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TableTennisDaily
02-23-2017, 09:53 PM
What a way to win an insane match! 13-11 in the 7th set! LIang Jingkun vs Kenta Matsudaira!

Was Liang's shot in or out during the men's singles round of 32 at the Qatar Open? (https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?14935-Qatar-Open-2017) Have your say!


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Boogar
02-23-2017, 10:22 PM
Definitely out! He hit the ball from outside the table and it bounced downwards. This or the table had a dent there...

Tinykin
02-23-2017, 11:31 PM
Not enough frames to judge accurately but it does look very much like a side. But the umpire was closest to the action

TTFrenzy
02-23-2017, 11:49 PM
Adam bobrow just commented on his FB account

"It was clearly out according to me and probably everyone in the stadium including the tournament referee, all of the ITTF staff, tournament staff and other players. I wanted to scream that this was the wrong call... or more specifically "Matsudaira's point!!!! It was 100% Matsudaira's point!!!!" not because I was upset at the umpire... he did his best and I think he was influenced by Liang Jingkun's reaction, but because it seemed that the umpire wasn't sure and there wasn't much of a response saying otherwise. I think even Liang Jingkun knew. It was really hard for me to stay quiet and I still feel uneasy about it."

TTFrenzy
02-23-2017, 11:52 PM
My take is that after replaying it a few times, you can actually hear that the hit has a different sound than hitting wood only (I think it did touch the wooden side, but also the metal side, the sound is less crisp than a 100% wood hit sound). So it definitely didnt touch ONLY the upper surface of the table even like a "tangent" on a circle which is extremely rare to happen but it does happen.

The downwards trajectory is also a factor that indicates it was out

laistrogian
02-24-2017, 12:17 AM
LJK definitely knows that the ball was out and then rushed to handshaking the umpire. He saw matsudaira was trying to object the decision but ignored him on purpose. ITTF definitely needs install a slow-motion camera system to monitor and help umpire making decision while allowing players to make objection. Such thing has been done by Interational Badminton Federation where not only umpire can call the computer operator to make accurate decision, players are allowed to make objection about the umpire decision and hence re-reviewing the point

FANtasticPanda
02-24-2017, 01:12 AM
It was clear that he shaked the umpire's hand after the score was flipped, which means the match's done. Nothing wrong to do that IMO. Both Umpires were pretty sure that the ball hit the edge on the side and firmly turned down Kenta's request when he's complaining.

FANtasticPanda
02-24-2017, 01:22 AM
Adam bobrow just commented on his FB account

"It was clearly out according to me and probably everyone in the stadium including the tournament referee, all of the ITTF staff, tournament staff and other players. I wanted to scream that this was the wrong call... or more specifically "Matsudaira's point!!!! It was 100% Matsudaira's point!!!!" not because I was upset at the umpire... he did his best and I think he was influenced by Liang Jingkun's reaction, but because it seemed that the umpire wasn't sure and there wasn't much of a response saying otherwise. I think even Liang Jingkun knew. It was really hard for me to stay quiet and I still feel uneasy about it."




He's harsh. I would say as an official commentator it is not proper for him to use his amplified voice to influence others. In fact, how could he be 100% sure that everyone in the stadium including LJK knew it? Was he positioned exactly where the umpires and referees were? Judging from the only video we got so far, the umpire pointed to the edge of the table event before LJK's roaring, and then quickly raised his right hand to note that it was LJK's point. LJK went to shake the referee's hand only after the score was flipped. It is really unfair to judge Liang from this perspective, shame on Adam.

Shiro
02-24-2017, 02:10 AM
Ball is out. When it hit the table, it bounced to the side very quickly rather that jumping upwards a bit.

TTFrenzy
02-24-2017, 03:06 AM
He's harsh. I would say as an official commentator it is not proper for him to use his amplified voice to influence others. In fact, how could he be 100% sure that everyone in the stadium including LJK knew it? Was he positioned exactly where the umpires and referees were? Judging from the only video we got so far, the umpire pointed to the edge of the table event before LJK's roaring, and then quickly raised his right hand to note that it was LJK's point. LJK went to shake the referee's hand only after the score was flipped. It is really unfair to judge Liang from this perspective, shame on Adam.

Relax, he didnt judge anyone. He was sure because he was watching the match up close and with many spectators around him, so he obviously disccussed it with others. As for liang jingkun he said "i think" he didnt state "im 100% sure LJK knew it was out". He even gave props to the umpire, lets not forget umpires are human beings and also make mistakes or poor judgment.

We all remember what yu ziyang did against mizutani in japan open 2014. The ball was clearly out, yu ziyang spotted that the umpire gave the point but was not 100 % sure about it and he "confirmed" it with a nod towards the umpire.

You seem to forget that bobrow is a commentator not the official voice of ITTF, if people get influeced by "amplified" voices its their own choice. He said that on his personal facebook account, and if I didnt knew that Adam was there personally I wouldnt copied/pasted his comment


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tby5V1ZU0Q8

the "debated" point is @ 2:58

TTFrenzy
02-24-2017, 03:20 AM
In the slow mo, you can clearly see the umpire changing the scoreboard on mizutani's side. Then something weird happens, self doubt probably who knows only the umpire knows. Then you can see yu ziyang spotting this incident and immediately confirming that the point is his, 2 seconds before he threw the racket away in frustration to get the towel cayse he knew he missed an easy smash.

So I wouldnt find it hard to believe any possible explanation about LJK immediately celebrating. He maybe thought it was in, he maybe did it on purpose, maybe he wanted to win so much that he thought it did touch who knows. Personally i dont give much attention nor do I accuse LJK because pro tours have no significance (as I said in another post, he will still get scolded for not winning convincingly against kenta). If it was a world champ,cup or olympics I would definitely protest if I was matsudaira or his coach. Debatable points should have a replay.

Samsonov and persson actually agreed to replay a point in 2008 olympics which was a fantastic moments they didnt give a shit about what the umpires were saying (chinese crowed also booed, so u can see how umpires get affected also). overriding the existing rules. ITTF should have introduced a new rule long ago. the umpire with the help of replay and after a debatable edge point should decide if the point will be replayed or not

Ending, my point is that if people reacted more, spectators/coaches then maybe the umpires would have think it over more thoroughly. We definitely need a new rule.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi55ant1hug point is @ 6:44

laistrogian
02-24-2017, 03:58 AM
He's harsh. I would say as an official commentator it is not proper for him to use his amplified voice to influence others. In fact, how could he be 100% sure that everyone in the stadium including LJK knew it? Was he positioned exactly where the umpires and referees were? Judging from the only video we got so far, the umpire pointed to the edge of the table event before LJK's roaring, and then quickly raised his right hand to note that it was LJK's point. LJK went to shake the referee's hand only after the score was flipped. It is really unfair to judge Liang from this perspective, shame on Adam.

The reason why he spoke is because he's actually a player before a commentator, a decent one (USATT 2100) as well. An edge ball doesn't look like that, especially when it hits the side, not the back.

Do you think LJK doesn't know that? Even club players can spot that, how can he a CNT player failed to spot it. If you are trying to say that LJK isn't at fault or the ball actually hit the edge, I wouldn't hesitate to call you either a CNT fanboy or failing to understand table tennis

Sali
02-24-2017, 07:49 AM
One thing is bad for sure, the umpire does not care about who's point is. They just follow the players reaction. I just Wonder why do we need umpires if the work like this.

PiZa
02-24-2017, 08:22 AM
Really shitty way to lost match. Matsudaira played very good. From this camera for me rather " out ".

iammaru
02-24-2017, 04:33 PM
One thing is bad for sure, the umpire does not care about who's point is. They just follow the players reaction. I just Wonder why do we need umpires if the work like this.
+1 I saw many times the umpires didn't know what happened and just followed the players' reaction, I mean not just this match. Sometimes net serves and edge balls are really hard to see for human eyes.
But really, if they were not sure about the edge ball, they should have considered both players' reaction instead of only LJK's. I noticed Matsudaira celebrated the point as well. If they are still not sure, they should ask the players, if the players can't come to agreement, then replay the point. For me, that is a better solution instead of "guessing" and "following".

Razor
02-24-2017, 04:35 PM
My first reaction was it was a side. Obviously LJK was eager to put the match and a super-close win behind him so out went sportsmanship. The referee took the path of least resistance and awarded the point to LJK. What a farce....

Tinykin
02-24-2017, 05:57 PM
Having a look again on my big screen, I now realise that the camera's point of view is from a really high angle, so the trajectory of the ball compared to the table is not clear. The only person that had a good view, other than the players, was the umpire. His decision was immediate which means that he was pretty sure about what happened.

M51
02-24-2017, 07:41 PM
Very poor sportsmanship on Liang Jingkun's part.

FloKing
02-24-2017, 08:11 PM
Out! It goes way too fast to the floor.
Too bad of an ending after such a great rally and fight from Matsudaira to save the match ball :(

TT_Rogue
02-24-2017, 08:52 PM
this was out and ovtcharovs ball from today was in

Anders Persson
02-24-2017, 09:19 PM
Dimas ball was out. He hit the the ball outside the table n it went down

TTFrenzy
02-25-2017, 01:19 AM
this was out and ovtcharovs ball from today was in

No. Dima's was out also.

TTFrenzy
02-25-2017, 01:33 AM
Having a look again on my big screen, I now realise that the camera's point of view is from a really high angle, so the trajectory of the ball compared to the table is not clear. The only person that had a good view, other than the players, was the umpire. His decision was immediate which means that he was pretty sure about what happened.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eahAIjVDkVg

Actually it was not immediate and the umpire that changes the score clearly has his doubts, both of the umpires didnt have immediate reaction like in a real point. And even at that angle you can clearly see that the ball trajectory is downwards

Anyway LJK won, but the point should be at least replayed, which means rules MUST change (definitely a debatable point, the indications show it was out but no one from us can be 100 % sure) to be fair and square.

Razor
02-25-2017, 07:33 AM
this was out and ovtcharovs ball from today was in

ovtcharov's shot was out, his shot was about a couple inches from the side. the prior point at 9-9 ended rather badly for him and he looked pissed. at 10-9 he was more than happy to grab the 'advantage'. he's normally quite sportsmanlike so his reaction after the point and flinging the bat was odd.

Tinykin
02-25-2017, 08:22 AM
TTfrenzy, look at the video again. Look at the umpire only. He's the one on your right facing the screen. The one with the scoreboard is the assistant umpire.
Keep your eye on the umpire, when LJK hits the ball onto the table, the umpire immediately points to the table indicating an edge ball and calls the score orally, he then raises his hand to indicate the player that won the point.
I say again, the umpire's reaction was immediate.

Murre5
02-25-2017, 09:41 AM
There has to be another video with a different angle on that shot. But with the angle we have it looks like its out. umpires really should have access to slow motion cameras or something...

TTFrenzy
02-25-2017, 03:41 PM
TTfrenzy, look at the video again. Look at the umpire only. He's the one on your right facing the screen. The one with the scoreboard is the assistant umpire.
Keep your eye on the umpire, when LJK hits the ball onto the table, the umpire immediately points to the table indicating an edge ball and calls the score orally, he then raises his hand to indicate the player that won the point.
I say again, the umpire's reaction was immediate.

Yes indeed that is what happens (still it takes 1-2 seconds for the umpire to raise his hand immediately I dont consider that as an immediate reaction I dont know if my eyes fool me but I see some slight hesitation in body language...I know im probably going to scientific with this but a reflex reaction is immediate 0.15 to 0.4 seconds, 1-2 seconds is just too much to consider it immediate), but the other umpire has his doubts he still hesitates to change the score. I personally dont accuse anyone of this weird situation, who knows what LJK the umpire and kenta had in mind. My "objection" is that the game definitely needs a new rule like in tennis with video review.

Here some insight from bobrow on facebook . To clarify no one can actually know 100% if it iwas in or out, unless we have slow mo footage from a side camera
12292

TTFrenzy
02-25-2017, 03:43 PM
Ah crap you need to DL the image to see with better zoom. Im pasting adam's words anyway

The umpire later saw the video and apparently couldn't sleep. He realized he had made the wrong call. It is human to err and the umpire made an honest mistake. I spoke to the referee and what the umpire "sees" falls into a category called "matter of fact" which the referee cannot question or overrule. So, as difficult as it was for the referee not to say something, he knows where the line is drawn in terms of his role. There is no punishment necessary for the umpire. If it were consistent that one umpire missed many calls, I assume they would not be given as many opportunities to umpire. ITTF is always looking to reduce errors and the conversation about video replay and challenge system is definitely happening but not as simple as we might wish to implement. The good news is, things are moving in the right direction... upwards.