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Khang09
06-16-2017, 08:19 PM
Hello guys,

In the past I struggled keeping my forehand topspins consistent.
After the 3rd ball attack I can just do like 2-3 loops more and then I just hit the ball so that my opponent can attack.
I feel like I dont have any power to do more topspins.
Do you have any advice how to keep a consistent loop ?
Or do you think that if I continue to practise the problem would just disapper ??

Thank you in advance :)

MindTrip
06-16-2017, 08:53 PM
I get that way sometimes. For me, it's just me getting lazy by not wanting to move back in to the table after my opponents soft block or not taking the game seriously. I have to remind myself to stay light on my feet and keep my center of gravity low. Other times it's more of a conditioning problem.

Khang09
06-16-2017, 09:00 PM
I get that way sometimes. For me, it's just me getting lazy by not wanting to move back in to the table after my opponents soft block or not taking the game seriously. I have to remind myself to stay light on my feet and keep my center of gravity low. Other times it's more of a conditioning problem.


Ah thanks for the quick response :)
I will keep that in mind for my next training session !

Der_Echte
06-16-2017, 11:27 PM
I will be the odd crazy joker who says finishing on balance, getting into position, and striking the next loop in your effective strike zone goes a long way towards consistency. Having a good short area whip is the next level... pun intended.

NextLevel
06-16-2017, 11:28 PM
Without video, the problem is impossible to answer.

Der_Echte
06-16-2017, 11:30 PM
NL missed the pun... must have posted at the same time or was gluing on rubbers to his 2nd/3rd Kim Jung Hoon blade.

Der_Echte
06-16-2017, 11:32 PM
Khang... when Bavarians meet you do they say "Du bist kein Hesse." ???

gekogark1212
06-16-2017, 11:39 PM
I'd say turn your body, ensure proper rotation on contact. But tbh after the first 3 or so well placed loops you should be able to smash for a winner (that's how I play anyway)

Ilia Minkin
06-17-2017, 01:29 AM
Yeah, just film yourself doing forehand to forehand loops for a minute or the drill the gives you trouble. A smartphone with a camera is enough for that.

UpSideDownCarl
06-17-2017, 01:57 AM
Yep. Without footage to see what you are actually doing, there is no real way to answer.

Things off the top of my head are:

--It could be your reset is too slow so, after 1 or 2 you are getting caught off balance and not set. You can't hit the ball well if you are not set.

--It could be that your stroke is too big.

--It could be that you are using too much upper arm/shoulder and not enough snap from FH.

--It could be that you have funny mechanics and so, after the 1st or 2nd loop you have wasted too much effort already.

Should I go on. Answers without seeing what you are doing are simply blind guesses. And we don't even know the scenario of when this happens to you.

--Is it in match play?

--Is it during game simulation drills?

--Is it when you are trying to loop against someone blocking for you?

--Is it in footwork drills?

--Is it in random element drills?

You did say it is after a third ball attack. But what comes after? Is it a drill or match play? You could swing too big or reset slowly after the third ball attack and that may lead to a snowball effect of you reseting later and later.

fais
06-17-2017, 02:47 AM
Yep. Without footage to see what you are actually doing, there is no real way to answer.

Things off the top of my head are:

--It could be your reset is too slow so, after 1 or 2 you are getting caught off balance and not set. You can't hit the ball well if you are not set.

--It could be that your stroke is too big.

--It could be that you are using too much upper arm/shoulder and not enough snap from FH.

--It could be that you have funny mechanics and so, after the 1st or 2nd loop you have wasted too much effort already.

Should I go on. Answers without seeing what you are doing are simply blind guesses. And we don't even know the scenario of when this happens to you.

--Is it in match play?

--Is it during game simulation drills?

--Is it when you are trying to loop against someone blocking for you?

--Is it in footwork drills?

--Is it in random element drills?

You did say it is after a third ball attack. But what comes after? Is it a drill or match play? You could swing too big or reset slowly after the third ball attack and that may lead to a snowball effect of you reseting later and later.

This comment is money right here. I find this is the the most significant difference between casual pongers and TT players. To play TT at a higher level, you really have to understand stroke mechanics and timings, and you need to be in good condition to execute them correctly because the right way is so much harder, unnatural and downright non intuitive than the casual way.

sanavasaraja
06-17-2017, 07:27 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3sLSMXWjis

Here's a video talking about forehand technique. The guy is 19xx TTR and is struggling somewhat with his forehand topspin trying the find the optimum for him between chinese and european elements. He is talking about being consistent, energy efficient while still creating more spin. Since it's in german I thought this could be interesting for you

Rajah*
06-17-2017, 08:04 AM
How strong/workacholic is your legs when you play?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

yoass
06-17-2017, 10:03 AM
Hello guys,

In the past I struggled keeping my forehand topspins consistent.
After the 3rd ball attack I can just do like 2-3 loops more and then I just hit the ball so that my opponent can attack.
I feel like I dont have any power to do more topspins.
Do you have any advice how to keep a consistent loop ?
Or do you think that if I continue to practise the problem would just disapper ??

I sometimes get that too. It happens when I'm tensing up, get overfocused, harden my core and hit with power — while somehow forgetting to breathe. The key is to get that relaxed more, I think, and lots of practice (to automate things) and and automation to get the feel and timing just right for "whip mechanics" to do their thing rather than making that stroke by force is the way to go. Easier said than done, I know.

Khang09
06-17-2017, 11:27 AM
First of all, thank you guys for response :)
My next training session is on Monday and I will make some footage for you guys so that you can help me out.

Khang09
06-17-2017, 11:28 AM
Khang... when Bavarians meet you do they say "Du bist kein Hesse." ???

Hahahaha, I never met an Bavarian saying that to me :D

Der_Echte
06-17-2017, 07:27 PM
Khang, I simply HAD to say that once I sa2 your location. I claim a hometown in your capital of Hessen.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Forte
06-19-2017, 08:37 AM
Many good thoughts here. One thing that I notice with myself is that I tend to forget to breathe. This gives me the exact same problems as you describe: 1, 2, 3 loops are fine, then things start getting messy as I loose my breathe. I didn't notice it myself until my coach mentioned it. The solution for me is to breathe out on every hit. Takes a while to get used to but the results are great once I start doing it.

Khang09
06-19-2017, 08:44 PM
So here is the footage of my training session. (Im the taller asian guy)
In this session I didn´t feel like im having those Topspin issues.
I felt like I´m loosing control while playing as you might see in this footage.
Btw. pls dont judge me :D The first time I see myself playing :D

If you see something I´m doing wrong or something I can improve on feel free to tell me :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceGCfyf6FuM&feature=youtu.be
Thank you in Advance

UpSideDownCarl
06-19-2017, 10:01 PM
So here is the footage of my training session. (Im the taller asian guy)
In this session I didn´t feel like im having those Topspin issues.
I felt like I´m loosing control while playing as you might see in this footage.
Btw. pls dont judge me :D The first time I see myself playing :D

If you see something I´m doing wrong or something I can improve on feel free to tell me :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceGCfyf6FuM&feature=youtu.be
Thank you in Advance

First thing I am going to say is, one thing you are doing right is that most of the time you get pretty nice spin. When you fix the followthrough on your FH, that will increase. But your touch is good.

Two things you can work on to improve very easily:

1) Return of serve.
2) FH followthrough.

1) For practicing return of serve there is something simple that will help you. You are naturally gifted and learn fast. If you are only playing for 9 months, you really are playing quite well.

Just have a few different people serve to you over and over again. Play out the points. But focus on the return of serve. Have them serve as though they are trying to win the point whether that means the serve wins the point or that they set you up for their third ball. Practice that drill for a decent amount of time. It will help your level improve.

2) Your FH followthrough is inconsistent. The good news is that this is because you are trying to adjust to each separate ball. The bad news is, the followthrough really should still be consistent. Ultimately, you should adjust to each separate ball and the stroke and followthrough should still be consistent.

One thing that could help: Shadow Strokes. If I was you, I would do these in front of a mirror so you can see and hopefully correct your form so the followthrough is complete, and the reset is fast.

You should do a decent amount of FH shadow strokes and BH shadow strokes. FH may be more important for you right now. But both will be useful.

If you did about 3000 FH (approx 30 min) and 3000 BH (approx 30 min) shadow strokes 3-4 times between now and next Monday, my money says your stroke will improve a certain amount without any other instruction. If you got a decent TT coach to show you what that shadow stroke should look like, beforehand, it will improve a noticeable amount more. But you may not need that part.

With the shadow strokes, just simple, loop, loop, loop, loop....as though someone very precise keeps blocking back to the same location for you.

After you have done that 3-4 times, you could start adding footwork to it to make it more fun.

Here is footage of shadow stroke + footwork:


https://youtu.be/JMUgZJWxQfI


https://youtu.be/v-C4nbKAiTs

Sorry. I don't have footage of just the stroke without the footwork. But both will help.

After that. A little time with a coach could really help. If you get the mechanics of a good stroke into muscle memory first and then take 2-4 lessons, your level will jump.

If your receive of serve improves, you will Jump even more. But you are doing the most important thing well. You have good touch and contact for spinning the ball.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

ttmonster
06-19-2017, 10:15 PM
I saw Carl like your post a minute or two before I did , so I let him take the first stab. I of course agree with what he is saying. You should consider yourself lucky you have a good practice partner though if he focuses a bit more when he is blocking it will help your game as well as his block . My 2 cents ... You are really doing well for someone who has started just 9 months back , I think you could work on the following :
1. Forehand : Pinch the rubbers with your fingers instead of holding the handle. I felt like sometimes your index finger is slipping forward when you are looping , you are the best person to tell if that is case, if it is then your fingers are loose and your pressre is on the fingers holding the handle , it should be the other way round , with firming up of the index when FH looping contact is made and firming up of thumb when backhand looping contact is made.
2. BH Strokes : Try to keep your elbow stable and rotate around the elbow with a frisbee throwing action ..

The key thing is that your fingers should hold the "blade of the paddle " and not hold the handle ... your strokes are a little big but it should evolve and you will learn to adjust the size of the swing ..

Takkyu_wa_inochi
06-20-2017, 01:58 AM
So here is the footage of my training session. (Im the taller asian guy)
In this session I didn´t feel like im having those Topspin issues.
I felt like I´m loosing control while playing as you might see in this footage.
Btw. pls dont judge me :D The first time I see myself playing :D

If you see something I´m doing wrong or something I can improve on feel free to tell me :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceGCfyf6FuM&feature=youtu.be
Thank you in Advance

Hi first of all, like others said, for someone who's been playing only 9 months, its very good.

Here is what i saw:

FH: i don't know why you're complaining, in the 1st minute of the video, its actually quite good drive, you take a lot of backswing, that gives you power and spin and your opponent can never block more than 2 or 3. Difficult then to talk about consistency because your opponent is not feeding you consistently... Try to not move forward that right foot after you swing, and transfer more weight into the left foot.

BH: you're way too tense, relax more. shorten the stroke.

serves: they're all too high, some of them are illegal you're not throwing the ball. You have to contact the ball as low as possible

receive: I saw you pushing many FH in the net on short serves. Yes you are stepping to the ball, (thats a good thing) but way too late. you have to aim to contact the ball right after the bounce for a short receive , and in the ascending phase for a long push. be more relaxed as well

footwork: you're very young but i felt its quite slow. at 1'50 you could not pivot correctly.

the general posture and attitude is good, you're tall but trying to keep both lower body and upper body low.

Schlaftablette
06-20-2017, 02:38 AM
Hi :)

you are just playing for 9 months now? Seems like you really have a talent for this sport.

May I ask your age? You seem still to be in the "growing phase" of your body, so the problem you describe is just natural.

Three things you should work on:

1. You definitely need to do a lot of coordination and balance practice to counter the "negative" effects of growing up. Juggling while standing on one foot or rotating your arms counter direction aso. Just google some chores for that or I am sure someone in this forum has the time and muse to write a wall of text for you.

2. Practice! Set a goal, for example 10.000 forehand drives a week. But try to include chores in which you have to move. As a warm up it is alright to play from a standing position, but after that you should always have to move to the ball for a forehand drive.

3. Don't be afraid of making mistakes! If you are afraid of making mistakes, you won't improve!

decoy
06-20-2017, 02:55 AM
be ready for the return. after each stroke be in your ready position

ttmonster
06-20-2017, 05:38 AM
@Der_Echte : Sure this is not your long lost brother ? especially the "any ESN rubber" part seemed too familiar ..

Hi :)

you are just playing for 9 months now? Seems like you really have a talent for this sport.

May I ask your age? You seem still to be in the "growing phase" of your body, so the problem you describe is just natural.

Three things you should work on:

1. You definitely need to do a lot of coordination and balance practice to counter the "negative" effects of growing up. Juggling while standing on one foot or rotating your arms counter direction aso. Just google some chores for that or I am sure someone in this forum has the time and muse to write a wall of text for you.

2. Practice! Set a goal, for example 10.000 forehand drives a week. But try to include chores in which you have to move. As a warm up it is alright to play from a standing position, but after that you should always have to move to the ball for a forehand drive.

3. Don't be afraid of making mistakes! If you are afraid of making mistakes, you won't improve!

Der_Echte
06-20-2017, 05:57 AM
ttmonster, Schlafftablette is my lost brother I never met, he is one of the few remaining in Korea. He is also prolly the only other amature TT player who speaks German and Korean like I do.

Der_Echte
06-20-2017, 06:06 AM
I gotta say Schlafftablette's first observation is the best one.

Khang is not on balance. Often, he hits the ball not in his optimal strike zone, doesn't position himself well for the next ball, and by the third ball, he is hitting the ball way out of his effective zone. Some of it is balance. Some of it is not taking micro step hops. Some of it is trying to put way to long a swing on the ball. Some of it is positioning too far back. Some of it is not reading the bounce on the ball well enough.

Either way, he is hitting out of zone off balance with too much force trying to play macho man table tennis. Khang needs to learn how to be a little more loose, use shorter strokes and transfer power more effectively.

If Khang is Korean, I would tell him to look at every Kim Jung Hoon vid on his youtube channel and study. If he doesn't know Korean, then he could search for the KJH vid threads I jisted, I did 6 or so of them. KJH throws out a lot of useful nuggets.

One day, I will go back to Korea and visit him in his new club, and also RSM with Joel.

I agree with Schlafftablette's recommendations to address some of this - exercises that emphasize balance. That will help half his problem right away. STL's recommendation to do 10 Billion practice is also a measure that will get him "There" wherever that is.

Der_Echte
06-20-2017, 06:11 AM
I think I failed to mention staying loose, which Takkyu W.I. emphasized very correctly. Controlling grip pressure at impact and staying loose to make a short area whip are very essential foundations for many strokes.

UpSideDownCarl
06-20-2017, 12:10 PM
Another detail is the feet and hips. When he is hitting FH his feet and hips look like they are too squared towards the table. Sometimes it even looks like his right foot is closer to the table than his left foot on FH strokes. Having the right foot a little farther back and the hips turned a little to the right before the stroke will help the balance and the stroke.

Khang09
06-20-2017, 12:23 PM
First thing I am going to say is, one thing you are doing right is that most of the time you get pretty nice spin. When you fix the followthrough on your FH, that will increase. But your touch is good.

Two things you can work on to improve very easily:

1) Return of serve.
2) FH followthrough.

1) For practicing return of serve there is something simple that will help you. You are naturally gifted and learn fast. If you are only playing for 9 months, you really are playing quite well.

Just have a few different people serve to you over and over again. Play out the points. But focus on the return of serve. Have them serve as though they are trying to win the point whether that means the serve wins the point or that they set you up for their third ball. Practice that drill for a decent amount of time. It will help your level improve.

2) Your FH followthrough is inconsistent. The good news is that this is because you are trying to adjust to each separate ball. The bad news is, the followthrough really should still be consistent. Ultimately, you should adjust to each separate ball and the stroke and followthrough should still be consistent.

One thing that could help: Shadow Strokes. If I was you, I would do these in front of a mirror so you can see and hopefully correct your form so the followthrough is complete, and the reset is fast.

You should do a decent amount of FH shadow strokes and BH shadow strokes. FH may be more important for you right now. But both will be useful.

If you did about 3000 FH (approx 30 min) and 3000 BH (approx 30 min) shadow strokes 3-4 times between now and next Monday, my money says your stroke will improve a certain amount without any other instruction. If you got a decent TT coach to show you what that shadow stroke should look like, beforehand, it will improve a noticeable amount more. But you may not need that part.

With the shadow strokes, just simple, loop, loop, loop, loop....as though someone very precise keeps blocking back to the same location for you.

After you have done that 3-4 times, you could start adding footwork to it to make it more fun.

Here is footage of shadow stroke + footwork:


https://youtu.be/JMUgZJWxQfI


https://youtu.be/v-C4nbKAiTs

Sorry. I don't have footage of just the stroke without the footwork. But both will help.

After that. A little time with a coach could really help. If you get the mechanics of a good stroke into muscle memory first and then take 2-4 lessons, your level will jump.

If your receive of serve improves, you will Jump even more. But you are doing the most important thing well. You have good touch and contact for spinning the ball.


Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy


Okay I will keep your tips and exercises in mind for the future.
Thank you guys (especially Carl) for taking time helping me out ! :D

Khang09
06-20-2017, 12:49 PM
May I ask your age? You seem still to be in the "growing phase" of your body, so the problem you describe is just natural.



Im 14 years old right now

UpSideDownCarl
06-20-2017, 12:56 PM
Okay I will keep your tips and exercises in mind for the future.
Thank you guys (especially Carl) for taking time helping me out ! :D

Just for info, here is a story. The shadow stroke drills I suggested, I originally got that from a coach named Alex Perez who lives in my area and who I am friends with. He is an excellent coach. This was about 8 years ago.

He was having problems with his back and he heard that in my work, one of the things I do is help people who have back problems get better. So he asked if we could do an exchange: I show him some things to do to help his back and do a session with him that makes his back feel better. And he would give me a lesson.

When I agreed to the exchange he watched me play some matches. And then he called me over and he said: "I have to tell you, my back, its not so bad. Your table tennis, it is worse." :) I laughed and he was really correct. I was pretty bad back then. My technique, my form, was pretty bad. You are better than I was back then. :)

So he brought me to a mirror, showed me what a stroke for FH and a stroke for BH should look like. He actually showed me a FH counterhit stroke and larger FH loop stroke. And he did the same for BH. He showed me in front of the mirror until he was satisfied that the form of the Shadow Strokes were decent. Then he told me pretty much what I told you. He told me, 3000 FH and 3000 BH every day, from when he showed me till the next week when he would give me a lesson.

He also told me that he would know if I practiced or not. I actually like doing shadow strokes. I find it fun. I will do them whenever I can't get to a table. I actually do them lefty and righty. And I have found that doing them lefty helps my stroke righty, which is kind of cool.

But, anyway, after I did the shadow strokes the first time, the next time I was at the table, I could feel the difference. By the time I did the whole week, doing shadow strokes every day, I could definitely tell. When I did the lesson with Alex, he told me he knew that I did the shadow strokes. He could tell. He saw the difference in the stroke; he saw the difference in my contact. I could feel the difference in my stroke and contact as well. To me, back then it was kind of cool to feel the extra power with seemingly less effort: better mechanics does = more power + less effort.

And when I added the footwork with the strokes, that really helped as well. I am pretty confident that without those shadow stroke/footwork drills, my technique would still be pretty terrible because I started playing at the age of 44 years old. :)

And I am confident shadow strokes will help your mechanics too. If you really do them, I have a feeling the people around you will be amazed at how fast you will get better. And they already should be impressed with how far you have come in just 9 months. But I am pretty sure the shadow strokes will make the next jump of improvements go even faster.

Khang09
06-20-2017, 01:08 PM
Just for info, here is a story. The shadow stroke drills I suggested, I originally got that from a coach named Alex Perez who lives in my area and who I am friends with. He is an excellent coach. This was about 8 years ago.

He was having problems with his back and he heard that in my work, one of the things I do is help people who have back problems get better. So he asked if we could do an exchange: I show him some things to do to help his back and do a session with him that makes his back feel better. And he would give me a lesson.

When I agreed to the exchange he watched me play some matches. And then he called me over and he said: "I have to tell you, my back, its not so bad. Your table tennis, it is worse." :) I laughed and he was really correct. I was pretty bad back then. My technique, my form, was pretty bad. You are better than I was back then. :)

So he brought me to a mirror, showed me what a stroke for FH and a stroke for BH should look like. He actually showed me a FH counterhit stroke and larger FH loop stroke. And he did the same for BH. He showed me in front of the mirror until he was satisfied that the form of the Shadow Strokes were decent. Then he told me pretty much what I told you. He told me, 3000 FH and 3000 BH every day, from when he showed me till the next week when he would give me a lesson.

He also told me that he would know if I practiced or not. I actually like doing shadow strokes. I find it fun. I will do them whenever I can't get to a table. I actually do them lefty and righty. And I have found that doing them lefty helps my stroke righty, which is kind of cool.

But, anyway, after I did the shadow strokes the first time, the next time I was at the table, I could feel the difference. By the time I did the whole week, doing shadow strokes every day, I could definitely tell. When I did the lesson with Alex, he told me he knew that I did the shadow strokes. He could tell. He saw the difference in the stroke; he saw the difference in my contact. I could feel the difference in my contact and stroke as well. To me, back then it was kind of cool to feel the extra power with seemingly less effort: better mechanics does = more power + less effort.

And when I added the footwork with the strokes, that really helped as well. I am pretty confident that without those shadow stroke/footwork drills, my technique would still be pretty terrible because I started playing at the age of 44 years old. :)

And I am confident shadow strokes will help your mechanics too. If you really do them, I have a feeling the people around you will be amazed at how fast you will get better. And they already should be impressed with how far you have come in just 9 months. But I am pretty sure the shadow strokes will make the next jump of improvements go even faster.

Hahaha nice story :D
I will try practising whenever I can and after all your tips from all over the world I feel very confident and more motivated playing TT.

Thank you guys so much ! :D

Ilia Minkin
06-20-2017, 01:45 PM
Khang09, I think that your forehand is very good :) But if you struggle with consistency, just practice consistently. Slow down your shot so that you don't overpower your partner. In the video you seem to make every next shot faster than the previous one. Instead, try to make 10, 20, 30, ... 100 loops in a row in the same rhythm. Then try to play two-point forehand: ask your friend to place the ball one to the forehand, one to the middle and so on and practice it. Again, go for consistency and maintain the rhythm. Then practice a random forehand where your friend places the ball randomly to a half-table (or 2/3) and you play to the same spot. Good luck!

ajtatosmano2
06-20-2017, 03:12 PM
Hi Khang,

pretty much everything is mentioned above. It's natural that you have problems with consistency, with time it will improve. I know, I've started at your age. What is important to find the right place for you to play (if you are the best there train with the coach or find stronger partners. Keep training and the results will come!

phillypong
06-21-2017, 10:10 AM
I saw Carl like your post a minute or two before I did , so I let him take the first stab. I of course agree with what he is saying. You should consider yourself lucky you have a good practice partner though if he focuses a bit more when he is blocking it will help your game as well as his block . My 2 cents ... You are really doing well for someone who has started just 9 months back , I think you could work on the following :
1. Forehand : Pinch the rubbers with your fingers instead of holding the handle. I felt like sometimes your index finger is slipping forward when you are looping , you are the best person to tell if that is case, if it is then your fingers are loose and your pressre is on the fingers holding the handle , it should be the other way round , with firming up of the index when FH looping contact is made and firming up of thumb when backhand looping contact is made.
2. BH Strokes : Try to keep your elbow stable and rotate around the elbow with a frisbee throwing action ..

The key thing is that your fingers should hold the "blade of the paddle " and not hold the handle ... your strokes are a little big but it should evolve and you will learn to adjust the size of the swing ..

Very important what ttmonster is saying ! It is VERY important to use the fingers to hold the blade (that is the thumb and index finger) . There is a video from Ben Larcombe on this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXAXpZ8jRZw
And a video from Emrattich too :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z2G21WHIrY

After trying this , i do believe this is really important ! Check it out guys !:)

suds79
06-21-2017, 01:23 PM
I think this was touched on by others so I'll try to be quick.

I play penhold short pips so I won't really comment on whip mechanics or spinning it up on your FH. While it's good to want to improve every aspect of your game (here you were talking about FH consistency), I think you should focus on your short game. Namely in service return. Too many pure backspin serves pushed into the net. I'd shore that up first before I'd worry about your FH. You had some nice FH & BH rips in there.

Not trying to be harsh or anything. I think I need to work on my push game also.

But that's what I see from the video.

fais
06-22-2017, 12:08 AM
Re your FH loop, I don't know if this has been said already or not, but I did notice on quite a few of your forehand loops during warmup, your upper body was rotating at the waist and your hips were not engaged. (Your feet were heavily planted, so there was some discontinuity in your follow through).

Other than that, it is now merely a matter of familiarizing and cementing, which will only come through practice, where you "trim off the excess fat" in your stroke.

Baal
06-22-2017, 01:52 AM
Here is another tip. Relax your face while looping and make sure you breathe during the point. Kind of a zen trick.

Ilia Minkin
06-22-2017, 06:08 AM
Here is another tip. Relax your face while looping

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/cache.php?img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.pictures.zimbio.com%2Fgi%2F2014%2BSummer%2BYouth%2BOlympic%2BGames%2BDay%2B7%2BVEaQN1UXHFBx.jpg

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/fanzhendongjapanwinner0216.jpg

Baal
06-22-2017, 01:33 PM
Try it anyway. FZD is not holding his breath. Our OP might be. I see it a lot. (Also, in a picture that freezes a moment in time, players faces may be moving but it doesn't mean facial muscles are contracting, below see how relaxed Vladi is, and if you actually watch him live, the really noticeable thing is that he has tremendous power from that relaxed stroke). Part of what contributes to these kinds of forehand spin consistency problems is failure to sufficiently relax the upper body. For people with this problem (not everyone) relaxing the face can be a useful starting point. Like I said, try it. It is a zen trick. (If your face is saying grrrrrrrrrr!!!!! while you loop, probably your whole upper body is tight).

13587

Ilia Minkin
06-22-2017, 04:01 PM
I am just kidding :) Whenever somebody brings up the facial expressions, I immediately start to think about FZD. He is the king of epic mimic!

UpSideDownCarl
06-22-2017, 04:45 PM
Try it anyway. FZD is not holding his breath. Our OP might be. I see it a lot. (Also, in a picture that freezes a moment in time, players faces may be moving but it doesn't mean facial muscles are contracting, below see how relaxed Vladi is, and if you actually watch him live, the really noticeable thing is that he has tremendous power from that relaxed stroke). Part of what contributes to these kinds of forehand spin consistency problems is failure to sufficiently relax the upper body. For people with this problem (not everyone) relaxing the face can be a useful starting point. Like I said, try it. It is a zen trick. (If your face is saying grrrrrrrrrr!!!!! while you loop, probably your whole upper body is tight).

13587

Baal is talking about a few things. And they are deep, hard to get control over, and important.

I am going to give a few stories. I will see it I can keep them short. I think, sometimes stories help.

Back when I was inline skating and before I was good at it, I saw some photos that looked like I was sticking my tongue into my cheek.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170622/de660c62e8004403ac3545e4ac787fa6.jpg

I thought, "I'm not doing that! Why do the photos come out like that?"

As I started improving, I started feeling it and the tension associated with it. Then it stopped. But I could do it on purpose when I wanted to and that was different. Because it wasn't tense. When I stopped doing it, my level as a ramp skater definitely jumped.

For athletic endeavor you actually need to be relaxed and able to apply force when necessary. In TT that is on impact.

Guys like FZD probably do contract everything for a moment on impact. But it is not the kind of tension we are talking about. And right after the major force on impact, most likely, everything relaxes again.

Now, when my wife was pregnant, we did pregnancy classes. They taught us breathing to help the birthing process; the breathing=>more relaxed=>better.

When we were in the hospital for the real thing, one of the nurses asked us where we did the birthing classes because she was impressed at how good I was with helping her with the breathing and the whole thing. I laughed and told her I was a yoga teacher.

I don't know about other yoga people, but the way I teach the breath is a huge part of the whole thing. The breath can really help you relax and open in a yoga practice. But the way you would breath for a yoga practice is very different from how you would breath for TT or any other sport.

Now, what does this have to do with TT?

I can remember a time when my breath while playing TT was horrible. And if your breath is synchronized with your stroke properly, that relaxedness Baal is talking about is much more likely to happen. In fact I would say they are not entirely separate. And in spite of having years of training in using my breath to help me relax into extremely stressful yoga posses:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170622/d98eec55d3e1ca7cd47c0bc4c1b8f1e1.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170622/fcce8fc487e525179173de36f6ee07d9.jpg

I still had no idea that my breathing was so erratic and tense while playing TT. And if you are not conscious of something like that, you cannot change it.

For me, shadow strokes are what helped me get the breath happening as well. When the ball wasn't there, I was able to focus on every detail of the stroke and it really helped certain things fall into place that, for me personally, I couldn't get to happen while focusing on contacting the ball. When I was freed from the need to focus on the ball, I could focus on many different aspects of the stroke and get them into muscle memory. A powerful exhale timed to impact is one of them.

It did take more work to get the shadow stroke fully into training. And even more to get that into match play. But I can remember the first time I heard a vocalized exhale timed to my stroke while actually hitting. And around the time that started happening is when my loops became a lot better than they had been.

So don't sell Baal's info short. He is talking about a couple of things that sound simple but really are complex to manage. And they are very important.


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UpSideDownCarl
06-22-2017, 05:15 PM
https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/cache.php?img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.pictures.zimbio.com%2Fgi%2F2014%2BSummer%2BYouth%2BOlympic%2BGames%2BDay%2B7%2BVEaQN1UXHFBx.jpg

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/fanzhendongjapanwinner0216.jpg

And it is easy to see how close to impact these photos are.


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Baal
06-22-2017, 06:24 PM
Actually, I think there are different ways to go about controlling breathing (which thereby relaxes upper body at the right time). One is the grunting you hear from people like Dima (and martial artists). A somewhat different thing is the almost serene relaxation you see from Vladi. There are other ways too, I suspect.

But here is the thing, if you are holding your breath (some people do it without knowing it), or if you face is contracted all the time (grrrrrrrr!!!!!), your swing will be constricted. So your follow through will not be loose and complete. So you won't get good weight transfer. And that means you may be well and truly screwed on the next shot, depending on where the ball goes, and in the course of a rally, you get in worse and worse shape.

So try it before laughing at the idea. Relax your face during the rally. (But don't forget to move your feet). It doesn't cost anything. You might be one of the people who is helped by this trick. (I didn't just make it up at the spur of the moment, and the idea didn't originate with me).

fais
06-22-2017, 07:32 PM
https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/cache.php?img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww1.pictures.zimbio.com%2Fgi%2F2014%2BSummer%2BYouth%2BOlympic%2BGames%2BDay%2B7%2BVEaQN1UXHFBx.jpg

https://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/forum/images/fanzhendongjapanwinner0216.jpg

I suspect IM is joking here. Actually, the fact that FZD is making these faces somewhat proves that he plays relaxed and clenches at the moment of impact.

ttmonster
06-22-2017, 07:51 PM
I think we should start a thread on the breathing technique , a few weeks back I was powerlooping in practice against block , my partner told me to let out the breath at the point of impact ... since then I have been curious about what is/ are the correct breathing techniques ... is anybody game for a discussion on that ? I can create a thread ...

Actually, I think there are different ways to go about controlling breathing (which thereby relaxes upper body at the right time). One is the grunting you hear from people like Dima (and martial artists). A somewhat different thing is the almost serene relaxation you see from Vladi. There are other ways too, I suspect.

But here is the thing, if you are holding your breath (some people do it without knowing it), or if you face is contracted all the time (grrrrrrrr!!!!!), your swing will be constricted. So your follow through will not be loose and complete. So you won't get good weight transfer. And that means you may be well and truly screwed on the next shot, depending on where the ball goes, and in the course of a rally, you get in worse and worse shape.

So try it before laughing at the idea. Relax your face during the rally. (But don't forget to move your feet). It doesn't cost anything. You might be one of the people who is helped by this trick. (I didn't just make it up at the spur of the moment, and the idea didn't originate with me).

Suga D
06-22-2017, 08:42 PM
I think we should start a thread on the breathing technique , a few weeks back I was powerlooping in practice against block , my partner told me to let out the breath at the point of impact ... since then I have been curious about what is/ are the correct breathing techniques ... is anybody game for a discussion on that ? I can create a thread ...

Nice. I think i have been talking with OSPH about this a while ago.

UpSideDownCarl
06-22-2017, 09:24 PM
I think we should start a thread on the breathing technique , a few weeks back I was powerlooping in practice against block , my partner told me to let out the breath at the point of impact ... since then I have been curious about what is/ are the correct breathing techniques ... is anybody game for a discussion on that ? I can create a thread ...

Create the thread. It will be a fun one.


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ttmonster
06-22-2017, 11:17 PM
OSPH has been suspiciously missing in action for a few days now, I think he has been finally grounded by his better half for not playing shakehand and trying to mobilize people to form a penhold cult :)

Nice. I think i have been talking with OSPH about this a while ago.

Overseer Kevin
09-28-2017, 08:13 AM
I can fix this problem with two training techniques.

1. Find the best active blocker in your club and make him better!
- Practice against the best blocker you can find repeatedly. Power the ball to him time after time and allow him to move you around. Try your best to hit the ball with the forehand as much as possible. Stay as close to the table as possible, but eventually a good blocker will make you adjust and probably take a step back every once in a while. That's good because you will need to fight to get back to the table and get into your best position.

2. Find two people and make them excellent blockers!
- I saw this exercise while watching China practice. Tried it, and it works. You stand on the forehand side against two blockers on the other side of the table. One cross table blocking back to your forehand, the other blocker stands down the line and blocks back down the line to your forehand. This exercise helps tremendously with recovery, placement, movement, power, spin. Great exercise. Start slow with non active blocks and then later add active blocks to increase you agility, and recovery.

talbon
09-28-2017, 12:31 PM
(3 months old :/ so not much point but)
I'm surprised nobody mentioned to Khang just how fast his blade seems to be. To me, it looked like you are controlling/blocking your stroke so that the ball lands on the table instead of outside, hence the impression that you don't have a consistent followthrough.

It strikes me even when you're just bouncing the ball on the table to give it to your opponent or to start the rally, and on your serves.

The advantage of your setup is that you can generate some spin almost mechanically as long as you roughly do a topspin gesture. The negative side is that
1) you have limited control in drills and probably very little control in games, and
2) you would generate more spin and speed (with tremendously higher consistency) with a good allround/offensive setup and better technique. It's going to be difficult to improve your technique if you're always thinking of not overshooting.

Overseer Kevin
09-28-2017, 02:22 PM
(3 months old :/ so not much point but)
I'm surprised nobody mentioned to Khang just how fast his blade seems to be. To me, it looked like you are controlling/blocking your stroke so that the ball lands on the table instead of outside, hence the impression that you don't have a consistent followthrough.

It strikes me even when you're just bouncing the ball on the table to give it to your opponent or to start the rally, and on your serves.

The advantage of your setup is that you can generate some spin almost mechanically as long as you roughly do a topspin gesture. The negative side is that
1) you have limited control in drills and probably very little control in games, and
2) you would generate more spin and speed (with tremendously higher consistency) with a good allround/offensive setup and better technique. It's going to be difficult to improve your technique if you're always thinking of not overshooting.

I notice you use Joola Rhyzm-P. Can you tell me a bit about the rubber. I've seen a few people using it but I haven't tried it myself. Can you compare it to tenergy 05, or Tibhar MX-P.

langel
09-28-2017, 02:37 PM
I think we should start a thread on the breathing technique , a few weeks back I was powerlooping in practice against block , my partner told me to let out the breath at the point of impact ... since then I have been curious about what is/ are the correct breathing techniques ... is anybody game for a discussion on that ? I can create a thread ...

Yes, I'd like such a thread.
In my thread about TT&Martial Arts I've mentioned that breathing techniques in both are much similar and very important and that breathing techniques are not very discussed, so I'll be glad to see some discussion on that.

talbon
09-28-2017, 05:16 PM
I notice you use Joola Rhyzm-P. Can you tell me a bit about the rubber. I've seen a few people using it but I haven't tried it myself. Can you compare it to tenergy 05, or Tibhar MX-P.
I wish I could provide good feedback but unfortunately I came to it (in 2.0mm) from tenergy 25 (in 1.8mm) when looking for a cheaper alternative. A review on tabletennisdb picked my curiosity and to my surprise I had a very similar experience to the other user.

Overall the rubber has a very pleasant feel to me. I'll stick to subjective/qualitative comments for lack of attempting a fair comparison at the time.

If you've ever touched the rubber, it's quite different from a tenergy sheet (medium-hard in comparison, and much less crumbly as well). Turns out it plays pretty much like it feels. What I noticed immediately was more feedback on strokes, along with more potential for spin and power. I could feel (and consciously control) the increased grip, spin and/or power on aggressive drives and pushes. More importantly, my feel correlated well with the player's experience on the other side (for instance, block going high and long). In comparison, my t25 sheets were a bit more dead and decidedly fall a little short on everything. Control with Rhythm-P is on par (or indeed better considering the feedback).

Because the feeling is so rewarding on good aggressive drives off the bounce, I'd say it ended up making a small difference in my active BH game and technique. For all kinds of passive or aggressive BH blocks and punches, I didn't notice much change from t25 (it's just as comfortable, a bit more power if I want).

Of course this is all highly subjective, and playstyle has much to do with it. I tend to play aggressively, close to the table, with power/spin (mostly on FH), pace (even more so on BH) and pace variation/placement (to set up my forehand or to open the table for a fast counter/punch). I'm comfortable fishing or looping from further back, but the point is that I typically don't use those highly "brushing" high-arc loops much (other than to derail the opponent's timing). I would expect players who "brush" more than "hit" into the ball to generate spin to have a very different feel altogether.

MX-P is a rubber I'm curious about but haven't given a very good try to yet. In the past I've tried tenergy 05 and it didn't click, but I think I was the one to blame. Recently I've tried bats from friends and liked their t05 just fine, without being overly impressed either (I'm probably still to blame).

UpSideDownCarl
09-28-2017, 06:25 PM
Yes, I'd like such a thread.
In my thread about TT&Martial Arts I've mentioned that breathing techniques in both are much similar and very important and that breathing techniques are not very discussed, so I'll be glad to see some discussion on that.

I guess this is what happens when old threads get woken up. Necromancy leads to things like this.

I believe there was an old thread on the subject that was an outgrowth of Monster’s comment. I will see if I can find it.


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