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Paweł Banasik
07-12-2017, 09:42 PM
This is my first post not concerning the equipment but strategy :) I have some question about the game against long pimples opponent. I hate playing against them :/ I play with normal/inverted rubber on both sides. I'm a person who likes to play a backspin/chop and attack when I have a chance with topspin... is it like that: when I Play a backspin and the chopper plays a backspin too the ball comes back to me without any spin and I can attack it with a topspin? or the situation when I play a backspin and the chopper plays block/no spin the ball comes with a backspin too and I can't attack it? There is a video about this but I'm not sure I understand his accent correctly.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EAHNaiIhnWM

UpSideDownCarl
07-13-2017, 03:37 AM
People will give lots of advice based on how they play vs pips.

All I am going to say is, you have to play against them enough to learn what you do well against them. And you need to be able to read what is coming back to you for yourself. Just having someone else tell you what is coming back won't fully help. You have to be able see it and understand it for yourself.

You should stop worrying about whether you win or lose. And understand, if you hit the ball into the net, you misread the spin. If you pop it up or hit it long, you misread the spin.

Pips players often are relying on you misreading the ball and making the mistakes. Don't worry when you mess up. Don't get frustrated. Don't care if you lost the point, the game or the match. Just keep trying to read the spin and understand what comes back and how that is based on what you give to the pips player.

Playing pips players is an opportunity to learn. The more you play then, the better you get at playing them.

There really is not short cut.


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TableTennisTom
07-13-2017, 05:42 AM
A good tactic to try (to begin with) is to push, topspin, push, topspin.

The logic is this...

You push. The long pimples player pushes back. The ball comes back as float. You topspin. The long pimples player chops back. The ball comes back with heavy backspin. At this point, you could topspin again, but you really have to lift the ball up to counter the heavy backspin. This is hard work. An easier option is to push again. Then the long pimples player pushes and the ball comes back with float, giving an easier ball to topspin.

Topspin, push, topspin, push, topspin, push.

This takes discipline and patience, but it does help you to understand what spin is on the ball.

For some other tactics, look here: http://www.tabletenniscoach.me.uk/tactics-for-beating-a-long-pimples-player/

Paweł Banasik
07-13-2017, 06:00 AM
What if I like to play a heavy backspin ball with my really soft grippy bh rubber? For example: if I play a heavy backspin and he plays a backspin...what happens
1: ....
and the second if I play a backspin and he pushes back what ball should come back?
2: ...

OldschoolPenholder
07-13-2017, 05:53 PM
What if I like to play a heavy backspin ball with my really soft grippy bh rubber? For example: if I play a heavy backspin and he plays a backspin...what happens
1: ....
and the second if I play a backspin and he pushes back what ball should come back?
2: ...

Following up on Carl's reply ...

there's one way to find out ;-)

Good luck to you!

Der_Echte
07-13-2017, 06:47 PM
It isnt so easy to expect everything struck with LPs to come back opposite to same degree... LPs can kill spin too with right grip pressure.

Some lp players take it right off the bounce soft and kill spin short, some do other stuff.

Takes a lot of playing vs a lot of different lp surfaces and players before one gets better...

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Der_Echte
07-13-2017, 06:49 PM
What if I like to play a heavy backspin ball with my really soft grippy bh rubber? For example: if I play a heavy backspin and he plays a backspin...what happens
1: ....
and the second if I play a backspin and he pushes back what ball should come back?
2: ...
LP player in that case can do any thing from kill all your spin to bump hard and give back medium pace medium topspin to anything in between... Unless their stuff is frictionless.

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NextLevel
07-13-2017, 07:05 PM
People will give lots of advice based on how they play vs pips.

All I am going to say is, you have to play against them enough to learn what you do well against them. And you need to be able to read what is coming back to you for yourself. Just having someone else tell you what is coming back won't fully help. You have to be able see it and understand it for yourself.

You should stop worrying about whether you win or lose. And understand, if you hit the ball into the net, you misread the spin. If you pop it up or hit it long, you misread the spin.

Pips players often are relying on you misreading the ball and making the mistakes. Don't worry when you mess up. Don't get frustrated. Don't care if you lost the point, the game or the match. Just keep trying to read the spin and understand what comes back and how that is based on what you give to the pips player.

Playing pips players is an opportunity to learn. The more you play then, the better you get at playing them.

There really is not short cut.


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The only thing I will add to this is that you should either practice with someone above your level or play matches with someone of your level or even better below. This is just to start. As you understand and watch better, you can play anyone. If you play matches against someone at a higher level all the time, things will happen too fast for you to figure out what is going on as you are playing the pips and the player and better players are better for a reason. If you practice with a better player, this is great as they can help you see what is happening in a controlled environment and can return your shots.
If you play matches, start with a lower rate for player so you can try things. Of they can't bring back your first loop, try to push more and see what happens but move on to a better player. You want a player who can bring back your first attack so you are forced to rally. This is where you learn the most. But you don't want the player to be so good that if you play matches, you have no clue what is going on.

UpSideDownCarl
07-13-2017, 07:27 PM
What if I like to play a heavy backspin ball with my really soft grippy bh rubber? For example: if I play a heavy backspin and he plays a backspin...what happens
1: ....
and the second if I play a backspin and he pushes back what ball should come back?
2: ...

Your question demonstrates that you would be helped by some theory on how LPs work. And that, for you, the real subject for this thread should have been: How Do Long Pimples Really Work?

The truth is, your video and TTTom did a decent job of answering the question. But you didn't understand the answer. And the answer is confusing so, it makes sense to me that you didn't understand.

Rather than trying to answer myself. I think I will point you in the direction of an excellent and very detailed answer to the entire subject of how pips work. I am not sure that anyone explains this better than DTop Spirit.

And guess what: with you in mind, DTop has written an in depth article called:

How Long Pimples Really Work

http://www.gregsttpages.com/articles3/53-articles/long-pimples/87-long-pimples-for-beginners

And if you wanted a comedy version that actually answers the question, watch this video:


https://youtu.be/jhO4K_yFhh8

What does a rubber with very little friction do. And how can a skilled pips player make it more complicated than the simple answers.



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Ilia Minkin
07-13-2017, 08:04 PM
Another tactics is to hit flat against pips: you give no spin to reverse, then get nothing back so you can hit again and again.

yogi_bear
07-14-2017, 12:23 AM
just practice serving underspin against an lp player and then learn to attack topspin or no spin when it comes back. that is a good way to start on how to learn to attack against LP. you would need to adjust on how hard you would brush the ball.

Paweł Banasik
07-14-2017, 08:23 AM
Great video. I watched it many times carefully and I'll read the article.

TTHopeful
07-14-2017, 01:01 PM
Push the ball into the long pimples so it comes back as float. Then attack hard!

Brs
07-14-2017, 01:42 PM
To answer your actual question most times if the pups player pushes to you - you cannot push it back. The ball will pop up and he will smash it.

It is a little more complicated because different LP rubbers are very different in how much spin of their own they can create, and how much they can reverse. But basically, when they push it is not enough backspin for you to push back, and could actually be topspin.

Somebody, maybe der, said if your shot goes bad then you misread their spin. That's true, and it's why you should play pips opponents as often as you can, because you will learn more and faster to read spin than playing against inverted all the time.

suds79
07-14-2017, 05:04 PM
just practice serving underspin against an lp player and then learn to attack topspin or no spin when it comes back. that is a good way to start on how to learn to attack against LP. you would need to adjust on how hard you would brush the ball.

I use to play with LPs and IMO there are different camps of type of LP players. Some of them largely just stick it out there and kinda block the ball. For these people, yes do that strategy.

Then there are some LP players who have practiced attacking backspin serves with their LPs which is very easy. These shots typically have more pace & placement but yes the same concept applies that it's topspin going back to them.

Because I didn't want to be too predictable as i saw people started to expect topspin going back to them, i because to aggressively jab at the ball with a pushing motion which would essentially deaden the ball and/or produce weird balls. Some people really struggled with this variation when they were always expecting topspin.

To the OP.

I don't play LPs anymore but my training partner who got a lot of practice vs me (kinda what NL was suggesting. practice a lot vs it). He would simply soft loop ball after ball getting them in while i chop blocked.

So it would be
me - chop block
him - soft loop (ie - high arching loop that clears the net easy and is actually really spiny. Key is this should be a shot you can hit in 9 times out of 10)
me - chop block with a ton of topspin coming in.

I eventually adapted thinking if there's this high arching topspin ball coming over, i need to step around that ball and attack it. Although you have to really close down on the angle because the soft spiny loop is easy to kick long.

Anyways, like I said, i don't play LPs anymore. But if I were you? I'd practice generating my own spin and seeing how many balls vs backspin you can loop in safely over & over. If the chopper pops one up too high? Then you go for a power loop. ie - a put away shot.

Xylit
07-14-2017, 05:56 PM
Additionally to the things that were already posted I find it very effective to play with heavy underspin into the pips side. There are a lot of long pips players, even above USATT >2000, that have extreme difficulties dealing with heavy underspin. Against long pips players I make half of the points by attacking and the other half of the points by simply chopping everything back with huge amounts of backspin into his pips. Using a lot of wrist action hides a good amount of spin, therefore a lot of my opponent's balls land in the net. Chopping a no-spin or even light topspin ball above the table is not easy though and definitely advanced stuff. Another thing that makes this effective against a lot of defenders could be that they simply are not used to this.

Paweł Banasik
07-14-2017, 08:18 PM
Is underspin the same as backspin? I see that the strategy of playing against LP is much more complicated than I've thought. It's a pity I don't have a regular LP opponent to practise against and I only meet them at the tournaments.

Xylit
07-14-2017, 08:21 PM
Yes I meant backspin. "Underspin" coming from the German "Unterschnitt", sorry about that :p

Ilia Minkin
07-14-2017, 08:36 PM
Additionally to the things that were already posted I find it very effective to play with heavy underspin into the pips side. There are a lot of long pips players, even above USATT >2000, that have extreme difficulties dealing with heavy underspin. Against long pips players I make half of the points by attacking and the other half of the points by simply chopping everything back with huge amounts of backspin into his pips. Using a lot of wrist action hides a good amount of spin, therefore a lot of my opponent's balls land in the net. Chopping a no-spin or even light topspin ball above the table is not easy though and definitely advanced stuff. Another thing that makes this effective against a lot of defenders could be that they simply are not used to this.

That makes sense, also on the serve. Some people assume that LP rubber is like magic wand for service return, but it is not. So serving super heavy short backspin occasionally can give free points.

Paweł Banasik
07-14-2017, 09:20 PM
Just finished reading the article. Great one.. have to learn the patters of how the ball behaves when returning spin. Can you give me links to other must- read articles not only about long pimples? Some articles you read many years ago and the clues from them you can't forget :)

yuri.saldon
07-14-2017, 09:52 PM
Another thing to note is LP with sponge plays differently than LP OX (without sponge). The last one invert more

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shinshiro
07-14-2017, 10:01 PM
Additionally to the things that were already posted I find it very effective to play with heavy underspin into the pips side. There are a lot of long pips players, even above USATT >2000, that have extreme difficulties dealing with heavy underspin. Against long pips players I make half of the points by attacking and the other half of the points by simply chopping everything back with huge amounts of backspin into his pips. Using a lot of wrist action hides a good amount of spin, therefore a lot of my opponent's balls land in the net. Chopping a no-spin or even light topspin ball above the table is not easy though and definitely advanced stuff. Another thing that makes this effective against a lot of defenders could be that they simply are not used to this.

From the short time I played with LP, I always found difficult to return backspin doing push. It is way easier to push with inverted rubbers than with LP, at least for me.

UpSideDownCarl
07-14-2017, 11:30 PM
Yes I meant backspin. "Underspin" coming from the German "Unterschnitt", sorry about that :p

Underspin and backspin are both fine terms. They both work in English.


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Loopadoop
07-14-2017, 11:58 PM
From the short time I played with LP, I always found difficult to return backspin doing push. It is way easier to push with inverted rubbers than with LP, at least for me.

For a good long pips player, any type of spin generated from inverted rubber, is their friend.

Loopadoop
07-15-2017, 12:06 AM
Additionally to the things that were already posted I find it very effective to play with heavy underspin into the pips side. There are a lot of long pips players, even above USATT >2000, that have extreme difficulties dealing with heavy underspin. Against long pips players I make half of the points by attacking and the other half of the points by simply chopping everything back with huge amounts of backspin into his pips. Using a lot of wrist action hides a good amount of spin, therefore a lot of my opponent's balls land in the net. Chopping a no-spin or even light topspin ball above the table is not easy though and definitely advanced stuff. Another thing that makes this effective against a lot of defenders could be that they simply are not used to this.

Using long pips, I don't have problem with heavy inverted backspin.

jamesmith
07-15-2017, 04:30 AM
The problem is nowadays a lot of Pimple players do not push or chop back, they return the ball on the table, just like a quick push or just lift the ball up very fast, and if you push or chop they will atack, and I don,t know what spin they make when they block. When I serve or when I push they lift the ball up a little , just like a little block.

ade14212
07-15-2017, 06:40 AM
The problem is nowadays a lot of Pimple players do not push or chop back, they return the ball on the table, just like a quick push or just lift the ball up very fast, and if you push or chop they will atack, and I don,t know what spin they make when they block. When I serve or when I push they lift the ball up a little , just like a little block.

Most of the time, the ball just floats. Just loop it well, brush the top of the ball and you will do fine.

Or let push the ball to his forehand and let him loop. You know what you should do next, counterloop to their forehand. That is if you are confident with your counterlooping skill.

Der_Echte
07-15-2017, 06:45 AM
Yes I meant backspin. "Underspin" coming from the German "Unterschnitt", sorry about that :p

Xylit, you are fine. English speaking tt crowd uses both terms. However, German speakers in live English often call it DOWN spin, which is something English speakers understand, but do not say in spoken tt language. W. Schlager is saying it in his vids. Well, if WS says it, then it should be added to the TT English, no?

tropical
07-15-2017, 08:13 PM
I play long pips with sponge and no sponge. I am not afraid of heavy backspin. With LP+sponge I can attack heavy spin very easy. With OX I side swipe it. Keep in mind regardless of what spin LP can return it doesn't have much spin, except LP chopping which makes the ball comes back extremely heavy. So if you have a good BH or FH technique you can attack with looping rather easily. I find I beat 1900 level and below rather easy as they do not have consistent 2 wing looping. But 2100+ I got killed! Between 1900-2100 more wins versus <2000, and more loss with >2000.
You have to develop good BH/FH attack/defense either by looping/smashing/blocking/pushing/chopping/etc and serve/service return. Footwork is extremely important. It means you must improve your level in general then you will be able to deal with many different styles not just long pips alone.

Der_Echte
07-15-2017, 11:09 PM
tropical needs to come to next San Jose Mission...

tropical
07-16-2017, 02:49 PM
tropical needs to come to next San Jose Mission...

Sure one day I may drop by Swan but Swan is not my favorite place as tables are limited. I will need to beat all you guys before I get too old to boast .. ha ha..

UpSideDownCarl
07-16-2017, 02:59 PM
tropical needs to come to next San Jose Mission...


Sure one day I may drop by Swan but Swan is not my favorite place as tables are limited. I will need to beat all you guys before I get too old to boast .. ha ha..

Der, sounds like you should just arrange a meetup and let tropical choose the location. This way, if he bags out, we all know he is ducking you. [emoji2]


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tropical
07-16-2017, 04:03 PM
Ha ha .. today I am available from 2 to 3 at Top spin. Anyone interested in playing me can come to the club. You will know you are lucky to play a 60 y/o guy not 40 or 30 ha ha .. when I used to play inverted.

yogi_bear
07-17-2017, 01:19 AM
this is a good video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAHNaiIhnWM

UpSideDownCarl
07-17-2017, 03:18 AM
this is a good video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAHNaiIhnWM

Yogi, sometimes I wonder if you are joking around or if you just are not paying attention. That is the video the OP posted in the OP.

hahahahaha. That is too funny. :)

Loopadoop
07-17-2017, 05:26 AM
Video has simple strategy for winning. Why doesn't everyone use it ?

UpSideDownCarl
07-17-2017, 06:33 AM
Video has simple strategy for winning. Why doesn't everyone use it ?

One reason, is, if you give a decent pips player backspin, you give them a free attack. When you give LP backspin, they easily attack it if they are a decent pips player. They don't have to if you show that you continually mess up on the float balls. But they can. And the attacks are weird.

Loopadoop
07-17-2017, 08:22 AM
One reason, is, if you give a decent pips player backspin, you give them a free attack. When you give LP backspin, they easily attack it if they are a decent pips player. They don't have to if you show that you continually mess up on the float balls. But they can. And the attacks are weird.

Dumb Coaching video ?

stknovska
07-17-2017, 08:43 AM
Does anyone know, is Ruwen Filus still playing with the same equipment ? (Racket Joo Se Hyuk, FH Rubber Tenergy 05, BH Rubber Feint Long III)

NextLevel
07-17-2017, 03:23 PM
Dumb Coaching video ?

It is addressed to the level of player who is asking about the problem. You are asking why everyone doesn't do it which is a different question with a different answer.

OldschoolPenholder
07-17-2017, 08:28 PM
Xylit, you are fine. English speaking tt crowd uses both terms. However, German speakers in live English often call it DOWN spin, which is something English speakers understand, but do not say in spoken tt language. W. Schlager is saying it in his vids. Well, if WS says it, then it should be added to the TT English, no?

Chinese call it down spin also.

yogi_bear
07-18-2017, 12:28 AM
Yogi, sometimes I wonder if you are joking around or if you just are not paying attention. That is the video the OP posted in the OP.

hahahahaha. That is too funny. :)

I did not see his link LOL.

yogi_bear
07-18-2017, 12:33 AM
got a simpler video. this is between pushblocker and schlager playing in a garage. you can learn lots of things from what schlager is doing but the principle is still the same. he brushes the ball and he does a simple no spin or underspin serve then he waits for the ball and just spins it. Yes he is a world champ but what he is doing in the video is very simplified and toned down that even low level players can learn from it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbjcyS8Mmys

Paweł Banasik
07-18-2017, 05:55 AM
I'm starting to get the idea how to manage those players. Still need practice in playing against them. I don't understand this US ranking points? Is it possible to tell if for example you are 500 US rating player or 1000, 1300, 1500, 1800 or 2000 without being in the rating? Only by telling what skills you should have to be that rated? Maybe this should be a new thread.

tropical
07-18-2017, 06:23 AM
You must play tournament to be rated correctly. Some folks I talk to say:" I guess I beat Mr. X who is rated 1900 so I must be 2000 or more." This is quite wrong. You must play with different styles, with some wins/losses then your rating thus is correctly granted. By the way you ask I am guessing you are probably around 1400 to 1500 level in US.

dony71
04-11-2018, 10:48 PM
@tropical : are u in bay area? where do you play usually?

Loopadoop
04-12-2018, 03:11 AM
It is addressed to the level of player who is asking about the problem. You are asking why everyone doesn't do it which is a different question with a different answer.

The Question, what is a good strategy to beat long pips players, didn't specify the level of players. I don't the video was sound advice, especially with his demonstration.

NextLevel
04-12-2018, 03:37 AM
The Question, what is a good strategy to beat long pips players, didn't specify the level of players. I don't the video was sound advice, especially with his demonstration.

Not sure what your point is. You didn't even write a coherent post. Then you come back to a post 2 years later to do what? Advanced players don't ask such questions, stop acting like they do. They have enough experience to know what they prefer to do even as long as they have practiced against pips.

The video is good for beginning players. Advanced players will adopt a variety of strategies. Strategic advice is only as good as the technical ability of the player to implement it. Same way the video is good for someone playing at a basic level but advanced players will tend to attack sitting balls with higher quality so you may be more reluctant to push to them or give them light topspin. The devil in TT is often in details. The video is good for a beginner but an advanced player will often tailor his understanding of spin and his strengths to devise a more specific and opponent appropriate strategy.

Loopadoop
04-12-2018, 03:52 AM
Not sure what your point is. You didn't even write a coherent post. Then you come back to a post 2 years later to do what? Advanced players don't ask such questions, stop acting like they do. They have enough experience to know what they prefer to do even as long as they have practiced against pips.

The video is good for beginning players. Advanced players will adopt a variety of strategies. Strategic advice is only as good as the technical ability of the player to implement it. Same way the video is good for someone playing at a basic level but advanced players will tend to attack sitting balls with higher quality so you may be more reluctant to push to them or give them light topspin. The devil in TT is often in details. The video is good for a beginner but an advanced player will often tailor his understanding of spin and his strengths to devise a more specific and opponent appropriate strategy.

FYI your post was not 2 years ago, dated 7/17/17, less than a year, the thread is still active. We have a difference of opinion.