Does Ma Long have an old school style?

He has a little different style, but I wouldn't call it old-school. Mizutani is old-school? What does mean old-school?

It all depends on how you define old school, but it seems that yes, Ma Long is more forehand dominant in his overall play than ZJK or FZD, and is also more likely to push more balls back than FZD (ZJK not so much), but is diverse enough to play almost any style.

Dominikk85 said:

I'm not an expert but could you say he has a more old school style than Zhang Jike or Fan?

He can of course attack with his backhand but his returns are pushed more often than the the other two. His backhand is often blocked or moderately spun and generally he prefers the FH.

Almost more like waldner in that regard albeit of course with more power.

Am I off base here?

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Ma Long seems to be able to do pretty much anything to anything (be it animal, vegetable or mineral), but also seems to choose to apply some wisdom in choosing what to do when. Perhaps the all-out attack isn't the end-all, be-all solution to all things pong for him.

Sometimes he chooses to be the first aggressor, BH and FH; sometimes he seems to hold back and wait for the opponent's initiative, to take over the attack and feed off it. He's a versatile, tactical player, showing ever more smarts as time progresses. In that, he's like Waldner (and Samsonov, and so on) of course, but I don't think that's old skool in and by itself.

I think FZD are BH oriented players with good FHs and ML is an FH oriented player with a good BH.

I think ML has also found that, in playing FZD, and when he was at the top of his game ZJK by letting them open first and then using their opening for extra power on his counter attack, he had a better chance of punishing them for how early they take the offensive.

This has proved quite effective against FZD. When ZJK was at the top of his game, ML had not yet fully developed this. And ZJK sometimes did a decent job of countering ML's openings to take control of points or win them.

Also, ZJK's BH opening loop is much more varied than FZD's. FZD's openings are all rockets with similar spin. ML does not seem to have much trouble teeing-off on those even when he gets there a little late.

Whereas, ZJK's BH openings, some are slow, some are fast, some have moderate spin. Some have massive spin. When he sees an opponent adjust to massive spin or pace, he changes things up. So, if you watch some of the closer matches from when ZJK was still playing well, you will see ML try and counter ZJK's opening and hit many long and many into the net. There is a reason for those misses.

But I have this feeling ZJK will not recapture his form from 2012.

And I would say that right now ML is about as complete as a player can be.

[Edit: or note on the edits: I am not sure how this posted before I was even half finished. But now it says what I meant to say.]

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not sure if old school but I always saw big similarities with waldner.
he's like a waldner with improved backhand.

they are both quite speculative, trying to get the other guy to attack first and then counter attack.

iamme said:

not sure if old school but I always saw big similarities with waldner.
he's like a waldner with improved backhand.

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We're dissing JO's BH now?

Dominikk85 said:

With old school I meant that he is not really radically modern. He is of course an aggressive player with a lot of power and technical versatility and he can do the modern strokes like a flick backhand return but he doesn't do it a lot.

His game is more "classic" (as in modern classic of course not 30 years ago but more like in the 2000s or so) in that he plays a lot of pushes in the short game and attacks more with the forehand than doing a two winged attack albeit he is capable of doing it.

He is very smart in that he often tries to play the highest percentage shot rather than trying to be too fancy but if needed he can play the fancy shot too.

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ML is in the mold of Kong Linghui and Wang Liqin in that he is a FH dominant player. As noted, he could use his BH to open more if he wanted to. But he is definitely an FH dominant player.

And, particularly against FZD, ML has found that letting those guys open and countering their opening gives him more of an advantage because he catches them off balance and uses their power against them.

The fact that ML is one of the most amazing counter-loopers and the fact that he eats FZD's BH flips for breakfast means, he can let him open first and use that as a strategy.

Is there anyone else who can do that to FZD? Not that I have seen. But this also makes it much more effective when ML does open first. And he does that with FH or BH, as well as anyone. He just picks his spots.


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UpSideDownCarl said:

ML is in the mold of Kong Linghui and Wang Liqin in that he is a FH dominant player. As noted, he could use his BH to open more if he wanted to. But he is definitely an FH dominant player.

And, particularly against FZD, ML has found that letting those guys open and countering their opening gives him more of an advantage because he catches them off balance and uses their power against them.

The fact that ML is one of the most amazing counter-loopers and the fact that he eats FZD's BH flips for breakfast means, he can let him open first and use that as a strategy.

Is there anyone else who can do that to FZD? Not that I have seen. But this also makes it much more effective when ML does open first. And he does that with FH or BH, as well as anyone. He just picks his spots.


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It might sound funny but I never thought of KLH as a forehand dominant player.

Dominikk85 said:

With old school I meant that he is not really radically modern. He is of course an aggressive player with a lot of power and technical versatility and he can do the modern strokes like a flick backhand return but he doesn't do it a lot.

His game is more "classic" (as in modern classic of course not 30 years ago but more like in the 2000s or so) in that he plays a lot of pushes in the short game and attacks more with the forehand than doing a two winged attack albeit he is capable of doing it.

He is very smart in that he often tries to play the highest percentage shot rather than trying to be too fancy but if needed he can play the fancy shot too.

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Take a look at the match analysis between FZD and ML. FZD took the initiative five times more than ML. Most of these were BH flicks. ML performed only 5 BH flicks, FZD 75. This is the main point why you see ML more old school.
I counted the BH flicks, topspins and blocks (lucky winners aren't there): ML had 79% success, FZD 71%. This means ML has a good backhand, there difference is in the number of BH flicks. Both of them performed 76 BH topspins and ML made 9 more BH block than FZD. But we have to take into consideration that against FZD's vicious loops blocking is more effective than countertopspin.

NextLevel said:

It might sound funny but I never thought of KLH as a forehand dominant player.

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Nor did I. He liked to play safe and spinny loops and blocks from both sides. Killer shots only on easy balls.

I agree with NextLevel on this ... I always felt that Zhang Jike was a KLH 2.0 ... the thing is you can argue both ways , because all these players are idols for ZJK and Ma LOng and the CNT coaches are constantly mixing things up to create the most perfect player ... I am not sure but you might have heard LGL complain after Miu Hirano's wins that CNT has always aspired to make a female player who can play like the men but has never been able to achieve that , and after that CNT released the Kraken in the form of Sun Yingsha ...

now, coming back to this whole debate , there are a couple of more aspects that are getting overlooked :

1. Understanding of spin : LGL famously said that Ma Long understands a couple of spins better than ZJK , hence he was a more complete player even when ZJK was beating him mentally in the Grand Slams ....
2. Footwork : Even tough ZJK was supposed to be the nextgen footwork , he was not able to sustain it for long time due to his injuries , whether we agree on that or not is a different question. Ma Long has consistently maintained and improved his footwork and this has given him more options to adapt and grow his game ... case in point he was quickest in the CNT to adapt to the plastic ball change and could transition from his mid distance looping game to a player who can play almost as effectively from close to the table ... now whether he pushes more than others or not , of course , he does because he can get away with it , he has a stronger defensive game than others , even though ZJK famously had the best BH block , he is week when defending away from the table, where Ma Long may be second only to Xu Xin , and neither , XX nor ZJK have consisten BH topspin away from the table , of course , again at that level , don't start asking me how my BH topspin away from the table is

NextLevel said:

It might sound funny but I never thought of KLH as a forehand dominant player.

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no, he is not old school.

during the last 15 years or so we have seen an influx of players that use backhand flick as their main return for short serves. this created the myth that the backhand oriented game is more modern and/or superior to a forehand oriented game. more modern - perhaps it was for a time. but the truth is people have forgotten about the effectiveness of the forehand flick and the japanese have rediscovered it lately to great effect, using both the backhand flick that has been vastly improved over the last years and combining it with a good forehand flick. using both the forehand and the backhand for service returns is what i would now consider modern.

being one dimensional is what is old school. for example: he zhi wen short pips hitting style is old school, but mattias karlsson style is modern because he combines it with a very aggressive backhand top spin.

being versatile and effective is what is modern, and ma long is probably the most versatile and effective player out there.

Dominikk85 said:

Wasn't KLH modelled after the swedish players? I read somewhere he was sent to sweden to learn the style of waldner and maybe also persson.

Btw was KLH the first notable shakehand player of china? It seems like his success started the end of penhold in china.

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Cai Zhenhua was a shakehander. But you really mean two winfed looper and while there were a few others who didnt win WTTC, yes, KLH and WLQ were leaders of a new school.

"ZJK was beating him mentally in the Grand Slams ...." Do you mean 2014 WC ZJK 4:3 ML and 2016 OG ML 4:0 ZJK specifically? They met only twice in GS tournaments and h2h is 1-1, unlike h2h of ZJK vs WH 4-1 and h2h of WH vs ML 3-0 in GS tournaments. I will agree that ZJK beat WH mentally in the GSs (FYI, Xian Zhan said after London OG that WH's techniques were superior to ZJK's) and WH beat ML mentally in GSs, but this does not equal to ZJK beating ML mentally in GSs.

"he was quickest in the CNT to adapt to the plastic ball change" Funny that the Chinese news and Chinese TT forum in 2014 said just the opposite. ML was thought to be finished because of the plastic ball which spins less than celluloid ball. So did the ABS ball change early this year: less spins and in the favor of players with more power (FZD, LJK according to LGL and Wu Jingping said FZD adapted to ABS the best). ML was able to adapt to the new ball after some time and win, especially against the players who are supposed to be better with the new balls; which can be explained by his versatility and technical/tactical reservoir.

Back to the topic, ML style is sort of old-school (old-school is not inferior IMO), simply because he started to play internationally in an era before the glue ban and when FH was almost everything. Before the glue ban, ML's teammates and major rivals in CNT were WLQ, M Lin, WH and CQ. He is the only player left on CNT who went through two device changes (ZJK and XX shined in the international stage after the glue ban). His style has changed some during the years after the glue ban and ball change but it is almost impossible for him to change too much or play like a BH-oriented player. According to LGL, in the era of plastic ball, BH makes the opportunities and FH makes the points. I think it makes a lot of sense when watching ML and FZD's games.

ttmonster said:

I agree with NextLevel on this ... I always felt that Zhang Jike was a KLH 2.0 ... the thing is you can argue both ways , because all these players are idols for ZJK and Ma LOng and the CNT coaches are constantly mixing things up to create the most perfect player ... I am not sure but you might have heard LGL complain after Miu Hirano's wins that CNT has always aspired to make a female player who can play like the men but has never been able to achieve that , and after that CNT released the Kraken in the form of Sun Yingsha ...

now, coming back to this whole debate , there are a couple of more aspects that are getting overlooked :

1. Understanding of spin : LGL famously said that Ma Long understands a couple of spins better than ZJK , hence he was a more complete player even when ZJK was beating him mentally in the Grand Slams ....
2. Footwork : Even tough ZJK was supposed to be the nextgen footwork , he was not able to sustain it for long time due to his injuries , whether we agree on that or not is a different question. Ma Long has consistently maintained and improved his footwork and this has given him more options to adapt and grow his game ... case in point he was quickest in the CNT to adapt to the plastic ball change and could transition from his mid distance looping game to a player who can play almost as effectively from close to the table ... now whether he pushes more than others or not , of course , he does because he can get away with it , he has a stronger defensive game than others , even though ZJK famously had the best BH block , he is week when defending away from the table, where Ma Long may be second only to Xu Xin , and neither , XX nor ZJK have consisten BH topspin away from the table , of course , again at that level , don't start asking me how my BH topspin away from the table is

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rain , ZJK was beating him mentally meaning ZJK did not even have to play him in finals because he was losing earlier to Wang Hao who he had no business losing to given that Ma Long made it to the CNT earlier than ZJK and had considerably more international exposure ...

I don't know why CNT forums were saying what you are saying that plastic ball affected Ma Long more , LGL has admitted elsewhere that Ma Long uses incoming spin and power more and we all know ZJK takes the ball later and creates his own spin , so I don't feel this argument makes a lot of sense , normally people who generate their own spin would be affected more if the spin becomes less ...

and I don't think that Ma Long is old school , its a matter of improving on the last generation and both ZJK and Ma Long has done that and then Fan Zhendong has built on top of that ... its also the CNT coaches following the same philosophy and showing an incremental evolution from one generation to the next ...

we can argue all we like but the most crucial thing is to keep an unbalanced view of things ... you have to look at it from a neutral point otherwise there are enough data points to shore up support for a conclusion that is premeditated ... you have to also use own understanding of the game to tell which argument makes sense and which does not , just quoting other people to support a point of view , well you will always find enough people on either side of the aisle ...

rainneverever said:

"ZJK was beating him mentally in the Grand Slams ...." Do you mean 2014 WC ZJK 4:3 ML and 2016 OG ML 4:0 ZJK specifically? They met only twice in GS tournaments and h2h is 1-1, unlike h2h of ZJK vs WH 4-1 and h2h of WH vs ML 3-0 in GS tournaments. I will agree that ZJK beat WH mentally in the GSs (FYI, Xian Zhan said after London OG that WH's techniques were superior to ZJK's) and WH beat ML mentally in GSs, but this does not equal to ZJK beating ML mentally in GSs.

"he was quickest in the CNT to adapt to the plastic ball change" Funny that the Chinese news and Chinese TT forum in 2014 said just the opposite. ML was thought to be finished because of the plastic ball which spins less than celluloid ball. So did the ABS ball change early this year: less spins and in the favor of players with more power (FZD, LJK according to LGL and Wu Jingping said FZD adapted to ABS the best). ML was able to adapt to the new ball after some time and win, especially against the players who are supposed to be better with the new balls; which can be explained by his versatility and technical/tactical reservoir.

Back to the topic, ML style is sort of old-school (old-school is not inferior IMO), simply because he started to play internationally in an era before the glue ban and when FH was almost everything. Before the glue ban, ML's teammates and major rivals in CNT were WLQ, M Lin, WH and CQ. He is the only player left on CNT who went through two device changes (ZJK and XX shined in the international stage after the glue ban). His style has changed some during the years after the glue ban and ball change but it is almost impossible for him to change too much or play like a BH-oriented player. According to LGL, in the era of plastic ball, BH makes the opportunities and FH makes the points. I think it makes a lot of sense when watching ML and FZD's games.

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Nice question from the OP.

I am not sure I would consider it old school vs new school. Instead I would say that throughout eras there has been more than one way to be great.

Among the great Chinese shake hands players of the last couple decades, consider Kong Linghui, who was a lot more like FZD and ZJK are now, even as WLQ was more like Ma Long is now. (And there is simply no question whatsoever that all of these players are great, even if some people prefer one over the other).

One thing to keep in mind about Ma Long is he does a lot of stuff that is subtle, the more I watch him the more I pay attention to that stuff. His defense from relatively close to the table is insanely good, especially on his BH side (actually I would say the best I have ever seen). He can do some strange chop blocks on occasion. He may not make as many intense banana flick returns but on the other hand he makes very very few serve return errors and he is also less predictable.