Difference between rubbers

Raylazyfo · May 22, 2017

I've heard some people say the black/red top sheet version of certain rubbers is better. Is it true that the same rubber can have different qualities based on what colour the top sheet is?

yoass · May 22, 2017

Yes, some have that certainly. I liked the black, blue-sponged Friendship 729 Super FX, but detested the red, orange-sponged.

Archosaurus · May 22, 2017

@yoass

Those are entirely different rubbers.

From what I know, this used to be a problem having to do with QC. Apparently it's not anymore.

Tony's Table Tennis · May 22, 2017

Due to black dye, the black topsheet are more grippy and tend to have more spin.
This is comparing the exact same rubber (and sponge), but only differences is the topsheet

It is because of this, most of your pros tend to have black on the FH

Archosaurus · May 22, 2017

Tony's Table Tennis said:
Due to black dye, the black topsheet are more grippy and tend to have more spin.
This is comparing the exact same rubber (and sponge), but only differences is the topsheet

It is because of this, most of your pros tend to have black on the FH

Is this *really* true? I've heard it used to be true, but I'm not so sure now. I thought it was too, but people who know better seem to think it's not true.

Ma Lin used red on FH last time I checked. I think the black on forehand is because there's simply no red topsheet blue sponge, or at least I've never heard of one.

Tony's Table Tennis · May 22, 2017

Archosaurus said:
Is this *really* true? I've heard it used to be true, but I'm not so sure now. I thought it was too, but people who know better seem to think it's not true.

Ma Lin used red on FH last time I checked. I think the black on forehand is because there's simply no red topsheet blue sponge, or at least I've never heard of one.

True.
I personally feel it too when doing a spin test.
Most pros I know say so too
The last time I saw Ma Lin use Red on his FH was when he was using Globe 999 in the days of speed glue

Archosaurus · May 22, 2017

Well, I'll keep in mind what you've said about it. Just remember that it could simply be placebo. Even if everyone says it, although unlikely.

Tony's Table Tennis · May 22, 2017

Archosaurus said:
Well, I'll keep in mind what you've said about it. Just remember that it could simply be placebo. Even if everyone says it, although unlikely.

Okay
I won't say that manufactures say so too, since you won't believe that too lol

Jabugo · May 22, 2017

Archosaurus said:
Is this *really* true? I've heard it used to be true, but I'm not so sure now. I thought it was too, but people who know better seem to think it's not true.

Ma Lin used red on FH last time I checked. I think the black on forehand is because there's simply no red topsheet blue sponge, or at least I've never heard of one.

From my experience with many samples of Hurricane 3 (Provincial/National), it is true that Black grips more easily than Red. The tack is also greater with Black. I don't know what the real reasons are for this, but I don't see the same variation between color for MX-P or Tenergy.

Archosaurus · May 22, 2017

Tony's Table Tennis said:
Okay
I won't say that manufactures say so too, since you won't believe that too lol

Oh, really? I've never heard of that. Is it really consensus that black sheet is tackier/spinnier/faster or whatnot?

ttmonster · May 22, 2017

I think I have read Carl saying that this thing kind of feeds itself , because everybody wants Black Hurricanes on their forehand, the red once remain on the shelves longer and that also causes it to loose the grippiness etc ..

Tony's Table Tennis · May 22, 2017

ttmonster said:
I think I have read Carl saying that this thing kind of feeds itself , because everybody wants Black Hurricanes on their forehand, the red once remain on the shelves longer and that also causes it to loose the grippiness etc ..

I personally tested from my stock (assembly bats for customers), rubbers where black are indeed grippier than the red counterpart. I would say its easier to check with the sponge is harder as softer sponge catapult too much
surprised not much people so far feel this...

Archosaurus · May 22, 2017

Tony, I'm not sure if most table tennis players are high level enough to really tell the difference.

UpSideDownCarl · May 23, 2017

Funny. What companies can't figure out how to make the red and black topsheets respond the same? How good are the scientists on their R&D team?

Not sure I'd want to buy a rubber from company that can't sort that out. The formula should be fairly easy.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

Archosaurus · May 23, 2017

UpSideDownCarl said:
Funny. What companies can't figure out how to make the red and black topsheets respond the same? How good are the scientists on their R&D team?

Not sure I'd want to buy a rubber from company that can't sort that out. The formula should be fairly easy.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

From what I've seen, it's not so much a case of "Make the product, then apply dye" as much as applying the dye as the product is being made. So I can understand why the color and characteristics might not be completely separate. The dye is part of the process of chemical reactions.

Dyes are always made of something, like petroleum for example, to my knowledge we don't have some kind of "color materials" that allow us to subtract and add wave-lengths as we wish.

Why the chemists at rubber production teams haven't figured out how to produce dyes that aren't radically different from each other in performance impact, I don't know.

ttmonster · May 23, 2017

this is what Larry Hodges had to say about this back in 2014 .. .

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1949

Jaffar Lone · May 23, 2017

What i have noticed is that the same rubber in red color tends to have bit more pace and a bit more catapult as compared with the same rubber of the black color. Infact one of my former coaches is also of the same opinion. Both him and i use red color for the forehand sponge and black color for the backhand sponge.

I am not sure about DHS rubbers or 729, however with the Hexer Duro i found out that the black sheet responded somewhat differently as compared with the Red sheet. Black was absorbing the incoming spin that much better. However when it came to opening loops the red was noticeably better in terms of spin.

Raylazyfo said:
I've heard some people say the black/red top sheet version of certain rubbers is better. Is it true that the same rubber can have different qualities based on what colour the top sheet is?

Airoc · May 23, 2017

ttmonster said:
this is what Larry Hodges had to say about this back in 2014 .. .

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1949

True. There was a reason for different behaviour (red faster, black spinnier), but there is no reason anymore. Of course for rubbers produced to an old recipe (729, Coppa, Sriver, the likes ...) this might still be the case, on anything modern it shouldn´t.

However, with two sheets of the same rubber in 2.0 mm you could have a red one that´s 1.89 and a black one that´s 2.02 - and you´d feel a difference. And sometimes even whole series can be crap in one colour and good in the other, so there are plenty reasons why the myth lives on.

6Finger · May 23, 2017

What I can say for sure as graphics technician is that red pigment was most problematic throughout whole human history. I would guess that there are same problems with rubber manufacturing. With lesser certainty I can say that with some model's of rubber we do get red sheets of rubbers noticeably softer than black, for example Tibhar evolution MX-P rubbers. This is not only my personal opinion but from much better players than me as well.. I would guess not many people notice this because they don't play with hard enough rubbers and most do prefer softer rubber on one side, usually backhand. Second example where red sheet is much softer and so much that it actually curls up (reverse dome) and it is a problem to reglue it would be Xiom Vega Pro.
My experiences are with 2.0 and max thickness rubbers, mostly max, I dont know if it applies to thinner sponge rubbers.

Edit: all other things being equal, there is less of a contrast between the ball and red rubber sheet so it's harder to see contact on services.

yoass · May 23, 2017

ttmonster said:
this is what Larry Hodges had to say about this back in 2014 .. .

http://www.tabletenniscoaching.com/node/1949

That is a very interesting story. Yet somehow I think John Hilton should have figured in it prominently, "who sensationally won the singles event at the Table Tennis European Championships in 1980 at odds of over 1,000-1. His use of a revolutionary combination bat, with different rubbers on either side, completely bamboozled his opponents, coupled with his defensive play, and led to one of sport's greatest upsets." (quoting <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hilton_(table_tennis)> here).

I've seen him play back then, and there's stuff on Youtube that shows how hideously graceful and powerful players like Jacques Secretin got turned into bumbling fools at the table; e.g.

.

There's a brief recap of that 1980 upset, and it's painful to watch:

As good a reason as any in any case.

Difference between rubbers

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