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SFF_lib
06-14-2017, 09:56 PM
I played the Nittaku Premium ball once.

All i could say was wow. It plays even better than some 40mm balls. I heard some people say the Premium ball retains the similar speed and spin of the old 40mm balls. Is it correct? If it's true then the Premium ball sets a high bar above all other manufacturers. So the question is use or not. If WTTC use butterfly, and Olympic uses Nitakku Premium, the game is faster in Olympic which is unfair and inconsistent.

Is there any rule around this?



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Baal
06-14-2017, 10:16 PM
It's a great ball for sure. The new DHS D40+ is quite similar at 1/3 of the price. This WTTC used the Nittaku.

Suga D
06-15-2017, 01:23 AM
I can verify this. Baal has given me a pack of the NP 40+ (and a DHS D40+).
In a blindfolded test i hardly would be able to distinguish one from the other.
Both feel real nice.
Thanks again, Baal. Very much appreciated.
:)

SFF_lib
06-15-2017, 02:22 AM
It's a great ball for sure. The new DHS D40+ is quite similar at 1/3 of the price. This WTTC used the Nittaku.


I can verify this. Baal has given me a pack of the NP 40+ (and a DHS D40+).
In a blindfolded test i hardly would be able to distinguish one from the other.
Both feel real nice.
Thanks again, Baal. Very much appreciated.
:)

Thanks both. Good to know that.

Does that mean in future events only the fastest 40+ balls will be used to keep consistency?



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yourock
06-15-2017, 02:38 AM
For sure, old cellulose acetate balls would die out gradually due to extremely low bounce and irregular bounce as well as high breakage rate. I notice there are some ABS balls coming into the market, but mostly without ITTF approval. These are approved include TIBHAR, TSP CP, DF, DHS, STIGA. ( if check ball approval list, easy to figure out). I guess more brands are still wait and see how it goes. Quality improvement is one thing, we should remember profit is the major concern for brands. If margin for ABS ball is low and everyone is selling ABS ball, they wouldn't be incentive enough to sell it with their brands. They have different angle from a player's.

yuri.saldon
06-15-2017, 04:04 AM
I can distingue dhs d40+ and nittaku premium. For me both spins different.

But they are the close poly ball with each other

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MikeWarrior
06-15-2017, 07:33 AM
I played the Nittaku Premium ball once.

All i could say was wow. It plays even better than some 40mm balls. I heard some people say the Premium ball retains the similar speed and spin of the old 40mm balls. Is it correct? If it's true then the Premium ball sets a high bar above all other manufacturers. So the question is use or not. If WTTC use butterfly, and Olympic uses Nitakku Premium, the game is faster in Olympic which is unfair and inconsistent.

Is there any rule around this?

I have played with Nittaku Premium balls since last year, it's the most durable plastic ball on the market, However, it is not as fast as the previous 40mm balls nor is the spin better. Like all plastic balls, the balls are slightly slower with a slight reduction in spin.

With my old rubber M2 and Stiga, the ball penetrates the sponge better than most plastic balls because of its hardness. I just started using Rasanter and find smaller differences compared to the old rubber with the plastic balls. Perhaps that is because of the thinner top sheet and thicker sponge.

I agree with you on the differences (butterfly and Premium) perhaps someday there will be a more unified plastic ball rather than a bunch of different versions which play differently.

yoass
06-15-2017, 08:30 AM
I can verify this. Baal has given me a pack of the NP 40+ (and a DHS D40+).
In a blindfolded test i hardly would be able to distinguish one from the other.
Both feel real nice.
Thanks again, Baal. Very much appreciated.
:)

I got me a box of the DHS balls, with Ding Ning on it — https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Ix2yQFXXXXbhXXXXq6xXFXXXp/10-font-b-Balls-b-font-Newest-font-b-DHS-b-font-3-Star-Dingning-D40.jpg -- and I think these are what this is about, right? They are great. I haven't encountered the Nittaku Premium anywhere, so I can't compare, but these DHS balls are the best I've used so far.

SFF_lib
06-15-2017, 09:09 AM
I got me a box of the DHS balls, with Ding Ning on it — https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Ix2yQFXXXXbhXXXXq6xXFXXXp/10-font-b-Balls-b-font-Newest-font-b-DHS-b-font-3-Star-Dingning-D40.jpg -- and I think these are what this is about, right? They are great. I haven't encountered the Nittaku Premium anywhere, so I can't compare, but these DHS balls are the best I've used so far.
I might try to order some.

yourock
06-15-2017, 09:44 AM
Weird thread. Under Nittaku ball title, everyone is talking about DHS. Suddenly hatred against DHS is gone.

parkash.imangry
06-15-2017, 10:56 AM
I didn't like the Ding Ning boxed DHS balls...so much less spin compare to more round, more spinny, more stable Xushaofas.

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PolishTT17
06-15-2017, 11:05 AM
I didn't like the Ding Ning boxed DHS balls...so much less spin compare to more round, more spinny, more stable Xushaofas.

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O Please no Xushaofa... These balls are so bad. I tried them once and bought a package with 6 balls and all of them were eggs. Was my quickest balltest ever :D But back to topic. For me the NP-Ball is the best! But 2 weeks ago I tried the new CP40+ from TSP. I can really recommend the ball. Try them out, for me it is the cheaper NP

yourock
06-15-2017, 11:13 AM
Hey. PolishTT, depends on if it's one star ball or ITTF approved ones from XUSHAOFA. Xushaofa 3 star is my favorite.

PolishTT17
06-15-2017, 11:19 AM
It was the three star ball ITTF approved. Was really disappointed from the quality. But sure it was maybe bad luck. But not one playable ball in a charge of six balls is really bad...

Baal
06-15-2017, 12:12 PM
Thanks both. Good to know that.

Does that mean in future events only the fastest 40+ balls will be used to keep consistency?



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A couple of details. Nittaku and D40+ are made of very similar material (versions of acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, or ABS), but not identical because they are a slightly different color. The D40+ is just a tad bit heavier than the Nittaku (2.73 gram vs. 2.69 grams) and has a slightly higher pitched sound. That means the Nittaku is ever so slightly faster than the D40+. So if you really concentrate and switch from one ball to the other randomly you can over time teach yourself to determine the difference between them, but even though they are not precisely identical, it is very easy to switch from one to the other. Those are the two balls I use the most, and I find that switching to anything else now requires some adjustment that takes quite awhile. I have always liked seamless balls, but I like these much more. You tend to like what you are used to, but I liked the Nittaku more the first time I tried it.

Lot of other companies are going to be selling re-branded versions of the D40+ in the future, so probably these will become the dominant balls. I think the CP40+ from TSP is one of those.

Seamless has never been adapted in any pro tournaments that I know of. I never had a roundness issue with them but I have not bought any recently (I bought a bunch when they first came out) and the quality control may have changed. Also, some people say that if they got exposed to heat during shipping that can make them go out of round (I am skeptical of that explanation since I kept a bunch in the trunk of my car in Houston Texas in the summer and it did not make them go out of round). The Yinhe seamless I occasionally see here are quite good.

I hope and suspect that the cellulose acetate balls will disappear. They offer no advantages at all, since they are not round, bounce poorly, are fragile, and are expensive. I don't have any inside information on this, though.

I am curious what Butterfly will do. Will they also sell a rebranded D40+? Before they come out with their G40+, the Butterfly plastic ball was a re-branded cellulose acetate ball, but probably the one made by Double Fish. As with all cellulose acetate balls, it is terrible. I mention Butterfly because sometimes their balls have been used in major events. I very much dislike the G40+ personally and I am glad that it has not really caught on anywhere. I don't like the surface texture (too smooth) and the thing has less arc in the air and the sound is ridiculous. Their practice ball version (Easy Ball) is actually better than their competition ball. Will they in time give up on their German-made balls?

yourock
06-15-2017, 12:26 PM
Seamless ball looks like abandoned child that ITTF never intended or would never use in international events for the time being no matter this child is a good boy or not. Sigh. Not my concern anyway. It's not like I would have chance to compete in pro events. I did have impression that Joola's seamless ball was used at recent Men Team Final of German League. But seems they are not aggressively pushing their ball. No one on this forum bother to mention Joola seamless ball. Mainly Nittaku, Xushaofa, DHS..

yourock
06-15-2017, 12:30 PM
One question occurred to me, will Nittaku ball finally gets cheaper due to price pressure from DHS? That would be good for us players...

Suga D
06-15-2017, 01:07 PM
One question occurred to me, will Nittaku ball finally gets cheaper due to price pressure from DHS? That would be good for us players...

I really hope so too.
:)

yuri.saldon
06-15-2017, 01:10 PM
I've never played with a perfect round xushaofa. The Yinhe (rebranded xushaofa I think) otherwise is the best seamless I ever played.

But d40+ is a little better than seamless and nittaku still the best ball IMO. And I think this will be until the 40+ has been played.

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Baal
06-15-2017, 01:40 PM
If I play with a box of NP40+ for a week or two, that is my favorite ball. If I then grab some D40+ and play with them for a couple of weeks, that becomes my favorite ball! They are really similar, and you just have to get used to the 40 mg difference in weight which is actually noticeable, but not problematic. (The seamless at a point at least were heavier still and seem to float more in the air for some reason, and I suspect it is because they have a slightly larger diameter, but I have not weighed any that were manufacutered recently). By the way, the D40+ stays good longer, there is no question about that. It is definitely more durable. Now, if I go to a website to buy them there is simply no question anymore. The D40+ is my favorite ball because they are 1/3 the price.

By the way, both of them (NP40+ and D40+) are covered with tons of powder when they are new, though. That is annoying.

yoass
06-15-2017, 01:46 PM
If I play with a box of NP40+ for a week or two, that is my favorite ball. If I then grab some D40+ and play with them for a couple of weeks, that becomes my favorite ball! They are close enough, and you just have to get used to the 40 mg difference in weight. By the way, the D40+ stays good longer, there is no question about that. It is definitely more durable. Now, if I go to a website to buy them there is simply no question anymore. The D40+ is my favorite ball because they are 1/3 the price.

Sir Baal, you're making a compelling argument there.


By the way, both of them are covered with tons of powder when they are new, though. That is annoying.

Lots of balls have this, they're bathing in dust. One should probably rinse them before use, but then again, I usually consider that only after finding my rubbers looking dull and dusty suddenly after a few hits with a new ball. Which is too late.

yuri.saldon
06-15-2017, 02:52 PM
If I play with a box of NP40+ for a week or two, that is my favorite ball. If I then grab some D40+ and play with them for a couple of weeks, that becomes my favorite ball! They are really similar, and you just have to get used to the 40 mg difference in weight which is actually noticeable, but not problematic. (The seamless at a point at least were heavier still and seem to float more in the air for some reason, and I suspect it is because they have a slightly larger diameter, but I have not weighed any that were manufacutered recently). By the way, the D40+ stays good longer, there is no question about that. It is definitely more durable. Now, if I go to a website to buy them there is simply no question anymore. The D40+ is my favorite ball because they are 1/3 the price.

By the way, both of them (NP40+ and D40+) are covered with tons of powder when they are new, though. That is annoying.
That's why I only bought d40+

The powder problem is easy to resolve. Drop some water than dry it.

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Suga D
06-15-2017, 03:11 PM
By the way, both of them (NP40+ and D40+) are covered with tons of powder when they are new, though. That is annoying.




Lots of balls have this, they're bathing in dust. One should probably rinse them before use, but then again, I usually consider that only after finding my rubbers looking dull and dusty suddenly after a few hits with a new ball. Which is too late.


That's why I only bought d40+

The powder problem is easy to resolve. Drop some water than dry it.

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The only downside is that because of this dust the balls often get stuck in the robot.
But maybe I should really give them a bath and a scrub first.
Gotta order some new ones for our club in the near future, so this time I'll definitely gonna rinse them before and gonna let you know if that actually has helped.

Thanks for the advice.

RidTheKid
06-15-2017, 04:33 PM
Just wash them in the sink, does the trick :)


If I play with a box of NP40+ for a week or two, that is my favorite ball. If I then grab some D40+ and play with them for a couple of weeks, that becomes my favorite ball! They are really similar, and you just have to get used to the 40 mg difference in weight which is actually noticeable, but not problematic. (The seamless at a point at least were heavier still and seem to float more in the air for some reason, and I suspect it is because they have a slightly larger diameter, but I have not weighed any that were manufacutered recently). By the way, the D40+ stays good longer, there is no question about that. It is definitely more durable. Now, if I go to a website to buy them there is simply no question anymore. The D40+ is my favorite ball because they are 1/3 the price.

By the way, both of them (NP40+ and D40+) are covered with tons of powder when they are new, though. That is annoying.

parkash.imangry
06-16-2017, 07:23 AM
Just played with new DHS balls (Ding Ning ones) and am ready to retract my opinion regarding their low spin. Played wonderfully well last session with as much spin imparted as with other balls. I am so happy now.

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masl83
06-16-2017, 01:58 PM
Hi there, my first post at TTD ;)
Have somebody heard of a change in material with newer Nittaku Premium 40+ balls? Since a short time you can read some comments of buyers who are reporting a change in color and a different sound, adequat to the DHS D40+, so ABS balls.

I've tested the Nittaku Premium 40+ balls in 2016 and played a whole season with them. I've also compared them to older seamless balls from XushaoFa (Joola Flash and Tibhar SynTT SL), to the old DHS 40+ balls, to BTY G40+ in 2016 and actually to newer batches of the seamless ball (GEWO SLP), DHS D40+ and Andro 3S, which should be the same ball.

I didn't like the seamless balls in 2016, but the newer balls are much better, really similar to the Nittaku Premium ball. If there would be a slight change in material composition by Nittaku, I have to order new one to test them again. Because I'm not satisfied with the DHS D40+ balls. They are really slow at our tables (Donic Dehli SLC) and are jumping different compared to celluliod balls from the table with under and sidespin.

ttmonster
06-16-2017, 06:23 PM
For the record , I hate Xushaofas . I feel they are lighter , don't penetrate the sponge as much and moves around in the air like a long pips ball with weird bounce

I didn't like the Ding Ning boxed DHS balls...so much less spin compare to more round, more spinny, more stable Xushaofas.

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parkash.imangry
06-16-2017, 08:06 PM
For the record , I hate Xushaofas . I feel they are lighter , don't penetrate the sponge as much and moves around in the air like a long pips ball with weird bounce
I used to be a long pips player on my BH...but I never have never felt that the bounce of those Xushaofas balls is similar to those of LP-hit balls.

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ttmonster
06-16-2017, 08:28 PM
How about the way it moves in the air when hit with spin ?

I used to be a long pips player on my BH...but I never have never felt that the bounce of those Xushaofas balls is similar to those of LP-hit balls.

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Baal
06-16-2017, 08:31 PM
Hi there, my first post at TTD ;)
Have somebody heard of a change in material with newer Nittaku Premium 40+ balls? Since a short time you can read some comments of buyers who are reporting a change in color and a different sound, adequat to the DHS D40+, so ABS balls.

I've tested the Nittaku Premium 40+ balls in 2016 and played a whole season with them. I've also compared them to older seamless balls from XushaoFa (Joola Flash and Tibhar SynTT SL), to the old DHS 40+ balls, to BTY G40+ in 2016 and actually to newer batches of the seamless ball (GEWO SLP), DHS D40+ and Andro 3S, which should be the same ball.

I didn't like the seamless balls in 2016, but the newer balls are much better, really similar to the Nittaku Premium ball. If there would be a slight change in material composition by Nittaku, I have to order new one to test them again. Because I'm not satisfied with the DHS D40+ balls. They are really slow at our tables (Donic Dehli SLC) and are jumping different compared to celluliod balls from the table with under and sidespin.

They will not play like celluloid, no 40+ does.

parkash.imangry
06-16-2017, 08:51 PM
How about the way it moves in the air when hit with spin ?
May I see the Xushaofa balls you used?

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ttmonster
06-16-2017, 09:02 PM
I never bought them , just hit / played with the stuff that members in the club bought ...
looked like this

https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDk1WDUwMA==/z/eWgAAOSw5cNYiaRw/$_58.JPG

May I see the Xushaofa balls you used?

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parkash.imangry
06-16-2017, 09:03 PM
I never bought them , just hit / played with the stuff that members in the club bought ...
looked like this

https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDk1WDUwMA==/z/eWgAAOSw5cNYiaRw/$_58.JPG
Yeah these are fine but not as good as these ones (the symbol on the right). What you played with are one on the left.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170616/57d756f78104dd9cf0243daf1d4aaf5c.jpg

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MaLongSenpai
06-16-2017, 09:22 PM
A couple of details. Nittaku and D40+ are made of very similar material (versions of acrylonitrile butadiene styrene, or ABS), but not identical because they are a slightly different color. The D40+ is just a tad bit heavier than the Nittaku (2.73 gram vs. 2.69 grams) and has a slightly higher pitched sound. That means the Nittaku is ever so slightly faster than the D40+. So if you really concentrate and switch from one ball to the other randomly you can over time teach yourself to determine the difference between them, but even though they are not precisely identical, it is very easy to switch from one to the other. Those are the two balls I use the most, and I find that switching to anything else now requires some adjustment that takes quite awhile. I have always liked seamless balls, but I like these much more. You tend to like what you are used to, but I liked the Nittaku more the first time I tried it.

Lot of other companies are going to be selling re-branded versions of the D40+ in the future, so probably these will become the dominant balls. I think the CP40+ from TSP is one of those.

Seamless has never been adapted in any pro tournaments that I know of. I never had a roundness issue with them but I have not bought any recently (I bought a bunch when they first came out) and the quality control may have changed. Also, some people say that if they got exposed to heat during shipping that can make them go out of round (I am skeptical of that explanation since I kept a bunch in the trunk of my car in Houston Texas in the summer and it did not make them go out of round). The Yinhe seamless I occasionally see here are quite good.

I hope and suspect that the cellulose acetate balls will disappear. They offer no advantages at all, since they are not round, bounce poorly, are fragile, and are expensive. I don't have any inside information on this, though.

I am curious what Butterfly will do. Will they also sell a rebranded D40+? Before they come out with their G40+, the Butterfly plastic ball was a re-branded cellulose acetate ball, but probably the one made by Double Fish. As with all cellulose acetate balls, it is terrible. I mention Butterfly because sometimes their balls have been used in major events. I very much dislike the G40+ personally and I am glad that it has not really caught on anywhere. I don't like the surface texture (too smooth) and the thing has less arc in the air and the sound is ridiculous. Their practice ball version (Easy Ball) is actually better than their competition ball. Will they in time give up on their German-made balls?


The Nittaku Premium 40+ balls were used in the very recent World Championships; they are without a doubt the best balls on the market. The latest DHS balls are very much a clone of the Nittaku premium balls but quality control is worse in China and they still have the same problem with durability. It's a shame, but Nittaku remain the number one...fin

yuri.saldon
06-16-2017, 10:38 PM
The Nittaku Premium 40+ balls were used in the very recent World Championships; they are without a doubt the best balls on the market. The latest DHS balls are very much a clone of the Nittaku premium balls but quality control is worse in China and they still have the same problem with durability. It's a shame, but Nittaku remain the number one...fin
At least for me the d40+ have a better durability than NP. And I think they feel different because a different material or production.

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Suga D
06-16-2017, 11:06 PM
Hi there, my first post at TTD ;)
Have somebody heard of a change in material with newer Nittaku Premium 40+ balls? Since a short time you can read some comments of buyers who are reporting a change in color and a different sound, adequat to the DHS D40+, so ABS balls.

I've tested the Nittaku Premium 40+ balls in 2016 and played a whole season with them. I've also compared them to older seamless balls from XushaoFa (Joola Flash and Tibhar SynTT SL), to the old DHS 40+ balls, to BTY G40+ in 2016 and actually to newer batches of the seamless ball (GEWO SLP), DHS D40+ and Andro 3S, which should be the same ball.

I didn't like the seamless balls in 2016, but the newer balls are much better, really similar to the Nittaku Premium ball. If there would be a slight change in material composition by Nittaku, I have to order new one to test them again. Because I'm not satisfied with the DHS D40+ balls. They are really slow at our tables (Donic Dehli SLC) and are jumping different compared to celluliod balls from the table with under and sidespin.

Hey Masl, welcome to the forum. Do you have the same username at tt-news.de?
If so we've been communicatin' there a while ago. My name there is Zwirbelheimer.
If not then ignore this post and welcome anyway

yourock
06-16-2017, 11:10 PM
You feel like Xushaofa is like long-pimp ball (lighter), is because it has higher bounce, it's not because its weight is "lighter". When one ball bounces higher than you expected, you subjectively judge it feels "light". Baal has all the datas regarding weight of all types of balls. When one's judgement sounds neutral, it is more believable. If sounds biased, I'd doubt that. For me, I'd never say Nittaku or D40+ are weird just because I'm used to playing with other balls.

Baal
06-17-2017, 12:14 AM
I prefer the NP40 usually but the D40 is more durable. Many people have reported this not just me. I also worry about DHS QC over time. Price differential makes this less of an issue.

ttmonster
06-17-2017, 03:33 AM
You must be right , you are also right in what you said about Baal's recommendation. I just said , "I" hate Xushaofa .. its a personal thing , just to clarify I am not recommending others to not play with them .. I personally like Nitakku 40+ and I am okay with DHS ABS 40+ the one with Ding Ning's picture. I did say somewhere that I chose to go back to Nitakku even though DHS is cheaper because it throws off my timing and NL commented that it should not and I should work on it ... I agree to that too :) ... but its something about XuSHaofa , especially the bounce and the sound , I don't like , for me it feels like playing with "ping pong balls" the really cheap ones made with hard plastic that you cannot destroy .. you can get those back in my country ...

You feel like Xushaofa is like long-pimp ball (lighter), is because it has higher bounce, it's not because its weight is "lighter". When one ball bounces higher than you expected, you subjectively judge it feels "light". Baal has all the datas regarding weight of all types of balls. When one's judgement sounds neutral, it is more believable. If sounds biased, I'd doubt that. For me, I'd never say Nittaku or D40+ are weird just because I'm used to playing with other balls.

Baal
06-17-2017, 12:30 PM
When the only choice was a decent XSF seamless or a horrible cellulose acetate 40+ the obvious choice was XSF. (I wrote a lot of posts about that in early 2014, promoting seamless balls when people were skeptical about them). In retrospect, think that had more to do with how bad the cellulose acetate than anything else. But when Nittaku Premium came out it was a game changer. I my view it was vastly superior and at my club where people buy their own balls it quickly became the dominant ball in spite of its insane price. Around here, the XSF became the multiball or coaching ball of choice.

I agree the main reason XSF is not ideal is because it bounces just a bit too high, and in spite of being heavier, floats a bit in the air. Also, I think the surface is just a little softer. So it seems as it if it is lighter. (A lot of people have said that the Nittaku Premium is heavy when in fact it is the lightest 40+ ball sold today, but it is harder and people sense that as being heavier). There is some reason to think that seamless balls in the last year or so have come down in weight a bit (and possibly diameter0 and that they have made some changes in the plastic and that the seamless balls have become a bit closer to Nittaku. That would be a good thing.

As for someone having a timing issue switching from D40+ to Nittaku? I would argue that those balls are about as close together as a DHS and Nittaku Japan were when both were made of celluloid, and in general nobody gave much thought to switching between balls then. I can switch from one to the other with no problem at all. At most a couple of minutes is all I need.

One thing to keep in mind is that all 40+ balls, are, well, 40 PLUS. They are a little larger in weight and diameter than celluloid balls were and that is a feature, not a bug. ITTF wanted that, even though they never talked about it at the time (they only talked about a mythical ban on celluloid production). That means that no 40+ ball will play exactly like celluloid. It has now been over three years since these balls came out. So we have had time to get used to it. The last few years have been tough because we have had to use 40+ balls with much too variable properties, but this is gradually changing.

Like it or not, the D40+ is about to become the dominant ball because DHS will soon have a gigantic production capacity that dwarfs everyone else and it will be sold under dozens and dozens of brands. So let us just hope they maintain their quality control. Fortunately, at the moment, it is a perfectly good 40+ ball that approaches Nittaku Premium in playing properties, and exceeds it in durability and price.

gman4911
06-17-2017, 04:38 PM
One negative about the NP40+ that hasn't been mentioned, other than the price, is that it loses it's surface texture and becomes slick quicker than the DHS D40+ ball.

MaLongSenpai
06-17-2017, 08:23 PM
There is simply no way that is the case my friend, end of story. One is seamed the other isn't, that alone is enough to undermine the durability of the DHS 40+ balls; furthermore, I doubt you will have used the **every so slightly** improved DHS 40+ balls that you can get on Ali Express atm, meaning you have used the crappy old generation seamed balls which are well know to be plagued with serious durability issues.

You can't have used the Nittaku Premium 40+ Balls extensively otherwise you would be aware of this.

-Henry

UpSideDownCarl
06-17-2017, 09:36 PM
That's why I only bought d40+

The powder problem is easy to resolve. Drop some water than dry it.

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Dima seems to just stick the ball in his mouth. [emoji2]


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Baal
06-17-2017, 09:52 PM
There is simply no way that is the case my friend, end of story. One is seamed the other isn't, that alone is enough to undermine the durability of the DHS 40+ balls; furthermore, I doubt you will have used the **every so slightly** improved DHS 40+ balls that you can get on Ali Express atm, meaning you have used the crappy old generation seamed balls which are well know to be plagued with serious durability issues.

You can't have used the Nittaku Premium 40+ Balls extensively otherwise you would be aware of this.

-Henry

Not quite sure what story you think it is the end of, but not one based in reality. The facts of the matter are that both the Nittaku Premium and the D40+ are seamed ABS balls. The seam is smaller on the Nittaku because they use a different patented method to seal the two ball halves together. It is not easy to see but it is most certainly seamed and if you hold it up to the light you can see it easily. People might not want to listen to someone that claims that either of these balls is seamless.

As for the durability of the D40+ balls, which I have bought from two places now, and which I have used extensively, there is no question whatsoever as to their durability, and that aspect is superior to Nittaku Premium. (Bear in mind that Nittaku durability is just average, oddly enough that was also true with their best celluloid balls too). The seam on the D40+ is larger than Nittaku but having played with them for awhile now, I have not yet managed to break even one D40+ ball along the seam. Basically, they don't break, or only very rarely. They get stepped on , lost, or they eventually the surface gets worn, but that later process takes longer than for Nittaku Premium.

I have been playing with the Nittaku Premium 40+ ball since it was first available, in fact I am sitting here with a box stamped XGAE, which means they were manufactured in July 2015. I bought a really large order right around then and have been rationing them out since. I am very familiar with the Nittaku ball! It is a great ball to play with (some people disagree with that but I don't understand why) --- but durability is not it's strong point. D40+ is a seamed ball made of very similar ABS material and only 0.04 grams heavier, so it is quite similar to play with. Really nobody should have trouble switching back and forth between those two balls.

Here are threads from two other forums where people talk about the durability of the D40+. People disagree on a lot things, like whether they spin the same and other stuff, but not on durability.

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=31070

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=74937&PID=977151&title=dhs-d40-to-be-released-in-april#977151

NextLevel
06-17-2017, 09:56 PM
You feel like Xushaofa is like long-pimp ball (lighter), is because it has higher bounce, it's not because its weight is "lighter". When one ball bounces higher than you expected, you subjectively judge it feels "light". Baal has all the datas regarding weight of all types of balls. When one's judgement sounds neutral, it is more believable. If sounds biased, I'd doubt that. For me, I'd never say Nittaku or D40+ are weird just because I'm used to playing with other balls.

Amen to that!

yoass
06-17-2017, 10:01 PM
The facts of the matter are […]

When Baal talks balls I just go oooooh ​with admiration.

NextLevel
06-17-2017, 10:06 PM
I have been testing balls for as long as Baal has and I haven't found anything he says to be outside of 1% of what I believe. I have test just about every major variety if 3* ball. Because I coach and still play rated events, ball price and quality are big deals to me.

BTW, I strongly suspect the first XSF balls were ABS before the new logo one's switched to a less durable material.

yourock
06-17-2017, 10:30 PM
This topic is now heated. Obviously discussion over balls will not be gone in at least one year, I assume. I haven't done that thorough lab tests on balls, but I like collecting "feelings" on ball playing performance then analyze. When I say I like Xushaofa ball, not meaning this brand's ball, I like seamless balls like Xiom, Joola Flash, Yinhe as well as XSF. Two best qualities about seamless ball are awesome durability and very very regular bounce, I can always judge which point/height it may bounce to at play. Perception about ball at play is very good. For sure no other seamed balls would ever bounce that perfectly regular as seamless, as long as one is seamed and one is seamless. For a seamed ball, its shell thickness is destined to be uneven at the seam and at other sphere areas. So imperfect bounce would be a thing that seamed balls would never get rid of. Speaking of seamless ball "floating" in the air, my common sense tells me this is easy to find logic behind it: evenly-distributed weight all over the seamless ball makes it not curve/drop like a seamed ball, the weight of latter is unevenly distributed at the seam and at other spots on the ball. For me, good perception is what I'm looking for from a table tennis ball.
Baal's knowledge on balls is excellent. And his posts drew my attention when I first joined this forum. So, I wouldn't doubt his judgement.
Above is simply stating what I like and what I think.

MaLongSenpai
06-17-2017, 10:49 PM
The new DHS 40+ Balls are an improvement for sure, I have 20 on the way from China however the fact remains that DHS balls will always have inferior durability and I will maintain that to the day I die. Unless these new balls blow my mind, which I am confident they will not then I will maintain my opinion that Nittaku are the market leaders in terms of durability at the very least. The premium line ball is fantastic to play with, truly!

Suga D
06-18-2017, 12:22 AM
IMHO I don't think it's very smart to judge over things before having personal experience. It comes across a bit prejudice, don't ya think?
Also your opinion would be more relevant if it wasn' t just based on assumptions and if you were playing with them already for a while. But otherwise....
[Emoji15]
Anyhow, I like both balls, and their playing properties are nearly identical but the price and the durability of the D40+ makes it hard not to prefer the D40+ over the NP40+, 'cause even if NP40+ is the closest to the celluloid ball, the performance of the D40+ isn't far behind and coming from the NP40+ one can adapt to it within minutes.
But just give 'em personally a try and then let us know what you think.
Wouldn't be surprised if your opinion will change.
From knowing the old DHS balls I first really was sceptical too, but not anymore....

Baal
06-18-2017, 02:28 AM
Actually I would go so far as to say that Next Level has actually tried more plastic balls than I have because to date I have not seen or hit with the Double Fish ABS ball. On the other hand, I tend to obsess more, and do things like weigh them, measure their roundness and such. When plastic balls came out I kind of made it my "mission" to know as much as I could because I was so discouraged by some of the first seamed balls on the market, and also I managed to hit with an early seamless prototype (which was really bad). So this is one of the things in table tennis I know a bit about, plus I follow what other people write about them, including people who have taken trouble to search out the patents etc.

If I write something about Nittaku or D40+ balls, for example on their durability, it is not really guessing. It is because I have had enough experience with these things to actually know (in other words, I don't make comments about products I haven't tried and I know which balls have seams and which ones don't). And durability is like weight. It is something you can know objectively. By the way, I have had nothing good to say about any DHS ball ever marketed before these. Because the stuff they have sold before this is so bad, I was not expecting to be impressed by any ball they sell. But the D40+ is (at the moment) an outstanding product, and I hope it remains that way. So is the Nittaku Premium but about 50% more expensive than it should be.

To be honest, now that the ball situation is settling down a bit, and we have some good options (seamless, Nittaku, D40+ and its clones), I am going to obsess less because the subject is starting to get boring and old. It still annoys me when I see misinformation about 40+ balls out there, but whatever. I should just let it slide now.

masl83
06-19-2017, 09:57 AM
Hey Masl, welcome to the forum. Do you have the same username at tt-news.de?
If so we've been communicatin' there a while ago. My name there is Zwirbelheimer.
If not then ignore this post and welcome anyway

Yes I am.

at all, so nobody has recognized a small change in material for NP40+?

at Baal, I'm not expecting the same behaviour as celluloid balls, but the difference between DHS D40+ and NP40+ playing at our tables is significant.

NextLevel
06-19-2017, 10:14 AM
You must be right , you are also right in what you said about Baal's recommendation. I just said , "I" hate Xushaofa .. its a personal thing , just to clarify I am not recommending others to not play with them .. I personally like Nitakku 40+ and I am okay with DHS ABS 40+ the one with Ding Ning's picture. I did say somewhere that I chose to go back to Nitakku even though DHS is cheaper because it throws off my timing and NL commented that it should not and I should work on it ... I agree to that too :) ... but its something about XuSHaofa , especially the bounce and the sound , I don't like , for me it feels like playing with "ping pong balls" the really cheap ones made with hard plastic that you cannot destroy .. you can get those back in my country ...

I don't like a variety of balls (Butterfly G40+, Old DHS) and it is isn't entirely objective as I can play at the same level as I currently do with both of them *if* I practice extensively with them. Without practice, my close to the table game suffers as it is based on precision and my serve game suffers with G40+ (bounces too high with too little grip) and my rally game suffers with Old DHS (bounces too low). But if I play enough, am giving fair warning, and I practice in advance and adapt, good things happen as I adjust. XuShaofa should be no different, after a few minutes to a hour, you should be fully focused.

Baal
06-19-2017, 02:01 PM
Yes I am.

at all, so nobody has recognized a small change in material for NP40+?

at Baal, I'm not expecting the same behaviour as celluloid balls, but the difference between DHS D40+ and NP40+ playing at our tables is significant.

I guess the key is in what is meant by words like significant. I can tell which is which but I can switch between the Nittaku and D40 easily and with less time for adjustment than I need to switch to any other balls. This is on three different kinds of tables, Tibhar 28, Butterfly, and most recently on Gewo 25 at Suga's club near Frankfurt. For me I am very happy to play with either one. The Nittaku is slightly lighter. That definitely has an effect, but for me it doesnt matter much. As for recent changes in Nittaku, since I have several boxes of unused 2015 balls, I will compare vs newer ones.

UpSideDownCarl
06-19-2017, 05:26 PM
IMHO I don't think it's very smart to judge over things before having personal experience. It comes across a bit prejudice, don't ya think?....


....on Gewo 25 at Suga's club near Frankfurt.

I will refrain from hijacking this thread. But I am going to open a different thread with these two quote to ask for photos....video.....documentation....evidence of this TTDaily gathering. [emoji2]


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

ttmonster
06-19-2017, 07:52 PM
If there are no photos , it did not happen , period ! :D

I will refrain from hijacking this thread. But I am going to open a different thread with these two quote to ask for photos....video.....documentation....evidence of this TTDaily gathering. [emoji2]


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

masl83
06-20-2017, 09:06 AM
The Nittaku is slightly lighter. That definitely has an effect, but for me it doesnt matter much. As for recent changes in Nittaku, since I have several boxes of unused 2015 balls, I will compare vs newer ones.

Maybe that's the difference in our balls we refer to. Here is my documentation for all plastic balls I ordered since mid 2016. My DHS D40+ balls are slightly heavier, thats true. But der Andro 3S balls, which is quite likely the same ball, is lighter than NP40+. I will append my measurements, sorry this is in german but it was done for me and a greman speaking forum.13561

The difference we can recognize in our club is bouncing from the table with spinny balls. But ok, I don't want to stress this topic any longer.

Baal
06-20-2017, 03:07 PM
Maybe that's the difference in our balls we refer to. Here is my documentation for all plastic balls I ordered since mid 2016. My DHS D40+ balls are slightly heavier, thats true. But der Andro 3S balls, which is quite likely the same ball, is lighter than NP40+. I will append my measurements, sorry this is in german but it was done for me and a greman speaking forum.13561

The difference we can recognize in our club is bouncing from the table with spinny balls. But ok, I don't want to stress this topic any longer.

Interesting. In the case of balls we have both measured, a lot of my my measurements precisely agree with yours (for example Nittaku SHA, old DHS). Because of that, I don't think there is any systematic difference in the way we measure. So based on that, I think you are almost certainly correct that Nittaku has changed, and in particular it seems that Nittaku Premiums have gotten a little heavier since 2015 (when they were 2.67-2.69 grams). I would speculate that Nittaku might have had to do that to keep their balls in ITTF approval. However, my batch of D40+ weighed around 2.72-2.73 g, in the same range as your Andro balls. Code on box is XBAG, i.e. February 2017. This raises all sorts of questions in my mind. Are they perhaps using two factories?