PDA

View Full Version : Penhold Long pimple Technique



James Livesey
03-26-2017, 10:52 PM
I've started playing LP as a penhold player and am getting on very well. I serve with a tacky, slightly soft rubber and then twiddle to LP. I also RPB with my inverted rubber to attack. However, I realize the LP game for penhold is quite developed but cannot find any written material due to it being a strictly chinese discipline. I can chop top spin both BH and FH and this is very effective, however I am struggling mostly with backspin. if they loop hard topspin and I chop it to give them back the spin as backspin, then they can push it low and long. I understand that if I hit this, it is topspin, but find it difficult to attack because I still have to open the face of my racket slightly and move upwards, producing a weak topspin shot they can attack. When I watch penhold LP players they do a lot of side swiping. Is this just deception? Is there a way to produce good FH kills against backspin or do I just go for nasty angles/body feints? My RPB loop is definitely my best shot so if I can loop against backspin and then chop the return ball, I almost always win the point, as there is such a ridiculous amount of backspin. But as of right now, I'm chopping and blocking, and psuedo looping backspin. there has to be more to this art? I apologise if this has already been discussed on this forum. I had a look and couldn't find much. This is such a niche, and potentially under exploited tactic in TT, as RPB makes such a radical difference. Also, any names of Penhold LP players would be very helpful. I am aware of Zhou Xintong, who is most like my style, and to a degree Tin Tin Ho. But I am more interested in the LP technique than the RPB. My RPB loop and serve are my greatest strengths.

genrel001
03-27-2017, 01:09 AM
Hi James!

Remember your old post about using LP for penhold FH, well that got me thinking. I ditched my shakehand style and went back to LP PH again. :p

I play hitting game mostly on the FH side. Yes you can hit through top spin and can even loop a back spin. For hitting topspin what I do is I make a short fast brushing stroke, but you also have to consider the height of the bounce of the ball and must hit the ball at its peak. Hit it early and you will go over the table, hit it late and you will catch the net. If my opponent make a high arcing loop that's impossible for me to reach, that's when I chop the ball. Also if the ball is so low, that's when I block/push.

Another thing is to adjust your BH fingers, extend it fully like gripping a Jpen with no RPB. RPB grip like wang hoa's allows you to have free wrist movement which in my opinion you don't need when using LP. What you need is control and a little power for hitting. This is fine for me as I don't have a consistent RPB. I only use RPB when I'm 100% sure it will land on the table. :rolleyes:

On the TPB side my favorite stroke is the side sweep. I don't know about the others but for me it is the easiest stroke to lift the ball or push the ball as "straight pushing" the ball makes me end up mostly on the net.

As for references on the style, it's really hard to come by. Trial and error is the best way so far.

Anyway, thanks to you I'm back in penhold land again.:D

suds79
03-27-2017, 05:13 PM
Holy smokes another fellow penhold twiddler. That is rare. i don't find many others to converse with.

So the LP swipe vs backspin in my experience doesn't actually do much for deception. Perhaps you can get your opponent to hesitate which is good but I do it simply because it's easier for me (and possibly others also?) to execute the attacking stroke vs that. So i would recommend doing that. For me the point winner isn't the power of the shot. No. You're probably playing close to the table so you're playing angles. It's the placement of the shot (which seems easy IMO) that wins the point.

Here's a video match I had with another Jpener.

Full video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVH5yl7wUWQ&

Swipe vs backspin vis (infinite looper)
http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=pVH5yl7wUWQ&p=n#/501;507

So maybe it's a left handed thing which is possible but I can't tell you how many times I've gotten this point vs people. Show obvious backspin serve to encourage them to push, twiddle, swipe to the open court or their weak spot. Most of the time, they just assume you will push back if they keep their return low. But with the LPs, that's really a non-factor.

Back to your original Q on dealing with backspin. Of course you can always twiddle back to inverted and loop with your FH if you like. But that might not be what you're looking for.

I suppose I will leave you with this. Look up Wang Qiu Yi. She plays the exact same style you do. Serves inverted FH, twiddles. Plays pretty much only LP (palio ck531a) on FH & inverted on BH. She is by far the best LP penhold attacker i've ever seen.

Here's a Youtube Playlist of Penhold LP/Twiddlers I've started. She, among others are featured here.

Since you can't get well written instruction, best thing you can do is watch & learn.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKqSWJv6VSgzmkFGAlD-TTKNYTt9-Ns6t

PS - Oh yeah. One last thing I forgot. i keep to the curled fingers approach simply because with extended fingers, I just cannot twiddle quickly.

genrel001
03-28-2017, 12:29 AM
You got some game. I agree placement is the most vital aspect of playing LP PH. I see we have different philosophy on the grip. But I get our differences, you bend your fingers to maximize your twiddling and I extend mine to maximize power and speed since I rarely twiddle, heck I even serve with my RPB.

Thanks for the info and videos suds79.

PS. Is your serve legal? I mean, you're covering it with your back. :rolleyes:

suds79
03-28-2017, 03:45 AM
You got some game. I agree placement is the most vital aspect of playing LP PH. I see we have different philosophy on the grip. But I get our differences, you bend your fingers to maximize your twiddling and I extend mine to maximize power and speed since I rarely twiddle, heck I even serve with my RPB.

Thanks for the info and videos suds79.

PS. Is your serve legal? I mean, you're covering it with your back. :rolleyes:

I hear ya. Truth be told from a feel & power prospective, I prefer the fingers extended approach. I do mine simply from a twiddle prospective. Well that and I like it more for a FH to TPB transition prospective.

Anyways, Yeah I would say my serve is legal. The angle in the video isn't the best for judging that. Now I turn my back. I try to hide my paddle during the serve (which is completely legal) only showing it upon the point of contact. That's the part you have to do. But hiding the face of my blade (which side am i serving with on top of reading the movement) before is completely fine. They just have to see the contact.

James Livesey
03-28-2017, 09:30 PM
Hi James!

Remember your old post about using LP for penhold FH, well that got me thinking. I ditched my shakehand style and went back to LP PH again. :p

I play hitting game mostly on the FH side. Yes you can hit through top spin and can even loop a back spin. For hitting topspin what I do is I make a short fast brushing stroke, but you also have to consider the height of the bounce of the ball and must hit the ball at its peak. Hit it early and you will go over the table, hit it late and you will catch the net. If my opponent make a high arcing loop that's impossible for me to reach, that's when I chop the ball. Also if the ball is so low, that's when I block/push.

Another thing is to adjust your BH fingers, extend it fully like gripping a Jpen with no RPB. RPB grip like wang hoa's allows you to have free wrist movement which in my opinion you don't need when using LP. What you need is control and a little power for hitting. This is fine for me as I don't have a consistent RPB. I only use RPB when I'm 100% sure it will land on the table. :rolleyes:

On the TPB side my favorite stroke is the side sweep. I don't know about the others but for me it is the easiest stroke to lift the ball or push the ball as "straight pushing" the ball makes me end up mostly on the net.

As for references on the style, it's really hard to come by. Trial and error is the best way so far.

Anyway, thanks to you I'm back in penhold land again.:D I have a lot of love for SH, because I've never been able to play it! and I don't really know any other penholders except one of the coaches at my club (Traditional penholder). But I'm starting to think that what is most interesting about twiddling ph LP is the mind games, and the stability. catching good angles, creating awkward balls and ultimately forcing the error is the name of the game. It is much more interesting to me strategically, and wholly different from my usual massively offensive RPB heavy style. I don't usually force errors, I just create loops fast enough and spinny enough to easily win the point. LP penhold is extremely unique in it's defensive forcing errors and ability to attack. I've found now that I've got a good tacky rubber on that if the ball becomes to stale I can loop with the rpb and then block the attack for massive backspin, usually to their BH side. spin seems really essential, so without the rpb, i think ph lp really suffers. As long as you don't give LP spin, you can win with better speed/the option of adding spin the rally. at the moment, I only ever lose a point wherein they force the attack against backspin (with fh, this is as i've previously mentioned, the most difficult shot for me) and then counter it, or when they play no spin. If I can attack fh against backspin or loop backspin RPB (which i'm actually decent at, and this is easier with a tacky rubber), then I should have few troubles. still early days though.

James Livesey
03-28-2017, 09:40 PM
Holy smokes another fellow penhold twiddler. That is rare. i don't find many others to converse with.

So the LP swipe vs backspin in my experience doesn't actually do much for deception. Perhaps you can get your opponent to hesitate which is good but I do it simply because it's easier for me (and possibly others also?) to execute the attacking stroke vs that. So i would recommend doing that. For me the point winner isn't the power of the shot. No. You're probably playing close to the table so you're playing angles. It's the placement of the shot (which seems easy IMO) that wins the point.

Here's a video match I had with another Jpener.

Full video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVH5yl7wUWQ&

Swipe vs backspin vis (infinite looper)
http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=pVH5yl7wUWQ&p=n#/501;507

So maybe it's a left handed thing which is possible but I can't tell you how many times I've gotten this point vs people. Show obvious backspin serve to encourage them to push, twiddle, swipe to the open court or their weak spot. Most of the time, they just assume you will push back if they keep their return low. But with the LPs, that's really a non-factor.

Back to your original Q on dealing with backspin. Of course you can always twiddle back to inverted and loop with your FH if you like. But that might not be what you're looking for.

I suppose I will leave you with this. Look up Wang Qiu Yi. She plays the exact same style you do. Serves inverted FH, twiddles. Plays pretty much only LP (palio ck531a) on FH & inverted on BH. She is by far the best LP penhold attacker i've ever seen.

Here's a Youtube Playlist of Penhold LP/Twiddlers I've started. She, among others are featured here.

Since you can't get well written instruction, best thing you can do is watch & learn.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKqSWJv6VSgzmkFGAlD-TTKNYTt9-Ns6t

PS - Oh yeah. One last thing I forgot. i keep to the curled fingers approach simply because with extended fingers, I just cannot twiddle quickly. This is very cool. I was wondering what you guys thought about serving with the LP as a mixup. You seem to have that down. Hide the racket face you're serving with till last minute, then serve either massively spinny or barely any spin. My twiddling needs the most work, so atm I am playing trad ph when I serve, and LP ph when I receive, also using my rpb loop. This helps me develop my footwork on serving, as my 3rd ball attack needs desperate work. However, I do sometimes, serve LP, and most people pop this up or put it in the net, because they are expecting spin. All of your comments are massive help. You must also be somewhat frustrated that this way of playing TT is rather developed in China, but literature is hard to access. the PH coach at my club (who used to work for CNT) told me that there are 8 strokes for LP PH. I asked him what they were and he said, 'I don't remember, LP not good today at high level.' However, he did say that he thought pimples were highly underappreciated in the west, and that he almost always loses to pimples players in China. your reverse side serves are amazing as well. That is next level mixup.

genrel001
03-29-2017, 12:23 AM
I have a lot of love for SH, because I've never been able to play it! and I don't really know any other penholders except one of the coaches at my club (Traditional penholder). But I'm starting to think that what is most interesting about twiddling ph LP is the mind games, and the stability. catching good angles, creating awkward balls and ultimately forcing the error is the name of the game. It is much more interesting to me strategically, and wholly different from my usual massively offensive RPB heavy style. I don't usually force errors, I just create loops fast enough and spinny enough to easily win the point. LP penhold is extremely unique in it's defensive forcing errors and ability to attack. I've found now that I've got a good tacky rubber on that if the ball becomes to stale I can loop with the rpb and then block the attack for massive backspin, usually to their BH side. spin seems really essential, so without the rpb, i think ph lp really suffers. As long as you don't give LP spin, you can win with better speed/the option of adding spin the rally. at the moment, I only ever lose a point wherein they force the attack against backspin (with fh, this is as i've previously mentioned, the most difficult shot for me) and then counter it, or when they play no spin. If I can attack fh against backspin or loop backspin RPB (which i'm actually decent at, and this is easier with a tacky rubber), then I should have few troubles. still early days though.

Seems like you've thought things through. I like how you try make your opponent make errors by means of spin and deception. And, yes I definitely agree that RPB is really a game changer for the style. Which is why even though I don't have a consistent RPB I still try to sneak one from time to time and every time I score with it even with the simplest RPB block. It's like they never see it coming every time. But as for my philosophy of the style, I concentrate more on varying the tempo of the game. The best thing about LP FH is that you can hit a long ball then block to create a short ball which really gets the opponent out rhythm, also I like to see them dance (I call it the "Cha-cha"). Lol.

Placement>Speed>Spin.

I have this gut that this might be the future. Lol.

genrel001
03-29-2017, 12:47 AM
This is very cool. I was wondering what you guys thought about serving with the LP as a mixup. You seem to have that down. Hide the racket face you're serving with till last minute, then serve either massively spinny or barely any spin. My twiddling needs the most work, so atm I am playing trad ph when I serve, and LP ph when I receive, also using my rpb loop. This helps me develop my footwork on serving, as my 3rd ball attack needs desperate work. However, I do sometimes, serve LP, and most people pop this up or put it in the net, because they are expecting spin. All of your comments are massive help. You must also be somewhat frustrated that this way of playing TT is rather developed in China, but literature is hard to access. the PH coach at my club (who used to work for CNT) told me that there are 8 strokes for LP PH. I asked him what they were and he said, 'I don't remember, LP not good today at high level.' However, he did say that he thought pimples were highly underappreciated in the west, and that he almost always loses to pimples players in China. your reverse side serves are amazing as well. That is next level mixup.

I tried serving like that twiddling the bat at the last second to confuse the opponent. But I had problems;

1. You have to readjust the grip after twiddling which often leads to not hitting the shot at the perfect timing which leads to bad service.

2. In case the serve was successful you would still have to move yourself to position to receipt and at the same time re-twiddle the bat which often leads to dropping the bat or returning a bad shot.

Maybe suds79 has no problem with this but for me I'm bad at twiddling. As a solution I learned how to serve with RPB (inverted side). So far I have 4 service strokes on that side but the long chop is my go-to-serve. I also try to serve with my LP but only when I caught my opponent out of position then I hit him with a fast long-no-spin-serve on the weak side (usually BH side). Also short LP serve is a gem if you want to make a 3rd ball attack as more often than not opponents pops the ball up but I don't over do it so that they won't get used to it easily.

I never knew that this style originated in China. I understand the lack of references for this style, it's trial and error most of the time. You're even lucky you have a PH coach in your club. In our club (also City) I'm the only PH.

One more thing, this might be irrelevant to the topic. But after playing SH for a month I was expecting that returning to PH would need a little readjustment. But to my surprise, I can tell that I am way better than before. Shots are more consistent (my RPB still sucks though), more powerful and I feel like I have more control of the game. Weird.

James Livesey
03-29-2017, 02:20 PM
I wasn't thinking of twiddling during the swing that would be crazy hard. Just keeping the racket face hidden until contact. And if I do my normal swing for long pendulum, with a tiny bit of adjustment, even though there a very quick swing, the ball goes short using the LP side. They expect either huge spin or speed but when it goes very short, even if they realise that it's float, they still usually lunge and pop it up. What are your thoughts on chopping backspin? This seems like the best way to kill the spin and produce nasty wobble. I haven't really tried looping topspin for the same effect but looping with LP is extremely difficult as I have my muscle memory down for looping with inverted.

genrel001
03-30-2017, 03:32 AM
I see. I always serve long with LP. I'll try serving short next time and see if my opponent will pop it up. On the other hand, chopping backspin will pop the ball based on my experience. But I'm using Donic Akkadi L2 OX which is almost close to frictionless LP so chopping kind'a hard to do. Plus I'm using a fast carbon blade so there's almost no dwell time for the ball to be chopped that's why the ball pops up, I think. I'm thinking of buying a new LP OX but with more friction than mine and put it on a 2mm sponge (Is this legal?), maybe it will add more control to my shots. On looping topspin, it depends on the spin. If it's there's too much spin and I tried to counter or loop the ball, it over shoots to the other end of the table. But on a moderate topspin the ball dives long and dead. Pretty cool to see, especially when your opponent is trying to block it and the ball just bounces down to their side of the table.

I think I need to practice my RPB more. I tried playing with more RPB yesterday and my oppoenent tend to be more confused than usual. But I still made many errors with it.

I'm thinking of new set of equipment. I just bought last month from TT11 a sheet of Dr. Neubauer Viper Soft 1.0mm and Spinlord Marder II 1.8mm. I'm still waiting for it to arrive, the shipping took longer than the usual (I hope it's not lost). I am thinking if I should stick it to my Dr. Neubauer Firewall+ or order the Galaxy 989 Japanese revolver blade.

Firewall+

Pros:
1. Light
2. Deceptive
3. Excellent control and touch

Con:
1. Lacks mid speed
2. pretty thick handle for PH
3. It's very fragile and already have some dents and small cracks

Galaxy 989

Pros:
1. It looks effing cool!!:cool:
2. Faster and more linear than Firewall+

Cons:
1. I haven't tried this yet

What do you think James?

suds79
03-30-2017, 04:25 AM
What are your thoughts on chopping backspin? This seems like the best way to kill the spin and produce nasty wobble.

I use it as a rare change up.

I generally believe that you should pretty much swipe or attack all backspin balls with LPs but that can be dangerous if the opponent starts to expect this and they've hit with you enough to adjust to the off speed nature of the attack. Given this style only thrives on keeping them off balance, I'm okay with this shot as a rare mixup to kill the spin.

Here's the tricky part. It's hard to execute consistently IMO. Super easy to pop up. Just takes a lot of practice.

Earlier in this thread I saw a remark about having to readjust the paddle after the twiddle. I think this is common when you're first getting the hang of it. It's for that reason I kinda like the curled fingers approach. As you twiddle, you kind curls your fingers tighter after twiddling and you can kinda pull the paddle up tight against your hand if it slides down a little on your twiddle. After a while, you do it naturally without even noticing.

Or... You can practice twiddling for a while with the face of your blade pointing up. If the blade slips at all, it's basically falling into your hand nice & tight.

Good news. I was filming myself (yuck but I think will be important) for the TT chit chat thread to have Next Level and others help me critique my inverted stoke after spending so much time on short pips. Check out that video in that thread. Or i guess I could post it here also if it's wanted. I basically go through all the strokes I know with this style. Anyways, the point I found out was that you can twiddle with the fingers extended method!!! :) You just have to hold the blade further down on the neck than you normally would so that your fingers on the face of the blade aren't so much towards the middle of the face. Rather, they're more on the end and less in the way. I might have to experiment to see if I can get my twiddle speed up with this grip. If so, I might adopt it.

Honestly the key to learning a fast twiddle is simple practice. Not while you're playing. No. I'm talking about when you're chilling at home watching a TV program. Just have your paddle in your hand twiddling while you watch your favorite shows. I promise you your twiddle will be lighting fast in no time.

genrel001
03-30-2017, 06:45 AM
A video would be nice. One way to keep this thread going and additional reference is always good. Maybe someday I'll post mine too (when I'm confident enough :rolleyes:).

I'll try twiddling again some time, maybe after I've improved my RPB.

BTW what are your takes on a Japanese PH revolver style like Galaxy 989, Butterfly Hawdraw Revolver..etc. Jpens with cork on both sides made for twiddling. I haven't tried one yet but it seems like there's more balance to the blade as compared to a Cpen. Probably because of the long and heavier handle. Also they look epic. I'm looking forward to purchase one.

suds79
03-30-2017, 03:45 PM
If I was going to go that route, I'd definitely try the Nittaku Sou.

IMO there isn't a sexier blade around. You can pick it up from TableTennis11.com
http://www.tabletennis11.com/other_eng/nittaku-sou-mf-r-pen

Plus Nittaku makes excellent blades. But that being said, for some reason I've always hit with more power with Jpens & less spin compared to Cpens. I think it's a me thing. So I probably wouldn't go that route as I'm trying to up my spin.

I don't necessarily always curl my forefinger around the neck anyways.

OldschoolPenholder
03-30-2017, 06:00 PM
This was filmed months ago when i tried briefly to test the weight of the SP on the back with my inverted on the front after years of playing oldschool PH single-sided. Wasn't sure if my wrist could handle the extra weight and FTR, it could not.

Only the 2nd time i twiddled, i was sitting waiting for next on a table and tried twiddling. Not as smooth and fast as suds during a game though!


https://vimeo.com/188940555

suds79
03-30-2017, 06:23 PM
Had a hit with my co-worder, who also attends club every now & then, over lunch.

Was hitting just okay. Had a moment where I felt unsatisified with my inverted FH and thought "why am I banging my head against the wall trying to spin everything." So took the next couple of hits and just hit more normal (basically my SP stoke) and hit a pinch better. Hmm.

Anyways, being that I was kinda stuck there with that setup, I decided to practice something I've done before but never for a real extended period and that's to play the twiddle game but play probably 80% of it with LPs on my FH (still a very short pip stroke) and inverted on my BH. Man you talk about everything coming alive. He really couldn't handle it.

Basically vs any serve it doesn't matter what's on the ball (except dead. have to watch out for that one). It's just so easy to counter through it and place the ball to whatever spot you choose. Now it's not fast mind you but painting corners? You bet.

Of course you always have the rare change up for when the ball does come to your BH and they're use to you playing the slow LPs, you have that inverted RPB. The over the table loop is a nice surprise if they start to serve you dead & short... If you play enough LPs and the opponent gets tired of having his spiny serves brought back to them trust me it'll happen.

Anyways, I'll see how it goes into club. Presumably the same setup. I can still hit RPB topspin with short pips just fine but granted it's not quite as good as inverted.

Seems as though there's always trade offs. No 1 perfect thing.

Inverted: better serves. Better RPB
SP: better control. Better placement. More closely resembling the technique you'd use to attack with LPs. So there's a consistency element you get with your muscle memory in not having to drastically change.

genrel001
03-31-2017, 12:58 AM
I've seen that SOU from TT11 it's really great but the price is a little on the expensive side, also I am having issues with TT11 as of the moment. It's been almost a month and my order hasn't arrived yet. I'm starting to get anxious about it. What about the Galaxy J-1? A 1-ply Ayous wood, people say it's very controlled at low speed but unpredictable at high speed. Maybe adding that unpredictability when hitting with LP will make more deceptions. hmmm...

That my friend is my game. 80-90% LP 10-20% RPB. No twiddle. When my opponent got tired with serving high spin serves, in my case, they tend to serve me a long dead ball (they don't serve short dead balls to me anymore as I could just flick the ball with my RPB). I still haven't figure out how to return that properly in my LP FH side. All I can do is block it but goes a little high, enough for my opponent to counter-drive. Chop it and it will pop. One solution that I did is block it to their BH side to at least reduce the chance of powerful drives and hope to counter with my RPB or block with LP and regain the control of the game. But easier said than done, at least to me.

P.S.

I can't do RPB with SP always ends up to the net.

tropical
03-31-2017, 02:15 AM
I can't do RPB with SP always ends up to the net.

RTP? What is that?

genrel001
03-31-2017, 02:50 AM
RTP? What is that?

I'm sorry. What RTP?

tropical
03-31-2017, 03:00 AM
RPB sorry ...

genrel001
03-31-2017, 07:45 AM
Reverse Penhold Backhand.

tropical
03-31-2017, 05:55 PM
I see. RPB is tough to master. I have seen an old folk (used to be 2100 player) tried to learn this technique for almost 3 years without being able to do it in real game. On the other hand a much younger guy with same amount of time was able to execute it anytime he likes. But this young guy has professional training, though.

genrel001
04-01-2017, 04:42 AM
I don't know but as I've observed RPB are easily learned by younger players or player who hasn't accustomed yet in playing TPB. Older players who already have TPB implanted in their muscle memory find it hard to convert or even adapt to RPB.

suds79
04-01-2017, 02:22 PM
My brother, who is 9 years older than me, tried it once and said he hurt his elbow. So he's never tried since.

I learned it probably when I was about 32 or so. So that's not exactly young for learning something new. :) So I wouldn't let age get in the way.

I think it's just like anything when learning a stroke. After you've done the research on the technique, start the muscle memory by just blocking with it vs topspin against your training partner or robot. Once you have that down, then you slowly step slightly away from the table and then go from blocking to slight counter driving. Then on & on until you're looping.

This might be a tired comparison but it really does for me feel like the same thing. If you can throw a frisbee backhanded, you can hit one heck of a spiny RPB.

tropical
04-01-2017, 04:21 PM
The young guy (compared to me) I mentioned he was about 30's as well. He spent countless hours to learn the technique, at least 50X more than the old 2100 and 65 y/o player. Yes, dedication is much needed here and more important than age. But when we are old we are not trying as hard as we used to.

James Livesey
04-12-2017, 06:04 PM
I learned it faster than fh. I used to play ultimate frisbee a lot so rpb is almost identical to a BH throw. I've been experimenting a lot with rpb serves. Right foot forward, from centre right. You can do backspin with sidespin to right or left or straight, and then you can outright rpb loop it for an ultra fast serve. I also find it quite easy to swipe under the ball feinting the back-sidespin and then quickly coming up for the rpb topspin serve. What are your reverse side service techniques. Ultimately, I've only seen Xu xin and Wang hao do reverse side serves at the pro level, but they do it strictly as a mix-up for their 'hook' serve, a service I desperately need to master.

OldschoolPenholder
04-12-2017, 06:13 PM
When and if i ever play the modern PH game with 2 inverted, i probably would only do a RPB loop. Anything else i would use a TPB.

Haven't even thought of serves yet LOL

James Livesey
04-12-2017, 06:15 PM
Well I think I will definitely stick to ox because I almost exclusively use my rpb as my offensive option. I generally slow the ball then kill the ball or spin the ball so I can send a nasty chop back. What are the specs on the galaxy? Plies, thickness, weight, softness, flex. I'm loving my off- all ayous five ply. It got some flex so excellent for rpb but is stiff enough for decent blocking. I think it's generally a good idea to keep the entire setup under 170 grand for rpb. Anything greater gives me strain issues. Hence, with a regular setup, I use an 80g blade. With a super light ox rubber, you can definitely afford 85-90 grams + heavy rubber + ox.

genrel001
04-22-2017, 02:22 AM
I just added 2.0mm 729 HRS sponge underneath my Viper Soft, I don't know if it's over 4mm though, haven't measured it. I replaced the factory sponge because the topsheet is peeling off already just after 1 week of playing and air bubbles starts to appear everywhere. Also I found out that Dr. N. uses glue sheet to glue the topsheet to the sponge instead of the usual contact/rubber cement commonly used in Chinese pips. Removing the topsheet is also a hell of challenge because the glue from the glue sheet sticks to the topsheet rather than the sponge.

Anyway, now my set is faster on passive plays and better control. It also provided that extra zip when flat hitting. It's pretty much what I needed since I'm using an ALL blade. Also my loops have more spin than usual, make my opponents confuse during rallies. It's pretty cool.

suds79
04-26-2017, 01:19 PM
Holy thread revival batman! :)

Because I love this style and I think there are a few others out there who do to, I thought "how can we have this thread talking LP penhold technique and not have Jian Jiang Huang, or more accurately 黄建疆, in it? To me he is the gold standard for LP penhold play and the one I would like to most closely emulate. I just like his brand of play.

He plays short pips/Long pips. Although if you're an inverted/long pips person you could still play exactly the same way.

Video 1:
I believe this is the first video in this series. I know the total time is about a hour long but this is broken up. This video clip is 7 mins long.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpX3iFRdY3Y

This video starts out with a lot of talking and if you're like me and can't understand it, go ahead and skip to the first point at 3:45.

That's actually a nice one to point out. I can't tell you how many times I've played this point. Show heavy backspin, do not try to hide your serve. The goal is to encourage (or force if it's spiny & low) them to push. Twiddle to your long pips and swipe attack to wherever the open court is. The result is a weird topspin ball that can catch people for surprise.

That's all well in good but sooner or later your opponents start to expect that topspin ball & smoke it. Here's where it's nice to have this shot he does in that point at 3:45. He pushes that backspin ball with his LPs!! I can't tell you how hard this is to do without popping it up high. Note is opponent pops up the ball where he's waiting with the SP attack. If people think they can push that ball because they see you push, they're sorely mistaken. The ball you're sending to them is deadish. It's a nice change-up and good to have in your bag of tricks.

If people are feeling Jian's teachings, I might post more in here.

genrel001
05-02-2017, 01:53 AM
I'm back!!! I've been away for a week due to work travels. Man, it's good to be back. I've only just played table tennis yesterday right after I came back from the trip, and I'm pumped up once again.

While I'm away I wrote down some strategy note (because the seminar is boring as hell). Feel free to comment on it!

Tactics against Loopers

Style: LP-Hitter RPB-Counter-driver (no twiddle)
FH: LP
BH: INV

Service:
1. Serve long chop with INV or LP rubber (go-to-serve), most preferably to the BH side of opponent
2. Do occasional fast topspin serve (one per set)
3. Do long flat LP serve (one per set)

* Always serve to kill (prioritize 3rd ball attack)
* Avoid service that will promote rallies (avoid rallies at all cost)

Return:
1. Short Chop to BH side (opponent's service)- return with LP short lift or RPB flick to opponent's weak side.
2. Long Chop to BH side (opponent's service)- return with LP short block to BH side or LP long push (if opponent is out of position)
3. Short Chop to FH side (opponent's service)- return with LP short lift or LP hit/push (depends on the height of he serve)
4. Long Chop to FH side (opponent's service)- return with LP HIT! or LP long push to opponent's weak side. If caught off-guard, do LP short block to BH side.
5. Side Spin (opponent's service)- return with LP short push, prepare to HIT! based on the direction of the side spin.
6. Topspin/Fast ball- return with LP short push or block or if height is forgivable HIT with LP.

*Returns should be in preparation for 4th ball attack
*Return with HIT! attack whenever possible

Rallies:
1. Avoid rallies at all cost.
2. When caught on rally, do counter-drive (topspin) and flat HIT! strokes alternately.
3. When rally was initiated in the RPB side, block with LP (TPB) then surprise with RPB. or vice versa.


**HIT can either be swipe attack or flat down hit attack.

My ideas where just based on my encounter with loopers. I hope this may add some info to the style. :D

BTW. I replaced my Balsa blade with a carbon-hinoki blade. I find the my old balsa lacking some power on passive shots but uncontrollable on aggressive hits. I like the linearity of the carbon-hinoki but it lacks the feel of an allwood blade. I'm looking to buy a new one. I'm thinking of DHS Dipper 9 and Yasaka Silver 9. I think 9 ply blades has the same power as carbon blades but with better feel.

genrel001
05-02-2017, 02:04 AM
He pushes that backspin ball with his LPs!! I can't tell you how hard this is to do without popping it up high. Note is opponent pops up the ball where he's waiting with the SP attack. If people think they can push that ball because they see you push, they're sorely mistaken. The ball you're sending to them is deadish. It's a nice change-up and good to have in your bag of tricks.

If people are feeling Jian's teachings, I might post more in here.

Pushing backspins with LP is not easy but with right angle and timing it's not that hard also. In my experience, the key is to punch the ball when pushing long and to lift the ball if going for short balls.

My clubmates also told me that they usually get confused with my pushes and also with my dummy loops. But they're getting used to my style now. My rival in our club is a SP BH player, I hate his SP. He's a chopper/blocker style. I have to adjust my game and be patient when playing with him.

genrel001
05-02-2017, 05:21 AM
BTW this is the photo of my Dr. Neubauer Viper Soft after removing it from its sponge

12971

suds79
05-02-2017, 04:49 PM
Oh that looks like that didn't go well. yeah those thin OX LP sheets will do that.

That's why when I play OX, I really prefer Xiying 979. That base sheet is so thick, I've glued it on my bat with rubber cement. No joke. Just one layer on the blade, nothing on the rubber & stick it on. It won't shrivel up.

That being said, if you like to occasionally attack with LPs, I prefer sponged LPs by a mile.

OldschoolPenholder
05-02-2017, 07:39 PM
LOL -- i thought it was me with the LP OX shriveling up

genrel001
05-03-2017, 12:59 AM
Yeah. I soaked it in boiling water to remove the glue then straighten up the top sheet and stick it on top of 2.0mm soft chinese sponge. The control is better and the ball is faster. I only used water based glue to stick the top sheet to the sponge, I think using rubber/contact cement will melt the thin base sheet of my top sheet.

After changing blade from my ALL speed balsa to an OFF carbon blade, I can't return the ball short anymore which I find hard to set up for 4th ball attack. But, the upside is that my hits are way "deadlier" than before. I just need to rethink my strategy in order to set up a 4th ball attack.

James Livesey
05-03-2017, 01:50 PM
I just added 2.0mm 729 HRS sponge underneath my Viper Soft, I don't know if it's over 4mm though, haven't measured it. I replaced the factory sponge because the topsheet is peeling off already just after 1 week of playing and air bubbles starts to appear everywhere. Also I found out that Dr. N. uses glue sheet to glue the topsheet to the sponge instead of the usual contact/rubber cement commonly used in Chinese pips. Removing the topsheet is also a hell of challenge because the glue from the glue sheet sticks to the topsheet rather than the sponge.

Anyway, now my set is faster on passive plays and better control. It also provided that extra zip when flat hitting. It's pretty much what I needed since I'm using an ALL blade. Also my loops have more spin than usual, make my opponents confuse during rallies. It's pretty cool.

Given that ox rubbers are 2.00 max, and your sponge is 2.0, i don't see how you could be over.

James Livesey
05-03-2017, 01:56 PM
In other news, I'm back to my rpb loop style now i have the rubbers. I think I like both styles equally, but generally have better results with the LP. The only real problem I have with them, is that nobody wants to play me, and training is tricky :(. It's going to be amazing for next season though, when they have to play me.

genrel001
05-03-2017, 03:15 PM
Robopong is a good training partner, at least for me. Doing a FH drill with a clubmate is really annoying, after 3-4 hits my partner will defenitely hit the net. We can't even make 10 consecutive hits.

As for training approach, I really believe random is the way to go. I've seen players who are so good at drills but sucks at the real game. I play random mode with robopong sometimes. But most of the time I play several sets with a clubmate. We even have this race to 11 game. It's my substitute for jogging to develop my stamina.

This LP style suites me well, I can't play inverted in my FH it always go over the table. Idk, somehow I just can't seem to close my racket when playing inverted.

Anyway, goodluck to us and good night for now.

Tadeiro
05-13-2017, 09:11 AM
Nice watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9MuUJkF4P4&t=276s