higher level player and make a decent number of his 3rd balls shows he has a good serve and attack game. Even if he has other things that keep him from going up another level or three.


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OldschoolPenholder
02-23-2017, 07:43 PM
Even if he has other things that keep him from going up another level or three.


(Begin Der voice)

Don't go there Carl!

(/voice)

OldschoolPenholder
02-23-2017, 08:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfwkw_cxuew


~2:20 ouch :(

NextLevel
02-23-2017, 08:07 PM
I think we all say the same thing. The better player had a much better serve and attack game than Der_Echte. He didn't miss easy points and more consistent. His serves gave Der_Echte a hard time and his 3rd ball attack was deadly. Der_Echte won couple straight points from serving but his opponent return was also very good thus forced Der_Echte to make more mistake. The point I tried to make is one should practice with a partner who can return serves in different scenarios such as short, long, heavy, deep to body and you must be ready for such by either attacking or return short to initiate the next attack.
I still think my 1900 rating is not true. Ridding of my serves I may be a 1700!

Carl got it, but let me try again.

I think you think there is a major difference between

1) getting a point off your serve outright, vs
2) getting an easy thirdball opportunity, vs
3) getting a controlled return,
4) vs getting an offensive return vs
5) getting your serve killed.

There are different but usually related. If a 2200 player ( this is Korea so not sure what DE's opponent's level is) is making an 1900 player miss, that is expected. If a 1900 player is making a 2200 player miss, his serves are above his level, that's the bottom line. If I can serve my backspin serve to a 2300 player and get him to net it twice, it is a good serve, and it works at a higher level than usual. If he can get me to miss, that is expected. If he is getting no free point off his serve, he is serving BELOW his level. The problem is that if you can tell what he is serving so early that you are not afraid, better players can plan their return way ahead of time. At the very least, he might be locating his serves that make you feel uncomfortable which you failed to realize.

At the NA Teams, watching Hao Shuai serve was an eye opener. I had never seen so many 2500+ players netting serves and popping up balls before in my life. So if a 2700 player is rely on his third ball game to beat a player at your level, he is either having fun practicing or just doesn't have good serves. Such players do exist. LGL is attributed with saying that Boll's serves are below his overall level, and others have said similar things about WLQ. No one says that about Ma Long, for example, as he is thought of as one of the best servers in the game, same about Mizutani.

I used to be a serve and rally player. I thought I had good serves. After Brett taught me how to serve, I became one of the best servers in my club. People started hating to play me just because of my serves. I didn't beat too many better players off my serves (but I beat a few, and anyone who watches my best matches always notes that the opponent struggled with more than his fair share of my serves), but I terrorized lots of worse players and had very few upset losses.

People will tell you that you can only terrorize people with serves up to a certain level. Well, that is a half truth. Your serves won't be the only reason you win, but you can give people issues with your serve up to the world class level. I saw Hao Shuai do it. I saw Mima Ito do it. I saw Miu Hirano do it - watch the Women's world Cup final - it is one of the most disgusting matches you will ever see.

tropical
02-23-2017, 10:21 PM
I play long pips so I normally do not have much problem with good servers. To beat me someone must have a good 3rd ball attack. I played a 2300 player (he gave me 3 pts) who didn't read my serve well enough so I beat him 3-0. However, I lost to him 3-1 the next match. Then from that point on I couldn't convincingly beat him anymore. If you do not have a good 3rd ball attack and rally people will find a way to beat you easily once they figure out your serve. Figuring out an opponent serve is not that hard compared to mastering a 3rd ball attack and/or rallying.

NextLevel
02-23-2017, 10:51 PM
I play long pips so I normally do not have much problem with good servers. To beat me someone must have a good 3rd ball attack. I played a 2300 player (he gave me 3 pts) who didn't read my serve well enough so I beat him 3-0. However, I lost to him 3-1 the next match. Then from that point on I couldn't convincingly beat him anymore. If you do not have a good 3rd ball attack and rally people will find a way to beat you easily once they figure out your serve. Figuring out an opponent serve is not that hard compared to mastering a 3rd ball attack and/or rallying.

Oh, you have long pips. That explains your attitude. I win a lot of free points on serve vs long pips. I also win points off kills vs low quality returns. I sometimes have to play third ball as well. But solving a serve is not putting the ball on the table, which is how a pips player might think. Solving a serve is preventing a third ball opportunity.

tropical
02-23-2017, 11:08 PM
You are exactly right, returning a serve is not merely put the ball back on table. Like I said before, one must be able to push, chop, return long short ... you name it. But then a good player must be able to attack 3rd ball and rally. Your experience may be different but I beg to differ.

ttpshot
02-23-2017, 11:54 PM
Heavy backspin is even more important now that so many juniors back flick anything short.

All the points made are very true and I'd also add is the height of the serve. If it's not low, it'd be a lot easier to flick even with the heavy back spin.

What's peculiar and interesting about serves is that the player's favorite serve doesn't alway match the player's strength.
For example, a player might have killer backspin serve but doesn't have good opening forehand. Or a player have very good side/topspin serve but isn't very good in close table rallies. It's probably because adult TT starter don't always have regular coach who looks after the playing style like juniors.

Classic example of the matching strength between serves/shots in my opinion is Kishikawa who almost exclusively serves heavy backspin and have very good loops in opening and rallies.

Der_Echte
02-24-2017, 01:41 AM
Haha triple haha some real old vids of me maybe when I was 2 yrs plus in Korea. I was a recreational player before Korea 2009.

I am a little better level than those vids. They show enough good and bad. I have refined my serves better, but my old ways were still a good foundation. Just 3 minutes of practice every day for a year. It took me 6 months to get to a point where I was making a quality short underspin 50% of the time. I learned really slowly and my progress was real slow.

Every visit to clubs I make I show people my progressive staged path to serving.

1) Get feel for grip, impact point of bottom, and basic whip mechanics

Simply toss ball, cut under it, give it some lift, let it go down hall way, let it come back. Do this 5 minutes a day for a month.

2) Refine depth

Stand a meter or more behind table, slice under ball, get it high, bounce on your side, opponent's side, and let it come back to your side

3) Practice at table to work toss, impact height, first bounce, acceleration, grip and grip change, and fluid swing to get impact point where you want it.

Der_Echte
02-24-2017, 01:45 AM
ttps,

I am certainly a believer in real heavy ASAP, but it is the disguised variations that make me money, the heavy underspin is important to make the opponent believe a certain motion will be a heavy ball. The same over-aggressive ones who can flip the light ball, do have problems with the heavy ball, then also when I pull out carpet. The heavy serves are investment funds and the long balls I get from the dead serves are capital gains/interest.

Points I win from opponent error on serve are a form of FREE LUNCH.

NextLevel
02-24-2017, 02:15 AM
You are exactly right, returning a serve is not merely put the ball back on table. Like I said before, one must be able to push, chop, return long short ... you name it. But then a good player must be able to attack 3rd ball and rally. Your experience may be different but I beg to differ.

A good player is supposed to be able to do anything well. That's not the point. My point is that getting a weak return off a server is a requirement of a good serve. The third ball is strong against weak returns. Good returns shut down third ball and are easy vs bad serves. You can't consistently get third ball opportunities at your level without good serves. Players who can third ball behind bad serves are playing people who return their serves badly.

NextLevel
02-24-2017, 10:15 PM
So here is my serve secret sauce video - this change took my backspin serve from good to consistent point scorer. Raises the spin on your serve significantly. Sometimes I feel guilty sharing this since a tip like this is paid content on TTEdge, but I know Brett wouldn't mind and I have learned that even when I show people these things, some people still think it is trivial or not important or can't get the most out of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duv4HS2TUvs

strangeloop
02-25-2017, 11:58 AM
This is very good.. More whippy but I am struggling to forget my previous action. The whip action seems okay on its own but I just can't co-ordinate it with my ball toss. It's like I went back to level zero or -1 :)


So here is my serve secret sauce video - this change took my backspin serve from good to consistent point scorer. Raises the spin on your serve significantly. Sometimes I feel guilty sharing this since a tip like this is paid content on TTEdge, but I know Brett wouldn't mind and I have learned that even when I show people these things, some people still think it is trivial or not important or can't get the most out of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duv4HS2TUvs

NextLevel
02-25-2017, 12:09 PM
This is very good.. More whippy but I am struggling to forget my previous action. The whip action seems okay on its own but I just can't co-ordinate it with my ball toss. It's like I went back to level zero or -1 :)

I spent about 3 months (by my estimate) rebuilding the timing of my serve at Brett's request. I tried earlier but gave up and then came back to it seriously last year. I had to treat it like learning a new serve. So your issues are typical in my experience. You just have to look at the related TTEdge timing exercises and decide whether it is worth it.

strangeloop
02-25-2017, 12:34 PM
I spent about 3 months (by my estimate) rebuilding the timing of my serve at Brett's request. I tried earlier but gave up and then came back to it seriously last year. I had to treat it like learning a new serve. So your issues are typical in my experience. You just have to look at the related TTEdge timing exercises and decide whether it is worth it.

Thank you. Glad to know it's not just me. Should renew my membership to watch the timing exercises.

Der_Echte
02-25-2017, 09:19 PM
Learning new timing and swing approaches can take many months. Some minor adjustments like grip are much quicker to see results.

Loopadoop
02-26-2017, 12:35 AM
Simply stated - Serve with a purpose based on your current skill set including 3rd ball attack.

gmiller2233
03-21-2017, 08:29 PM
I was just a little curious what people thoughts are on changing where you contact the ball on a straight under spin serve?
Directly under, under your sides slightly, or under up the front a bit (like a ghost serve). I do play with this and I find it effective, but to be honest I'm not sure if its just the lel competition I often see, or the fact that (even the better players I see regularly anyway) don't seem to work on Service or return as much.
I would be interested in hearing in hearing if people use this as a part of their strategy and what benefits they find if so.
I know this is a bigger possible conversation when you factor variations of side under, no spin etc. I just thought I would introduce the topic straight under spin for clarity sake.


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Der_Echte
03-22-2017, 05:07 AM
It is a good question and you contact on different parts to make the ball do different things.

In General, for short underspin, I contact bottom of ball with tip pointed down some for sidespin.

On my no spin, at impact, blade is open 30 degrees or so, but follow through is smooth/fast, so it looks like underspin contact.

NextLevel
03-22-2017, 01:24 PM
I was just a little curious what people thoughts are on changing where you contact the ball on a straight under spin serve?
Directly under, under your sides slightly, or under up the front a bit (like a ghost serve). I do play with this and I find it effective, but to be honest I'm not sure if its just the lel competition I often see, or the fact that (even the better players I see regularly anyway) don't seem to work on Service or return as much.
I would be interested in hearing in hearing if people use this as a part of their strategy and what benefits they find if so.
I know this is a bigger possible conversation when you factor variations of side under, no spin etc. I just thought I would introduce the topic straight under spin for clarity sake.


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If you record your serves from the POV of the receiver, which is important to do, the key is to look for the heaviest deceptive motion you can disguise and sell as things other than heavy underspin. For each individual, with their wrist speed and flexibility, that may vary. Practicing contacting the bottom front is ideal as it is a contact point that most people find counter intuitive, but unless you do it like a pendulum serve sometimes (the one Schlager discusses in his famous video where he shows some Hopes candidates how to disguise spin) and with high toss, it is hard to disguise as backspin and topspin.

I serve backspin and no-spin in a variety of ways with varying degrees so I don't have baked in technique, except on my heaviest backspin serve.

songdavid98
03-22-2017, 04:19 PM
I was just a little curious what people thoughts are on changing where you contact the ball on a straight under spin serve?
Directly under, under your sides slightly, or under up the front a bit (like a ghost serve). I do play with this and I find it effective, but to be honest I'm not sure if its just the lel competition I often see, or the fact that (even the better players I see regularly anyway) don't seem to work on Service or return as much.
I would be interested in hearing in hearing if people use this as a part of their strategy and what benefits they find if so.
I know this is a bigger possible conversation when you factor variations of side under, no spin etc. I just thought I would introduce the topic straight under spin for clarity sake.


I generally try to serve by hitting the bottom of the ball. I can still serve heavy underspin and no spin with it.

I heard that it is harder to see the direction your paddle is going in when the paddle is flat.
If hit the back of the ball, apparently, it is easier to see what direction your paddle moved in, and thus easier to read what spin your opponent put on the ball.

Sometimes I change it up and do serve by hitting the back of the ball. But in that case, that's for serving long and fast.

tropical
03-22-2017, 10:41 PM
A good video on serving


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zN5GVSIMzI

gmiller2233
03-28-2017, 04:16 PM
I appreciate hearing the different experiences. I need to do some pov videos. I don't record myself enough. when I have it's always been informative. What's happening is not always what I think is happening:). a bit slammed not as much Tt time as I would like but I'll try to make that happen over the next few weeks.
I know a lot of pros do under spin with the tip pointing down some Brett, Waldner come to mind. But for now on my standard under spin Serve i hold it relevantly flat but it's angled slightly different at different points through the swing and I try to come up the front a bit and finish with the point of the blade facing forward. I settled on this because it seems like the best way for me to repeat the same mechanics/blade path but contact it at different places. If I toss the ball back a bit in my stance I can under right to left, slightly more forward toss straight under, or left to right depending on how I release through the ball. I can also releas for a top spin and contact it towards the handle and for a no spin. In theory I keep the look similar (that's my intent anyway). I'll record at some point and maybe get some feedback.

I seem to be able to generate a bit more spin if I contact the ball with the blade pointing to the side not forward through contact. I do this from time to time. When I do this I don't worry about deception quite as much I just try to spin and contact low to the to the table. Exception being a no spin a bit like Der echte describe (mine being less effective I'm sure). This need work, if there watching I'm not sure how well I sell it but does make opponents respond to a different ball. And I mostly try contact under the ball but if The opponent has say weak forehand I may contact more my side every now and again with contact point for those close to table height.
Der echte I heard you and Carl talk about changing your grip for different results spin no spin etc. can you point me to a link where you talk about that.




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Der_Echte
03-29-2017, 06:47 AM
gmiller, I talk about stuff like that so much I wouldn't be able to find it in 2 minutes.

I link you to a Korean club whose owner did a multi-shoot pic series of me serving. This is maybe 3 years after I got back from Iraq and had practiced serving (mostly fail the first 6 months) for 3 minutes a day on a rinky-dink table for a year. I am in purple jersey in the pic series.

http://cafe438.daum.net/_c21_/album_read?grpid=1NO8n&fldid=CS1I&page=5&prev_page=6&firstbbsdepth=0000azzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&lastbbsdepth=0000Lzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&contentval=0000yzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz&datanum=60&edge=&listnum=15

or easier link

http://cafe.daum.net/skytak/CS1I/60

It is my basic underspin short serve. You can see my modified LOOSE grip and how flat my blade angle starts and impacts. You can see this stuff in any slow mo vid of yourself.

You can also look at the threads where NL has recorded matches and try to slow-mo it on youtube.

One gets good spin from loose grip and efficient whip + impact. Important to contact bottom opf ball for short serve. I have a way to make no-spin by impact at 30 degree angle and quickly smoothly make blade angle flat and snap through after I impact to fake out opponent and sell it. Sometimes different follow through for LULZ.

gmiller2233
04-02-2017, 09:33 PM
Thank you Der echte! I'm completely buried with work/deadline. But totally looking forward to taking some time to view these.


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gmiller2233
04-25-2017, 06:45 PM
I nice lecture on service. He gives a simple tip that I've found very useful. 5:20 mark he talked about contact point Changing on a pendulum serve. front of the racket for backspin, back of the racket for top with the same serve motion/path. It's not new idea and pretty simple and I of course new about same swing diffrent contact points for different results ( And already contact a no spin closer the the handle) but I was tossing the ball in slightly different places to do what he talkes about ( more forward for top etc). His way of thinking about it is effective and easy to repeat. I was needlessly complicating things.

https://youtu.be/bUgpfGWsfec


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Ilia Minkin
04-25-2017, 06:49 PM
At some point I realized that it is possible to have topspin with many very different contact points on the racket. I wonder if it is worth using different contacts (for the same edirection of spin) for disguise. What do you think?

Der_Echte
04-26-2017, 05:53 AM
gmiller, at this point, I would not worry about trying to contact on different points on the bat, always go for middle to upper part of sweet spot on bat to be consistent. Some players are great at impacting ball on tip of bat, most are not and it leads to pissing away precious points.

What one does in serving is use a smooth motion fluid and impact the BALL at different points on the ball, that is much easier to control. Once a player can get the right touch (think grip pressure and CHANGING grip pressure at impact) then the majic happens easier.

suds79
05-03-2017, 02:45 PM
Does anybody here have a good, fast down the line serve? If so, what do you like to do to execute it?

My situation might be a little different given I'm a left handed penholder but my main setup is based on the HeZhiWen style of point.

Main Option: (side/top & side/back variations)
12984

Option Two: The down the line change up if they cheat over too far.

Here's where I'd like to change how I do this. As it stands now, trying to do a pendulum serve down the line seems most natural for me. However, the ball tends to break like this (note: it doesn't break this much but you get the idea. It's just how powerpoint was drawing it up)
12985

What I don't like is the ball is curving back into the backhand for the right handed player. I would think ideally I would like this serve to go straight to make them reach more and I would also think that a straight down the line serve could also be faster. Should I go pure topspin down the line. Dead fast down the line?

Does anybody have this particular serve down or maybe a video of someone demonstrating it? Thanks.

HeZhiWen by the way curves his down the line serve also with his standard pendulum motion. He's just 10x better at making it faster than I am. So it can be done. Probably just a practice thing. But I thought I'd get the ball rolling on ideas on this serve.

I think it's important to note this is on the short length of the table. So the margin for error is greater if going too fast.

Perhaps I should experiment with reverse pendulum short to have the ball break away from them. IDK. It's an idea.

Ilia Minkin
05-03-2017, 03:14 PM
An option is to serve flat (light topspin) and fast


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lQP33tJJfg

suds79
05-03-2017, 04:53 PM
well damn that's exactly what i'm looking for. And on ping skills no less. SMH. I should have seen this.

Thanks for the tip. Will get out & practice, practice, practice. Thx.

OldschoolPenholder
05-03-2017, 09:13 PM
There's a youtube on how to serve a rocket serve in japanese... can't find it now

here's a vid of my bad form rocket serve and mostly 3rd ball punch down the line

using old racket and longer serve motion (which i've been using predominately when i used to play a lot) ... with newer racket and working on shorter serve motion, not quite getting the placement or speed i want ... still working on it


https://vimeo.com/184838986

OldschoolPenholder
05-05-2017, 04:49 PM
Need to rewatch this a few times to really imprint in my old man pea brain.

Thank you yet again NL!


So here is my serve secret sauce video - this change took my backspin serve from good to consistent point scorer. Raises the spin on your serve significantly. Sometimes I feel guilty sharing this since a tip like this is paid content on TTEdge, but I know Brett wouldn't mind and I have learned that even when I show people these things, some people still think it is trivial or not important or can't get the most out of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Duv4HS2TUvs

OldschoolPenholder
05-05-2017, 04:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdt5YBY_82E

gmiller2233
05-19-2017, 05:06 PM
A topic for discussion I was wondering about dimitrij ovtcharov back hand and tomahawk service. Why does he do both and what does each do that the other can't? My guess would be the backhand serve is often top spin and might have the ability to be shorter although it's not always short, and I might be wrong but I'm guessing not alway top. I was just curious thought I would see what people's opinions. Will try to post a video showing both.


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gmiller2233
05-19-2017, 05:10 PM
https://youtu.be/IDZEOxgQQH8


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gmiller2233
09-19-2017, 05:48 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lA18miieFrY&feature=youtu.be


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gmiller2233
09-19-2017, 05:58 PM
Above video is a bit old but it's it's still pretty amazing how YOSHIMURA Maharu was fooling people for a while. Have not seen the other players look silly as much trying to return his stuff but still great service game.


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suds79
09-19-2017, 06:01 PM
Yoshimura's serve has always been one of the more nasty ones around.

I like the concept of it. The hand and wrist is kinda behind the ball which allows you to toss it closer to your body making it hard to see vs out to the side and swiping under it like a normal backspin serve.

Anyways, if he's coming from behind the ball, I always thought he was done 1 of 2 things.

1 - topspin. contact back of the ball followed by fake the scooping under motion very, very quickly.
or
2 - Backspin. Same motion but actually contact the ball with that soouping under motion.
(this one I never could figure out how he's getting so much under action given the wrist is behind the ball and basically it plays little to no part in the process)

However this video almost seems to indicate that he's somewhat doing some reverse penhold action here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_daA5oIOx8

suds79
09-19-2017, 06:05 PM
The action Yoshimura is doing almost looks like what these guys are practicing in this video.

Although the guy in the video largely does nothing but topspin from what I see. His biggest tell is how fast the serve is. Hard to make a backspin ball behave like that.

Nontheless, and interesting one to watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fd6-ddR3cg

NextLevel
09-19-2017, 07:27 PM
Yoshimura was hiding the serve with his head. Once that became harder for him to continue and people figured out how to read the serve regardless, his serve advantages were not as strong. He is still a dangerous and talented player.

suds79
09-20-2017, 12:44 PM
I'm continually amazed how after playing TT consistently for 8 years (started late and I know some of you have played much longer) how you can still learn things. Even things that are your strength.

I suppose this is why you should always practice your serves. I've always searched for that quick after fake motion that you see some top players have. Typically the paddle goes out to the side. Feeling that my hand speed just wasn't fast or quick enough to execute that while still being able to put good spin on the ball, for some time I largely gave up on that concept.

But those last videos inspired me to try again. Furthermore, I don't really execute this "up/down" serve as it's called in some videos. I do pendulum, reverse pendulum, sometimes punch serve but never this one.

It's early and I still need more reps with it but I honestly think I've got it. If you check the video in post #71. Go to 3:24. I would that is exactly what I've been able to execute last night except I was focusing on keeping my follow through below the table to continue to try to hide the paddle after contact.

I liked the motion these guys were using but the more expert guy (the one who was teaching) as far as I could tell was only doing this serve as a topspin serve. I can't have a serve that doesn't have any variation. I mean what's the point.

But I did it several times last night. So in that sample at 3:24 in the video, in my mind it was as simple as contact the back of the ball for topspin and just be sure to touch the ball on the bottom for backspin. In either case, you motion should be pretty much the same and quick. I'm excited to develop this.

It's funny but as you practice serve by yourself at home, you can start to tell when you have something that's good (make service practice balls shown on my youtube channel. They help) and when something you're working on is just sub par. This has a lot of potential. :)

Flatstyk
09-21-2017, 06:54 PM
Suds, thanks for posting #71. I have a serve similar to what is shown...but some of the detail of what they were doing inspired me go do a serve session yesterday...and I am excited to find I have a new variation that I think will pay off well!

ttmonster
09-21-2017, 07:53 PM
There are lot of people who hide serve contact point with their Heads .... even if you tell them they won't acknowledge mainly because its harder to catch and they go through tournaments without somebody else catching it ... people will only care about the serves being wrong if they lose matches in tournaments because of those serves ...

sanavasaraja
09-22-2017, 07:40 AM
There are lot of people who hide serve contact point with their Heads .... even if you tell them they won't acknowledge mainly because its harder to catch and they go through tournaments without somebody else catching it ... people will only care about the serves being wrong if they lose matches in tournaments because of those serves ...

How exactly can you hide the contact point with your HEAD? As far as I know, I could be mistaken, the contact point has to be visible from both net posts at the height of the top of the net. Trying to think of a head hanging that low makes for a funny imagination. Did you mean hand or am I wrong about the rules here?

sanavasaraja
09-22-2017, 07:43 AM
I have always wondered how badly a magician with a great sleight of hand would screw over his opponents at table tennis serves..

gmiller2233
09-24-2017, 05:00 PM
I can't do YOSHIMURA serve not even A poor replica. the reverse action does not work for me for one, but the snap up action with that movement seems particularly strange. But I will say flipping or twisting the lead contact edge on the side or the lead tip depending on your motion (like YOSHIMURA does) gives a interesting variation and that has been fun to play with. I use it mostly with the jab or punch serve but I don't think I'm always getting the most out of that action. And if I remember correctly the punch serve video that was posted a wile back with the Japanese player exciting his different jab serves did an edge pop or quick turn with some of his serves.
I was wondering if some one can tell me what YOSHIMURA serve is doing? When I watch the video and the way the ball is coming off the opponents blade it looks the ball might be corkscrewing in at times. Am I wrong?


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Ilia Minkin
09-24-2017, 05:31 PM
Looks like Yoshmiura's serve is a sort of reverse pendulum. I strongly believe that the reverse pendulum serve is the most difficult serve in table tennis to master. Even if you take out all fake movements and simplify as much as possible, it is still hard. It took me three years of hard work to learn how to generate reasonable amount of backspin on it consistently, whilst keep the ball reasonably low and short. And I still make faults in matches. Now imagine what would happen if you add all those fancy bells and whistles that Yoshimura's doing. Of course it will be tough. He also hides the ball on contact with his head. If I recall correctly, in a podcast made by Dan, Kristian Karlsson said that he had been practicing the reverse serve for a long time and it was still not there. I think I saw him using it recently, so he probably broke through.

Ilia Minkin
09-24-2017, 05:38 PM
The guys in the video above show the punch (aka hook, aka jab) serve. I don't think it is the serve Yoshimura does.


How exactly can you hide the contact point with your HEAD? As far as I know, I could be mistaken, the contact point has to be visible from both net posts at the height of the top of the net. Trying to think of a head hanging that low makes for a funny imagination. Did you mean hand or am I wrong about the rules here?

Watch below at 0:54 :) I am pretty sure that Ma Long and other top Chinese do that too, just search for some close-ups of his serves (there are a lot).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiuMB7yYRDI

sanavasaraja
09-24-2017, 05:52 PM
But the ball is visible at the point of contact, isn't it? I can see it, and the camera doesn't appear to be below the net posts (still not sure whether I got that rule right). Head however seems to partially hide the ball for a splitsecond before the contact, which admittedly is also wrong

UpSideDownCarl
09-24-2017, 06:00 PM
How exactly can you hide the contact point with your HEAD?

Head hiding the ball is definitely possible. Most pros get pretty low with their whole torso when they serve. A lot of amateurs don’t but the pros usually do.

Here:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170924/d967f8d894fa43d1dde53697d25ff08f.jpg

It is a composite photo of three moments during the serve toss. In the second image, the ball is definitely the same height as Ma Long’s Head. If the ball is also in line with Ma Long’s head, which is likely, then the ball is behind ML’s head for anyone receiving serve.

Given that the ball is falling and the trajectory in which these guys throw up and back, it is highly likely that this ball went behind ML’s head while it dropped.

In this service tutorial, you can see it from the side. But when they show it from the far side of the table, it is clear that the ball goes behind ML’s head almost every time he serves.


https://youtu.be/0DSy2hmtPKU

In the tutorial ML is much higher during serve than he is in the photo and than he would be in most match play.

Most of the top pros do something very similar. Not Samsonov. But most top pros.

And the ball passing behind the head itself is against the rules, but when these guys are lower, the head will Block the view of the contact. They all know how to do that whether they choose to or not.


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UpSideDownCarl
09-24-2017, 06:14 PM
Here:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170924/d967f8d894fa43d1dde53697d25ff08f.jpg

It is a composite photo of three moments during the serve toss.

Also notice:

1) In the first photo the ball is in front of ML’s face.

2) In the second photo ML’s head is lower and further forward and the ball is lower and further back.

This means the trajectory of the toss is a little back away from the table.

3) In the third photo the ball is lower and closer to the table and so is ML’s head.

This means that the third photo is after contact and that contact happened, either:

a) While the ball was behind ML’s head
or
b) Just after the ball dropped under the height of ML’s head.

Also, it is worth noting that on many serves, ITTF start with a side view, and then during the toss switch to a front view so it is kind of hard to tell most of the time if the serve is legal or not.


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tropical
09-24-2017, 07:03 PM
This is why I hate the rule of not allowing blocking of the contact. Hard to enforce and sometimes referees can go wrong.

ttmonster
09-24-2017, 07:25 PM
Its easy to enforce , if the ITTF decides to move one of the umpires behind the receiver based on whether its lefty or righty and or have more umpires , but in the second case they would need to pay for more umpires ... so they don't have time for these things , making money by illegally getting patents before equipment change and winning elections is more important to them ...

This is why I hate the rule of not allowing blocking of the contact. Hard to enforce and sometimes referees can go wrong.

UpSideDownCarl
09-24-2017, 08:16 PM
... so they don't have time for these things , making money by illegally getting patents before equipment change and winning elections is more important to them ...

Hahaha. I wonder how many people realize that the original reason for the change to the plastic ball was a patent by Sharara & XSF on the seamless ball.

But the other companies went to court to be able to produce balls (seamed) that didn’t require them to pay patent fees to XSF and Sharara.

Good one Monster.


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Der_Echte
09-25-2017, 02:26 AM
Monster, since you have changed your status, should I utter "No Shyt Sherlock" every few days ??

tropical
09-25-2017, 05:22 PM
Hahaha. I wonder how many people realize that the original reason for the change to the plastic ball was a patent by Sharara & XSF on the seamless ball.

Shame on them! Greedy dirty bastards. :mad:


Its easy to enforce , if the ITTF decides to move one of the umpires behind the receiver based on whether its lefty or righty and or have more umpires , but in the second case they would need to pay for more umpires ... so they don't have time for these things , making money by illegally getting patents before equipment change and winning elections is more important to them ...

If it costs money to enforce then it is not easy. I still think the rule should be omitted. I remember table tennis in the old days with players hiding their serves was still spectacular. All the top players were doing it so no one really took advantage of anyone.
But I agree that ITTF folks are nothing but bunch of thieves, dishonest bastards like soccer folks and ones in similar sports.

Baal
09-25-2017, 05:58 PM
My understanding though, is that the patent for a seamless ball was owned by the wife of an ITTF official, and not Sharara, but one of his close cronies. Also that the process in question was NOT the one that Xu Shao Fa came out with, and that the process patented by the ITTF guy resulted in a ball that was even more crappy than the ones we actually saw.

I am working from what might be a flawed memory here, though.

in addition, my understanding is that DHS and XSF were partners with Palio and some other people, and that the deal somehow broke down. If it hadn't, the first plastic balls we would have seen on the market would have been seamless balls that at least had a reasonable bounce height.

But when that broke down, DHS was forced to come out with a plastic ball in a hurry so they turned to cellulose acetate as the material, and basically used the same process they had used for celluloid. The resulting balls were terrible beyond my comprehension.

Nittaku began to develop the ABS seamed ball, and other companies including DHS followed suit, although I am worried that DHS may be in the process of taking a good ball that they had and changing it to a bad one.

gmiller2233
10-18-2017, 06:04 PM
Does anyone have a good source for foot stomping when and why kind of thing? Also a resource that talked about the transition from service to ready position.


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Clu37
10-18-2017, 08:15 PM
People stomp their foot to hide the noise of the contact made on the ball. If you can hear the serve, you can be able to tell whether or not it has a lot of spin or no spin/weak spin. Servers stomp their foot to muzzle that noise, making it more difficult for the receiver to tell if it has spin and how much it has.

gmiller2233
01-24-2018, 04:50 PM
General comment and questions regarding service and seeing different looks in a match.

I’m noticing the times when I have the most trouble with opponents service game is when they often showing several different looks. That of course includes variations of serves, and serves i have seen less often, less experience with, but more than that someone that shows different serves through out delivered from different locations at the table, and or with different mechanics ( backhand, reverse pendulum, punch etc etc). It seems even if the quality may be a bit less the different looks at times is enough for them to get a weak returns. Which is the point I suppose.

Now to my question. Would be interested to know how many different serves looks some of you play and how often to you show them generally. I’m sure my trouble with this is somewhat do to a lack of exposure to some service types etc, and it could be something that has a bit of a threshold to it (ie at some point or lel of play it would be reverent, etc but not sure). I myself play a few different types of serves from different locations depending on the the opponent etc. there have been a few occasions I have felt like I’m messing to much, but As long as I’m mindful more than not It seems to be a advantage.






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Schlaftablette
01-27-2018, 02:50 PM
Probably a bit late to the party, but this video might help a lot to understand what makes a good serve.
I am too lazy to translate everything now, but maybe Der_Echte has some time? ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUO1w2A3BwQ&t=54s

Some key points:
2:43 - placement of the first touch of a backspin serve
3:14 - adding a no spin serve with the same placement
8:30 - bodymotion when serving
8:42 - how to hold the blade and when to use the wrist
8:57 - topspin hook-serve with added backspin motion after impact
10:11 - backspin hook-serve with added topspin motion after impact
10:52 - same backspin hook-serve motion but placement to the forehand side
11:12 - pendulum serve with hook-serve starting motion (grip change!) to reverse pendulum ending

Der_Echte
01-27-2018, 08:50 PM
I am too lazy to translate everything now, but maybe Der_Echte has some time? ;)

Some key points:
2:43 - placement of the first touch of a backspin serve
3:14 - adding a no spin serve with the same placement
8:30 - bodymotion when serving
8:42 - how to hold the blade and when to use the wrist
8:57 - topspin hook-serve with added backspin motion after impact
10:11 - backspin hook-serve with added topspin motion after impact
10:52 - same backspin hook-serve motion but placement to the forehand side
11:12 - pendulum serve with hook-serve starting motion (grip change!) to reverse pendulum ending

Your key points are a good summary. The volume is low, coach doesn't really tell the young TT athlete much of how to do stuff... he just says do this or do this, except at 6:30 and 8:50 where he explains a follow through motion... When whatever serve he wants done is exceptional, there is slow motion replay.

gmiller2233
02-02-2018, 09:17 PM
That’s a great video thanks for posting.


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laser23
02-04-2018, 01:42 PM
Is the foot stomping thing really about the sound only?
I think it has something to do with balance.

Schlaftablette
02-05-2018, 01:14 PM
Some people stomp with the foot so that the other player can't hear the sound which the rubber produces when connecting with the ball. Therefore the opponent can't tell by the sound what kind of spin is produced.
Other people stomp with the foot to disguise the connection time of the ball with the rubber. Especially usefull when serving a double motion serve.
For example: first motion of the serve is backspin and the second motion is topspin. You hit the ball during the first motion but stomp when executing the second motion to fake the connection time as a topspin serve.
Hopefully my explaination is understandable. :)

talbon
02-05-2018, 11:27 PM
... and other people stomp to regain balance. Or because they've picked it up as kids while watching other players, and never took the time to unlearn something so trivial. On some serves it's natural not to stomp, yet on others it's not. Go with the flow? Inventing and improving new serves is tough enough as is.

Like many other shots, the serve is quite 'explosive' (lots of acceleration over a small period of time) and it will almost always show in some funny way, stomping or not.

EmRatThich
02-06-2018, 07:38 AM
The placement and how the next ball returned is very important too. Chinese coach focuses a lot on this aspect. It will help develop your playing style routine.

Herbert
02-06-2018, 07:43 AM
Is the foot stomping thing really about the sound only?
I think it has something to do with balance.

I think it's about balance too. For me it's a way to time the contact with the ball better.

ttdad
02-06-2018, 03:52 PM
I am sure different equipment has different effects on the spin. After watching some of the videos for example Yoshimura's serve, it made me wonder if he is using setup that has a ton more spin than traditional setups? Also difference in setup (hard v soft, tacky v non tacky etc.) would mean different technique application to get similar spin. Any opinions? Learning a lot from this post. Thanks